Least corrosive black powder substitute?

[Naphtali]

For use only in percussion cap locks, what is the least corrosive black powder substitute available?

[Kuato]

Triple 7 works ok..

[PatMarlin]

One thing I found yesterday is Triple 7 corrodes the crap out of brass.

At the end of the day I came in to clean my rifles and found the brass jags on the BP ramrod that sits under the muzzle was corroded green. I had to heavily wire brush that off. That happened within 2 hours of shooting. Left some pitting too.

Next time, I'm gonna make sure I have those jags oiled.

The 7 in the bore, on the nipples and all steel cleans right away with water and a patch or rag. Very nice and deosn't smell.

[frontier gander]

For a sidelock i like pyrodex P.

[mooman76]

With ML powders basically they are corrosive or they aren't. If they are less corrosive than another, does that mean you aren't going to clean it right away? No, you will still clean it and the effort is still the same. Pyrodex claims to be less corrosive but it isn't enough to be noticable to me. Some sub aren't (they claim) corrosive and there are allot out there but some don't work as well either. American Pioneer Powder claims to be non-corrosive and it does work reasonably well. It is the only substitute that I know of that you can use in a flintlock. If you use TC wonderlube it cuts way down on the corrosion. I checked it to see if it was true and I shot my BP rifle and left it uncleaned for a week(checking it daily and it showed no signs of corrosion when usually you would see it in just one day. I might add I wiped the Wonderlube on the outside parts around the lock before I shot it.

[frontier gander]

APP sucks. I hardly doubt it can be used in a flintlock without dumping some real BP under it first.

Its like gravel and absorbs moisture easily.

[wiljen]

All the BP subs are hygroscopic (they attract water) and are going to promote corrosion. I think you pay your $ and take your choice and just plan on cleaning after shooting.

[Digital Dan]

All the BP subs are hygroscopic (they attract water) and are going to promote corrosion. I think you pay your $ and take your choice and just plan on cleaning after shooting.


The obvious question then, why use substitutes?

[mooman76]

I've never tried APP in a flint. I may try some day but I haven't had much experience with the flintlock , mostly caplock. I asked a guy that I buy guns from alot and he is into shooting said it would work. He seems to be an upfront and honest dealer and hasn't given me a bad deal yet and really has no reason to lie about it. He also recomended if used to take a small amount and carefully crush it into finer granuals. Personally I'd just as soon use the real thing but it is getting harder and harder to find these days.

[Bullshop]

DD
One answer is cuz I cant get anything else.

[Kuato]

As I stated above, Triple 7 works ok. Now, as far as actually shooting the stuff, I don't really care for it. I use straight black. If you're looking for a sub to use that wont corrode your bore due to not cleaning it for a while, stick to smokeless rifles. Muzzleloaders HAVE to be cleaned!

[badgeredd]

My experience has been that Triple 7 seems to be less corrosive and easier to clean up thoroughly than Pyrodex. Seems like I have a problem getting the very last remnants of the Pyrodex. Actually I think BP is the easiest to clean up completely. As previously said, they are all corrosive and a firearm needs to be cleaned as soon as posible after shooting, but you knew that.

[frontier gander]

Stuck the Breech end of the barrel down into a bucket of hot soapy water and any blackpowder sub is easy to clean. Even works very well with the real stuff.

[Underclocked]

Black Mag 3 is easy to ignite, clean to shoot - and supposedly non-corrosive. Of course, you will still need to clean. The big negative with that powder is that it tends to clump up and you can only get it from one, expensive source so far as I know.

[Digital Dan]

DD
One answer is cuz I cant get anything else.


In all the Klondike there is no black? My Gawd that's sad.:cry:

[PatMarlin]

Black is now considered an explosive. Nobody in CA carries it that I know of. I never tried to order it and pay a hazmatt as yet.

Triple 7 is working well in my shotguns so far. I actually enjoy cleaning my muzzle loaders. It's part of the fun for me.

[frontier gander]

BP has always been classified as an explosive. And it is. Cleaning doesnt take long at all, just bothers some people if they have shot a lot that day and are tired.

Aint going to hurt a thing by skipping it for a few days.

[wiljen]

Problem around here is the closest stocking dealerships are several hundred miles away and the outfits that will ship BP want to sell a minimum of 5lbs at time (An amount greater than what I use per year). I'd love to have a shop here that carried Goex, Swiss, Elephant, kik, and Wano, but it just ain't like the good old days when I bought Goex for $7 a can at the local hardware store. I've even tried making it a time or two (In very small quantities, and yes I have a chemistry background and am aware this is not entirely without risk).

[PatMarlin]

I've got data on how to make it including building a tumbler some where. Maybe we should look into that?

[fishhawk]

i happen to disagre with the statment that BP is a explosive it does not "explode" like TNT or DET cord what it does do is burn rapidley at the same rate confined or unconfined there is no cemical reaction other than burning and the release of gas as it burns so that is the reason it is considerd a low explosive but does not "explode" steve k

[PatMarlin]

Tell that to the Terminator.

[PatMarlin]

Not directing this towards anyone but WHY is the BP crowd so damn fussy and defensive?

Holy Black
Evil inline
Sidelock purists
Evil powder subsitutes
This has got to be the stuffiest group in all of the shooting industry.

It really boogles my mind... :roll:

I think the guys with the problems regarding BP should go eat some cold turkey and hurl.. :mrgreen:

[felix]

Black powder is an "alloy" of seperate chemicals (elements, in this formulation, except for one) and depends on the proximity of the constituents to burn at all. Primer material, for example, is a true explosive, meaning it will burn completely once started. Smokeless powder is designed to be container regulated, and when started "out of specification", and only then, will it burn like a primer. That is what we call a "SEE" condition on this board. ... felix

[fishhawk]

not being defensive at all thats what the feds have is classed at a low explosive in there "definifition" its a explosive, probley the same one wrote the rules that also says that smokeless powder "explodes" in the cartrige. steve k

[felix]

DOT regulations boggle my mind, Steve. It's the insurance lobbiests, sanctioned by the EPA, causing our problems. ... felix

[PatMarlin]

not being defensive at all thats what the feds have is classed at a low explosive in there "definifition" its a explosive, probley the same one wrote the rules that also says that smokeless powder "explodes" in the cartrige. steve k

Wasn't directing towards you Steve. The stuffy ones know who they are.. :bigsmyl2:

[chuebner]

BP has always been classified as an explosive. And it is. Cleaning doesnt take long at all, just bothers some people if they have shot a lot that day and are tired.

Aint going to hurt a thing by skipping it for a few days.

My Dad had a mantra that he drilled into my brother and I.

"CLEAN THE GAME!"
"CLEAN THE GUNS!"
"CLEAN YOURSELF!"

In that order, no excuses about being tired.

charlie

[waksupi]

Pat, those terms are generally poked in fun!




Not directing this towards anyone but WHY is the BP crowd so damn fussy and defensive?

Holy Black
Evil inline
Sidelock purists
Evil powder subsitutes
This has got to be the stuffiest group in all of the shooting industry.

It really boogles my mind... :roll:

I think the guys with the problems regarding BP should go eat some cold turkey and hurl.. :mrgreen:

[PatMarlin]

I know I really stepped in it this time ...:mrgreen:

[PatMarlin]

Cleaning BP shooters is like what I'm doing right now and do all the time- Stacking Lumber.

It's a chore, it's time consuming, but when you own a mill ya got to do it. It's therapy for me.

[KCSO]

Starting in 1972 I helped lobby the Game Commission for a BLACK POWDER muzzleloadng season. Our premise was the the TRADITIONAL m/l rifle was of limited range, limited power and of limited reliability. After YEARS of work we finaly got a Muzzleoading rifle deer season in 1984. The first year there were less than 1500 permits sold statewide and our local muzzleloading club gained 23 members. Within 2 years the State decided that if they made it EASIER they could SELL MORE permits and make more money. They started loosening the rules and the first year they allowed inlines our club membership dropped back 25 members.
Permit sales doubled and then went up on the order of 10. Nine out of ten shooteres in the current muzzleloadng season want nothing to doo with muzzleloaidn but only desire to hunt in a less crowded season. They want a totally waterproof gun that has long range the power of a modern gun and they want a powder that they can either delay or forget cleaning, they wan't rifle season with limited acess! If we went back to Flintlock rifles of 45 or more and BLACK powder there would be the same number of hunters as there were the first year. As it is now they might as well follow Missouri and call it primitive weapons season and allow Sharps rifles.

Now I hunt with a modern rifle on occasion and have nothing againnst anyone who does, but to have some nimrod show me his Savage 110 smokless powder MUZZLELOADER and tellme how he's hunting the OLD TIME way is just a joke. And when that same nimrod says he's just trying to get an extra deer in an uncrowded season without ALL THE WORK involved with a traditional gun I am sorry I worked so hard for a PRIMITIVE season.

Now if you want to shoot Uncle Sam's patented B/P substitute and a jacketed saboot'ed bullet fine by me, but don't expect me to welcome you into my camp. I have an inline rifle in my shop, I made a lamp out of it! I won't work on or sell an inline and I belong to a traaditional club where they are not allowed. I don't post much here as I know my traditional views are not well accepted. I'll bet that if we allowed single shot rifles in PWS the inline would die overnight and I for one wouldn't miss it! II would much rather see somebody hunting with an honnest single shot than a goofy dummied up hybrid made just to skirt the rules.

Lest anyone gets the idea that I am somewhat prejudiced against inlines and subistute B/P I'll clarify my position, Black powder only and traditional rifles only if you wan't to hunt in my camp.

[451whitworth]

KCSO, i think you are thinking of Mississippi not Missouri. MO dosen't allow breechloaders during muzzleloading season.

[Underclocked]

What has accuracy to do with opinion? :)

[13Echo]

I'm with KCSO on this one. The Inline muzzle loader with stainless steel barrels, discarding sabot projectiles, special powders, scope sights, special primers, etc. is about as primitive as the main gun on an Abrams tank.

My 2 cents

Jerry Liles

[mooman76]

Here we go again!

[MT Gianni]

KCSO, you are welcome at my campfire anytime. Gianni
I will not offend you but my nephews may or may not depending on what they are carring. they don't get any more game than the tradionalist, just got a good deal at the pawn shop.G

[flintlocknfur]

Ok... First ya call me a mentally unstable purist with emotional problems, now fussy and defensive? Im actually getting pretty poed. Its a pretty good thing your not in front of me right now.

If you like your ugly inlines fine! They are garbage not worthy to be used for a fence post! If your not gonna hold your tounge Im not either!

Throw the over commercialized crap in the river along with all the lousy better than anything substitutes and call track or powder inc and get some real powder.

If your gonna use a modern gun use a modern gun and quit poking fun at those of us that don't need to.

Now Im going back where Im welcome.

[Naphtali]

Can anyone shriek, "Topic Hijack?"

[PatMarlin]

KCSO- that's a valid viewpoint that I had not considered.

flintlocknfur- that's over the top in my opinion.

But to each his own. I think that if an orginizations rules are "Primative" with no modern BP rifles than so be it. I respect that. Just as you should respect the fact that I own and enjoy my inline shotgun, my TC Hawken, and my basterdized Lyman here on this site,.

No one has said including myself that you are not wanted here flintlocknfur. I never poked fun at your rifle once, and your the one who told me to throw my rifle in the river on previous posts, just because YOU don't like it.

I suppose since my Marlin's and Winchesters are not flintlocks I autta chuck them also?

Please... :roll:

[PatMarlin]

For a final comment flintlocknfur- I think your last post validates my earlier prejudcial ones, unless your physical comments are totally tongue and cheek, thereby I stand corrected.

[looseprojectile]

have the last word.
I do believe that the people that are using the inlines are ready to jump on the next improvement. That would be the self contained cartridge. Just think, you could then design a BREECH loading gun.
That said, I have not had an oppurtunity to experience the joys of an inline rifle though they should work. I do enjoy all kinds of firearms and love to burn powder regardless of the chemistry or design of the gun or missle or bomb.
This all started when I was an Aviation Ordnanceman in the US Navy. I was seventeen in 1960 and loved to blow stuff up. Napalm is good also. I had an oppurtunity to deal with nuclear weapons also. Wonder what a MICRO nuke would to a charging elephant.[smilie=1:
Life is good

[Heavy lead]

This is better than a cheerleader chick fight!

[hylander]

I shoot a Lyman Great Plains 50 cal., it is the best BP rifle I have had.
I have used quite a few different BP & Subs.
I now use 777 only.
It gives me about 300FPS more with the same charge and less extreme spead than anything else and Accuracy is awsome. Clean up is a breeze, I can use water or regular solvents. I have never had any Rust or Corrosion at all, even if I let it set for a couple of days before I clean it. My Bore still looks new after Hundreds of shots and several hunting trips.
FYI: There is no place around here to get real BP

[PatMarlin]

Last word.

[flintlocknfur]

The first comment was a jest. Ive got no real problems with your inlines, Ive outshot lots of them.

Then these comments were directed at me/us. I don't appreciate either.

"I know you guys that are BP "purists" have emotional problems"

"Not directing this towards anyone (ya right) but WHY is the BP crowd so damn fussy and defensive?"

[waksupi]

Shaun, you are proving the statement.

[Flinchrock]

Starting in 1972 I helped lobby the Game Commission for a BLACK POWDER muzzleloadng season. Our premise was the the TRADITIONAL m/l rifle was of limited range, limited power and of limited reliability. After YEARS of work we finaly got a Muzzleoading rifle deer season in 1984. The first year there were less than 1500 permits sold statewide and our local muzzleloading club gained 23 members. Within 2 years the State decided that if they made it EASIER they could SELL MORE permits and make more money. They started loosening the rules and the first year they allowed inlines our club membership dropped back 25 members.
Permit sales doubled and then went up on the order of 10. Nine out of ten shooteres in the current muzzleloadng season want nothing to doo with muzzleloaidn but only desire to hunt in a less crowded season. They want a totally waterproof gun that has long range the power of a modern gun and they want a powder that they can either delay or forget cleaning, they wan't rifle season with limited acess! If we went back to Flintlock rifles of 45 or more and BLACK powder there would be the same number of hunters as there were the first year. As it is now they might as well follow Missouri and call it primitive weapons season and allow Sharps rifles.

Now I hunt with a modern rifle on occasion and have nothing againnst anyone who does, but to have some nimrod show me his Savage 110 smokless powder MUZZLELOADER and tellme how he's hunting the OLD TIME way is just a joke. And when that same nimrod says he's just trying to get an extra deer in an uncrowded season without ALL THE WORK involved with a traditional gun I am sorry I worked so hard for a PRIMITIVE season.

Now if you want to shoot Uncle Sam's patented B/P substitute and a jacketed saboot'ed bullet fine by me, but don't expect me to welcome you into my camp. I have an inline rifle in my shop, I made a lamp out of it! I won't work on or sell an inline and I belong to a traaditional club where they are not allowed. I don't post much here as I know my traditional views are not well accepted. I'll bet that if we allowed single shot rifles in PWS the inline would die overnight and I for one wouldn't miss it! II would much rather see somebody hunting with an honnest single shot than a goofy dummied up hybrid made just to skirt the rules.

Lest anyone gets the idea that I am somewhat prejudiced against inlines and subistute B/P I'll clarify my position, Black powder only and traditional rifles only if you wan't to hunt in my camp.

I agree completely!!!

[corey012778]

I try to stay out of debates but this one I am going to try to bring this back on topic.

least corrosive black powder sub?

really some are better then others.

basically:
When you get done shooting, range or shooting while hunting, cleaning your gun. bring some cleaning stuff with you to you camp, leave it in your truck, where ever. learn where your black powder or sub shoots with a clean barrel. if you want to clear the channel, push an patch down the barrel and pop you caps.

what ever you shot, if don't keep it clean your going to have problems.


if your a "purists" or a inline shooter, we are part of the same community.

[mooman76]

When I shoot RB I usually use spit patch. I don't need to clean between shots that way. I figure the spit patch swabs the barrel at the same time. When shooting a minie or maxie sometimes I need to swab after I shoot a few rounds and sometimes I don't depending on the gun and that is because acuracy is droping off.

[frontier gander]

spit patch is fine for target shooting but when hunting, the spit will dry out and not offer any protection.

[mooman76]

spit patch is fine for target shooting but when hunting, the spit will dry out and not offer any protection.

Yes that is true so for hunting I don't use spit patch, I use TC wonderlube and I'm not shooting multipule times so it's not a problem there either.