How do you know your dies are working? A tale of beginners woe

[crankycalico]

I have experience with a lee hand press and lee carbide pistol dies, .38 special. No laughing, no one can screw that up without being WEALLY WEALLY SPEEEEEECIAL


Anyway I finally got all my dies and have some issues...

.308
using Oregon true shot 170 grain cast checked rnfp
ppu brass: once fired and merely neck sized and UNSIZED but fired in rifle, has no neck tension on bullet.

to get bullet/cartridge into collet crimp I have to hold my hand press horizontal and support the cartridge case to stay horizontal.

used the factory crimp groove, and they DO crimp, however the bullet spins in place but doesn't go in or out. A lot like most Remington thunder bolts I have bought in the last 5 years.

No matter how far I seat the collet crimp die in, I have literally screwed it down until the lock collar is the only thing to hold onto. Once it gets that initial squeeze from the die, it does no more compression of the neck.

The only one that I can actually get to CRIMP and stay in place is one that I crimped by having the case mouth directly on/slightly ahead of the front band on the bullet. That stays in place really good. the case mouth is a straight tube, no roll or taper crimp, just looks like a factory JSP crimp.

Thought I might have done something wrong, so I tried doing a dummy round using sierra 150 grain fmj without cannelure. Using FLS and collet neck sizer, I GET NO CRIMP OR TENSION. no matter how far I seat that collet die in, no crimp.

Got rather angry and dug out my 8x57 die. grabbed a fired and unsized case, put in whats supposed to be a .325 cast PC and crimped bullet, put it in the 8x57 collet crimp and the thing is IT CRIMPED into the bullets crimping groove, but bullet spins freely. Seating the crimping die in further did NOTHING to tighten the neck down.

is there anyone willing to receive a few dummy rounds and bullets in the mail so they can actually tell me what the hell is going on?

[jcren]

The sizing die, or more precisely the expander button on the decapper, sets neck tension, not the crimp die. The lee collet crimp is designed to squeeze a short section of the neck, right at the end, to prevent bullet set back in handling. Over tightening it with lead bullets will actually make the crimp looser by squeezing the lead bullet down, but the springier brass will bounce back. If the bullet is not already snug in the neck before crimping, you are not sizing the neck small enough to start with. Lots of guys don't even crimp loads for bolt actions, relying solely on neck tension to hold the bullet.

[crankycalico]

well after going through the fls and even the neck collet, there is no tension what soever. not even with fmj. I honestly DONT know if its even sizing them.. Hence the question of anyone willing to let me send them a few samples.

[jcren]

Sounds like you just need a bit of help setting up your sizing die, or possible your brass is really hard and springing back too much. I don't load 308, so i would need your press and dies to sort it out (setting up your dies on my presses wouldnt help much). Where are you located? May be a member close by that could help.

[Smoke4320]

I would start by getting several US made commercial brass (Fed, Win or Rem) and a couple LC Brass and trying them first ..2 each will tell you all you need to know
have had issues with PPU brass in the past .. Springback "could" be your issue

[obssd1958]

I load for .308, and would be happy to help.

[country gent]

I would start with smoking a lubed unsized fired cases neck and shoulder and running into the sizing die to see where its sizing. this tells you how far down the die is sizing the neck. No try to hand seat a bullet in these necks if it goes the expander may be big or the bullets small. When this info is obtained then its time to measure . Measure case mouth Id carefully. See what it is then neck wall thickness. On .308 it should be around .011 thick on a side. Remove and measure the expander it should be around .306. The 308 has a shorter neck and it is possible to raise the die to where it dosnt size the neck shoulder area.

[popper]

308 brass is tough and the Lee neck sizer takes a whole lot of pressure to actually shrink the neck dia. Get the fl sizer and a good case lube.

[MT Chambers]

First, insert Lee crimp dies (and other Lee dies) in the bin with the other garbage, buy a set of Redding or Forster dies. Making good ammo is too important to use gimmicky junk dies.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The Lee Collet neck sizer must bump the shellholder hard to size the neck. As previously mentioned, a stardard full length sizing die will probably work better when starting. Lee dies are fine as is PPU brass, I use Lee dies and PPU brass. The case neck must be reduced in diameter to 'less than' bullet diameter to hold the bullet. Crimping is probably unnecessary for the 308, I do not crimp any of my 308 reloads and it is the rifle caliber I shoot the most except for 22LR. I usually like the neck inside diameter to be about .0005"-.001" smaller than my cast bullets, jacketed bullets i'll go .0005" to .002". You will find great prejudice/arrogant snobbery toward certain equipment. I have Lee, RCBS, Lyman, Redding - they all work just fine. I use the Lee collet die for my .243 reloading. I expect under MOA accuracy from two Savage 99's using those dies, with excellent case life. Again sizing tough brass with the Lee collet neck sizer die can be difficult. Read and re-read the instructions on that one. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die only on tube feed lever action cartridges, again crimping should be unnecessary for a 308, Though I suppose some semi-auto rifles might need a crimp to keep the bullet in place when feeding.

[crankycalico]

I don't know how much force is needed or how that amount of force "feels" when you do it, gorilla hands and nerve damage. But when I used the neck sizer, I had resistance when I pulled the case out of the die so assumed something was happening.

I decapped everything first on the lee universal decapper, it was fun. And dirty brass and such.

My plan is to simply do a citric acid bath on all the once fired cases I have, mix of nickel and brass Federal, brass Remington, and brass PPU. Then mix up a batch of watered down lee case lube, spritz in a bag and let everything dry over night.

then reset my dies using the press instructions, MIGHT be something different as the press instructions differed a slight amount from what came with the pistol dies..

Then im going to do some samples of unsized case, full length sized, and neck collet. and then do a dummy cartridge with the cast bullet. for each brand of brass I can scrounge up. and then a couple untouched bullets in a package.

Its just rather annoying. I didn't have this much trouble with my 38 special dies.

[ioon44]

First, insert Lee crimp dies (and other Lee dies) in the bin with the other garbage, buy a set of Redding or Forster dies. Making good ammo is too important to use gimmicky junk dies.

Good advice.

[toallmy]

If you are using the lee collet neck sizing die be careful not to get the collet stuck up when you first set up the die .

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The Lee case lube does not work very well, I use Hornady Unique in a little tub, applying with my fingers. There are many case lubes out there and most work better than the Lee case lube, lanolin, STP.... I find that different case brands sometimes require different die adjustments. I would sort your cases by headstamp and type - brass or nickel, work with a SINGLE headstamp using the brass cases until everything is working. Rimless bottle neck cases require different techniques than a rimmed straight case with relatively soft easy to size brass, that is just the way it is. Die setup to maintain proper headspace on the shoulder is important. The 38 Special MAY be the easiest cartridge to reload out there. The 308 is not a difficult cartridge to reload but adjustment of sizing dies is much more critical, case lubrication also is important to avoid all sorts of problems.

[John Boy]

When in doubt using the Lee 3 Spl seating die to perform the crimp ... read the instructions

https://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Pistol3.pdf

[crankycalico]

how deep in the die body is the top of the collet supposed to be? in all the cross sections I have seen, the distance is ALOT more on mine then im seeing.

Even going by the photo in the lee website and instructions, im like 3 times deeper. Ill toss photos up tomorrow.

[sigep1764]

Lets start from the beginning.

1. In your Lee die set, there will be a die marked FL or FL Sizer. This is a full length sizing die. Its job is remove the primer, swage down the body of the brass, swage down the neck of the brass, and finally, open the neck slightly with the expander button on the decapping pin as you lower the brass out of the die.

2. Raise the ram with the appropriate shell holder on your press all the way up.

3. Screw this FL die into the top of your press UNTIL IT TOUCHES THE SHELLHOLDER. I put this in bold because it is important. Tighten the die nut.

4. Lower the ram. Now we are going to adjust the decapping pin. It will adjust into and out of the die body by turning the center drilled nut on top of the die body to loosen and tighten around the decapping pin. The pin should be hanging about 3/16 of an inch out of the bottom of the FL Die. If primers do not pop out of the primer pocket when the ram is in its fully raised position, adjust the decapping pin to hang even more than 3/16 in out of the die until positive primer removal is achieved.

I may come off a little direct or blunt, please look past that. That is not my intention to embarrass or insult. Please give the above a try and report back with results and we can better assist you.

[Three44s]

Anyone wanting to throw their unbroken Lee equipment or tooling in a waste basket can kindly PM me and I will gladly pay the freight.

To the OP, I wonder if some of your problem may be that you are working with a hand press. The fact is that most have less leverage than your typical economy single stage bench mounted (non-compound leverage) press. And that ain’t much.

I do not understand which dies you are referring to in the Lee line up so I will take a “whack” at that:

The first die we should high light is your full length sizer for a bottle necked cartridge. That die is designed to size lubed cases only. To full length a case the die is adjusted to touch the shell holder. There is the term partial full length sizing but let’s leave that for another day.

The next die is the Lee collet neck sizer. This die is a neck sizer only. You do not lube cases for this operation. Rather you disassemble the die and place a wee bit of lube between the collet and the part it squeezes into after first cleaning the two parts. Also you never want to run the collet die with out an appropriate case inserted. If you do the collet will be stuck up inside the mandrel and you will likely need to take it apart to free it.

To adjust the collet neck sizer propperly you will need to first have a case in your shell holder, screw the collet neck sizer die down into the proximity and run the case to the top of the stroke until a slight resistance is felt. Once you have made contact between the top of the shell holder you need to lower the ram slightly and screw the collet neck sizer a wee bit deeper. When I say wee, I mean a very small amount of increase, as a little here amounts to a big change fast. Run the ram out full stroke again. You keep repeating this scenario until you get the result you want.

I can not give you a number as this is “seat of the pants” but what you are diong is you are squeezing the neck of your case against the mandrel with the sleeve (collet) that has the slots in it. If you try to over do it you will encounter forces beyond common sense very quickly.

As long as things are not out of whack somewhere you can gain neck tension but turning your collet die in deeper until you achieve your goal. Lee will custom make a smaller mandrel (pin that the inside of the neck is squeezed against) if it is too large. This usually happens with necks that are too thin or that have been inside reamed or outside neck turned.

The last die is the Lee crimp die. That one is also a collet style and you can not expect to cause a bullet to be held solely by using it. It only augments neck tension caused by resizing the neck prior to seating a bullet with either a full length die or the collet neck sizer first.

You can tell the difference between the collet neck sizer and the crimp die because the crimped is open on top where as the neck sizer is capped.

Three44s

[toallmy]

Let's start from the beginning first thing first what style Lee dies are you trying to get adjusted ? Full length sizing die , collet neck sizing die , bullet seating die , or a crimping die . Before you move to seating a bullet you first need to reduce the size of the neck on your fired brass so it will hold your bullet in place when seating it .

[crankycalico]

It was an issue of the dies coming with the instructions being written for a lee turret press. I remembered the aggravation from my pistol dies, and read the lee hand press manual.

BIG difference, the lee hand press manual has the little mention and photo drawing that shows a 1/4 inch gap when using NON CARBIDE dies, so I did that with my 8x57 dies, and PPU factory new brass resize really well.

Only hitch I had was that the FLS doesn't let a .325" cast and powder coated bullet slide in. Then I used the wrong expander in the lee universal expander, but it really let the bullet in well. And the FCD did a really good job on taking out most of the over generous belling on the case mouth.

[Three44s]

It was an issue of the dies coming with the instructions being written for a lee turret press. I remembered the aggravation from my pistol dies, and read the lee hand press manual.

BIG difference, the lee hand press manual has the little mention and photo drawing that shows a 1/4 inch gap when using NON CARBIDE dies, so I did that with my 8x57 dies, and PPU factory new brass resize really well.

Only hitch I had was that the FLS doesn't let a .325" cast and powder coated bullet slide in. Then I used the wrong expander in the lee universal expander, but it really let the bullet in well. And the FCD did a really good job on taking out most of the over generous belling on the case mouth.

Ok, I read the part in the online instructions ........ I don’t own that press so I got it off the net.

Lee has a diagram showing 1/4” gap from the handle to the press frame. That would seem to me that they are advocating shell holder to bottom of die contact plus’s.

Does your instructions say that?

Three44s

[crankycalico]

I got the 4 die set, the paper work just gives the "close ram till shell holder hits die, lower ram then turn die so many more turns down.."

Had to dig my hand press instructions out. Helped so much, LEE really does forget they sell certain products, or just assume bad things about customers.

[1hole]

On average, Lee's dies are as good as anyone's common dies and slightly better than some big names.

Lee's collet neck sizers and collet crimpers are the best dies of their type, period. There is a learning curve to both that people who insist on simply pushing cases into their dies as far as they can go and pulling them back out will never learn.

Die instructions and photos are generic, they do NOT show how much every die for every cartridge is supposed to work. And Lee only suggests how to adjust dies to be useable on their own presses; that seems reasonable to me. No matter what press and/or dies are being used the "instructions" can only get us in the ballpark, getting to that last bit of perfection requires a bit of personal experimentation.

Once Lee's collets, size or crimp, are fully closed no amount of additional lever pressure can do anything but damage the die or press. It really doesn't take a lot of ram pressure to fully reduce thin case necks, or to crimp them.

I'm unsure what sizing sequence you're using. Are you only neck sizing or both FL and neck? Either way, your seated bullets should be plenty tight if they are crimped or not. ?? If your case necks are actually sized correctly and bullets can be seated by hand the FL expander OR the neck sizer mandrel has to be oversized OR the bullets are undersized; there isn't anything else at play. And crimping won't fix that.

Whatever you do, please don't discard your Lee dies. A lot of us will happily pay the postage to get and use them.

[Three44s]

I got the 4 die set, the paper work just gives the "close ram till shell holder hits die, lower ram then turn die so many more turns down.."

Had to dig my hand press instructions out. Helped so much, LEE really does forget they sell certain products, or just assume bad things about customers.

If you are turning your die down several turns past contact you are likely reducing your leverage with your press, and as a hand help unit you need all the advantage you can muster.

I read from the Lee site that you want your press handle separated from the frame by 1/4” at contact with non-carbide dies. That is likely so one can optimize leverage.

Three44s

[EDG]

"On average, Lee's dies are as good as anyone's common dies and slightly better than some big names."

I disagree. There are no BIG names in reloading dies although Lee would like to be. Lee is still learning how to design dies that are not cheaped out.
Lee tends to focus too much on appearing different and appearing innovative when they still need to master the fundamentals..
1. Rubber O ring on 7/8-14 lock ring does not hold precision setting if you install and remove the die.
2. The round die boxes were a mistake and a joke from day one. If you want to pay the postage I can ship you 4 or 5 empty round die boxboxes.
3. The Lee expander in pistol dies is too short.
4. The Lee expander design in bottle neck rifle rounds was proven to be stupid. The long cylindrical section was a poor feature that has been changed.
5. The decapper having a slip nut is also poor. I hate a design that requires major force on 2 wrenches just to clean out the die.
6. The Lee seater has almost no length to the bullet guide diameter.
7. While it does not concern me I have read of many guys that complain of Lee die bodies being too short for some progressive presses.