Modified Lee 7/8 oz. Slug Mould ~ Brenneke'ized!

[longbow]

So, I mentioned I might do this and it went very well. Quite satisfying after the setback on the rifled choke tube!

I placed on order with Titan Reloading (great service and better prices than Lee!) to get some parts to upgrade my old Lee Challenger press and while I was at it decided to get a couple of core pins for my 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. Lee slug moulds.

There seems to be a minor bit of confusion on the core pins. Lee says they are different which I would expect but Titan says they are the same. I think Lee is right but for what I want it makes no difference and I like dealing with Titan.

I added two core pins to my order which came amazingly fast especially considering that Canada Post is staging rotating strikes... was, they got legislated back to work. Anyway, I got them pretty quick.

My plan was to add a "post hole" to make a center stem in the "key" so I could drill and add screwed on wads.

I make a tapered reamer out of an old Phillips head screw driver that was missing a handle. So heated the business end red then let it cool. That didn't totally take the heat treating out... it was still tough but machinable.

I turned a taper to about match the tapered post in the Paradox slugs that KrackenFan69 sent me. Then I drilled a pilot hole in the new core pin, then ran the D bit tapered reamer in and it made a perfect tapered hole!

I cleaned up the core pin then exchanged the core pin in my 7/8 oz. mould with the new modified pin and cast some slugs. The turned out great and dropped easily. Pics:

232051232052

I chucked them in the lathe and center drilled then ran a 1/8" drill bit in so I can use a #6 wood screw to attached felt wads between stiff washers Brenneke like. Until i get some 16 ga. felt wads ordered I'll make myself a punch and use some insole felt of whatever I can find to try them out.

You can see that the slugs from the modified mould are slightly longer and slightly thicker skirt than from the unmodified mould. I thought Titan said the pins I ordered for for 7/8 oz. but would work for 1 oz. but I suspect it is the other way around. No matter at $1.50 each they aren't enough money to worry about and the'll work regardless. If the slugs work well I may try to get the "real" core pin but for now it makes no difference. It worked!

The unmodified Lee slug is second from right. It weighs 356 grs. cast from ACWW.

The modified solid weighs 385 grs.

The drilled version weighs 372 grs.

If these work well as Brenneke like slugs I will add a pin in the core pin to leave a screw starter hole so I don't have to drill.

BigMrTong is having good success with his Lee slugs with 3D printed vaned tail wad so I have to think this will work as well... if not with felt wads then maybe plastic wads screwed on. I could 3D print those if I had a 3D printer. I can easily machine some though at least for testing.

So far this is looking good and I have to think will improve the accuracy of the slug. Easy and cheap to try anyway. I think those slugs look good!

Best part is it only cost me $1.50 and took all of about 2 hours to do and there are no permanent changes... I can put the original core pin back in in about 2 minutes.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Please take a picture of the modified core pin. You might have something really good there.

[Ranch Dog]

Very interesting work. I ponder the Lee slug all the time, the need for tail feathers and my inability to provide them. Titan does some 3D products, not as much now as before they expanded their product line to non-Lee equipment. I've thought about contacting Dennis about 3D tails for the Lee slugs. Might be worth an email from anyone that would be interested.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Clever idea there, Longbow. As for the starter hole, it doesn't have to be more than a dimple. I found that self tapping screws will easily cut directly into lead.

[rancher1913]

would love to see some photos of the mold.

[Blood Trail]

Great ideal, LB! Looks professional. I look forward to your results.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[longbow]

Michael:

Not sure if you've seen these threads by BigMrTong:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?358525-Lee-7-8oz-Custom-Slug-Wads
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?364546-Improvement-of-my-Good-1oz-Lee-Slug-Load

An interesting way to add a tail wad... if a guy has a 3D printer that is.

I've tried to "Brennele'ize a few slugs but so far the biggest problems have been getting the tail wads consistent and relatively easy to make, and tail wad material. I live in a rural area with not much access to things like nylon or polyethylene rod unless I want to order 20' or so. Consequently I've tried drilled nitro card wads ~ they delaminate and become awfully scraggly after being whacked with 10,000 PSi; I have machined some polyethylene tail wads but it was tedious and for some reason I did not get good accuracy which I have not figured out; hot melt glue cast in paper tubes onto round balls or slugs with wood screws inserted with enough head out for glue to grab; hot melt glue into forms with slugs or balls. So far the best results are with hot melt glue onto TC shaped short fat slugs. These are mostly wad slugs as full bore hot melt glue slugs require a paper or other tube to avoid glue contacting the bore. I have made full bore slugs that worked reasonably well but the paper tubes tended to get pretty "rough" on the trip. Not sure how much roughing up they get in the bore versus at impact but the wad style slugs worked better for me regardless.

I've added hot melt glue tail wads to Lee slugs as well with improved results. But the hot melt glue is a bit of a pain to handle and the results are not like injection moulding though they can be pretty good.

The intent of these modified Lee slugs is to allow use of screwed on wads of hard felt or like what Uncle Dino uses:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB12-12ga-x-8mm-Wad-Base-250_bag/productinfo/072HB12/

Though the hole in these is pretty large, or some drilled plastic rod (if I can get some easily). That and these are only available in 12 ga. full bore so I'd have to use a full bore slugs to attach them to. I tried to order some a couple of years ago. Long story and I don't have any yet.

I'm actually surprised that BigMrTong is getting better results with fins than a cylindrical tail wad. I made a mould to cast finned slugs and while they looked very cool and flew nose on, the accuracy was not great... round balls do better (smoothbore loading). However, the proof is in the pudding as they say.

I'll try to get a pic of the core pin later though I'm not sure the tapered hole will show up well. I'll include the D bit reamer in the pic.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

LB, I thought that Mooseberg you bought has a rifled barrel but these loads are oriented toward a smoothbore. Either way looks like you could screw and glue a full bore plastic gas seal or two on tha modified slug and be assured of getting it out of the barrel straight. No leading as naked slug is smaller than plastic base. ???

[megasupermagnum]

My thinking is you are not far from milling a couple .735" bands on the slug for a full bore brenneke style slug. Nobody said rifled slug rifling had to be vertical.

[longbow]

Hal ~ no it is a smoothbore. I missed out on a used rifled barrel for $150.00 CDN at the same shop! Regular they run about $280.00 IIRC.

msm ~ I've got mould for Brenneke like slugs with longitudinal straight vanes and I have full bore smooth slugs that can be Brennele'ized by attaching a tail wad. The problem I've had so far is getting consistent tail wads. Easy for Brenneke as they order what they want by the 10's of thousands but for us backwoods tinkerers it isn't so easy to get what you want or need. I have not tried a hard felt yet but that is next on my list. Brenneke wads seem to be a fibrous material like felt but harder... maybe resin impregnated? Benco Vitt were similar. I'll try felt but I think it is too squadgey and will deform. I suspect I will have to soak it in watered down carpenter's glue or something to firm it up without making it solid. Again, I do like the AQ wads too! Even without the vanes, but I am not machining every wad!

Here's a pic of the D bit reamer and a modified Lee core pin:

232093

Not much to it and it only takes about two minuted to modify the core pin ~ remove it (one screw), center drill, drill 1/8" to depth, drill 13/64" to depth, run the reamer in, clean off chips, reinstall, cast!

Since it seems to work I will look at adding the screw hole starter pin, then no drilling required after casting. I've done that with my solids for holding the glue skirts in place.

Part of the goal of this is to achieve better accuracy at longer distance but also doing it in a way that an average guy with a few tools can do it or get it done inexpensively. Lee moulds are cheap, the core pins they almost give away and Lee slugs work not too badly as is. Maybe they'll do better with "feathers" as Ranch Dog says.

A guy has to do something to stay out of trouble.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

LB, what is causing that ring around the base of the slug?? A little bit bigger and you would have a lube grove there. I noticed it wasn’t on the base of the unmodified slug... just wondering if the new pin somehow caused it due to the added length?

Marko

[longbow]

Yes, the core pins are a bit different. if you read my first post, there was a bit of confusion (maybe on my part?) about the core pins. Lee only listed a 7/8 oz. core pin on their website... or all I could find was the 7/8 oz. core pin and Titan said the same core pin works for both moulds. I thought that meant they were the same. Close but not quite. It appears the core pins I got are for the 1 oz. mould and the core pin for the cavity is lightly longer and slightly smaller diameter than the 7/8 oz. core pin so thicker and slightly longer skirt. The rest is the same, so yes, the same pin fits both moulds but does not make the same slugs.

For what I am doing it makes no difference but yes, there is a 1 oz. core pin and a 7/8 oz. core pin with slight differences.

The core pin I posted the pic of is the 1 oz. core pin but it is going into a 1 oz. slug mould so will be the same as what came out. It'll be interesting to see how much extra weight it adds to the 1 oz. slug. Not a lot I suspect but some.

I may shorten the end of the core pin as well and use a center drill to open it up more conical to add weight around the top of the post and make the slug not only heavier but nose heavier. For now I just want to try the screwed on 16 ga. felt wads and see how that works for a wad slug. They should fit into 1 1/8 oz. or 1 1/4 oz. shotcups for length.

I have to say that for the price the Lee slug moulds are quite good. My 1 oz. mould is old style and the 7/8 oz. is new style. The 1 oz. stuck a bit when I first cast but a small amount of TLC and clean up to remove tiny burrs and the slugs drop out now. The 7/8 oz. takes a gentle tap or two so not bad. The core pins machine very nicely. I'd prefer the slugs to be a few thou larger and with a bit less taper but mostly just a bit less taper. I'll have to try to find some Federal wads though as Randy says they have thicker and more tapered petals than the Winchester wads I have. I have to order in so hard to compare different wads without ordering a bag of each brand and style.

I was hoping to load and shoot tomorrow but I have to drive to Kelowna about 4 hours away to pick up my wife. She's coming back from a doctor appointment in Vancouver and didn't trust the weather for airplane landing in Castlegar as we get lots of fog and low cloud in winter. She bussed to Kelowna when she left on Wednesday but no seats on the bus coming back! Oh well, I'll spend the day driving 4 hours each way tomorrow. Might get out shooting Sunday.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Ahh... I seee now... I promise I did read the first post sir... lol... was curious if the line was just a by product.....

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: Ranch Dog posted some pics of some Felt Cleaning Wads along with some bore cleaner a week or so back on the "Sabot Technologies" thread.

Look here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?371566-Sabot-Technologies/page2

These already have a hole thru and are made of some kind of felt with copper wire in them or something. IE; they would probably hold up well. They are available from Brownell's (not cheap!) but they look like they would do exactly what you want. I might add these are made in Germany and look very close to the wad on the back of a Brenneke Slug?

As far as the plastic washers, you should be able to turn and cut off some plastic rod. I don't know if Mc Master-Carr ships to you but they have every kind of material like this known to man and in quantities that are reasonable to anyone. Probably cost more to ship than the material costs. Available in 1, 2, 3 and 6' lengths.

Another way for you might be to use some epoxy and cast it into a piece of PVC pipe then turn it to your desired Dia.

Brass washers that are well under bore size or stacked on a mandrel and turned to the desired dia. and then use the felt cleaning wads as the gas seal could work also. You could do the same thing with plastic sheet you found laying around, cut a bunch of pieces and stack them on a bolt and turn to size.

Rather than making the new mould pin I believe I would just make a blank mould pin and cast the slug as a solid with a hole in the middle for the screw then attach the Felt Wad and washer.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

I already have solid slugs with screw starter holes in them. I made new core pins for my push out moulds in both wad slugs diameter and full bore. I have used them with the hot melt glue tail wads and with reasonable success, except... as usual getting good consistent tail wads is the problem. most turn out okay but many wind up with bubbles in them. the hot melt glue is extremely tough and works very well as a poor man's "injection moulded" tail wad when squirted into a form. Keeping bubbles out is the major issue now. All the rest works well and these slugs with good tail wads have shown some very good accuracy.

One of the benefits (I think) is that the extended glue tail wad is somewhat flexible and expands under compression to fill the bore which is evident on recovered wads. That expansion may result in somewhat higher pressure due to bore friction but so far no problems. They are not difficult to make but again making them without bubbles seems to be the issue. I might have a solution there though so will be trying it out shortly.

The felt idea comes from Brenneke and Benco-Vitt. If I can find the right felt it should be easy to punch for screw and assemble consistent tail wads. I do need some beefy plastic or leather washers on top and bottom too but I'll find something for that. Brass or copper washers could work but would likely have much too large a hole in them if 3/4" O.D.

The main reason for the Lee mould modification is so that a guy with a few bucks for a mould and a few tools may be able to do it himself or get a machinist to modify the core pin. I can make my own moulds so no problem there for me. Also, being hollow base rather than solid the Lee is more choke friendly than a solid slug. To that end, I still have my full bore ribbed core mould so may try a solid ribbed full bore slug with full bore felt tail wad as well as wad slugs with felt tail wads.

Besides I have both Lee moulds and the Drive key slugs work okay so maybe this will improve them. Maybe not too (been there before!) but it is fun playing and easy to do.

OOOOOHHHH! Those felts do look nice Randy! I remember seeing them now but wasn't thinking of tail wads when I saw that post. Now I am! Even if just for a test. If they are available in 16 ga. they'd be perfect for wad slugs. I'll look.

I was actually hoping for better results from you guys with the Lyman 525 gr. mould because I was sorely tempted to buy one but so far 100 yard accuracy with them seems elusive unless I've missed something.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

I wonder what type of screw to use in a setup like this? you don’t want too big of a screw to attach to it, but you would want a firm grip. I guess one could take apart a brenekke and get a good measurement of the screw they use. And what should it be made of, small alum type? Or steel? I would assume lighter....

[Markopolo]

I found these for the vfg shotgun cleaning felts super intensive...

232141

And these 232142

From either place, they are proud of them... hey also have a regular felt intensive that might do just as good, pretty dense...232144

They do add to the length of the screw though and overall length of the slug especially once you add a sort of plastic washer...

[tomme boy]

Have you looked here to see if they have anything to make your own? http://www.durofelt.com/products.html

[Ginsing]

Longbow
You should try to find very high density wool felt. It is very tough and does not compress much. I have a strip it is about 1/2" thick that I punch out for buckshot loads. Use a 16mm hollow gasket punch and that should be just about right for fitting in a shotcup. I can give you a piece to try out

[longbow]

A short update...

I just cast with the modified 1 oz. slug mould and the finished slugs weigh 470 grs. cast from ACWW where original Lee designs casts 445 grs. from ACWW. The only obvious difference is the post in the middle... no seam and extension like on the 7/8 oz. mould since the core pin is a 1 oz. core pin.

My 1 oz. Lee mould is the old style blocks and the core pin was riveted in place rather than screwed in as the new ones are. I had to file the mushroom head of the aluminum stem to remove the original core pin then simply used the Lee shoulder screw to install the new modified core pin (I ordered a couple of shoulder screws as well).

Markopolo ~ those look a lot like the ones Ranch Dog posted. Probably the same. I'll check prices but those seem pretty pricey.

tomme boy ~ yes, I was looking at the Durofelt site earlier. I'll see if I can find anything locally but I'm guessing I'll be ordering if I want good quality hard felt. I'll see what Ginsing has and where he got it. First thing is to test, then if it works well enough to pursue I'll order a bunch so I'm set for a while.

I plan on using a #6 wood screw and likely steel. I might go as small as #4. The screw is so light in comparison I doubt it matters. In fact if this works well enough to do again I may go to a small nail that is slightly bigger than the hole in the stem then simply drive the nail with felts into the stem. I've done that with my solids and the nails stay swaged in place... except that was with nitro card wads and they didn't do so well. I should have tried felt a long time ago.

I'll get some tail wads made up then get out shooting!

Longbow

[tomme boy]

The lady that runs the place knows shooters. I get my hard felt there for my muzzleloaders and for loading steel shot. She also has pure lanolin if you need that for mixing lube.

[tomme boy]

I like what your doing. Hopefully they will release from the wads consistently. If that happens you are going to figure out these Lee slugs for us all.

I can see everyone wanting you to make them a core plug. LOL!!!

[Cap'n Morgan]

Before I started to use injection molded wads, I toyed with the idea of "stiffen up" ordinary felt or paper mache wads by soaking them in solvent-thinned varnish, but never got around to actually try it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you google VFG cleaning pellets you'll find they make them in every caliber from.17 to 10 ga. I have been using them (unknowingly) for 30 years to clean my Airgun Barrels.

The regular Felt ones are much cheaper but the gray felt ones are much tougher and are a lot more expensive.

I guess you could also clean you barrels with them to get more value out of them.

Brownell's has them, all the other places I saw were in Europe

Randy

[Markopolo]

I saw them in Brownells, one of the most expensive places to get them, and in smaller quantities only.

[BigMrTong]

Following along with interest, the idea of modding the lee slug mould and central pin sounds like an interesting project.

[longbow]

BigMrTong with your 3D printed tails you seem to be doing very well. I had thought about 3D printing a screw on tail wad but yours work without the screw so... why bother.

Since I don't have a 3D printer (yet) I have to look at other options. Felt seems like a pretty good option and it turns out I have some really dense felt to try. Unfortunately I couldn't find an appropriate size gasket punch so I'll have to make one. Not a big deal but time consuming.

Back to your 3D printed tail wads... I've wondered about a sabot system similar to the Sauvestre http://www.sauvestre.com/12-70,1381 or the old BRI slug (now marketed by Winchester) https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/winchester-super-x-bri-sabot-slugs-shotshells which would be even easier. While they say these are for rifled gun only TAOFLEADERMAUS proved different https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TngXWeHKyBw

Not sure what material costs or how much time it takes to print a sabot but some food for thought there.

In the meantime, I'll play with my Lee slugs and felt wads.

Longbow

[BigMrTong]

I did have a go with this type of thing and 3D printed Sabots, but had awful results. I assumed it was because I was using smoothbore, but maybe just an awful design :-)

My sobot released the bullet / slug fine, but accuracy was shocking.

232205

[longbow]

Is that a 4 petal sabot... kinda like a thick petal shotcup or do the petals/fingers actually separate?

I'm thinking the Sauvestre and BRI style with 1/2 or 1/3 segment totally separating pieces would be easy to print (maybe makes no difference there) and solid pieces that simply separate so no opening up and maybe/maybe not clean release.

I think those sabots have to be squeezing that slug pretty hard too to avoid wobble. Being punted in the butt by 10,000 PSI will wake you up! Any give there is is going to give with the pressure and acceleration... sloppy bits need not apply!

Difficult to do without a 3D printer but not so bad with one. I suppose a mould could be made and a urethane or other resin used to make sabots but I suspect cost and time would be to much for more than testing. Now injection moulded would be a different animal all together! But equipment costs get you there.

Also, I just noticed. Is that a shorty sabot on top of a cushion leg? I am thinking all one piece with maybe a plastic gas seal under. Longer makes for better guidance and stability in the bore and less chance of tipping in the forcing cone.

Just my thoughts on it.

As for my Lee slug experiments, I have found some very dense felt (seems to me I mentioned that but don't see it above) so now have to make a punch because I can't find an appropriate gasket punch locally... or any gasket punch for that matter. A 17mm punch would be about right and 0.672" is what is recommended for 16 ga. which is what I like in the shotcup. I will make on to punch out 0.672" disks of felt and plastic of some kind for washers. Not sure I'll need the washers since this is a wad slug but better to put at least one on the back end anyway.

Might be delayed until after Christmas now with everything going on and kids coming home for Christmas in the Kootenays. The daughter lives in Edmonton (about 10 to 12 hours drive depending) and son lives in Vancouver (about 8 hour drive).

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB I got my Lee 1 oz Slug Mould today, and will try to get some cast up tomorrow. Was the mould pin on your moulds riveted in? That kind of makes it difficult to remove without screwing the mould up.

I figured that it would be held in place by a small screw? but noooooo!

I was looking at Russian Moulds from Canada today and one caught my eye. It is the one with 3 mould pins 2 are tapered and the 3rd one is for the "plug in wad." Boolit weights are 522 gr. 536 gr. and 615 gr. The driving bands are .728 It is called the "Paradox Slug," and bares a strong resemblance to the 8 Bore Boolits I spoke of in one post about the 8 bore Paradox Rifle. This slug couldn't be shot thru a choked barrel at all, but for cylinder bore and rifled it would work great.

I do see an attached wad as being the final answer to our accuracy quest.

Randy

[longbow]

My Lee 1 oz. mould has (had) a riveted in core pin. The 7/8 oz. has a screw in core pin (held by small shoulder screw).

I filed the "rivet" head off the 1 oz. core pin then punched it out. Not a problem. The new spare core pins from Titan are for the 1 oz. mould and they are threaded for the shoulder screw. So, the new Lee 1 oz. mould still has riveted core pin but spares are threaded!?! No wonder I was confused!

Makes no difference to me since the slightly heavier and slightly longer 7/8 oz. slug will get a tail wad anyway. The 1 oz. slug looks identical to original except for the post now. The 7/8 oz. is slightly longer and slightly thicker skirt using the 1 oz. pin but it works fine.

There are two different part numbers though ~ 1 for 1 oz. and it is threaded; 1 for 7/8 oz. and it is threaded... except I don't have one.

That slug looks to be the same as the "Paradox" slugs KrackenFan69 sent me. They more or less resemble Paradox boolits but are much lighter being hollow base. They shot okay to 25 yards but my 50 yard groups were not great. However, the slugs ran about 0.727" and my bore is 0.733" so that didn't help. I have knurled some up to over 0.735" then sized back to 0.733" but have not shot them yet.

Now that I have the Slugster with 0.729" bore I will try some in that as well.

I like the Russian "Paradox" and Tusker designs but I would choose to have them cast to 0.735" on the bands (and maybe narrower bands) so they will swage to suit any bore under 0.735" like Brenneke's do. Also, I'd go with a tail wad with no cushion leg... or at least very solid/stiff/hard to deform leg with gas seal on the end... or maybe just a leg and separate gas seal so no issues with wrinkled or torn lips causing erratic drag. Like I said those AQ's shot well for me and that is how they are made.

I am going to try a hot melt glue full bore tail wad in paper tube on my full bore TC slugs so see how those do. That would be equivalent to the slugs you have with a solid tail wad. As long as I can get decent tail wads with no big bubbles they should do okay. Time... I just need some time to do all this ~ rifling a choke tube, modifying Lee moulds, putting spring set in the Slugster, loading, testing! Work gets in the way!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Not to mention the weather? Aren't you's guys all snowed in by now?

I will talk to Mossberg about a Rifled barrel with sights for you at SHOT. I know they have a variety of barrels configurations you just have to suss out the correct part number.

I saw an 18" 590A1 with a rifled barrel and open sights at a gun shop and we can't find the thing in the catalog. I know it wasn't a special order either. I personally think an 18" rifled barrel for a M500 would be the hot tip for you. Easy to carry around and quick handling but still with decent range and accuracy. I don't like the looks of the longer barrels on the M500's like the Turkey and especially a Camo'd barrel on a blued gun.

In my world things need to look right and operate right.

Here's one with a Rifled Barrel that looks OK but it is 24", would work on your gun? Note the model #54264 on the picture. You would have to get a dealer to order that barrel for you.

Like I said I will talk to a Rep and find out what is available and how you in Canada can get it.

Randy232314

[longbow]

Actually we are having an El Ninio winter so far... WET! We have a bit of snow but not much.

Snow isn't a problem as long as the road to the range is ploughed.

I'm afraid my budget will limit me to a used rifle barrel if I can find another good deal. I wish I had made the move on that one for $150.00!

Oh well.

I haven't given up on the rifled choke tube either. I just have to try again. The reason I am bent on that is that I think a slower twist is better than 1:36"+/- where modern rifled barrels and choke tubes are.

If I had a way of rifling a full length barrel I would but I will be limited to a choke tube. With slow twist there should be no slippage.

Anyway, I've got lots of smoothbore slugs to test yet.

If the modified Lee slugs with tail wads show promise maybe I'll send some down to one of you guys for testing in rifled gun.

Seems like the Lee and Lyman sabot slugs should be good as is from rifled gun... assuming good fit in wad.

Hal seems to be getting good results.

Makes me want a good rifled gun with scope!

Longbow

[tomme boy]

What style of choke is your barrel threaded for? Colonial chokes makes rifled tubes for everything

[Blood Trail]

Not to mention the weather? Aren't you's guys all snowed in by now?

I will talk to Mossberg about a Rifled barrel with sights for you at SHOT. I know they have a variety of barrels configurations you just have to suss out the correct part number.

I saw an 18" 590A1 with a rifled barrel and open sights at a gun shop and we can't find the thing in the catalog. I know it wasn't a special order either. I personally think an 18" rifled barrel for a M500 would be the hot tip for you. Easy to carry around and quick handling but still with decent range and accuracy. I don't like the looks of the longer barrels on the M500's like the Turkey and especially a Camo'd barrel on a blued gun.

In my world things need to look right and operate right.

Here's one with a Rifled Barrel that looks OK but it is 24", would work on your gun? Note the model #54264 on the picture. You would have to get a dealer to order that barrel for you.

Like I said I will talk to a Rep and find out what is available and how you in Canada can get it.

Randy232314

Mossberg does make a 590/590A1 with a threaded barrel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[W.R.Buchanan]

BT: Threaded or Rifled? He wants a Rifled Barrel for his M500. The 590 barrels won't go onto a M500 due to the position of the barrel lug in relation to the end of the magazine tube. Also the 590's have a different attachment on the end of the mag tube so the barrels are not interchangeable.

His barrel is threaded so he could conceivably use a rifled choke tube. I found Carlson's makes a Rifled Choke Tube for Winchester shotguns that fits the M500 barrel and the Browning Invector system its 1:35 twist .730 groove dia and it is only $50! This maybe the best solution as you aren't reinventing the wheel and it's only $50.

1:34-1:36 seems to be the industry standard for 12 ga Rifling. My Hastings barrel is 1:34.

Maybe this helps.

Randy

[longbow]

Actually my slugger is straight through cylinder bore and not threaded for choke tube.

I bought a barrel adaptor from Brownells to silver solder on so I can use screw in choke tubes... which is what I started rifling to slow twist.

It is my thought and opinion that modern rifled barrels and choke tubes are rifled at much too fast a twist for round balls and square slugs. 12 ga. round balls and slugs of about 1:1 length to bore diameter only need about 1:10" to 1:120" twist.

The fast 1:34" to 1:36" twists that seem standard for rifled bores and choke tubes are for sabot slugs.

There may be nothing wrong with "over spinning" a ball or slug if it is "perfect" but if there are any imperfections (always are some) then "over spinning" has to affect accuracy. I think this is also one of the reasons that solid slugs seem to be more accurate than hollow base slugs out of rifled guns. HB slugs are by their nature hollow so the mass and any imperfections are out away from the centroid where they will have a larger effect on the slug ~ less mass but more "leverage" by being at longer radius. My opinion only.

Anyway, if I had a threaded barrel I would have tried a rifled choke tube some time ago and will be once I get all this "stuff" sorted out and done. The point of the slow twist rifled choke tube is to both avoid over spinning and with the slower twist in a choke tube there should be less tendency for skidding or stripping in the rifling. This is likely more of an issue with wad slugs.

Not that I have the barrel adaptor I will put it on my single shot to test both factory rifled choke tubes and if I get it made, my slow twist rifled choke tube. It got a good start but I had some problems with the choke tube slipping while cutting rifling with an aggressive hook cutter ~ mistake on my part! I'll try to complete it but if beyond saving will start again.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

I wonder what the twist on the rifled tube for the Russian Saiga 12ga AK would be? I don't know if you have ever seen how they work but they screw onto the outside of the barrel instead of the inside like our chokes do. I wonder if European American Armory would be able to get them? They were the importer of the Saiga guns.

[Blood Trail]

BT: Threaded or Rifled? He wants a Rifled Barrel for his M500. The 590 barrels won't go onto a M500 due to the position of the barrel lug in relation to the end of the magazine tube. Also the 590's have a different attachment on the end of the mag tube so the barrels are not interchangeable.

His barrel is threaded so he could conceivably use a rifled choke tube. I found Carlson's makes a Rifled Choke Tube for Winchester shotguns that fits the M500 barrel and the Browning Invector system its 1:35 twist .730 groove dia and it is only $50! This maybe the best solution as you aren't reinventing the wheel and it's only $50.

1:34-1:36 seems to be the industry standard for 12 ga Rifling. My Hastings barrel is 1:34.

Maybe this helps.

Randy

I was thinking threaded with a rifled choke tube.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well I guess his barrel isn't threaded.

I don't think the twist rate is going to affect the slugs nearly as much as you think. Any spin is better than no spin and a 2" long section of Rifling at the end is not going to impart very much spin anyway. It will induce some, how much remains to be seen.

Here's a new Rifled Barrel on Ebay for $120US and it appears that they will ship to Canada.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mossberg-500-12ga-24-Fully-Rifled-Cantilever-Trophy-Slug-Barrel-No-Packaging/153288814606?hash=item23b0b9b00e:g:M8AAAOSwt0dcBYG R:sc:USPSPriority!93023!US!-1:rk:5:pf:0

There's a bunch of them on there. All the Smooth Bore Barrels have sights, and all the Rifled Barrels have a Cantelever Scope Mount. They range from $120 to $200 and most all of them are new.

Your gun is an 18" bbl with sights? I'd like that!

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

Well I guess his barrel isn't threaded.

I don't think the twist rate is going to affect the slugs nearly as much as you think. Any spin is better than no spin and a 2" long section of Rifling at the end is not going to impart very much spin anyway. It will induce some, how much remains to be seen.

Here's a new Rifled Barrel on Ebay for $120US and it appears that they will ship to Canada.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mossberg-500-12ga-24-Fully-Rifled-Cantilever-Trophy-Slug-Barrel-No-Packaging/153288814606?hash=item23b0b9b00e:g:M8AAAOSwt0dcBYG R:sc:USPSPriority!93023!US!-1:rk:5:pf:0

There's a bunch of them on there. All the Smooth Bore Barrels have sights, and all the Rifled Barrels have a Cantelever Scope Mount. They range from $120 to $200 and most all of them are new.

Your gun is an 18" bbl with sights? I'd like that!

Randy

I don't think anyone here has enough experience to say that. If you look at muzzleloaders, nobody with a modern 1:28" twist gun is getting their best accuracy with a round ball or conical. Look at Taufledermaus on youtube, how many slugs has he tried now that are stable from a smooth bore, but practically tumble in a rifled gun? Two or three at least. Rifled choke tubes absolutely work, and I think Longbow is right on the money. Unfortunately in this modern day of $5 per shot sabot slugs nobody will care, but a slow twist rifled choke could be wonderful for rifled slugs, or other full bore slugs.

[longbow]

I'll argue the point in that Fosbery built the Paradox gun in 1885:

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2013/12/is-it-shotgun-or-rifle-paradox-gun.html
https://www.classicshooting.com/blogs/reading/17662636-definition-of-a-paradox-gun

They worked quite well and were copied by others. From Modern Sporting Gunnery, 1906:

BALL- AND SHOT-GUNS AND THEIR DEVELOPMENT

SINCE about the year 1885 these weapons have been used
in various parts of the world. Early in this period the
principal systems were the Paradox, the Colindian, and
the Cosmos. Recently a new type has been introduced
by Westley Richards, which is deserving of special
mention, as it advances this useful weapon to a larger degree of
usefulness.

In the year named, Colonel Fosbery first advanced a system of
barrel-boring for the ordinary shot-gun termed " rifle-choke," by
means of which one and the same barrel could be made to throw
small shot with fair precision at 40 yards range, and also a single
projectile up to 80 or 100 yards. This dual purpose was effected
by boring the barrel smooth from the breech end to within a few
inches of the muzzle, at which point the bore was constricted, this
choked portion being rifled throughout.


What I have not found is Rifling twist rate. I contacted H&H London and while they were very helpful they did not have the twist rate. H&H is using the same tooling used for the original Paradox guns! They have not checked twist rate.

What I do know is that the old bore guns (or those I have found info on anyway) followed the same rules as rifled muzzleloaders for round ball twist so SLOW twist.

Note these twist rates for large bores:

http://www.octobercountry.com/pages/Muzzleloading-Rifles.html
http://pacificriflecompany.blogspot.com/


One caveat here is that with the relatively low velocities of shotguns, the twist rate may have to be faster than what a heavily loaded stout bore gun might have due to potentially higher velocity. However, since bore guns in 12 ga. ran twists like 1:120" I'd say 1:72" is fast. My .50 cal. Hawken has 1:66: twist.

Here is some interesting reading:

http://ezine.nitroexpress.info/NickuduFiles/Africa-PDF/Africa310.pdf

Note that this rifled choke system was also used for 20 ga. guns like Explora and Fauneta. These Paradox copies were made by Greener, Westley Richards, Jeffrey and others.

I am not trying to invent anything new with the rifled choke tube, more re-introduce what I think they were rather than the fast twists choke tubes produced today. I could be wrong on this and a rifled choke tube is not quite the same as a rifled choke so we'll see but I do intend to try.

Also, from James Gates on Shotgunworld in 2006:

Hello Jim.....There are many theories being tossed about concerning Paradox guns and fully rifled bareels in the various so-called shotgun bores.There has been many thay have researched the subject. There seems to be the Standard Paradox gun with the last few inches rifled, plus fully rifled barrels set up for either thin brass hulls (10%) or the thicker paper hulls (90%).....esch having slightly different bore dismeters. It does appear that the lands in the barrels were what we now consider standard (.729"/730") with the grooves running as high as .750" in the barrels designed for brass hulls.
On ther other hand the reverse is today's standard, with the grooves never bore size and the lands smaller (Hastings@ .717" land and .727" groove).
The original had a much slower twist, many as slow as 1 in 80".....because they where design as round ball guns ans conicals the were "squared" (length=diameter). Contrary to what many beleive today, all these guns were designed for hardened balls/bullets. This was done for two reasons.....first for penetration, but also to not alow stripping with the bullet at full velocity hit the rifled portion on the barrel in the Paradox. This problem arises today in the fast twist rifled choke tubes when the high velocity slug/bullst, being soft lead or plastice sabot, hit the fast twist.
Now to recoil! The original Parardox bullet was around 730" and weight at 730 grs.......velocity of the blackpowder load@1000'/" and the later Cordite load@1200'/". These weight/velocity loads could be controled rather well. Sad but true, Velocity is the key word today! Add velocity and recoil with the heavy type slug/bullets get rather brutal. Since recoil starts the milli-second that the bullet starts to move.....there is little proof that the recoil was less when the bullet hit the forward rifling. Various recoil reduction systems used excaping gas to function. There may have been some recoil reduction due to less friction in the smoothbore part of the barrel?
I am talking to a choke make about a select grop of choke tubes with a 1 in 80" twist. These would duplicte the internal ballistics of the Paradox guns.....but only with full size hard slug/bullets.
There is a gross misunderstnding today about full bore hard cast slug/bullets in rifled barrels. Our ongoing test have found them extremely accurate at very long range....albeit with a very high trajectory. This can be somewhat offset by sighting in at longer range where the slug/bullet was alowed to be 3"/4" bove the line of sight between the firearrm and where it wad zeroed in at.
I try to stay away from forums that are programed for lightweight bullets in sabots. Dixie Slugs concept is not new....we have re-introduced what worked very well for many years in Africa/India. Recent tests with the NEF Ultras have proved the point about accuracy with our loads.
It all boils down to what your hunting ranges are and the type of game! We sell little product in Shotgun-Only states, since the sabot rounds are on roll in those areas! I have tried to get people that believe in the sabot rounds to ship examples out to Cody for teat against Ole' Dixie's ammo.....none are forthcoming.
The Shotgun-Only states represent a very small portion of the total hunting market......and we ship a great deal of product in other areas. Regards, James

I don't think we should be trying for imparting some spin to the slug. We should be trying to impart the full rifling twist to the slug. Deep slow twist rifling is most likely to do that with full bore slugs. Sabot and wad slugs need to be keyed to the sabot/wad or squeezed very tightly to avoid skidding. Rifled choke tubes are likely the worst offenders here since the payload is screaming along at full velocity when it hits that 1:36" twist, which if as I think is faster than necessary for stabilization then it is a bad thing. A slower twist will be less likely to result in skidding or slippage. Maybe not an issue with full bore slugs or round balls but most likely is with wad/sabot slugs.

One man's opinion!

Longbow

[longbow]

Randy:

My Slugster has 18 1/2" barrel with rifle sights. A good combination for bear protection. Quick to acquire sight picture and simple.

I've painted the front sight white and plan to order a ghost ring rear sight. Williams makes a nice one. In the meantime I will try enlarging the slot in the rear leaf... or getting a leaf with larger slot. I am finding the sights difficult to see in anything but bright light.

Most of the Mossberg rifled barrels seem to be cantilever scope mount and 24" long. I don't want 24" especially if I have a scope. 22" is plenty and 20" even better in my opinion. If it is a "target" and "plinking" barrel the extra length is not a big deal but I'd still like shorter. A benefit of the cantilever barrels is that there is no front sight to move or remove if you shorten the barrel... just lop it off then re -crown. However, then a guy needs a scope or a red dot on the gun. I didn't want the extra expense, complication and "stuff" hanging of the gun but again, if it is a "target" and "plinking" gun that isn't so important and a scope is more precise than open sights (12 ga. varminter!?!)

Back on topic unlike my post above...

I plan to test out these Brenneke'ized Lee slugs in the cylinder bore smoothbore barrel. It would be interesting to see how they do in rifled barrel but I'd be surprised it they did as well as the Hammerheads. I suppose if they held 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards from rifled barrel I wouldn't be disappointed and if they'd do that from smoothbore I'd be dancing a jig! I don't expect I'll need new dancing shoes though!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Glad you brought up the Pacific Rifle Co (now gone but he made some nice looking guns.) You can still buy the basic Hopkins & Allen rifle kits.

He had a 12 and 20 ga rifle using Alexander Henry Rifling and as I recall it was 1:120 twist for the big round balls.

I almost have the A5 running so I will be shooting it hopefully next week. and I loaded a bunch of slugs and buckshot today to test. Lee and Lyman Slugs with roll crimps on trimmed AA hulls with blue wads .

We'll see what happens.

By the way that open sight on your Slugster is the ideal fast acquisition Rear Sight. After you establish your cheek weld in a repeatable fashion so that the Front Sight is aligned with the Rear Sight when you mount the gun,,, and held there by the cheek weld, then all you have to do is put that big white front sight on the target and let fly!

Focus on the Front Sight only and when it covers the target break the shot.

My Tac gun has a Green FO Front Sight and Open Rear (Williams) and I have 2 new Williams Front Sights for the A5 barrels which will be green as well. White works great too. The rear sights on the Browning barrels are a thin notch and they work good with the thin Factory blades,,, but need to be opened up for the FO front sights to work right. A few minutes with a round jewelers file will fix that.

Randy

[longbow]

So you are recommending against a ghost ring sight?

I generally like open sights but am finding that my aging eyes aren't as good as they used to be so I'm having a bit of trouble. I figured the more open ghost ring rear sight would allow more light and easier acquisition of the front sight against the target.

Certainly opening up the rear sight will help so I'll try that first. If it is good enough I'll stick with what I have.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB In this case yes, I think the open sights are the best option.. I am 69, I wear Progressive glasses full time.

With open sights the sight alignment is held in place by your cheek weld. IE: Every time you mount the gun your sight alignment is there, because your cheek is going to the same place and thus your eye is too. Therefore sight alignment is fixed.

All you have to do is focus on the Front Sight and put it on the target. There doesn't need to be a bunch of refocusing back and forth between the FS the RS and the target to keep confirming sight alignment. It is fixed by your cheek weld.

After a while it becomes second nature, and all you look at is the Front Sight put the sight on the target and let fly..

On most of my open sight guns the Front Sight is either a Green FO or a White Line. (XS) which helps draw your attention to the FS.

Once you get this down you will start to notice a specific "Sight Picture" that yields a hit. This is why you don't have to focus on the target, just the Front Sight.

This is a situation where frequent or intensive practice needs to take place. One way is to use a BB gun or other type of gun where you can shoot the gun alot in a short period of time and there is little external influence on you. You can see the BB in flight. Once you shoot enough you will see that when you mount the gun the sights are aligned and you are anticipating where the shot will go based on previous experience.

A couple of years ago I shot a 31/40 in Rimfire Silhouette with an open sighted .22.Much to the amazement of all spectators, and those with scopes.

I talk alot about this on other forums as I get tired of hearing the "Old Eyes Excuse." All your eyes need to do is focus on a spot 2-3 feet in front of you, and if your glasses are decent you should be able to do that. Progressive Lenses not bifocals which will drive you nuts as you can't focus on anything, as they are an "either/or" focal length. With progressive lenses you simply move your head up or down to get to the sweet spot in the lenses that has your front sight in focus.

I assure you that everything I talked about above works.

Also you will notice that the vast majority of Dangerous Game Rifles have open sights. Pretty sure they figured this out along time ago.

I'd love to have that open sighted barrel for my HD gun!

Randy

[Ginsing]

Longbow:
If you have the extra cash I would highly recommend a ghost ring. I have shot with both ghost ring and express style sights wich is basically what Randy is explaining. Hands down ghost rings are faster and more precise.
Their is no need to focus at all on the rear sight, no need for developing muscle memory. Just look through the aperture and your eye will naturally center that front post.
It is ideal if it has a screw in aperature. Take the aperature out when out in the bush and precision isnt required.
I use a fairly narrow front post with some orange paint or nail Polish on it and can easily shoot both eyes open. If you put the screw in aperature back in you will have no problem out to 100 + yards. Try that with a big bead front sight and a big wide open rear sight and you will be struggling.

[longbow]

I have always liked "good" open sights. I like my Marlin 1894 open sights. I like my old Cooey model 60 .22 open sights and a few others. Generally I like a skinny blade with small bead and a reasonably large notch in the rear sight. My eye tends to put the bead at the center of the rear sight notch radius quite naturally as Randy says.

I'll open up the notch some and see if that does it. If so, I'll stick with simple. If not, I'll try a ghost ring rear sight. They aren't terribly expensive so no big loss if I don't like it.

When I work around to my "target" and "plinking" shotgun I may decide a scope is the way to go. Ellwood Epps has a Rossi rifled single shot 12 ga. (or had a couple of days ago). Not sure how they are for quality but I'd have to think similar to the H&R's which seemed to be pretty good with slugs. It'll be typical fast for 12 ga. twist though as everything else is.

Also going to pick up a Lee double cavity 0.600" RB so I can play with double ball loads and Tri-Ball loads. Good smoothbore fodder!

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

just a thought from an old bird/bowhunter...use the same sights you use on that longbow of yours! At short range on a probably moving bear ( the main reason for that shotgun combo you bought iirc ) the time you use trying to pick up sight picture probably reduces life expectancy an equivalent amount. Try it quickly from 15 _ 20 yds. On another topic if you buy a rifled barrel go with at least 20" or longer. That slow powder we use to move big slugs (especially Steel) likes room to burn or gives you muzzle blast that doesn't help anything, imo.

[pashiner]

I'll put in another vote for ghost ring/peep sights. Williams makes a nice one with the removable peep that leaves a ghost ring behind. I've got bad eyes too, and found that while scopes are nice to use, they have a tendency to destroy my glasses when mounted on a gun with real recoil. My varmint rifle now is the only scoped gun I own. Ghost rings or small aperture peeps for everything else. Clear focus on the same focal plane with or without glasses on, both eyes open shooting, and fast enough target acquisition that I can shoot clays with my 18" H.D. shotgun. What's not to like? Also when somebody borrows a gun from me, I no longer have to hear that dreaded phrase "hey I fixed your scope" when I get it back.

[longbow]

Hal:

Agreed! I doubt I'd be looking for a nice sight picture if a bear was charging... that is a point and shoot situation for sure. In that case having the rear leaf folded down would actually be beneficial I think... just the front blade with bead to catch the eye. The bead just over the receiver would be about right for that gun. The rear sight sits pretty low but was well set when I got the gun. My groups, while a bit large, were centered on the target at 50 yards so they are close anyway.

Once I get the rear sight opened up a bit and my M-CARBO spring set installed I'll try for groups again. There I want a good sight picture and have time to get one. I'll be taking the single shot along with the Slugster to compare groups since I know how the single shot shoots.

Also, contrary to my initial comments about the Slugster being pretty tight. There is some rattle there in the barrel to receiver fit. The way it goes together makes it a bit stiffer than my BPS or my son's 870 but when twisted/pushed fairly hard there is definitely slop between barrel and receiver. I'll try shimming that to tighten it up some. Not a big deal for smoothbore but every little bit helps.

Also, good point on barrel length Hal. If I go with a fully rifled barrel maybe the 24" is the best bet for my long range, sniper, varmint 12 ga. Mostly that is what is available for Mossbergs so far as I've found. I did find a shorter rifled barrel with rifle sights that IIRC was 20" but most are the 24" with cantilever scope mount.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

LB, shim the front barrel lug also. You do not want to put any bow in the barrel when you tighten the cap screw as the barrel seats in the receiver. Shim it between the barrel and the tube.

[megasupermagnum]

LB, shim the front barrel lug also. You do not want to put any bow in the barrel when you tighten the cap screw as the barrel seats in the receiver. Shim it between the barrel and the tube.

I have never heard of this before. I've shimmed between the barrel shank and receiver, but never at the magazine tube. The 500 would be the only shotgun this would work on.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The problem he's going to have with the Peep Sight is not the using of it, it will be the mounting of it.

If you have to drill and tap the receiver that is one problem. But getting the correct height to mate up with the Front Sight is the other bigger problem.

The Mossberg 590 A1 rear sight is most likely the one to use and we mounted one onto my Bro in laws M500 along with silver soldering the Mberg Front Sight onto the barrel. This gun only had a bead front sight to start with, so he had to do something

As far as the muscle memory part,,, there isn't any. The cheek weld is a product of correctly mounting the gun. If you do that right your eye will probably be lined up with the sights, and the sights will be aligned as well. Gun fit also comes up, and if these guns don't fit you right they will beat the snot out of you!!!.

I shoot aperture and open sights almost exclusively. For accuracy the Aperture Sights are easier to get to perform. People tend to study the sights trying to get the front to be in the center of the rear which defeats the purpose entirely. It automatically is centered by your eye. Open sights take a little more work, but if you mount the gun right, and the gun fits you right, the sights will be there when you look.

When you start talking accuracy there is some other factors that affect groups more than the type of sight. The type of target and where you hold on that target is one of the biggest contributors to good groups. This is true with open or aperture sights and also with Red Dots. and your POA is critical. See pic below. 5 shot group under 1" from a Mini 14 with a red dot sight!

with a post type front sight the correct target is a diamond and the point of aim should be to set the point of the diamond onto the front sight and center it, which takes care of windage, then obviously setting the diamond point on the front sight will take care of elevation for the purpose of shooting a group.

In the pic below I was holding the right edge of the Red Dot on the left corner of the diamond. The Dot was 3 MOA so the group printed 1.5" to the left of the point. The group is 1" high because the gun is zeroed at 200 yards.

Randy

[tomme boy]

I have never heard of this before. I've shimmed between the barrel shank and receiver, but never at the magazine tube. The 500 would be the only shotgun this would work on.
Pretty sure that is the gun he has. And yes that is the gun it works on. It is a little trick that is not known about. You are trying to get the barrel locked up as tight as possible.

If you look at just about every M500 gun out there there is going to be a little gap at that joint. You want to shim that joint to make it a solid locked joint. Don't be surprised if your gun does not shoot the same anymore after doing this. It may be better or worse.

[victorfox]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year for all!

Longbow, it's good to see your work!

Well, I don't know if it's feasible for your, but since it will probably take some of your time... Have you thought about using recycled HDPE for the wads? One could "melt and press" some into rods or round bars, using, say a 3/4" steel pipe, then turn the bar to diameter (.730 or thereabouts), then drill and cut at desired length. It's free material (milkjugs etc), and very workable. Taofledermaus even shot some pellet style slugs made from the material.

If this sounds undoable or plain stupid, please disregard it.

Success!

[victorfox]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year for all!

Longbow, it's good to see your work!

Well, I don't know if it's feasible for your, but since it will probably take some of your time... Have you thought about using recycled HDPE for the wads? One could "melt and press" some into rods or round bars, using, say a 3/4" steel pipe, then turn the bar to diameter (.730 or thereabouts), then drill and cut at desired length. It's free material (milkjugs etc), and very workable. Taofledermaus even shot some pellet style slugs made from the material.

If this sounds undoable or plain stupid, please disregard it.

Success!

[longbow]

I finally got some Brenneke'ized slugs put together!

I found some fairly dense felt used for under furniture legs so figured I'd try it.

I made a punch to produce 16 ga. wads (0.672" wads diameter) then punched out some felt and polyethylene disks.

I made a jig to punch centered holes for screw then assembled the slugs in a jig.

They turned out pretty well but if course shooting will tell the tail!

These are pretty easy to make so if they work well will get some more attention.

As always, I think consistency in the wads and attachment will be determining factors in success or failure.

Pic attached.

233853

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Longbow, you gunna still put those into a cup of some sort? Might I suggest a touch of moose snot or something like it on those felt wads. Kinda like the lubed/wax wads that alcan used to run.. might help things out the barrel.

Marko

[longbow]

Yes, these are wad slugs so into a shotcup they go. If I put anything on them I will likely tumble them in talcum powder or powdered graphite.

If they were full bore slugs I would use a lube of some sort melted into the felt for sure.

On that note, I always liked the original"Classic" Brenneke slug and would like a full bore attached wad slug so if these show promise I'll modify my full bore TC slug mould and try it too... and with lubed felt wads.

A nice thing about felt is that is compresses mostly linear rather than squishing out in every direction where the hot melt glue simply expands under pressure so does increase sidewall pressure. How much? Actually I have no idea but recovered wads indicate that it is substantial. Does it increase pressure? I have to think yes but so far I have not seen any sort of pressure signs or noticed more recoil, sticky extraction, etc. Possibly the expansion occurs at peak pressure as the slug is entering the bore and first short distance down the barrel then tapers off. I really don't know but I am also not pushing the pressure limits and have not seen anything to worry about.

These slugs will be loaded over a moderate charge of Blue Dot. I have to weight the completed slugs but I suspect they will be about an ounce to maybe 1 1/8 oz. total. I'll use a load recipe for a same wight slug or heavier.

Longbow

[rancher1913]

don't know how you get the wad perfectly centered but for the russian slugs I had a junk 12 gauge barrel that I cut a chunk out of. the slug goes in and then the wad, screw them together and then push out as one unit.

[longbow]

Pretty much as you describe. I use a sized punch through a bored tube to poke the centered hole in the wads, leave the punched wads in the tube, slip the slug in then run the wood screw through wads and into slug.

So far they look good but downrange results are what count. I should be able to get some shooting done next weekend to find out.

How did those Russian slugs work for you?

Longbow

[centershot]

Randy:

My Slugster has 18 1/2" barrel with rifle sights. A good combination for bear protection. Quick to acquire sight picture and simple.

I've painted the front sight white and plan to order a ghost ring rear sight. Williams makes a nice one. In the meantime I will try enlarging the slot in the rear leaf... or getting a leaf with larger slot. I am finding the sights difficult to see in anything but bright light.

Most of the Mossberg rifled barrels seem to be cantilever scope mount and 24" long. I don't want 24" especially if I have a scope. 22" is plenty and 20" even better in my opinion. If it is a "target" and "plinking" barrel the extra length is not a big deal but I'd still like shorter. A benefit of the cantilever barrels is that there is no front sight to move or remove if you shorten the barrel... just lop it off then re -crown. However, then a guy needs a scope or a red dot on the gun. I didn't want the extra expense, complication and "stuff" hanging of the gun but again, if it is a "target" and "plinking" gun that isn't so important and a scope is more precise than open sights (12 ga. varminter!?!)

Back on topic unlike my post above...

I plan to test out these Brenneke'ized Lee slugs in the cylinder bore smoothbore barrel. It would be interesting to see how they do in rifled barrel but I'd be surprised it they did as well as the Hammerheads. I suppose if they held 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards from rifled barrel I wouldn't be disappointed and if they'd do that from smoothbore I'd be dancing a jig! I don't expect I'll need new dancing shoes though!

Longbow

Longbow,
On the question of sights; I find that I have come full circle - from "bead on the barrel", to red dot, to scope, and now back to bead sight. Actually, two beads on a vent rib with the front stacked on top of the rear. It gives an instantaneous sight picture once you acquire the proper cheek weld, as Randy has stated. That's how I shoot the gun for skeet & trap and it just carries over when I load slugs for big game. It's thick cover here, my average shot at any game, large or small, is around 30 yards. I did scope my new-to-me M500 with the rifled bore, only for testing. Come huntin' time the 20" goes back on it! Even with 65 year old diabetic eyes the 2-bead system works well! I am going to replace my tri-focals with progressive lenses this time around though, a big THANKS! to randy for that tip!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes, I have found that the "Old Eyes" problem generally centers around "Technique, more than Physical Limitations."

Learning how to use the Front Sight is not something that you just start doing. It takes lots of practice to break habits that are decades old and embedded like ticks.

But just getting your glasses sussed out so you can actually see what's going on is the key thing that everyone can get done, and will improve your shooting immensely.

It also takes some time to adjust to Progressive Lenses. It took me about 6 mo before I could wear them full time for driving and I have a set of bifocals I used to use just for driving at night. I am getting them converted to progressives this week because the frames are nice Ray Ban Tortoise Frames and I will retire the black frames I've been wearing for the last few years.

The table on my Milling machine is bowed down on the ends when looking thru progressive lenses, and I have to make allowances for that when working. after a while your brain recalibrates and you don't have to think about this stuff.

I get my eyes checked at Costco and anyone can afford that. We have a place called "Santa Barbara Eyeglass Factory" locally and I will get the lenses made there for $60-70 in about 2 hours. Costco also makes glasses for reasonable prices as does Sam's Club.. There are usually local outfits that make glasses in most towns that don't charge an arm and a leg. Those same lenses made at one of the nationwide chains like "Lenscrafters" were more like $250 to $300. If you go to an Optometrist and buy your glasses there you will get hosed!

There is no need for anyone to be blind today because they can't afford decent glasses. Plenty of good places to get them.

Randy

[BigMrTong]

they look great, can't wait to see the results .. fingers X'd


I finally got some Brenneke'ized slugs put together!

I found some fairly dense felt used for under furniture legs so figured I'd try it.

I made a punch to produce 16 ga. wads (0.672" wads diameter) then punched out some felt and polyethylene disks.

I made a jig to punch centered holes for screw then assembled the slugs in a jig.

They turned out pretty well but if course shooting will tell the tail!

These are pretty easy to make so if they work well will get some more attention.

As always, I think consistency in the wads and attachment will be determining factors in success or failure.

Pic attached.

233853

Longbow

[longbow]

Thanks BigMrTong.

They don't look as nice as your 3D printed tail wads though. But for us guys without 3D printers these are pretty easy to make.

I am still having some trouble getting the felt to punch cleanly as is seems to "squirm" a bit while being punched. A guided punch or maybe rotating cutter in a drill press would do a better job. They aren't bad but not perfectly even and clean cut.

Testing will tell the tale! I'll post results when I have them.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Use a paddle bit running at max speed for your drill press... works for me as long as there is a good fit for your wad in the barrel piece.

[longbow]

Sorry, not understanding "paddle bit" for cutting wads. Would you explain to a simple old guy?

I was thinking of a bored to size tube sharpened like a punch but run in the drill press so turning while pushing through.

Now this "Brenneke'ized slugs" is a project near completion (unlike so many others!). Just got to load and shoot them now.

Thanks,
Longbow

[Markopolo]

LB, it’s a spade bit. The kind you would use for boring like 1/2 inch holes or larger through wood. The bit has a sharp fine tip that centers well if you use the right size inserted into a junk piece of 12g barrel. get the same size that just fits into a 12g barrel. Just don’t plan on using the bit for anything else after scraping the sides of the bit against the inside of the barrel piece. But they are cheap. I would show you my setup, but I can’t seem to find my chunk of barrel to take a pic... the spade bit fits inside, and the choke part of my barrel piece holds the felt wad tight. Kind of self centering.

[Markopolo]

Either a 5/8 bit or a 3/4 inch bit is the correct one if memory serves, but that depends on if your barrel piece is choked or not.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I once made a number of special cutters for punching large holes (1.5") in stacked paper. The punches looked a bit like these but with the cutting edge on the inside (and posed quite a challenge to grind).

You could make your own thin-walled, hardened punches and grind the teeth by hand on a bench grinder. An angled cut will slice through stuff much easier. Just ask Dr. Guillotin...
https://i.imgur.com/lpMFotY.jpg

[longbow]

Not sure if there is a hole saw that is correct inside diameter but they tend to have a nasty seam in them. Kinda looked at that briefly.

I'd be more inclined to turn my own then heat treat them. For 1/4" to maybe 3/8" felt wads I doubt teeth would be necessary but... I have been wrong before! It is certainly easy enough to try then if the cylindrical punches don't work well enough just set up a jig to get evenly spaced teeth using a bench grinder.

I'll try these ones first. Was hoping to have done that by now but so far haven't made it to the range. We're having a rather mucky winter this year. I may wait it out and just cast and load for now then when weather gets better go get stunned senseless by accumulated recoil... again!!

I get the type of bit you are talking about now but I think punches would be easier. I am thinking it may be best to punch or cut oversize wads and attach them to the slugs then do the final cutting with slug attached. My sized Lee slugs just fit into the new punch after I honed it out a bit so that should work well. That would keep slug and wads all together and all lined up as punched. cut squares from strips of felt could be center punched for screw and just a bit oversize then attached to the slugs with the extra just outside the punch.

More stuff to try!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: for cutting felt or any other soft fibrous material you need knife type of cutter. IF you could chuck up a gasket punch in your frill press that would work.

Since you need a custom size you will probably have to make it on your lathe and it may take more that one attempt to get the size right. The ID is obviously the size you want but the bevel on the cutting edge needs to be on the outside of the tool. If you put the bevel on the inside of the hole it will compress the material down to the ID of the tool and that may be a desirable thing to do as well.

You can make this easily on your lathe out of any available steel you have laying around. It doesn't need to be hard as you won't be doing that much with it and you can easily resharpen it by putting it back in the lathe and using a stone on it.

You don't need to spin this at warp speed. 150-300 or even 600 rpms will work just fine. Cut a piece of 4x4 about 1" thick for the back up plate so when you punch thru the tool doesn't have to try to cut cross grain.

After you figure out what size it needs to be and test it and are satisfied maybe you can make a new one out of O1 drill rod that you can harden with just a torch and some oil. You can usually get O1 from any industrial supply co. McMaster Carr sells it and I use .375 Precision Ground O1 for the guide rods on my Loading presses.

IF you need any more ideas? jsut ask. I am full of them.

Randy

[longbow]

Already made a hammer type punch out of a piece of my old Jimmy axle. So far not hardened, and machined as is... I didn't anneal it. From past experience I know I can heat red then quench and temper to get significantly harder and if I do it I'd likely pack it in charcoal to put a bit of a case on it. Sharpening will take the case off the outside bevel but it will remain on the inside.

It is a conventional punch with bevel on the outside.

I found that 16 ga. nitro card wad diameter is 0.672" so made my punch I.D. to 0.672".

Coincidentally the Lee slug sizeer I made sizes to 0.670" which means I can attach oversize wads to slugs then run the slug into the punch cavity and final punch wads so all is in-line. Even using a form to screw wads on things squirm a bit but punching all together should give the best results... I think.

The hammer punch does compress things some and they do "squish" a bit so you are right about using a thin wall tube type cutter in a drill press, that is likely a better route to go and slice rather than directly punch and shear.

Slugs are ready to test. Now just waiting for decent weather to get out and shoot.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

The axle was made from 4340 Cro Moly it was originally about 40-45 Rc. More than enough for the punch.. Making it so it will rotate will give you smoother cuts than directly punching it. Punching compresses the material, but spinning the punch will compress it less. Might work better for you.

Randy

[longbow]

Well, I finally got around to weighing these guys! Fully assembled with 2 x 1/4" felt wads and 2 thin polyethylene disks they weight 440 grs. +/- a bit. I'll use 1 oz. slug load data. Once weather gets more tolerable I'll shoot some. It is supposed to go to -20 C in the next few days so I doubt I'll be shooting this weekend.

Might make up some more slugs though... and will load up slugs and double ball loads.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Yea yea LB.. don’t let a bit of cool weather slow ya down... go get em tiger..

[longbow]

Well, they are loaded up now and ready to go.

It is only -11 C so tolerable but I'll wait a bit as I have about... hmmm...

- 10 modified and Brenneke'ized 7/8 oz. Lee slugs as cast
- 2 modified and sized to 0.672" paper patched brenneke'ized 7/8 oz. Lee slug loads
- 20 double 0.600" RB loads
- knurled and sized to bore Paradox slug loads
- possibly another 10 as cast Paradox slug loads to run through my Slugster

Enough to keep me out there for a couple hours anyway. Warmer weather is coming soon! We'll see tis weekend but likely another week away.

I'm not as hardy as you Alaskans! Not anymore anyway.

Longbow

[Petander]

My office today:

235509

235510

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yeah, Canada, Alaska? doesn't it normally get cold up there alot? You's guys up there should be used to this weather by now, haven't you lived there your whole lives?

The guy from Finland isn't wussing out! He's tough!

Enough of this hiding indoors,,, get out and brave the elements that's what heavy clothes are for,,, right?

Don't your cars have heaters? What the hey?

We need info, and you need to get out there and do the testing, and give it to us!,,, Damit!

It's 66 F here in Ojai CA today and I'm freezing.

Randy

[longbow]

I've shot in -15C weather before (that's 5 degrees F) which is cold enough for me! With wind it is miserable if a guy is just sitting and shooting. Cross country skiing, snowshoeing or about any activity that keeps you moving its different but as I get older I find sitting and shooting in the cold is not much fun. Don't mind a few shots but I've got some serious testing to do here!

Yup, got car heaters, got warm clothes, got all of it and use it. However, the older I get the less desire I have to sit on a cold bench holding a cold gun and shooting. Down to freezing it isn't too bad and even maybe to -5 C but after that... call me a wuss!

I got everything loaded and may make up some more of these Brenneke'ized slugs while I wait. I'll likely get 'er done next weekend.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

That's more like it! :>)

Randy

[Markopolo]

Lol at the Californian...

LB, do t try to do all your stuff in one shot.. go out there, shoot a few of one of them, and then go get warm.. dont havta take a bucket load of everything.. lots of guys are sitting around waiting with baited frosty breath for your work. You have a captive audience, better take advantage... lol

Now, enough pep talk, get your long johns on and take a couple handfuls of them lee slugs and let’s see the dance!!!.. :bigsmyl2:

[longbow]

Hahaha! Ya I've been doing a lot of talking and not much shooting lately!

I'll git er done shortly regardless of weather but I doubt it will be this weekend. Most likely next week or next weekend. Depends on my work... I haven't had a lot lately so if that trend continues I'll get to the range next week and get some shooting done.

I'm thinking I should make up and load a few more of those Lee slugs too. I've got lots cast so its just assembly then load.

I mentioned in my other thread that I've done a bit of work to the Slugster too. Its got the M*Carbo spring set in it now, I painted the front sight white and filed the rear sight leaf a little larger so now I can see things better.

I'll test the first batch of Brenneke'ized Lee slugs in my single shot because I know where and how it shoots but I want to get the Slugster in on this too so more slug loads it is.

Less talk... more shooting! Its coming!

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Well, don’t give up the speeches though... we like them too... :popcorn:

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: What exactly do you do for work?

Don't worry about being "Naturally Blabby." You should have seen me at the SHOT Show.

I told the same stories 100 times .

I gave out 200 of my "Understanding Liberal Behavior" cards along with numerous explanations. I bent Chris Cox of the NRA-ILA's ear as well as his CoS and CA Reps ears for 30+ minutes talking about fighting CA's gun Laws and Democrat Tactics during the last election and the Cards were a big hit with them as well.

For those who haven't seen one, these are business card sized ($9.95/500 at Vista Print) and say

Understanding Liberal Behavior
Rule #1 Liberals screw up everything they touch.
Rule #2 Whatever they accuse you of, they are already doing.
Rule #3 Liberals will lie about anything, no matter how insignificant.
Rule #4 If all else fails, they call you a Racist.

No argument from anyone on these points.

We have to deal with these idiots here in CA all the time, It helps to let people know what they are looking at.

Randy

[longbow]

Okay then wordy I remain!

I made up 10 more Brenneke'ized Lee slugs last night but 1 oz. this time... well, not quite made up but all drilled and ready for wads which I will add today.

It looks like more talk and no shooting this weekend. We have -7 and 40 km/hr wind today and windy again tomorrow. The coast is getting pounded with 90 km/hr winds so we're not that bad.

I'll be all loaded up and ready to go when the weather calms down. After this just plain cold won't be bad!

Randy: I am a machine designer. I work for a local consulting company mostly service Teck Metals in Trail, B.C. Teck has the biggest lead/zinc smelting and refining complex in the world and the last remaining lead refinery in North America... or maybe one of two. I believe all primary lead refineries in the US have shut down but there was one other in Eastern Canada that was still running though I believe they **** down too.

My background is custom materials handling equipment for the lead and zinc industries mostly. I have done work for power plants and pulp mills too.

I design tricky little machines mostly: stackers, rotators, lifters, placers, whatever. I also do a lot of improvements to older designs which is what has been keeping me employed (more or less) for the last few years. Long story but I started out working for Cominco in Trail in 1981. I really enjoyed that, got laid off in big cuts in 1986 due to low seniority so moved up North for work for 3 years then back to Castlegar to work for CESL engineering (owned by Cominco). Cominco got bought by Teck, CESL shutdown and laid us all off, Simons hired us at reduced wages and benefits, AGRA bought Simons and reduced our benefits, AMEC bought AGRA and it happened again though AMEC was better than Simons or AGRA. I quite AMEC and went to work for Teck, quit Teck to go back to AMEC (they offered me huge money), AMEC laid me off in a downturn in 2013 due to massive budget cuts. I should have stuck it out at Teck but life was miserable.

Oddly Teck has kept me more or less steadily employed since 2013 both as a Teck casual and through Redwood Engineering. I know the plants and systems and am one of the last "old guys" still working so I know what needs to be done and how to do it.

I should be retired by next fall if I get working steady again shortly.

So there it is in a nutshell.

I'll post a range report after shooting these slugs... SOON!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

We have so much in common! I am also a machine designer however my stuff is mostly Machine Shop stuff IE: Omniturn CNC Lathe, and automated machines for producing "Ultrasonic Bonding Tools" for the Semi Conductor industry., for Gaiser Tool Company, now Coors-Tek.

That was all in the past and now I make parts for the RAM Missile System which is a shipboard defense system.

Then there is my Reloading Press which has been a big hit here at Cast Boolits and elsewhere.

This gun work we do is simply fun to fill in between jobs.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

I suspect your job is a lot more fun than mine! I do like solving problems and designing "a better mousetrap" to fix plant problems but over the years the reception has gone from being an in plant expert and being thanked for solving problems that have sometimes plagued the plant for 20 years or more to getting comments like "Why did it take so long and why did it cost so much?" when doing the same as a consultant.

No appreciation for the innovation now. Maybe not quite true... the guy that has been giving me most of my workload for the last couple of years is good to work for but in general the attitude seems to be that engineering is a necessary evil that is to be avoided if possible.

I get a lot of messes to fix up. I am looking forward to retirement at this point.

Anyway, yes the reloading and shooting part is fun.

Do you ever get to "pull the trigger" on that RAM Missile System? I think that could be a big stress reliever!

I just finished assembly of 10 Brenneke'ized Lee 1 oz. slugs so now have both 7/8 oz. (weigh 440 grs. complete) and 1 oz. (yet to be weighed but about 60 grs. of added tail wad so about 500 grs. complete). I used 1 oz. load data for the 7/8 oz. slug and will likely use Lyman 525 gr. load data for the 1 oz. slug.

Okay went and weighed them ~ 483 grs. and very consistent weight! I forgot... not quite 60 grs. of tail wad, there is a post added and slightly longer/thicker skirt on the 7/8 oz. slug due to change of core pin, Just the added post on the 1 oz. so not quite as heavy as I predicted.

Pic:

235652

Oh yeah and I used 2 layers of plastic disk on the bottom this time. I may see if I can find some thicker plastic for that bottom disk to make it stiffer. The 7/8 oz. are loaded so they go as they are.

Mighta got out to the range tomorrow but had to deal with a hot water tank issue today and didn't get my range membership. Next week it is. I'll see if Ginsing wants to join me.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

In your pic, is it an optical illusion? Or are those slugs leaning to one side?

[Hogtamer]

I think the shadows give that effect. Those slugs look awesome Kent, I just wonder if those sized Lee skirts are too thin now?

[longbow]

Markopolo:

They look fine to me. I think maybe you've been into the Everclear a bit too much?

My photography skills are a bit lacking... or maybe I was into the Everclear a bit too much? I make my own from sugar wash.

Hal:

These aren't sized just as cast. I made the sizer to remove taper which may or may not be a good thing. The wads I have don't have hardly any taper to the petals but my Lee slugs taper from 0.685" at the nose to 0.568" IIRC on the 7/8 oz. and a little more 0.672" I think on the 1 oz. They have about the same nose and skirt dimensions as the Lyman sabot slug. None of the wads I have show taper like that but Randy said his Federals match the Lyman slug perfectly, so should these then... but not Winchester, Pacific Verelite or Claybusters.

I'd had some pretty good success with some straight sided home made slugs paper patched to good fit so decided to try the same with the Lee's. The plan was to take them down to remove all taper. That meant about 0.665" to 0.668". That was a no go! The slugs cracked during sizing. Just a bit too much squish. This was with straight ACWW so maybe they would have been okay at 50/60 or some softer alloy but I decided I would open up the sizer a bit so rebored to 0.670" and that was just enough. It didn't quite take all the taper out of the 7/8 oz. slug but did on the 1 oz. I can't understand why Lee wouldn't have put the same taper on both slugs. Since the 7/8 oz. is shorter then the nose should be small since it will slide further into same size wad... or make the skirt larger with same size nose and set it further up the wad. I can't imagine lighter payload wads have thicker petals with more taper than heavy payload wads.

Since I punch them through from the base the sizing should actually thicken the skirt... if it didn't crack! But of course cracking during sizing is another whole issue. If the sized slug has little cracks or is on the verge it could fail in the bore or on impact. Not a big deal for targets but if hunting a guy doesn't wan't his slug fragment uncontrollably. And neither wants pieces flying out the muzzle! The sized slugs now appear to be okay but I'd have to do some shooting into wood and water or wet paper or something to see if they do break up too easily.

So far I can't say I've seen a lot of difference in accuracy between sized then patch to fit straight Lee's over as cast. The as cast need one wrap of paper in a Winchester 1 1/4 oz. yellow wad for good fit.

These and the 7/8 oz. modified I have loaded are as cast with one wrap of paper to snug them up then the attached wads. The attached wads are dense felt for under furniture legs (all I could find here) and disks punched from a kid's snow slider which is thin polyethylene. I made a punch to punch out 16 ga. wads which are 0.672" according so shotgun sites.

I'd like thicker plastic disks/washers but limited access here. I was thinking that pop or water bottle caps may be thick enough but not sure of diameter for punching. Don't have any around right now. Hard leather might work too but a bit extravagant to shoot many. I have some hard heavy leather left over from my quiver making but it is a bit thick.

So short question with long response.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Guys: Go here and play the video, it tells you everything you need to know.

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/ram

I made all the Guide Door Latches (Front and Rear doors on the launch tube.)
I made many of the doors on the Electronics Cabinet on the bottom of the Launch Tube, as well as numerous internal piece parts. I also made most of the parts for the loading hardware.

Here's a pic of one of the best. It was machined out of a solid piece of 3" dia 316 SS! The kid who made this is good!!!

My replacement A5 arrives Monday and then a 10 day wait to appease the turds in Sacramento.

Randy

[Hogtamer]

Sounds good to go LB! Those just might be winners, I never thought much of the big taper either. Can't wait till your weather breaks so you won't!

[longbow]

That does look nice Randy! Gotta love the military and especially US military for getting things done "right". I'm used to dealing with castings and fabrications to make widgets, not CNC machining out of solid. Many years ago I got assigned to do shop inspections for a project I was on and was in a CNC machine shop... nothing but CNC equipment making aircraft components. Everything was machined out of solid. The machine operator would take a block of aluminum (or whatever exotic alloy), lock it in the chuck or on the table, close the doors/shields, turn the machine on and walk away. The parts were all made pretty much automatically after that, possibly with a repositioning at some point. All parts were tagged then locked in cupboards after they were finished.

I was in the EBCO shop in Richmond B.C. for inspection as well. It is a huge shop and is the biggest in Western Canada. While I was touring with the plant engineer a machinist called him over to a vertical boring machine that was facing a large flange about 5' diameter IIRC. He was saying he couldn't get any better surface finish so this would have to do (it looked like a mirror to me!). Turns out it was a part for a pump for a US navy aircraft carrier and made of some proprietary alloy so they had to collect and bag all the chips and send them back with the parts! Not sure why US navy parts were contracted to a Canadian outfit but I guess competitive bidding?

Speaking of big shops, many years ago I was working on a project for a Tazmanian zinc plant and needed to get a 40' diameter ring beam machined. The only place i could find was a machine shop in an Oregon ship yard. "Yeah we can do that no problem." the nice man said... a 40' diameter ring beam! Big machine that one!

It is nice to see the CNC machined components and what you can make out of solid these days. Just look at Mihec moulds for example. I doubt the finest gunsmith/mould maker could produce moulds to the precision that Mihec does... or NOE or Accurate and in those quantities. The precision and repeatability is amazing!

Once a gain I digress.

Hal: while I don't really like the taper, if these Brenneke'ized slugs work it shouldn't be an issue. The attached wads run 0.672" and so are very snug in wad and bore then the slug nose is also in contact so as long as it is all aligned when assembled it should be good. What I do like about the Lee slugs is being HB they should collapse before damaging a choke. Like I said, I am not sure what would happen if a hard cast Lee in wad hit a full choke but my guess is the slug would lose the fight. A hard cast bore size RB or solid slug... well, the choke might lose that conflict! Once day I'll test that out with an old cheap gun.

Let's flash back to the Paradox guns ~ they ran 0.740" bore with rifled choke running down to 0.690". Being rifled not the whole slug gets squished to 0.690" but that's a lot of squish for a thin shotgun like barrel to withstand, yet they did.

It warmed up to -4 C today! However, I have spent at least half the day tinkering with our water heater. The pilot light went out a few days ago and wouldn't stay lit. It would light up and the water heater run but when it finished out would go the pilot light. I took it apart yesterday and cleaned everything out but no better. Put a new thermocouple in today and all looked good then out the pilot light went! I restarted it and it seems okay now. We'll see. The only other thing I can see doing this is the thermal switch. If the new thermocouple doesn't fix it then I'll try the thermal switch. If that doesn't do it then I guess I call the plumber.

So, even if I had planned to go to the range today it would have been kiboshed.

Tomorrow I have to drive my wife to see a specialist in Penticton about 3 1/2 hours away so no shooting tomorrow!

Next week or next weekend I'll git 'er done. I'll be calling Ginsing to see if he wants to hook up for a day of shooting.

Longbow

[spoon]

I just retired and reading LB's and Randy's posts have reminded me that my happy time working was in front of the computer working CAD software and interecting with the machine shop guys (and gals). I designed fixturing, little devices that kind of thing. The called me a Process Improvement Engineer. It amazes me how folks that should know better are allowed to design anything! Back to the good stuff. I have a Winchester 1300 that I reamed and cut threads for RemChoke tubes. Using a full choke tube a lot of slugs (mostly Foster type) have gone out that barrel with no damage that I can see. Switching to a Modified tube I can't see any accuracy difference between the two. I have been following this for awhile and can't wait for results. GO SPRING!!

[Markopolo]

Go Slugs!!! And come on March!!!

[Sitzme]

I am yet another former machine designer. It is not a big surprise to see a lot of curious minds here. I suspect there are more than a few tool and die guys also. Not dissing any other honest occupations mind you as the world has a lot of needs to fill. I miss the work but not the stress and make up for the need for creativity by having too many hobbies and a small shop at home.

Good luck with the slugs. When you get those quarter size groups I will be cranking up production with your recipe! ;^)

[longbow]

Hahahaha! "Quarter size groups"! I wish! If I can keep slugs within 6" group sat 100 yards from a smoothbore I'll be happy. Any better than that is gravy!

I would have sworn I read an article on Lyman Foster slug accuracy with claims of 4" group sat 100 yards many years ago. The only info I can find in my books though is a claim by Lyman that a good slug load using their Foster slug and load recipes is 4" groups at 50 yards. Well, I'm not sure if I failed of if that is shall I say optimistic on Lyman's part.

I started out with a Lyman Foster slug mould and noted that it was a tad undersize casting at 0.705". So I though "How on earth could that be accurate?" and it wasn't! I used all components per several Lyman recipes and never got under about 8" at 50 yards! Well, not quite true... I paper patched slugs to fit the bore and groups closed up nicely but I did still get frequent fliers I attributed to damaged patches from opening the crimp or maybe not releasing properly.

I get far better accuracy from good round ball moulds. In fact I get what Lyman claims their Foster will do at 50 yards which is 4" groups with good round ball loads. Sad that their slug using their load data won't... for me anyway.

So far the best accuracy I have seen is using a couple of different brands of factory Fosters, Brenneke Classic slugs as a reloading component many, many years ago and most recently AQ slugs. I've gotten sub 6" groups at 100 yards with my Browning BPS with I/C slug barrel and Federal Fosters (not Tru-Ball) and AQ slugs. Been trying to reproduce those with home brewed slugs and loads but not there yet. Maybe the Brenneke'ized Lee's will do it?

I'm liking some of the new Russian slugs moulds as well and after watching Taofledermaus testing the "fire Hydrant" Gualandi copy I was pretty impressed. I'd think all those attached tail wad slugs should give similar accuracy since the only real difference is the shape of the slugs.

Have you seen BigMrTong'ss Lee slugs with 3D printed tail wads? He's been doing well with those.

I've tried similar using hot melt glue tail wads cast on in a form and my Lee slug accuracy improved but using hot melt glue is a bit tedious and it is hard to get really consistent tail wads mostly due to bubbles in the glue.

I will hopefully be testing these out next weekend which is becoming a theme! I keep saying next weekend but our weather is not behaving at all! We've gotten lots of late snow and quite cold as well. it is n't so much the cold or snow that bothers me except to get to our range I have to climb a rather steep hill about 100 yards or better long packing my stuff and in 2' of snow... that part I don't like! Winter should be done soon though. So I am hoping weather is decent next weekend so I can get some shooting done.

"Quarter size groups" Hahahaha! Yeah, we'll see!

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Power of Positive Thinking!!!

[MusicMan]

Power of Positive Thinking!!!

It doesn't work! If it did there would already be a wall.[smilie=1:

[longbow]

Okay then... I finally made it to the range! Yay!

We had a decent day today and it runs out some people have driven up to the range so there wasn't too hard a slog through the snow. Just follow the tire tracks. We peasants don't get keys to the gate so have to climb a bout a 100 yard long fairly steep hill which is why I've been waiting for decent weather to go.

Enough chit chat! Its been a long time since I got shooting but its done... or some of it done anyway.

I decided to travel light so only took the Brenneke'ized 7/8 and 1 oz. Lee slugs and two ball loads. Got more to test next time out!

Details:

- gun is smoothbore Mpossberg Slugster with 18 1/2" barrel with rifle sights
- all hulls were Federal field hulls with paper basewad 2 3/4" and roll crimped
- attached wads were two punched 1/4" hard felt with polyethylene punched disks on each side

- 7/8 oz.: modified Lee 7/8 oz. slug with post added to drive key and felt and plastic wads screwed on; weight 440 gr.; one wrap of printer paper to snug slug up in wad/bore fit
- wad Winchester yellow 1 1/4 oz. wad
- Powder: SR4756 @ 34.5 grs. (Lee dipper volume)
- Primer: Federal 209A

- 1 oz.: modified Lee 1 oz. slug with post added to drive key and felt and plastic wads screwed on; weight 483 grs.
- wad: Winchester yellow 1 1/4 oz. wad
- Powder: 33 grs. SR4756 (Lee dipper volume)
- Primer: Federal 209A

25 yard accuracy was good for the 7/8 oz. and acceptable for the 1 oz. Pics attached.

236772236773

Hmmmm the 1 oz. pic is turned. Oh well!

50 yard accuracy was... well... not good! No pics attached. Holes through the target were nice and round at both ranges so no apparent wobbling of slugs. I did have some trouble with the rear sigh picture again and I will take some of the blame for bad 50 yard groups but not all. I can't blame the gun either I don't think because I added a 0.005" brass shim between barrel and receiver to tighten the fit up which it did very well. It is now a snug push fit.

Shim pic:

236774

I had also filed the rear leaf a little deeper and wider for better visibility but it needs a bit more. And I inadvertently left the rear sight high so the gun was shooting about a foot high at 50 yards which meant I had to aim at a lower target on the same paper but that really should affect group size.

I only shot one group of three for each of the slugs at 25 yards thinking that the 50 meter groups would be better based on what I got at 25 meter. Wrong! 25 meter groups were high but not bad groups. It took me a few shots to realize how high they were going at 50 yards and that group size was large.

I shot 10 of each from the bench along with the 2 ball loads which I'll report on in that thread.

Recovered wads look great so no issues there but I'll look closer just in case.

Not quite sure what went wrong but am guessing the the felt and/or plastic wads just aren't consistent enough or maybe not lined up just perfect even though they were screwed to the slugs in a close fit tube.

Nonetheless, it was good to get out shooting and the holes were round so I will do some more work and load and test these again. They've got potential and are pretty easy to make.

The load was reasonably stout and I couldn't detect any differences in recoil or performance so I have to think the load is decent.

I did find one wad that had a petal folded in during seating of the slug so that wouldn't help. I'll have to be more careful when seating slugs. Having said that I think I only assembled one or two loads by seating wad then slug. After I pushed the slug into the wad then seated the whole works. This was probably the first one or two I put together.

I'll give these another go to try to improve 50 meter performance.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Kent, glad you got to burn some powder! And I like that shim. While I don't own a Mossy anything that tightens up a little sloppiness has gotta be a good thing. Don't be discouraged because of the Lees. They are really frustrating. Even with a good session going you can get the unexplained couple of flyers. After I started loading the Lymans I've had no desire to return to the Lees even though I killed a deer and a handful of hogs with them. Pack along some of your .678 RB loads next time and get that rifled choke finished!!

[longbow]

Hal:

It was good to burn some powder alright! It has been far too long!

I'll be doing more testing of these as they are pretty easy to make and if the wads are consistent and attached in line they should be very Brenneke like.

I'm betting the attached wads just aren't consistent enough. Im using a gasket punch and some wads "squirm" a bit when being punched so have a slopey shape on the cut edge.

Yes, I have to make a jig to sharpen my rifling cutter and make shoes to stabilize the rifling head or make a multi tooth cutter.

In the mean time I'm thinking seriously about getting a fully rifled barrel for the Slugster. I am liking this Mossberg!

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK you done good. You've got to make a drill jig so you can get your holes in the wads dead center. Does your lathe have collets?

I drilled all my BW12 wads with a 1/16" pilot hole using a 47/64 collet, and those big slugs with a #19 drill to clear the #8 screws in the same collet. I know all of these are Dead Center.

Hell you're an engineer figure out a jig to get them right on. How about boring a hole the same size as the OD of your wads Like 1/4" deep in some material preferably metal, and then in the same setup drill a 1/16 hole for the drill to go thru.

I just know you'll figure this out and we're waiting!

Randy

[Markopolo]

Any day at the range is better then the best day at work.. good for you!!!

[Cap'n Morgan]

The holes are round, meaning the slugs are stable in flight. I suspect the Winchester wads somehow interfere with the release of the slug. You could try cutting the petals partly off at the bottom to aid the wads in opening up. (I still think full-bore slugs is the way to go with a smooth bore)

[tomme boy]

Did you shim the magazine tube yet? If not then you are wasting your time.

[longbow]

"Any day at the range is better then the best day at work.. good for you!!!" I am with you there!!! Retirement can't come soon enough! Just a few months to go now.

Randy... My wads are drilled in a jig. I think the problem is more in the punching. The felt sometimes "squishes" to one side as it compresses under the hand held gasket punch and that leaves a tapered slightly uneven circumference on the wads. They are not as cleanly and consistently cut as I'd like. I'm thinking the drill press idea so rotating and guided as the punch is cutting. I also want to add a needle in the center to poke through the exact center of the wads at the same time.

Yes, Cap'n I am with you there. I like loading wad slugs but I have to think that the wad is another variable and that full bore is better. I will be modifying my full bore TC slug mould to add a post and try these felt wads on a full bore slug. I will also try the Randy/Petander/BT approach using the cushion leg screwed to the slug from the nose down.

I have so much to test now I don't want to keep changing things because I'll be chasing my tail (or maybe I am now so want to stop!). What I have been trying to do is repeat some of the success full slug loads with some minor tweaks though I have to admit that I have introduced a few totally new slugs and methods lately. DOH! I am my own worst enemy!

I have to get an order into BPI for some full bore felt and cork wads, full bore gas seals and some other stuff. I was trying to avoid building wad columns for full bore slugs but if I use the attached wad method I should only need a couple of filler wads between gas seal and slug so not too difficult.

tomme boy... no, I didn't shim the mag tube but now that you have reminded me I will get to it. The barrel shimming did tighten things up noticeably though but I'll do the mag tube as well. Thanks for reminding me.

Of course another variable here is that I was using the Slugster this time where in the past I've done all my testing with my single shot gun. I had planned to take both but didn't want to carry both up the hill to the range, in the snow, in my pajamas, on a dark and stormy night... I wanted to use the Mossberg because I like it but I really don't know where it shoots yet so not the best of ideas.

I've got lots more slugs cast so there will be more to come!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

What exactly do you shim on the Mag Tube? It just screws into the receiver.

Since the sights are on the barrel I really don't see how the barrel being slightly loose can affect where the gun shoots. It should shoot to the sights, shouldn't it?

I can see if the rear sight was mounted to the Receiver that would make a difference.

Randy

[longbow]

"What exactly do you shim on the Mag Tube? It just screws into the receiver." My question too! I didn't think of it until after. I was thinking Remington style with the ring sliding over the mag tube but yes, the Mossberg screws into the end ot the mag tube and since shimming mine seems very solid.

Seems to me someone (maybe tomme boy?) commented about shimming between barrel and mag tube? I'll read back to see if that comment was in this thread or another and just what it was. That shim certainly tightened my gun up as is though.

There is a tab on the back of the square hole to help push the shim into place with the barrel. Otherwise it would be really hard get the barrel in place with the shim. A pop can shim went in quite easy and tightened things up some but it was very thin and delicate so I replaced it with thicker brass.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

On the Mossbergs mag tubes once the barrel is mounted there is a gap between the barrel and the tube. What you want to do is make a washer to take up that space. The barrel seats up against the receiver so it can not go any farther into to the receiver. So you measure the thickness between the front of the mag tube to the front of the barrel lug.

And you can actually "tune" your barrel by the thickness of the washer. I found this out with a 20ga mossberg I had. I had a bunch of shims for clocking a muzzlebreak. They were of varying thickness. It just depends on how far you want to take this.

Along with the receiver shimming and pinning some barrels to the receivers is other ways to make these guns shoot more consistently. Most of these barrels are just hanging there and not mounted solid. Look at the Ithaca's how they screw together. There is a reason why they shoot so good!

[megasupermagnum]

Deja Vu. I feel like we just went through this a few months ago. Shimming or pinning at the receiver? Absolutely a good idea if that's what you want. Shimming at the mag tube? You are still the only person I've ever seen recommend this. It's going to be a pressure point regardless, so I just don't see it.

[tomme boy]

TarHunt thinks pinning is a good idea. If the owner of Dixie Slugs was still around he could tell you about shimming the mag tube. I heard of it before he was talking of it when he was still around testing his killer slugs in the beginning.

From what he was saying. Each of these guns the tubes are screwed in a little different. So the gap can be different on each gun. So when you tighten the barrel on each gun it can bend the barrel and effect the way it shoots. Then if you take the barrel off you are not going to get it the same the next time you put it back on with the gap there. If you make a shim to take up that space it will always be the same amount of torque being put on the lug and barrel.

I am not the only one that knows of this. The reason you have not heard of this is not that many people play with Mossbergs. More people play with Remingtons.

[longbow]

tomme boy:

Yes, I was thinking of the loose ring around the Remington mag tube (and my Browning) when you brought this up before. I was thinking that a shim would go into that gap so the end of the barrel wouldn't rattle.

The Mossberg is a different critter though since the barrel retainer screws into the mag tube.

Mine was reasonably stiff if I shook it or just gave the barrel a thump but if I grabbed it and levered a bit the whole works wobbled quite a bit! More like a lot!

The brass shim has eliminated any free wobble though I am sure under recoil the little bit of play left is still going to have some effect. Without pinning or epoxy that isn't going to go away totally. Now with open rifle sights on the smoothbore barrel I am not sure just how detrimental that is. With a saddle mount scope on a rifled gun and unshimmed/unpinned barrel is going to settle a little differently after each shot. Or for that matter a saddle mount scope on smoothbore gun would have the same issue though with somewhat less accuracy potential. That's why cantilever mounts are the ticket there but even then I think if the barrel has noticeable play it has to have some effect during recoil and slug barrel time.

In short, no manufacturer I know of makes rifles or handguns with loose barrels.

It is another hurdle shotgun slug shooters have with pump guns. Of course bolt guns and single shots don't have the issue.

I'll do a little checking on what may help and I just may try your washer idea. it is pretty simple to add a washer and I have a lathe so I can make what I want for diameter and thickness... unless it gets really thin but no reason for that I don't think. I doubt I'll go as far as pinning, though if removable socket head screws... maybe. Again, with smoothbore barrel I don't think there is near as much to be gained as with rifled barrel but I guess better accuracy is better accuracy even if not tack driving accuracy.

Its all good stuff!

Longbow

[tomme boy]

Mine was rifled. And when I shot full bore slugs through it the barrel was twisting in the receiver. I had to pin the barrel to the receiver to stop it. I did two pins. The aluminum Mossberg uses is really soft. So you have to make sure to use a pin that is going to be a really tight press fit. I also used some of the green locktight for sleeves to help hold it together.

I don't have the gun anymore. One of my best friends does. He kills a few deer every year with it. But he just buys some Hornady sabots and goes hunting. What fun is that?

[megasupermagnum]

It's a blessing, and a curse. For a dedicated slug gun, no doubt bolt it. For what you are going for, a quickly removable barrel with no tools is a huge asset. You never know when you will drop it nose first into the muck.

[longbow]

Yes, there is another point... barrel torque from rifled guns. If the barrel is a loose fit to receiver that is another source of inaccuracy. There I can see pinning being a good solution.

Makes the point that a dedicated rifled slug gun really should be all locked down like a rifle... and in fact a good single shot or bolt gun would be the obvious better choice. However, then there is that lack of versatility for buckshot or birdshot.

I do wish I could afford a Paradox gun! A well regulated side by with express sights and Paradox chokes. Even if my slow twist rifled choke tube works I wouldn't likely be able to apply it to a side by and then even if I could barrel regulation would be the stumbling block. Oh well.

Got to make up some more Brenneke'ized slugs and give them another go. I'll try some full bore slugs this time too.

For the Lee wad slugs I am thinking I should weaken the petals a bit. Most seemed to open up well but there were several that didn't. I have to think that if the wad is not opening and discarding quickly then it will be affecting groups. If these are just making it then even those that opened wide may be doing so inconsistently. Maybe a tighter fitting slug would do it?

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

After looking at my HD M500 I see what you are talking about. There is a .006-008 gap between the barrel Lug and the mag tube. I'll make a shim from brass shim sock to fit in there.

Lots going on with these slug launchers.

I found out about that TarHunt outfit the other day. Their $3500 Slug gun is supposed to be 1/2 MOA with Lightfield slugs or so this guy on youtube says his is. Hard for me to believe that, but I've been wrong before, and if I saw it I'd tell the world about it. Then people would think I was FOS too. May not be far off on that?

Just when you think you finally know everything, the World comes along as slaps you back down into the mud.

There goes all your attaboys and you get to start over..

Randy

[longbow]

I spend way too much time in the mud!

Really I do!

[tomme boy]

Randy if that is all yours is you have a tight one! But then again you are a guy and live in Cali! LOL!!!!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Still tight over here!

Randy

[longbow]

Okay then... it's been a while!

I finally got to the range with some more Brenneke'ized Lee slugs and some Moose Minie clones. I'll report both here then see if I can find my Moose Minie clone thread... at least I think I started one!

I'll recap a bit on both the Lee Brenneke'ized slugs and the Moose Minie slugs.

Brenneke'ized Slugs

If you look back to the first post you will see the 7/8 oz. Lee slug cast from a mould that I modified the core pin for to create a post with screw hole for attaching tailwads. I wanted a post so I could either run a screw in part way then cast on a tailwad or screw on a wad Brenneke style from behind. I have modified both Lee 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. moulds. Weight increased by about 1/8 oz. or a little more. Don't have it handy and I'm typing so... I'll check later.

Initially I just added the post then had to chuck the slugs in my lathe to drill them. That was a pain so I added a pin to leave the screw hole. That works great!

So, I started with dense felt wads using the felt that goes under chair legs or appliances. That's the best I could find locally. Ideally Durofelt is the way to go. They have a felt used for shotgun wads. Anyway, I used the available felt and as usual had the problems with consistency... or lack of consistency, The felt squirms a bit when punched so I didn't get real clean cylindrical wads. I also didn't have a source of fairly thick softish plastic/rubber for washers so wound up using thin polyethylene from a kid's snow slider/Magic Blanket. It is a bit too thin so wrinkles easily.

So, my initial Brenneke'izing of both Lee slugs and full bore slugs suffered from less than perfect tailwads. Accuracy was okay but not great.

Back to the drawing board! Hot melt glue has been my go to material for tailwads and when good tailwads turn out accuracy from attached wad slugs can be quite good but it is difficult to get good and consistent tailwads without bubbles or shrinkage... this is not injection moulding! It is poor man's injection moulding.

I recently came up with an idea I have used for both cast on and screw on tailwads using the hot melt glue that has worked out quite well, make them overlength so bubbles rise into the waste area and shrinkage is in the waste area then cut it off. That seems to be resulting in much more consistent tailwads.

For this trip I had both screw on glue wads and cast on glue wads but unfortunately I didn't record info as well as I should have.

All shooting was done at 25 yards. Groups didn't start out as well as hoped so I stuck to close range.

Group #1

https://i.postimg.cc/V6YRBnNH/IMG-2142.jpg (https://postimg.cc/R3DKv3Kc)

Without the one low shot it isn't horrible!

Group #2

https://i.postimg.cc/R01dHXvH/IMG-2143.jpg (https://postimg.cc/jW5yV6wx)

I am going to largely blame myself here. I don't like the rear sight and have a bit of trouble with the bead. I have to open the rear sight some more so I can see the bead better. I think I held in two different spots for elevation. If the 3 high shots were lower that would be a good group but was it me or the slugs? I'll load more like this and try again.

Group #3

https://i.postimg.cc/WzywvywQ/IMG-2144.jpg (https://postimg.cc/8fh6dt3H)

Not quite sure what happened here! I would swear I shot 6 shots and have 5 empty hulls but...? It appears to be just 4 hits,. I can't imagine one slug veered off that far at 25 yards.

Those black diamonds are 4".

So, not stellar accuracy by any means but I learned some things:

- The screw on pre-cast glue wads are easier and better I think
- Recovered slugs appeared to expand a bit at the bottom of the skirt and wad petals were damaged (see below)
- Shooting 25 rounds off the bench is unpleasant! Well, I knew that but it was confirmed yesterday. I shot 10 Moose Minies first which was a mistake but then I thought they would shoot better.
- Vettepilot sent me a link to a guy on Youtube modifying Lee slugs by casting tailwads on them but using melted recovered plastic wads! Maxx Bear on Youtube. Great idea I have to try! The glue is difficult to handle and guess what... when it's hot it sticks to everything! And it can't be used for bore size slugs unless paper patched or...? Re-using plastic wads is brilliant! I'll try that in my wad forms.

Moose Minie Clones

I saw a video on Taofledermaus where they shot the Lyman .69 Minie at 740 grs. and also a .69 cal. Moose Minie which appears to be modeled after a .58 Lyman target Minie and weighs 535 grs. IIRC which is a much more reasonable weight. These Minies both cast about 0.685" so fit into standard shotcups. Had I not seen it I wouldn't believe it but both Minies stabilized perfectly from smoothbore shotguns. Both gave good accuracy as well.

So, I decided to modify one of my moulds to make a Moose Minie clone but no lube grooves. I guess I set my core pin wrong because they came out at 494 grs. instead of 535 grs. but I decided to use them anyway. I also made the mould a bit oversize but they fit perfectly in Claybuster 1 oz. wads (Winchester clone). Having read the Ranch Dog write up on removing cushion leg and using the slug in just the cup and on hard card wads I decided to try that.

The Minie's were filled with hot melt glue as well to prevent HB collapse.

All shooting was done with my Mossberg Slugster smoothbore 12 ga. with open sights and at 25 yards... well after the first shot at 50 yards the rest were taken at 25 yards.

I usually shoot at 50 yards and pretty much always hit the target... somewhere and I am used to getting acceptable groups most of the time but this time the first shot missed a 2' x 3' target! To be fair it was only about 4" off the side of the paper so "only" 1 1/2' from the bullseye!:smile:

I decided 25 yards might be a better range! So I shot 9 more rounds at 25 yards and got a 13" group. Not what I expected! Holes were clean and round but really far apart! I won't both posting the target!

Recovered slugs

https://i.postimg.cc/V6DF7vrs/IMG-2140.jpg (https://postimg.cc/zbHWvJF4)

Left to right:

- 1 oz. Lee slug with screw on tailwad
- 1 oz. Lee slug with cast on tailwad
- 1 oz. Lee slug with screw on felt and polyethylene tailwad from my last outing many months ago
- Moose Minie clone with glue plug
- Moose Minie clone more or less in one piece
- Screw on glue wad that obviously didn't stay screwed on

Recovered Wads

https://i.postimg.cc/7hhnj403/IMG-2141.jpg (https://postimg.cc/WqRZJQ9z)

Left to right:

- Winchester yellow 1 1/8 oz. wads with cushion leg and without
- Pacific Verlite wads without cushion leg
- Claybuster 1 oz. wad without cushion leg (used for Moose Minie)

Note that the petals on the Winchester and pacific Verelite wads are clipped off at the height of the glue tailwad. Like I said, it appears that the skirt is flairing a bit and pinching the wad petals.

I should also mention that these Lee slugs were sized to 0.672" to remove the taper then cloth patched up to fit wad/bore using 0.011" cotton shirt. The wads I have do not have much taper to the petals so I wanted cylindrical slugs.

The short story is that the Moose Minie appears to be a bust at least in this test. I think I'll stick to the modified and Brenneke'ized Lee slugs and do some more testing.

The thread started out about Lee 7/8 oz. slugs but I didn't shoot any yesterday. I will next time. I will likely revisit things and make some adjustments to to slugs and loading procedures too... and record info better!

In the past I got better accuracy from Lee slugs with added tailwads than without. This time I am not so sure! I do think that adding a tailwad is the way to go so will carry on for now. I want to get as good accuracy from these Lee slugs as I get with round ball loads out to 50 yards. If I can do that they should give better longer range accuracy than round balls. I am still on my quest for 4" 100 yard groups with smoothbore... okay, I'd accept 6" 100 yard groups with smoothbore. Maybe one day!

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

Okay then... it's been a while!

I finally got to the range with some more Brenneke'ized Lee slugs and some Moose Minie clones. I'll report both here then see if I can find my Moose Minie clone thread... at least I think I started one!

I'll recap a bit on both the Lee Brenneke'ized slugs and the Moose Minie slugs.

Brenneke'ized Slugs

If you look back to the first post you will see the 7/8 oz. Lee slug cast from a mould that I modified the core pin for to create a post with screw hole for attaching tailwads. I wanted a post so I could either run a screw in part way then cast on a tailwad or screw on a wad Brenneke style from behind. I have modified both Lee 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. moulds. Weight increased by about 1/8 oz. or a little more. Don't have it handy and I'm typing so... I'll check later.

Initially I just added the post then had to chuck the slugs in my lathe to drill them. That was a pain so I added a pin to leave the screw hole. That works great!

So, I started with dense felt wads using the felt that goes under chair legs or appliances. That's the best I could find locally. Ideally Durofelt is the way to go. They have a felt used for shotgun wads. Anyway, I used the available felt and as usual had the problems with consistency... or lack of consistency, The felt squirms a bit when punched so I didn't get real clean cylindrical wads. I also didn't have a source of fairly thick softish plastic/rubber for washers so wound up using thin polyethylene from a kid's snow slider/Magic Blanket. It is a bit too thin so wrinkles easily.

So, my initial Brenneke'izing of both Lee slugs and full bore slugs suffered from less than perfect tailwads. Accuracy was okay but not great.

Back to the drawing board! Hot melt glue has been my go to material for tailwads and when good tailwads turn out accuracy from attached wad slugs can be quite good but it is difficult to get good and consistent tailwads without bubbles or shrinkage... this is not injection moulding! It is poor man's injection moulding.

I recently came up with an idea I have used for both cast on and screw on tailwads using the hot melt glue that has worked out quite well, make them overlength so bubbles rise into the waste area and shrinkage is in the waste area then cut it off. That seems to be resulting in much more consistent tailwads.

For this trip I had both screw on glue wads and cast on glue wads but unfortunately I didn't record info as well as I should have.

All shooting was done at 25 yards. Groups didn't start out as well as hoped so I stuck to close range.

Group #1

https://i.postimg.cc/V6YRBnNH/IMG-2142.jpg (https://postimg.cc/R3DKv3Kc)

Without the one low shot it isn't horrible!

Group #2

https://i.postimg.cc/R01dHXvH/IMG-2143.jpg (https://postimg.cc/jW5yV6wx)

I am going to largely blame myself here. I don't like the rear sight and have a bit of trouble with the bead. I have to open the rear sight some more so I can see the bead better. I think I held in two different spots for elevation. If the 3 high shots were lower that would be a good group but was it me or the slugs? I'll load more like this and try again.

Group #3

https://i.postimg.cc/WzywvywQ/IMG-2144.jpg (https://postimg.cc/8fh6dt3H)

Not quite sure what happened here! I would swear I shot 6 shots and have 5 empty hulls but...? It appears to be just 4 hits,. I can't imagine one slug veered off that far at 25 yards.

Those black diamonds are 4".

So, not stellar accuracy by any means but I learned some things:

- The screw on pre-cast glue wads are easier and better I think
- Recovered slugs appeared to expand a bit at the bottom of the skirt and wad petals were damaged (see below)
- Shooting 25 rounds off the bench is unpleasant! Well, I knew that but it was confirmed yesterday. I shot 10 Moose Minies first which was a mistake but then I thought they would shoot better.
- Vettepilot sent me a link to a guy on Youtube modifying Lee slugs by casting tailwads on them but using melted recovered plastic wads! Maxx Bear on Youtube. Great idea I have to try! The glue is difficult to handle and guess what... when it's hot it sticks to everything! And it can't be used for bore size slugs unless paper patched or...? Re-using plastic wads is brilliant! I'll try that in my wad forms.

Moose Minie Clones

I saw a video on Taofledermaus where they shot the Lyman .69 Minie at 740 grs. and also a .69 cal. Moose Minie which appears to be modeled after a .58 Lyman target Minie and weighs 535 grs. IIRC which is a much more reasonable weight. These Minies both cast about 0.685" so fit into standard shotcups. Had I not seen it I wouldn't believe it but both Minies stabilized perfectly from smoothbore shotguns. Both gave good accuracy as well.

So, I decided to modify one of my moulds to make a Moose Minie clone but no lube grooves. I guess I set my core pin wrong because they came out at 494 grs. instead of 535 grs. but I decided to use them anyway. I also made the mould a bit oversize but they fit perfectly in Claybuster 1 oz. wads (Winchester clone). Having read the Ranch Dog write up on removing cushion leg and using the slug in just the cup and on hard card wads I decided to try that.

The Minie's were filled with hot melt glue as well to prevent HB collapse.

All shooting was done with my Mossberg Slugster smoothbore 12 ga. with open sights and at 25 yards... well after the first shot at 50 yards the rest were taken at 25 yards.

I usually shoot at 50 yards and pretty much always hit the target... somewhere and I am used to getting acceptable groups most of the time but this time the first shot missed a 2' x 3' target! To be fair it was only about 4" off the side of the paper so "only" 1 1/2' from the bullseye!:smile:

I decided 25 yards might be a better range! So I shot 9 more rounds at 25 yards and got a 13" group. Not what I expected! Holes were clean and round but really far apart! I won't both posting the target!

Recovered slugs

https://i.postimg.cc/V6DF7vrs/IMG-2140.jpg (https://postimg.cc/zbHWvJF4)

Left to right:

- 1 oz. Lee slug with screw on tailwad
- 1 oz. Lee slug with cast on tailwad
- 1 oz. Lee slug with screw on felt and polyethylene tailwad from my last outing many months ago
- Moose Minie clone with glue plug
- Moose Minie clone more or less in one piece
- Screw on glue wad that obviously didn't stay screwed on

Recovered Wads

https://i.postimg.cc/7hhnj403/IMG-2141.jpg (https://postimg.cc/WqRZJQ9z)

Left to right:

- Winchester yellow 1 1/8 oz. wads with cushion leg and without
- Pacific Verlite wads without cushion leg
- Claybuster 1 oz. wad without cushion leg (used for Moose Minie)

Note that the petals on the Winchester and pacific Verelite wads are clipped off at the height of the glue tailwad. Like I said, it appears that the skirt is flairing a bit and pinching the wad petals.

I should also mention that these Lee slugs were sized to 0.672" to remove the taper then cloth patched up to fit wad/bore using 0.011" cotton shirt. The wads I have do not have much taper to the petals so I wanted cylindrical slugs.

The short story is that the Moose Minie appears to be a bust at least in this test. I think I'll stick to the modified and Brenneke'ized Lee slugs and do some more testing.

The thread started out about Lee 7/8 oz. slugs but I didn't shoot any yesterday. I will next time. I will likely revisit things and make some adjustments to to slugs and loading procedures too... and record info better!

In the past I got better accuracy from Lee slugs with added tailwads than without. This time I am not so sure! I do think that adding a tailwad is the way to go so will carry on for now. I want to get as good accuracy from these Lee slugs as I get with round ball loads out to 50 yards. If I can do that they should give better longer range accuracy than round balls. I am still on my quest for 4" 100 yard groups with smoothbore... okay, I'd accept 6" 100 yard groups with smoothbore. Maybe one day!

Longbow

Great report, LB!

Where these fold or roll crimped?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[longbow]

I wish results had been better and my pics aren't so great but hey... I'm an amateur! But thanks!

These were fold crimps for all. I usually roll crimp but I think I decided to fold crimp because Ranch Dog found better results using fold crimps.

I should probably expand on why I did some of the things I did but the story gets really long... yeah my posts tend to be long anyway but I mean really long! As briefly as I can...

I bought the Lee moulds several years ago to try and got reasonable accuracy out to 50 yards first time out with the 1 oz. slugs. Reasonable being 6" +/- groups. Not as good as my round ball groups but not horrible and way better than the Lyman Foster ever did. That was a box stock as cast Lee 1 oz. slug in a wad.

I decided to try adding a tailwad so bored some CPVC pipe to suit the nose of the Lee slugs but as you know they are tapered so this results in two major issues for casting tailwads on:

- Since the tail of the skirt is smaller than the nose the slug can tilt in the form resulting in misalignment between the tailwad and slug axis

- The taper also results in a gap around the skirt so hot melt glue will flow in and make for an uneven leading edge on the tailwad

Based on some work I had done prior with cylindrical TC solid slugs in forms and cast on tailwads I decided to make a sizer to remove the taper from my Lee slugs. The 7/8 oz. mould has more taper than the 1 oz. slug with base at something like 0.662" IIRC. So I made a sizer to suit then pushed a slug through... it broke up! Too much sizing.

I don't recall exact details or sequence but in the end I made a sizer that takes the slugs to 0.672". That removes all taper from the 1 oz. slugs and almost all the taper from the 7/8 oz. slugs so then they will fit a form nicely and glue tailwads can be cast onto them quite neatly. That works. At 0.672" they are just the right size to fit into Winchester AA Red wads, a hair small for Pacific Verelite wads and quite small for Winchester yellow 1 1/8 oz. wads so they have to be patched up. I used cross strips of old cotton shirt at 0.011" thick. That has worked quite well in the past with the solid slugs.

These slugs were cast assembled and loaded quite a while ago and have been waiting for me to get them to the range! I have since come up with a better way of making tailwads using hot melt glue and possibly old melted shotcups thanks to Maxx Bear for the idea and thanks to Vettepilot for sending me the Youtube link!

Anyway, the improved method is to pre-cast glue (or maybe recast wads) into a form with a pin through the middle so I get a glue "log" with a hole all the way through. The logs are cast vertically so bubbles rise to the top... or near the top and shrinkage is from the top down. Let the glue cool then push out a log. Put the log in a jig and cut off the top with defects then slice the log into 3/8" or so disks. Use a #6 wood screw to screw the nice disk onto the post in the middle of the modified Lee mould. The tailwad is anchored to the slug with a screw, easy to put on and quicker to make than casting each one onto a slug in a form plus the tailwads have nice sharp clean edges instead of sometimes rounded, uneven or frizzy edges. This is what will be tested next time with unsized slugs.

I should also add that after more examination of recovered slugs from the Friday outing it appears the glue tailwads did indeed push up into the cavity some causing the skirt to bulge out, I believe at 90° from the drive key rib. This bulge is what likely pinched petals damaging wad petals.

In retrospect I am thinking I should follow in Ranch Dog's footsteps with his solution to the Lee slug accuracy issues as he got rather impressive accuracy in the end. if you haven't read it, here are a couple of links:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?386060-Western-Field-170-Slugster-Lee-1-oz-without-Tail-Feathers
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?391840-Proofing-the-Lee-1-oz-without-Tail-Feathers

Does the Lee slug need a tailwad or not? Apparently not for Ranch Dog! In my early tests accuracy seemed to improve noticeably with the addition of a tailwad, Brenneke like. I will certainly agree with Ranch Dog on his view of the cushion leg though.

So, next round of testing will be Lee 7/8 oz. Brenneke'ized slugs with hot melt glue tailwad screwed onto the slugs. No sizing!

I'll try to get better pics and organize my details better for the write up!

Why don't I just buy a Russian slug mould, cast and shoot you ask? Well, stubborn and not too bright is the answer! I wanted to get good consistent accuracy from Lee slugs so am still trying. If this doesn't do it then I just may buy a Russian slug mould!

Sorry, more info than you asked for BT but yes, fold crimps.

Longbow

[FullTang]

Interesting results, Longbow, and I share your disappointment. This seems like a worthy project, and I've done some of the same kind of experimentation, though with a slightly different focus. I suspect the Russian slugs will render all of this experimentation moot, and I have one on order right now, so we'll see. However, reading through your results, I did have 2 thoughts (at the risk of throwing more fuel on this particular fire!)

Idea #1 was to screw from the top down into a factory wad; the BP brush wads by Gualandi seem to be the best choice, but it also occurred to me that in this application a discarding-petal wad like the PT wads or the Trap Commander would solve 2 problems at once---bringing the diameter up to full bore and centering the slug almost perfectly. My experience with PT wads is that they crush down hard and straight---they're not springy like most others, so they're less likely to form a crooked tail wad. More like a hard ball of plastic, which should also hold a screw better. Could you modify any of your slugs for this? I'm sure you've tried something along these lines, but it seems the choice of wad is critical, and you may not have tried the PT wads (I got a whole case of PT1215s that I use for everything, so that's why I though of this!)

Idea #2 for creating a ride-along tail with a factory wad is to skip the screw entirely and set the Lee slug in wax (or hot melt glue, or resin of your choice) inside a factory wad, but use an un-slit wad like the C-LBC or CSD078; this way, the wad will ride along all the way to the target. These wads are thicker than most, so diameter would be an issue, but you've already figured out how to size the slugs down, so I think you're all set to try this. I've made wax slugs with un-slit C-LBC wads and shot them out of a rifled barrel with good accuracy to 100 meters. They're not as accurate from a smooth bore, but still way better than conventional wax slugs at 50 yards.

I have seen experiments on YouTube where people set Lee slugs in wax in a regular wads, in hopes of improving accuracy, but that doesn't seem to work (wad discards erratically, wax sticks randomly, etc.)

[longbow]

FullTang:

You bring up some good questions and ideas.

To start, for a guy who gets hung up on details I left quite a few out here!

I should fill out a standard form with all the gun and shooting details when I do this so I'll do that belatedly then carry on.

Gun ~ Mossberg Slugster smoothbore 12 ga. with open rifle sights
Hull ~ Federal Field Hull with paper basewad, 2 3/4"
Slug(s) ~ for this report Lee 1 oz. Drive Key slug modified with center post and screw hole and sized to 0.672"; modified slug with attached hot melt glue wad ~ 3/8" long, some cast on and some screw on (weight of slug without wad = 455 grs.); and one very bad group of Moose Minie clones loaded into Claybuster clones of Winchester 1 oz. wads; slugs with attached hot melt glue wads are lightly tumbled in talcum powder so the glue doesn't stick to patching or wad petals; completed slugs are cloth patched back up to good fit to wad/bore using cotton cross strip patches of appropriate thickness (in this case 0.011")
Wad ~ Some Winchester yellow 1 1/8 oz., some Winchester yellow 1 1/8 oz. with cushion leg cut off and hard card wad column with plastic gas seal, some Pacific Verelite with cushion leg cut off and on hard card wad column with plastic gas seal; yes this is confusing and I didn't keep track as well as I should have and since these were loaded months ago I have forgotten some of those details. I had intended to load and shoot but... The moral here is write it all down and keep good records! Do as I say, not as I do!
Powder ~ Blue Dot and SR4756 as marked on targets
Crimp ~ fold crimp for all loads
Range ~ all Lee slugs shot at 25 meters (not yards, meters). Not much difference at 25 but still, I should get the details right!

The original purpose was to test modified Lee 7/8 oz. slugs with attached wads. Due to issues at the time casting wads onto the tapered slugs I sized to remove taper. Since this had worked well with solid slugs in the past I figured it would with the modified Lee slugs. In the meantime I made the same mod to my 1 oz. mould and wound up with 1 oz. slugs to test. I am, sure I have some loaded 7/8 oz. slugs in my reloading room but it was the 1 oz. slugs that got taken to the range this time.

Since I made the mould mod I have come up with a better way of making wads for attchment by screw. Quite Benneke like.

I should also clarify that these are wad slugs, not patched to full bore but patched to fit inside a wad so petals/slug/bore fit is good. Original intent was to use the as cast O.D. in a wad with no patching, just the addition of the tailwad.

I have a love/hate relationship with wad slugs/wads for slugs. I like that they are self contained and easy to load, I hate that the wad petals vary so much in thickness so making some wads suitable and some not for any given slug and that petal thickness is not necessarily consistent. This is one reason I had decided to use undersize slugs then patch to suit depending on wad and gun. That is extra work and relegates loads for specific guns... at least to a certain extent.

A good full bore design should fit the largest standard bore and be designed to swage to suit anything smaller... in my opinion. That should eliminate the wad issue. Having said that, we have several people here who have succeeded rather well using both the Lyman sabot slug and Lee slugs in wads ~ notably Hogtamer with Lyman sabot slugs and Ranch Dog with Lee slugs. So it can be done but with specific load components and details.

In my defense, I have had a few slugs cast in home made moulds that have performed very well, both full bore and wad slugs but I was wanting to succeed with Lee slugs so have been tinkering to get that to happen. I am returning to basics with the new wad style and unsized 7/8 oz. Lee slugs in wads for the next test so will be back on track with the original post and title. If successful or reasonably so I will will also do a round of testing with the 1 oz. slug modified in the same way so, Brenneke'ized Lee 7/8 oz. and 1 oz. slugs with attached wads.

On that note, I have also tried felt wads screwed on and again consistency in wads has eluded me. The felt is "squishy" when punching and tends to squirm in different directions as it is punched making for bulged or sloped outer diameter. My suspicion is that Brenneke factory attaches oversize felt wads and washers then runs a rotating cutter over the complete slug to trim the excess wad off to get consistent and centered tailwads. That is my speculation based on trying all sorts of ways to get nice, clean, cylindrical punched tailwads that have not been as precise as I want or think the slugs need. The cast in form tailwads are very nice so that is what I will use.

I think that covers the missing details.

Now for FullTang's questions and comments:

Idea #1:

-Screw from the nose down into a plastic cushion leg brush wad:

- Yes, I have thought of this one but not really suitable for wad slugs unless I could use a 16 or 20 ga. brush wad then put the whole works into a 12 ga. deep wad. I think this is better suited to a full bore slug and I do plan to try it. To note, I have tried several different attached wad materials and is they are squishy and srewed on Brenneke style from the back they tend to crush and not return properly... in my experience anyway. The hot melt glue wads seem to work very well this way.
- This is in my plans to try with full bore slug. It works well for the Russian slugs so why not?
- I have not tried PT wads. One of the issues I have is that there is little if any shotshell reloading components available locallly so I have to order in and have been reluctant to just randomly order to see if something fits or works or not. Trying to make do with what I can get or use already for shot loads. Not the smartest approach I guess.

Idea #2:

- Using a slug in wad as non-discarding sabot slug: Yes, this actually works! Greg Sappington asked me to make him a mould many years ago with that in mind and diameter to suit CSD steel shot wads unslit. The a couple of nitro card wads are dropped into the cup then the slug pushed in and it is a press fit if right diameter. Cup may have to be trimmed so suit slug length. 0.662" RB's fit perfectly this way and I have made short TC solid slugs with full bore band at the nose and CSD cup size shank so kinda like a Slug "R Us HammerHead slug. They work but Suffer from wad distortion. I think the shortest CSD cushion leg is the way to go and I will try some more of these eventually but this is a Lee slug thread so... Lee slugs are too big to fit these CSD wads and in my experience ACWW slugs cannot be sized down that far. Soft lead Lee slugs likely can be and that should work but a 0.662" RB works so... why not? I have a couple of those made up so will post a pic.
- There may be other wads available with thick petals and unslit but the CSD wads do work. As Greg pointed out though they tend to have very uneven petal thickness so are not a good choice for rifled guns which was his goal. They do seem to work okay for smoothbore in the very limited tests I did with CSD wads he sent me.
- I am not sure if there are standard trap wads available unslit and in a suitable petal thickness to hold Lee slugs but if there are and they have a "good" cushion leg that is an idea worth trying

I will carry on with the Brenneke'ized Lee slug test for 7/8 oz. shortly I hope and with better detail and record keeping. I'll post results here, good or bad, and possibly include results for Lee 1 oz. slugs as well.

Sorry for piecemeal report with missing details, I will try to better next time!

Longbow

Link to new thread "Slugs I've Made and Tried": https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?434995-Slug-s-I-ve-Made-and-Tried&p=5307175#post5307175

[Petander]

Such a superb thread.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK; let me add my .02 here as far as production goes. On my Slugs with screw on wads (BW12) I put the wads in a collet on my lathe and do a 1/16" pilot hole Dead Center. Then before removing the wad from the collet I use a very sharp cutter to trim the Front End Gas Seal down to where it is flush with the center portion of the wad. This insures that the wad will be concentric to the hole in the slug and not get pushed off to one side by the gas seal, which is why I trimmed it in the first place. All the ones I did before trimming that gas seal ended up sliding off center as the screw was tightened. Also knowing when to stop tightening the screw is another point that must be mastered.

It should also be noted that the trailing edge of the wad/gas seal is the steering end just like on a Cast Boolit. So concentricity matters, and if your wad isn't screwed on right, the slug won't fly strait,,, Period.

In the pics below the center slug is the one I'm looking at right now, and you can see with the top gas seal trimmed down the slug is centered nicely on the wad.

This slug would be "drag stabilized" from a smoothbore, and need to be PC'd so it doesn't lead the bore, Same for a Rifled Barrel but Spin Stabilized, so the concentricity will be of even greater importance.

The slug shown was cast from a Russian mould and the pin hole on the face of the slug was not round so I put all those slugs in the lathe and drilled those holes out for a #8 screw. They are now concentric.

End of .02

Randy

[longbow]

I made it to the range again! Yay! Its been a long time with too little shooting!

Results were better but not as good as I had hoped.

This time, staying on topic, I shot only 7/8 oz. Lee slugs... "box stock" original Lee 7/8 oz. slugs and Brenneke'ized 7/8 oz. Lee slugs which actually weigh 470 grs. assembled.

The modifications to the core pin to add the screw post takes the cast slug weight up to 420 grs., then there is attached wad weight and screw weight to add to that.

So, as a recap the modified slug looks like this:

https://i.postimg.cc/HnhBcb15/Modified-7-8-oz-Lee-slug.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

With screw on hot melt glue tailwad it looks like this:

https://i.postimg.cc/tgp8F0Mz/20211203-Brenneke-ized-Lee-7-8-oz-slug.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RWpPzY93)

The hot melt glue is poured into a form lined with parchment paper and with a pin through the middle to leave a screw hole. After cooling the glue "logs" are cut to length in a jig which leaves pretty nice faces and edges. In this case the glue tailwads are 0.4" long. I was shooting for 3/8" but overshot.

These were tumbled in baby powder to keep them from sticking to anything then loaded into 3 different shotcups (4 styles):

- WinAA12F114 shotcups complete
- Claybuster Win. 7/8 oz. clone complete
- WinAA12F114 cup only with cushion cut off
- Pacific Verelite cup only with cushion cut off

5 groups were shot using four different loadings:

- control group of box stock Lee 7/8 oz. slugs loaded into Claybuster 7/8 oz. Win. clone wads
- Brenneke'ized Lee slugs loaded into whole WinAA12F114 wads
- Brenneke'ized Lee slugs loaded into WinAA12F114 shotcup only with cushion leg cut off over nitro card wad and 1/2" fiber wad
- Brenneke'ized Lee slugs loaded into Pacific Verelite shotcup only with cushion leg cut off over WinAA Red gas seal cut off and 1/2" fiber wad

I decided to follow in Ranch Dog's footsteps (more or less) by eliminating the cushion leg for some of these to see how that worked. I am in total agreement with Ranch Dog and what Randy says above... the cushion leg/gas seal is the last thing to leave the muzzle so if it is damaged, tilted, bent, uneven in any way, that will affect the accuracy of the slug leaving. And of course if the attached wad is tilted or not dead center accuracy will suffer.

What I didn't think of is that I have done this once before with poor results. That is using nitro card wad instead of plastic gas seal. Recovered wads show why. Yes, I can be a slow learner at times! I should have remembered but didn't so repeated a mistake. Ranch Dog uses 3" hulls and quite a long stack of hard card wads and achieved excellent results using Lee 1 oz. slugs that way. I suspect that 1 nitro card wad and a fiber wad just isn't enough to stop gas blow by. Recovered wad pic here:

https://i.postimg.cc/KYGBb4dy/20211209-Wads.jpg (https://postimg.cc/k2HBFMJj)

From bottom to top:

- Claybuster 7/8 oz. wad looking not bad all about the same
- Pacific Verelite cups looking not bad (Win AA gas seal used under these), all recovered looked very good
- Win AA12F114 cups kinda burned and beat up (these were loaded over nitro card and fiber wad), I recovered 6 of 10 and all were damaged
- WinAA12F114 wads looking quite good

Results this time were better than last time but not what I would call stellar... or even good. But again, some lessons learned or some relearned! Note that the Winchester wads are burned when no plastic gas seal was used but Pacific Verelite wads look great when the only change was to replace the nitro card wad with a plastic gas seal. I was confident the card wad column was going to work so loaded 10 of those for groups 3 & 4.

I limited shooting to 25 yards due to dismal results last time. I figured if I got one hole groups at 25 yards that would be a good thing then I could move to 50 yards. Not there yet with these!

I should add that I can only get Federal 209A primers right now and so dropped powder charges some to compensate for the hot primer. Also of concern were solid wad columns that I believe can result in pressure spikes due to less crush (smaller volume) at ignition compared to cushion leg wads. I will say that last outing left me rather sore! Recoil was brutal with Blue Dot loads. This time I used Unique at guesstimated appropriate charges after cross referencing. Recoil was much more tolerable this time and good ignition with Unique even using the box stock 7/8 oz. slug.

The Claybuster wads give a somewhat loose fit to bore.

The WinAA12F114 wads are a good push fit.

The Pacific Verelite wads are a snug fit.

So, on to targets! The black diamond is 4" on a side.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pf9WDX8m/20211209-Group-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/7b1J8y96)

https://i.postimg.cc/5NzwqhwD/20211209-Group-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/BXqLJw7C)

https://i.postimg.cc/BnG2hmpb/20211209-Group-3.jpg (https://postimg.cc/kBfVGFkP)

https://i.postimg.cc/sX0pwyHC/20211209-Group-4.jpg (https://postimg.cc/WFgF4RP5)

https://i.postimg.cc/MpbVg13D/20211209-Group-5.jpg (https://postimg.cc/68q8v4X2)

I think all the info you need is on the targets.

Surprisingly the box stock Lee slugs in group #1 shot the best! Better than I have seen before. Not sure if groups would hold up at 50 yards but if so then a 5"group at 50 yards wouldn't be bad. I guess I will have to test that out too!

At this point I am thinking that the hard card wad column with a bore diameter Foster, like a scaled up Lee slug, might be a better option than slug in shotcup on hard card wad column or complete wad with cushion leg. I can convert my Nessler Balle mould to do that so just may give it a go if the next round of Brenneke'ized Lee slugs don't dazzle me. Vettepilot has commented on wanting a bore diameter Lee slug as well.

Having said that, my goal was to try to improve Lee slug performance and my early Brenneke'izing with cast on tailwads seemed to accomplish that. This go around hasn't been so good thus far! I'll make some more Brenneke'ized Lee slugs to try one more time but If I don't see improvement, I think it is time to move on! It seems the Russians have been working hard and producing some very nice looking and performing slugs so it may be time to pick a Russian mould. One more round with modified Lee slugs first though!

Something else I should add here is that in the past I have used my old single shot Cooey with cylinder bore and rifle sights for slug testing. The last trip and this trip I used my Mossberg Slugster which is also cylinder bore and has rifle sights. I have shimmed the barrel to receiver fit with a brass shim shown earlier in the thread. I also put in an MCarbo trigger spring set because the trigger was horribly heavy when I got the gun. The trigger is much nicer now. I really should take both guns to the range for comparison as the Cooey has been very consistent and accurate in past slug testing. It might not make any difference but I should confirm results by using the old benchmark testing gun.

I think that covers the outing.

At least one more round to come. If similar results I'll call it quits. If I see improvement worth pursuing I will.

Longbow

[Petander]

Oh my great report,Longbow.

How to center the attached wad...? I'm on that important mission,too.

[Vettepilot]

Wow! Truly excellent work, posting, write-up, and all. Nice!! You've surely put a ton of work into all this.

Just one comment I guess... it seems that it rarely works to use two gas seals if I read right and you sometimes do that. Many think of it as "double insurance", but most often one seal, (or nitro card), bashes up into the next, damages it, and both end up failing. Particular to hard, nitro over powder wads, I recently watched a video whereby the creator had a method that might be worth trying. He said he got better consistency and reliable seal using an 11 (eleven) gauge overshot card first, and then a standard, 12 gauge nitro card. One thing about nitro cards though; I think if they can at all push up into hollow base slugs, they deform and lose seal. Anyway, Circlefly is a great source for any/all cards.

Lastly, just an idea about making your felt tails. If you are just punching them out, you might try sharpening a punch really well, and use it in a drill press, spinning. Back the affair with end grain wood to protect the sharp edge of the punch.

Another idea there might be to soak the felt with wax to make it more firm for easier, more precise cutting. This would also help lube the bore. I can highly recommend Durofelt. She's a nice gal...

Keep up the great work!

Vettepilot

[longbow]

Vettepilot:

No, only one gas seal. Any shotcups I used along with over powder nitro card wad were just shotcups with no cushion leg or gas seal. It was either plastic gas seal or nitro card wad over powder and only fiber wad above.

I will say that I would have preferred to use all hard card wad column but I am out of 1/2" hard card wads so went with a nitro card wad over powder then fiber wad and since the tailwads are solid I didn't use a 16 ga. nitro card wad under any Nrenneke'ized slugs.

These were all hot melt glue tailwads, no felt this time.

I haven't tried the drill press idea for felt wads but may alter my punch or make a new one so I can try that. Good idea with the wax! I tried soaking the felt in Titebond II glue but that didn't work worth a poop! Wax or thick lube might be a good idea to stop squirming. I like the idea of punching out tailwads rather than casting. That I will try.

Also, still have to get around to trying the melted wads per Maxx Bear. If I am going to use a cast tailwad that seems like a better material than the glue mostly due to handling. The glue is actually very tough and light and if tumbled in baby powder nothing sticks to it. I should have mentioned that in my report. I did mention tumbling in baby powder but not wad release. All indications are that wads release quickly. I haven't seen a sticker yet so I can't blame large groups on that. The shotcups still have baby powder in them when recovered.

Another thjing I didn't mention in this last report though I didn't recover any slugs this time... too much snow and too little time, last outing I did recover slugs and some of the Lee slugs showed an odd expansion that appears to be at 90° to the drive key. This would be from the tailwad pushing up into the cavity a bit. There was no obvious damage to the tailwad but some shotcups showed a cut at that level. So, I may fill the cavities for next range trip and testing to prevent any of that... that takes me back to cast on tailwads which obviously fill the cavity. I have not noticed this issue with Lee slugs and cast on tailwads.

Still a few things to check but I am thinking more and more of the bore diameter "Lee" slug you talked about. I have modeled it and will proceed with making a new core pin for my Nessler Balle mould.

If that works then I will likely abandon the Lee slug developments. If not then I am looking hard at the Russian moulds. Time will tell!

Longbow

[Vettepilot]

You would really like any one of those Russian slugs Longbow. Santa really needs to bring you one! Or two!

I got lucky this year. Santa brought me a Lyman 8 turret press, and an RCBS Chargemaster Lite electronic powder dispenser. (Yeah, I peeked...)

Hey, ya only live once, dammit, and in the end, when it's all over, you'll only regret the things you didn't do...

Vettepilot

[Petander]

Hey, ya only live once, dammit, and in the end, when it's all over, you'll only regret the things you didn't do...

Vettepilot

Wise words. Super thread.

[longbow]

Yes Petander, I believe you have said much the same to me!

I have been window shopping but not buying for a long time. Hard habit to break when I am used to making do with what I have.

However... I'm working on it!

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow, just for the fun of it; try gluing a few of the slugs into the Verlite wads to make a "solid" full bore slug.

Something tells me the separation of slug and wad are causing trouble when shot through a smooth bore. Both target #3 and 4 have three slugs close together with two fliers opening up the group. It could be a fluke, but it's interesting that the Win AA wads (with significant flared petals) gave good results with the original Lee slug. In my humble opinion, the wad should either separate immediately or never!

[Petander]

Yes Petander, I believe you have said much the same to me!



Longbow

I hope I haven't been pushing, that's just the way I do things so I tend to mention it often. I do things NOW. I Can't wait for tomorrow because I just can't take much about tomorrow for granted.

Many of my friends have laughed at me and my logic for decades. Life can be planned but the plans seldom work out.

Now what was the topic again? Ahh, smoothbore!

With very limited experience I prefer fullbore slugs now. To eliminate shotcup petals.

Off to the range!

[longbow]

With very limited experience I prefer fullbore slugs now. To eliminate shotcup petals.


I am in agreement here! Loading slugs into trap wads is convenient and minimizes components and effort but the wad is both a variable and weak link.

I guess if you have a good selection of different brands and style of readily available wads and find one that works well for you then stick with that you should get repeatable results.

Full bore slugs/balls require custom wad columns but eliminate the cushion leg and petal thickness variables plus allow for easy wad column height adjustments for crimp height.

I think more advantages than disadvantages to full bore slugs/balls.

Having said that, I plan on wringing out the 7/8 oz. Lee slugs both stock and modified as best as I can to complete this test.

Petander... I need a push!

Enjoy your range day! I'll watch for your report.

Longbow

[Petander]

You would really like any one of those Russian slugs Longbow. Santa really needs to bring you one! Or two!

I got lucky this year. Santa brought me a Lyman 8 turret press, and an RCBS Chargemaster Lite electronic powder dispenser. (Yeah, I peeked...)

Hey, ya only live once, dammit, and in the end, when it's all over, you'll only regret the things you didn't do...

Vettepilot

No kidding? :)

https://i.postimg.cc/wMS9x42W/IMG-20211224-WA0001.jpg

[longbow]

Looking like a good haul there Petander!

Santa must be about finished in Finland and on his way here! I hope he saved a box or two for me!

Merry Christmas to all!

Longbow

[longbow]

Well… it has been a long time coming but I finally made it out to the range with 45 slug loads!

I loaded up 35 Lee 7/8 oz. slugs both “stock” and modified for Brenneke like cast on hot melt glue tailwad. Plus I took 10 rounds of Modified “Nessler Balls”.

I have both Lee 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. slug moulds and have tried casting hot melt glue tailwads directly to the Lee slugs but they tend not to bond to the slug when they are at room temperature and fall off frequently. So, I bought spare core pins and made a tapered D-bit to ream the core pins to make a post through the middle of the slug and leave a screw starter hole in it originally for screw on wads but also works to put a short screw in then cast the tailwad around the screw. The core pins Titan sent were both for 1 oz. slug but do fit both size moulds except they make for a slightly heavier than 7/8 oz. slug plus the post adds weight.

So, for this round of shooting I loaded up 5 stock/as cast Lee 7/8 oz slugs as a “control”. These have shot okay but not great for me before. These were loaded into Claybuster 1 oz. pink wads but were a bit loose fit to bore so they were paper patched with cross strips of printer paper ~ 2 cross strips/1 layer. That snugged the fit up nicely for firm push through the bore.

In the past I have tried sizing the Lee slugs to remove the taper as they are far more tapered than any wads I have and I thought it better to remove taper then paper patch back up to good fit. So, I sized 10 slugs then patched with 2 pairs of cross strips for two layers of printer paper which gave a good fit to bore.

I also cast tailwads onto 10 of the modified slugs with center post as cast and another 10 modified slugs were sized then tailwads cast onto them. The unsized slugs got 2 cross patch strips for 1 layer of paper and the sized slugs got 4 cross strips for 2 layers of paper just as the plain slugs got.

Plus I wanted to try a full bore slug made to behave like the Lee 7/8 oz. slug which likes to roll onto it’s nose. I had a mould I made to make a Balle Nessler clone (Crimean war smoothbore musket bullet) that was tested a couple of years ago with mixed success. I made a new core pin to make a much larger HB cavity and a more nose heavy slug. They cast well and like to be on their noses! I filled the HB with hot melt glue.

I decided to shoot at 25 yards/m (pretty sure the range is set in meters but…?) because my last couple of trips didn’t yield useful 50m accuracy.

Guns used:

• Cooey model 840 single shot smoothbore (0.733” bore); iron sights
• Mossberg 500 Slugster smoothbore (0.730” bore); iron sights

Hulls used:
• Federal Field hulls with paper basewads, 2 ¾”

Primers used:
• Federal 209A because that’s all I could get

Crimps:
• All crimps were 8 segment fold crimp… but the Lee slugs with attached tailwads were a hair long so crimps pushed part way open on all hulls

Slugs:
• Lee 7/8 oz. “stock” cast from ACWW @ 355 grs.
• Lee 7/8 oz. modified/Brenneke’ized @ 466 grs. total weight with screw and tailwad
• Pic of modified Lee slug with tailwad:
• https://i.postimg.cc/vZcvr4km/20220210_104256.jpg (https://postimg.cc/xXVHY10r)
• Modified Balle Nessler full bore slugs at 437 grs.
• Pic of modified Balle Nessler:
• https://i.postimg.cc/MK7xJFk0/20220110_212320.jpg (https://postimg.cc/YhCT18Cj)

Groups:

• All groups are 5 shots at 25m

I used two guns because in the past I have used the Cooey and more recently I have been using the Mossberg but not been getting very good results. I decided I would start with the Cooey to see how groups were then try the Mossberg for comparison. The first 5 unsized Lee slugs were shot from the Cooey then 5 of each batch of 10. The remaining 5 of each batch were then shot from the Mossberg.

Also to note is that the Mossberg has been upgraded with an MCarbo trigger spring set because as received the trigger was horrendously heavy pull, and the barrel has been shimmed to snug fit in the receiver… it was quite sloppy. The trigger pull is much better now.

So, enough words! Here are self explanatory pics of targets, slugs and wads:

https://i.postimg.cc/ncbDsm5g/Group-1-Target.jpg (https://postimg.cc/t7kTws9N)
https://i.postimg.cc/RFJWhCTv/Group-1-and-9-Lee-slugs.jpg (https://postimg.cc/wyHqbpPr)
https://i.postimg.cc/vZpFMQDr/Groups-1-and-9-Lee-Slug-Bases.jpg (https://postimg.cc/w1cbQYXM)
https://i.postimg.cc/T3QLH4wv/Group-1-Claybuster-Wads.jpg (https://postimg.cc/bZDwZLkm)
https://i.postimg.cc/Cxwn7gw4/Group-2-Target.jpg (https://postimg.cc/jLkjqBwW)
https://i.postimg.cc/j2XtdBBs/Groups-2-and-9-Claybuster-Wads.jpg (https://postimg.cc/m1t0mpbq)
https://i.postimg.cc/HW4p27nf/Group-3-Target.jpg (https://postimg.cc/fkynWyxK)
https://i.postimg.cc/XvCWyrt1/Groups-3-and-7-Slugs-and-Wads.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Y4MZ5CrQ)

Bah! I used too many pics! Limit is 20 per post so I will add 2 more posts to show those pics.

The random stock Lee slugs are all from Lee slugs are all from Groups 1,2 and 9 but I can't tell which gun they were shot from or whether they were sized of not due to impact damage.

The random Claybuster wads are all from loads using just Lee slugs with no tailwads so again groups 1,2 and 9.

The random Winchester wads are from modified/Brenneke’ized Lee slugs.

The modified Nessler slugs were loaded over a wad column consisting of one 1/8” nitro card wad, a scoop of Cream ‘O Wheat to set crimp height then another 1/8” nitro card wad… no plastic gas seal. That seemed to work well and makes for easy wad column.

Note that the only group the Mossberg shot better than the Cooey was group 9 using the sized plain Lee slug, the Cooey group with same slug is group 2. I see I forgot to put group 9 group size! It would be about 6”, the squares are 4” on a side.

I didn’t manage to find slugs or wads after every group shot so really the only slugs positively from a given group were group 1 slugs because there were no other slugs in the berm. After that I am assuming slugs found after each group shot were slugs from that group… I looked for wads and dug for slugs after every 5 shot group but they could have been unearthed by a subsequent slug.

Take a look at the Claybuster wads… they are a mess! Most gas seals are blown, petals are shredded and the Lee drive key has deeply dented or cut through the bottom of the shotcup. This is why I say to fill the HB cavity with hot melt glue or some form of filler or use a nitro card wad under the slug. I may retry these stock Lee slugs again with glue fill or nitro card wad but since casting a tailwad on seems to be working better that is just as easy and accomplishes more. These slug/wad fits to bore were snug but not tight. I have to think that the cushion leg pushing up into the slug cavity is the main cause for these wads failing so badly. Having said that the Mossberg didn’t do too badly with the sized and patched Lee slugs in group 9.

Another option is to follow in Ranch Dog’s footsteps and cut the shotcup off the cushion leg and use shotcup only as a sabot then load over hard card wad column.

I will definitely load some more of the modified Nesslers and give them another go through both guns. I had expected them to do better from the Mossberg because they are exactly bore size for it, they are slightly small in the Cooey but shot much better other than the one flier that may have been me. Of course this small sampling doesn't prove much but does indicate some loads that should be tested again to see if results are repeatable.

So, for next outing I will be loading Brenneke'ized 7/8 oz. Lee slugs unsized, stock 7/8 oz. Lee slugs unsized either with nitro card wad under or glue filled and more modified Nessler slugs. I will likely try the Ranch Dog approach as well and just use shotcups as sabots over card wad columns.

I think I got it all there and that it makes sense... I hope.

Longbow

[longbow]

https://i.postimg.cc/dt2TG1c1/Group-4-Target.jpg (https://postimg.cc/HVLxgTxD)
https://i.postimg.cc/yxVC5vx2/Groups-4-and-8-Slugs-and-Wads.jpg (https://postimg.cc/tZmcndhz)
https://i.postimg.cc/VkNL5LY2/Group-5-Target.jpg (https://postimg.cc/vcpdNyxv)
https://i.postimg.cc/tJ0Yx0rW/Group-5-Nessler-Slugs.jpg (https://postimg.cc/phZ2wSML)
https://i.postimg.cc/wBGt9RLW/Group-5-Nessler-Slug-Bases.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5H8930Pv)
https://i.postimg.cc/13R46rKC/Group-6-Target.jpg (https://postimg.cc/zVMJYW6K)
https://i.postimg.cc/JnjRSsqH/Group-7-Target.jpg (https://postimg.cc/vgHRVHCG)
https://i.postimg.cc/7YZynsp2/Group-8-Target-S.jpg (https://postimg.cc/0rF38f5k)
https://i.postimg.cc/wMH9z9ff/Group-9-Target.jpg (https://postimg.cc/ph0wYMtz)
https://i.postimg.cc/3NnQHmDN/Random-Claybuster-Wad-Gas-Seals.jpg (https://postimg.cc/n9jP4s2f)

[longbow]

https://i.postimg.cc/tCvGSdjm/Random-Claybuster-Wads-Groups-2-and-9.jpg (https://postimg.cc/ppjSyFyD)
https://i.postimg.cc/761ympHg/Random-Claybuster-wads-Gas-Seals-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/N90V0CrM)
https://i.postimg.cc/HkJDfJWW/Random-Winchester-Wads.jpg (https://postimg.cc/mPG59gFK)

[Vettepilot]

Wow. Quite a report! Blown wads like that destroy accuracy. Those Claybusters you shot are a mess!

I think I'm just going to use the Lee slugs as intended by Lee, and using Federal wads, for quicky plinking loads sometimes. For anything more serious, I'll use my various Russian slugs, which do quite well. With the current Russian "situation(s)", I am really glad I bought my molds and a ton of the special wads earlier!

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

My testing with the Lee slugs has not been all that extensive, though I've read about and studied them exhaustively. There is one confusing thing. Lee's literature states that the "Drive Key" is intended to grip the wad and aid in slug rotation, when used in rifled barrels. However, everything I've ever read states that everyone gets the best accuracy when using a card wad in the cup under the slug. More support and less cocking of the slug I suppose. I'm thinking that might help keep from shredding petals on the way out as well...

???

One interesting thing that I might have picked up here, and that I will test at some point, is a theory that the long jump to the forcing cone of slugs loaded into 2-3/4" hulls shot in 3" chambers hurts accuracy. I will definitely load up some 3" hulls with Lee slugs to test that sometime. I don't think a 3" load is strictly necessary, and will likely just build a modified 2-3/4" wad column to suit.

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

One other note, on building wad columns. I have found the black styrofoam meat cartons from the supermarket to make really useful wads. It's rather thick, and just the right density and springy-ness. I punch wads out of it, and use it to adjust my columns. It compresses some, but has enough resilience to provide wad pressure and to hold crimps really well. I get a lot of good use out of it, along with various other materials to make wads and build columns such as glossy cardboard, etc. Egg cartons make a great thin "shim card" wad too...

When loading shotshells, my Harbor Freight punch set is a valuable tool to have!!

Vettepilot

[longbow]

Yes, look at the difference between the Claybuster Win clone and the somewhat heavier duty Winchester wads used for the Brenneke'ized slugs. Not one blown gas seal on the Winchester wads and petals didn't even really open yet accuracy was generally pretty good (from the Cooey). I suspect that the Claybuster wads failed largely because the cushion leg pushed the bottom of the shotcup up into the cavities causing distorion of the gas seal when it slammed into the collapsed cushion. If you look at the Claybuster pics (zoom in) you will see that petals are badly damaged or gone above where the gas seal is blown. A simple nitro card wad should help if not solve that but I am inclined to use Ranch Dog's approach for Lee slugs and just cut the shotcup off the cushion leg then use hard card wad column.

Glue fill (or whatever fill) in HB slugs has worked well for me too. I am trying to recall why I didn't use a nitro card wad or fill in these slugs but I didn't write my thoughts down at the time. In retrospect I think the idea was to load as per Lee (more or less) with plain slug in wad. These results are typical with what I have experienced before using a variety of wads so no surprise. A difference is that these are realatively mild loads, I have usually used BD or SR4756 and typical slug load data but those loads beat me up at the bench too badly when shooting more than 20 or so. Being somewhat lighter loads I wouldn't have expected to see that much wad damage.

Anyway, so far I have had better results with modified Lee slugs by adding a tailwad than straight out of the Lee mould. Now that I have a better method for making cast on tailwads it turns out I don't need a screw. By taking a page from Maxx Bear I can just use a punch to put a flair on the drive key rib to create a burr and that will hold the cast on tailwad in place. The original idea of the post and screw was for screw on felt wads but again, I had trouble with wad consistency because the felt squirms a bit during punching so comes out a bit angled on the sides. Inconsistent wads = inconsistent accuracy.

These new glue tailwads are very consistent. And no, I still haven't tried the LDPE for tailwads but will work around to it. I have saved up some LDPE to try melting and casting.

I thought about trying to screw a brush wad to the Lee slugs with the post (Russian style) by drilling through the nose but being sub bore diameter there would be a large shoulder of wad around the slug base. I may try that with the modified Nessler though.

I have ben told the Federal wads are thicker petal and more tapered than the wads I have so they may well be a better fit for Lee slugs. That and their cushion leg is a better design for slugs than Winchester wads I think. I will have to order some to try. I am leaning towards bore diameter slugs now (again!) though.

How is the back? Still giving you grief I guess. I hope you get that sorted out.

Longbow

[Vettepilot]

@Longbow: you and I might have covered this, but what of just drlling out a Lee slug and attaching a wad with a screw through the nose like some of the Russian designs??

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

You were posting while I was writing there.

Back is worse and worse. Legs are getting trembly, weak, and painful caused by pinched nerves in the back. Need that operation, but have logistics problems with that...

How's my bears? And the weather up there? 115 degrees and goin' nowhere but up here...

:~)

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Well hey! You're a wizard with molds. Just hog out a Lee mold. Make it straight side, and the od big enough to match the wad. Then screw a wad on!

To be honest, I haven't done mods I've thought of on the Lee molds 'cause I've been too lazy to crack out the 4 jaw lathe chuck and set it up. Mods using the mill haven't always turned out with perfection...

Maxx Bear is kind of clever and I like his vids. I wish he would post more.

Still putzing with some brass shell roundball loads for my AR-410 shotgun here. Finished a few test rounds last night.

Vettepilot

[longbow]

Sorry to hear about your back. Not good news. You don't want to delay too long with a pinched nerve, that can lead to bad things.

Yeah, the modified Nessler is really a Lee 7/8 oz. slug on steroids. It weighs 1 oz. in it's present form and rolls right up on it's nose. It casts to 0.729"/0.730" so is a good candidate for a screw on brush wad. Ill try the cast on glue wad first but will have to paper patch it because glue on bare bore doesn't seem like a good diea! The LDPE per Maxx Bear would work fine for bore diameter slug tailwad so maybe I'll try that.

Bears... we had bears but the neighbour lady doesn't like bears (or turkeys or squirrels, or deer, or birds or anything that lives in the forest) so she calls the conservation and they come and put out traps. So, bears are gone for now. We may get more in the fall.

Weather... HOT! Maybe not hot for you but hot for us! We are running 35°C so 97°F today. We do, and likely will, see over 40°C this summer so that's breaking 100°F. It is still green though and no fires so far. Last couple of years local forest fires have been a threat. Part of Castlegar was evacuated last year due to a fire.

I won't get to the range again until at least next week. I'll avoid the range on weekends. I like to shoot by myself and do some excavating to find slugs and walking around to find wads.

I hope you get your back fixed soon!

Take care.

Longbow

[Petander]

What a report!

Thank you, Longbow. Very interesting.

[missionary5155]

Howdy Longbow
That was near an epic report ! Super photos and real easy to follow. Thank you !
I read most all these posts and rejoice I have river bottoms to wander and hunt. If I can see anything out beyond 35 yards that is near a miracle. Winter opens that up some but by then the critters are well into the real thick cover.
Those under 2" groups look like something is working.

[longbow]

Yes, the Cooey seems to like most slug and round ball loads and has led me astray in that I get excellent groups from it then draw the conclusion that is a good load. The Mossberg doesn't think so! Yes, all guns are different and will have preferences but since shimming the Mossberg barrel and upgrading the trigger I would have figured it would respond well to good fitting slugs which these are, especially the Nesslers. That is a bit baffling.

Of course results here are hardly definitive with just 5 shots of each load from the two guns. I'll load up some more and repeat to see if the results are the same or at least close. If so then I would draw some conclusions of what slugs/loads to work with. Once I have "good" slug loads sorted out I'll try those through the Cooey, Mossberg and my Browning BPS slug guns. It is unlikely they will all shoot the same slug/load well but as long as accuracy is acceptable that will do. I'm not going to work up specific loads for each gun. The Mossberg was intended to be my bear protection gun so if I get reasonable accuracy at moderate range that is good enough and it may come down to shooting round balls. So far I have had best success and consistent groups out to about 50m using round balls.

My other goal was to have a slug load that would stay under 6" at 100m from smoothbore. That is the main reason I have persevered and tried so many slug variations. Round balls do well out to maybe 70m but groups are opening up fast by then and tend to be unpredictable at 100m. To get there I may well have to work up a "sniper" load for a specific gun which would be okay.

Yes, I should just buy a rifled gun but I am stubborn and want a smoothbore load that works out to 100m so will try some more. The tinkering is where the fun is!

Longbow

[Petander]

The Mossberg was intended to be my bear protection gun so if I get reasonable accuracy at moderate range that is good enough and it may come down to shooting round balls. So far I have had best success and consistent groups out to about 50m using round balls.


Longbow

I'm a big fan of round balls. I bought an old 870 last winter,just because a new rifled barrel was available. Good accuracy up to 75 m. Good being 3" or so.

The same load from a cylinder barrel Benelli shoots the same 3" group @ 35 meters. Do I need to shoot a bear for protection longer than that? I think not.

A rifled barrel for your Mossberg might work.

[Vettepilot]

Yeah, I have 5 shotguns, and there is not a rifled barrel available for any of them! Bummer, as I would like to experiment with one!

An adventure with Lee slugs and wads:

So, on those wads with Lee slugs. First off, it would be really cool if Lee would come up with some updated load data. Most of what's available is outdated and uses components you can't even get anymore. I complained to Lee about this, but who knows if they'll ever get around to an update.

Around a year ago, I didn't have Federal 12S0 wads and they weren't available to buy. I was able to get some Federal 12S4 wads though, and proceeded to load up some Lee slugs with them by cutting the longer petals of the 12S4 wads down even with the top of the slug. Seems like that would be fine, right??

Well, accuracy was very poor, and recoil quite stout. I figured the recoil was just due to Lee's loads being rather hot, and that the new (to me) shotgun was quite light plus did not have a recoil pad. It did actually bruise my shoulder though, so yeah, recoil was "stout". The very bad accuracy was another matter.

Later on at home, I was pondering various loads and fiddling with components. While pushing various wads, slugs, and combinations through my barrel for testing, I grabbed that 12S4 with cut petals/Lee slug combo and gave that a try. I COULD NOT BEGIN TO PUSH IT THROUGH THAT SMOOTH BORE BARREL!! Not even with persuasion from a rubber mallet! That was an "OH CRAP, I actually SHOT this before" moment!! At that point, I knew why those loads had high recoil. That was a sobering moment.

What I found was that the wad petals are tapered, being thinner at the top by a good amount. With the slug seated in the bottom of the cup, where the petals are thickest, the combo had an O.D. of .742" I believe it was. That does not fit well into a .729" bore!! And with that "drive key" cross bar in the Lee slugs, they don't swage down. I think it's a wonder that I didn't damage my shotgun with those shells.

Later on, I finally scored some Federal 12S0 wads, and those push through the bore nicely with a Lee slug bottom seated in the cup. Just a firm push by hand does it, as it should be.

On a different subject, a couple of last hints regarding punching out DIY wads. One, with difficult materials, I often get good results by using the drill press instead of hammering them out. Sharpen the punch well, chuck it up in the drill press, and have at it. If the punch is too big for your chuck, center drill the shaft, tap it to 1/4" x 20, then screw in a 1/4" bolt with the head cut off. Chuck that into the drill press.

When hammer punching, try this twist. Clamp the punch very tight in a vice, cutting hole upwards of course. Then lay your wad material on top, and whack it with a rubber mallet. It is really amazing how well this works!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X_t43s6-hN0

Long post; hope that's ok...

Be safe.

Vettepilot

[longbow]

Yes, round balls are easy to cast, easy to load and seem to be fairly easy to get decent accuracy from to at least 50m... better than many slugs I have tried! RB's should be fine for bear protection.

So, far in over 40 years of living here I have only had a couple of close and possibly risky encounters with black bears (and a couple when we lived in Kemano on the North coast of B.C.) but the local black bear population is increasing and there are also grizzlies in the high country where I will be picking huckleberries soon. It never hurts to be prepared!

We get black bears in our yard regularly and they are often quite close but they are not generally aggressive and I don't consider these risky encounters. Stumbling into a big sow with cubs in the bush is a different matter and I have done that. I have seen grizzlies but never been close... and don't want to be!

I may splurge and either buy a rifled barrel for the Mossberg or preferrably i'd buy a new Mossberg 2 or 3 barrel combo nthat includes a rifled barrel. That is good value for money and prices have been good in the past. Not sure if they are currently available in Canada or what the price is. I see a lot of "out of stock" notifications on websites and prices for most things have skyrocketed!

I have a couple of gift certificates for Ellwood Epps Sporting Goods. A new or new to ne gun should be in my near future. Time will tell!

Longbow

[longbow]

Vettepilot:

Yes, I have read that the Federal wads are thicker and more tapered than the Winchester wads and clones I have on hand. I have had wads with thiucker petals but not nearly as tapered as the Lee slugs. I think it was Randy that commented on his Lyman sabot slug cone and taper (same as Lee) fitting well in wads he had.

So, yes if the wad petals have lots of taper the manufacturers seem to have a given petal tip thickness then taper all the way to the bottom of the shotcup so beep shotcup = thicker petal at the base.

I doubt you were in danger with those loads as the petals should extrude or shear but there may be a bit of a pressure spike as the slug/wad hits the bore. If you didn't get sticky extraction presure was not likely terribly high.

I just may try your wad punching ideas! Thanks for that! I have thought about making a rotary punch to put in the drill press and run it while punching. With a good sharp edge that may minimize squirming of felt. I like the idea of felt wads because punching and screwing on is pretty easy and felt is readily available.

Longbow

[Vettepilot]

Yeah, I was thinking of you and your felt when sharing that tip. A benefit with that method too, is that the punch tends to stay sharp better.

Also try that method of clamping the punch in a vice and whacking the material instead of the punch. It's amazing how well that works.

Vettepilot