38 S&W case from 9mm parabellum

[Traffer]

I had a crazy idea to put rims on 9MM cases so I could load them for my old solid frame S&W revolver.
The 9mm cases fit in the chamber very nicely so I figured that if a rim could somehow be attached, the cases would be good to go. (I know I can buy cases but I am cheap and like a challenge)
So I googled up adding rims to rimless cases and to my utter surprise I found that it can be done...
This is pure genius...
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/44-06_rimmed_douglas.html

[17nut]

Why not trim 38SPL and be done with it?
The other route seems to like you want to bend over a dollar to pick up a dime.

[smkummer]

17 nut hit the nail on the head. Yep, 38 special trimmed will work fine. You may also know that a 9mm Federal rimmed cartridge was marketed for a short while BUT it fit into the chambers of some weak 38 S&W top breaks and was quickly discontinued.

If your patient, you will find correct 38 S&W stamped amounts of brass and cartridges over time at gun shows and other places like I did, now I have more than enough. Good luck

[LIMPINGJ]

Starline has 38S&W in stock, 500 for $90.00.

[Outpost75]

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

232167<<<For this.

[pistonwolf]

Good info on forgotten weapons site about this caliber. https://www.forgottenweapons.com/38-sw-the-other-38/

[Outpost75]

If you don't cast your own load 148 HBWC with 2.5 grains of Bullseye seated to 1.20" overall cartridge length. The hollow base expands to fill the larger grooves and ballistics are like a .38 Special wadcutter. Will shoot to the fixed sights of the old guns and more effective than factory LRN.

[Cast_outlaw]

Don’t they make a rimed 9x19 case

[Budzilla 19]

Just be diligent about looking for brass, It’s out there for sure. I looked for a while, gave up, then found dies brass and a few loaded rounds, all in one stop!! Good luck to ya.

[Outpost75]

.38 S&W brass is very common on auction sites like GunBroker.

Don't be afraid to use the copper cases used for .38 S&W Blanks and industrial power loads.

While these have large flash holes, .38 S&W factory loads don't exceed about 16,000 psi and standard pressure loads being mild, there are no issues in using the copper, large flash hole cases for this cartridge.

A charge of 2.5 grains of Bullseye with the Accurate 36-155D bullet is an accurate and efficient load for solid-frame .38 S&W revolvers, such as the Colt Police Positive and WW2 S&W ictory models. Typical 4" barrel revolver velocity is about 720 fps, which is just a wee bit warmer than factory 146-grainers, which run 650-680 fps.

Pressure is 16,600 psi (Oehler M43). Thanks to Larry Gibson for the pressure test data.

232175232176232177

[DonMountain]

I have been reloading for a 38 S&W for years and all of my older pistols for this cartridge require projectiles sized to 0.363" or 0.364" to shoot with any accuracy. And I agree with all the others that Starline 38 S&W brass makes the best loaded ammo for these old pistols. This proposal sounds like a person wanting to create 30-06 ammo from 300 H&H MAG just for the exercise. Most of the time its just more efficient when loading for a particular cartridge to just buy the easily available components like brass, primers, powders and projectile molds to have a reasonable chance of making something work.

[Billthomas]

Thanks for the article in G&A, time to revisit some projects with a different approach. bt

[turtlezx]

i use a pipe cutter to quickly cut just short of correct length then trim

[vagrantviking]

Any chance moon clips are available?

Best is to find the right brass though. Can powder coat regular 38 bullets to bump up the diameter if required. Hollow base slugs can work but can be a little finicky to get working properly.

[Traffer]

Any chance moon clips are available?

Best is to find the right brass though. Can powder coat regular 38 bullets to bump up the diameter if required. Hollow base slugs can work but can be a little finicky to get working properly.
I have considered moon clips. After just now "going through" the gun, I see that indeed. moon clips would seem to have enough room without modding the cylinder. I "may" give them a try at some point.

[2152hq]

Thanks for posting the link
A very useful method for making up some of the odd ones that seem to surface once in a while and need to be shot.
..and some of us just like tinkering with stuff like this. It's interesting

[BAGTIC]

Why not buy new Star-Line 38 S&W brass? It is not expensive and will be better than anything you can make at home.

[uscra112]

Say, Outpost75.......do you have any proven loads for the .38-200? (which for the peanut gallery is the British .38 S&W case with a heavy bullet, meant for the wartime Webley revolver.) I'm using 1.6 of Bullseye, for a somewhat anemic 600 fps. Bullet from an NOE mould, cast almost dead soft, about 40:1.

[crankycalico]

it can be done, but only in one easily done way.

Youll need to take shim stock of the correct thickness, make doughnuts of the right outside and indise diameter, then cut a slot in one side so a 9mm case can slide in, then youll have to counter bore the doughnut ring on one side so it fits into the extractor groove and keeps the rim at the right distance from the cylinder face.

Conversely you can make TWO doughnuts, a thin one on the bottom that will be the right thickness and inner diameter to fit the 9mm extractor groove.

But seriously, no point. It would be better time spent finding a "super low cost" revolver in 38 special, and cutting down a rifle case like a 30-30 to have the right length and shape, and rim diameter and loading that up

[Traffer]

I find that people ridicule ideas out of envy. I would rather have crazy ideas than ridicule those who do.

[uscra112]

Outpost75 has no cause to be envious of anybody. He's forgotten more than all of us put together ever knew.

Radical reformation of brass for a legitimate purpose is laudable. People make shells for early Maynards because there is NO parent brass whatsoever and never will be. I made .22 Lovell from .223 for some whiles for the same reason, until (for a few years) we had Jamison/Captech making it's parent case. Even $150 a hundred beat the hours of work I was putting in to make just 20, and I for one gladly paid it.

But brainstorming how to make .38 S&W from 9mm, when high quality new .38 brass is for sale from Starline is an utter waste of neuronic energy. Save it for something worthwhile. That's not ridicule; it's just common sense.

[reddog81]

There's lots of stuff that can be done, however that doesn't mean it's a good idea. 38 S&W from 9x19 cases falls squarely into that category.

[one-eyed fat man]

A pre-Victory British Service Revolver, the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" stamp on the top strap indicates it was a Lend-Lease gun.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=282348&amp;d=1493947864

NEI #169a bullet over 2.0 grains of Bullseye, reputedly a duplicate of the .38-200 service load. A tad high with a 6 o'clock hold but nicely centered.

https://www.coltforum.com/forums/members/8924-albums690-picture606609.jpg

[country gent]

I believe that I would section one of each case length wise, 38 S&W and 9mm. compare and measure internal webs and wall thicknesses before getting to involved. Another thing is to measure water capacity between the 2 and compare. 9mm being a more modern case may be thicker case walls with a heavier taper to them than 38 S&W. This would further reduce case capacity in an already small case. Some of the heavier bullets produce a ring or bulge in 9mm brass due to the internal taper.

Adding a rim can get tricky and be labor intensive. In the surface it doesn't sound like a lot. but I'm not sure you could just solder it on since this would anneal the case head. You could possibly turn head down (original rim plus extractor groove to a straight surface make a rim that was "thick" and a .002-.003 press fit. then face to true and turn to dia on the case. Some cartridge conversions can be very intensive as to labor and set up.

Moon clips are an interesting concept and may work. The ring could be machined from the correct thickness of spring shim stock ( not cheap) . OD would be just under cylinder dia. 6 holes on cylinders chambers center line. then center bored to leave a little over a half hole so cases snap in and are held. Most moon clips are made with a press and stamping die.

A quick option for use if capacities are right is a bag of E clips to fit on the 9mm cases in the extractor groove in the right thickness, or to thick and machined to thickness. Here a set of pliers would need to be made to remove and install the clops for loading. A rid to fit in case and a jaw to hold clip to remove or put on. This might be your best option for what you want to do.

[Traffer]

The instructions on the link show how to actually swage a rim onto a rimless case. That is what I thought was pure genius. It would crush a ring of brass so that the inside diameter would constrict to the outer diameter of the extraction groove. I also thought it was interesting that the adding of a rim to a 3006 case allowed the mouth of the 3006 to be opened to where there was no shoulder at all. Since the case now chambered on the rim and not the shoulder, it allowed the case to taken up to a 44 caliber which I believe is a straight walled case.
I believe you are correct in thinking that the 9mm is probably thicker brass especially in the head and web. Since these old guns were designed for black powder the capacity is far greater than necessary. So I believe it would be an advantage to have a thicker web making it a stronger case for the conversion to smokeless powder. That was actually another consideration for swaging rims onto 9mms.
A normal moon clip, being made of spring steel would be beyond my abilities to make. But since the only real need for spring steel on the thing would be the place where the cartridges would "clip" in, perhaps one made more to be a spacer indexing the cartridges by the extractor groove. would work satisfactorily.
But alas. I am going to take the "advise" of the nay sayers and just get me some 38 S&W brass. (for now)

[Traffer]

If you don't cast your own load 148 HBWC with 2.5 grains of Bullseye seated to 1.20" overall cartridge length. The hollow base expands to fill the larger grooves and ballistics are like a .38 Special wadcutter. Will shoot to the fixed sights of the old guns and more effective than factory LRN.

It sounds like an opportunity for a heeled boolit. I think the old rimfire 38's were heeled. I wonder if the first 38 S&W cartridges had heeled boolilts? Since I swage heeled boolits for 22lr, I could apply the same technology to the 38 and make me some heeled 38's.

[Kenstone]

The instructions on the link show how to actually swage a rim onto a rimless case. That is what I thought was pure genius. It would crush a ring of brass so that the inside diameter would constrict to the outer diameter of the extraction groove. I also thought it was interesting that the adding of a rim to a 3006 case allowed the mouth of the 3006 to be opened to where there was no shoulder at all. Since the case now chambered on the rim and not the shoulder, it allowed the case to taken up to a 44 caliber which I believe is a straight walled case.
I believe you are correct in thinking that the 9mm is probably thicker brass especially in the head and web. Since these old guns were designed for black powder the capacity is far greater than necessary. So I believe it would be an advantage to have a thicker web making it a stronger case for the conversion to smokeless powder. That was actually another consideration for swaging rims onto 9mms.
A normal moon clip, being made of spring steel would be beyond my abilities to make. But since the only real need for spring steel on the thing would be the place where the cartridges would "clip" in, perhaps one made more to be a spacer indexing the cartridges by the extractor groove. would work satisfactorily.
But alas. I am going to take the "advise" of the nay sayers and just get me some 38 S&W brass. (for now)

Moon clips could be made via a 3-D printer...

Lots of shooters/reloaders have 3-D printers and have made other things, but I'm not one of them.
:mrgreen:

[Outpost75]

Say, Outpost75.......do you have any proven loads for the .38-200? (which for the peanut gallery is the British .38 S&W case with a heavy bullet, meant for the wartime Webley revolver.) I'm using 1.6 of Bullseye, for a somewhat anemic 600 fps. Bullet from an NOE mould, cast almost dead soft, about 40:1.

Ask and you shall receive:

Velocity Comparisons Webley & Scott .380 Mark IV vs. .38 Colt New Police Positive

Ammunition:_____________________4" Webley MkIV_____4" Colt Police Positive

Fiocchi 146-grain LRN factory load____750 fps, 19 Sd______794 fps, 14 Sd
Cdn. DC43 Mk2z 178 FMJ___________577 fps, 8 Sd_______618 fps, 19 Sd
Kynoch 146 grain LRN______________650 fps, 22 Sd_____685 fps, 22Sd

Accurate 36-155D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye___640 fps, 8 Sd______671 fps, 11 Sd
“______________, 2.5 grs. Bullseye___710 fps, 16 Sd_____756 fps, 11 Sd

Accurate 36-178D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye___595 fps, 10 Sd_____601 fps, 18 Sd

Ideal #358430____1.7 grs. Bullseye___513 fps, 11 Sd_____.360 front band would not chamber in Colt

Accurate 36-201D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye___601 fps, 12 Sd_____612 fps, 20 Sd

NOE 201-gr. Mk2, 2.1 grs. Bullseye____609 fps, 12 Sd_____629, fps 15 Sd

In my S&W Victory Models, S&W Model 32-1 Terrier and Ruger India Model Service Six
I use 2.5 grains of Bullseye with 190-grain Accurate 36-190T

Several Accurate designs are tailored especially for the .38 S&W:

233607233608233609233610233611

[salpal48]

If I recall there is or was a 9mm Federal

[9.3X62AL]

In the S&W M&P and the Webley-Enfield DAO I have in 38/200, I use the 202 grain NEI #169A (sized .363") atop 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco. These print where the sights look at 25 yards from the S&W.

In the Colt Police Positive x 4" (sized @ .359") and S&W Regulation Police (sized .361") I use an NOE #358477 (150 grains) with the above powder weights. Both revolvers place hits where the sights look at 25 yards.

Starline cases get the call for all the above loadings. Dimensional tolerances are wide in revolvers and in cases made in this caliber. Do yourself a favor and stick to one make/lot of cases to save yourself some head-scratching.

[KenT7021]

9mm Federal was mentioned in post #3.No longer made.

[uscra112]

Thanks, Outpost! My mould is a hollowpointed 363-200-RN, which was catalogued as specific to the Webley/Enfield. Using the deeper of the two pins makes a bullet that actually does weigh 200 grains +/- 1 after lubing, in an alloy that's about 1:40.

Seems like I'm in the ballpark, but for all those loads you posted I'd want to know the seating depth. Loads like this are awfully sensitive to that. My OAL is 1.220, but that can't be compared with your 36-201 without knowing the exact length of the respective bullets. Need to get more time with my Chrony, too.

I see that I mis-stated my charge weight in my earlier post. It's 1.9 grains, not 1.6 grains. Sometimers is getting bad.

Cheers !

[Outpost75]

Thanks, Outpost! My mould is a hollowpointed 363-200-RN, which was catalogued as specific to the Webley/Enfield. Using the deeper of the two pins makes a bullet that actually does weigh 200 grains +/- 1 after lubing, in an alloy that's about 1:40.

Seems like I'm in the ballpark, but for all those loads you posted I'd want to know the seating depth. Loads like this are awfully sensitive to that. My OAL is 1.220, but that can't be compared with your 36-201 without knowing the exact length of the respective bullets. Need to get more time with my Chrony, too.

I see that I mis-stated my charge weight in my earlier post. It's 1.9 grains, not 1.6 grains. Sometimers is getting bad.

Cheers !

Here is drawing of 36-201D

233614

Seating depth is 0.325" at 1.22" OAL.

[uscra112]

I'm seated .336 deep, which was arbitrarily chosen. Next lot I load I'll go only to .325. There's plenty of room at the front of the cylinder. Then maybe I can up the charge.

Just running that difference in Quickload I see a pressure drop of about 2000 psi.

Too cold for range time now, even at the house, AND it's snowing! :-( Hope I am spared until Spring.

Those Herco and Unique charges would be way over 100% charge density with my bullet & .325 seating depth. Not to mention that the QL model puts them at 50k psi. 2.3 maybe?

[Billthomas]

First try on a 06 case worked great. Thanks again

[Traffer]

First try on a 06 case worked great. Thanks again

Very cool. What are your plans for a rimmed 3006? Gonna make it a straight wall 44?

[Billthomas]

I built a sharps Borchardt and bought a barrel from Les Bauska before he passed, I had it made with a .412 bore and planned on making a .410 rifled slug gun for Michigan deer hunting, well they changed the rule book. basically I have a .405 Winchester chamber but slightly oversize, I may be able to use headed 06 brass as its nominally .010 larger at the head. I can get .405 brass for a buck apiece which would save a lot of work, it's listed as .460 at the head but you never know until you get it, some of my 06 brass measures undersize. I have four builds this winter, a Sharps 75, another Borchardt a 1885 Win and one of my designs but haven't been able to post because of the picture compression, wish they could build that into the web site.

[Mike H]

Years ago,our local mechanic told me that during the war there were 38 revolvers but not much ammo to play with so someone found that 9mm ammo would fit,the rim problem was solved by squeezing the rim of the 9mm round a trifle in a vyce.This worked until guns started to blow up and the practice was banned.

[Traffer]

I built a sharps Borchardt and bought a barrel from Les Bauska before he passed, I had it made with a .412 bore and planned on making a .410 rifled slug gun for Michigan deer hunting, well they changed the rule book. basically I have a .405 Winchester chamber but slightly oversize, I may be able to use headed 06 brass as its nominally .010 larger at the head. I can get .405 brass for a buck apiece which would save a lot of work, it's listed as .460 at the head but you never know until you get it, some of my 06 brass measures undersize. I have four builds this winter, a Sharps 75, another Borchardt a 1885 Win and one of my designs but haven't been able to post because of the picture compression, wish they could build that into the web site.

You can get around the picture compression by uploading your picture(s) to dropbox or Amazon photos and creating a link then posting the link. It is kind of a pain but I do it a lot, especially for emailing pictures because there is a size limit on email pictures also.
I don't know that much about the older guns but I find them fascinating and am learning.