Tell me about the 25-35 WCF

[am44mag]

Anybody have any experience with this old round? We found an OLD box of it that belonged to my great grandfather and it got me interested in it. Sadly, we don't have his rifle anymore (would dang near kill for it), but I've been thinking of taking a Winchester 94 in 30-30 and having the barrel sleeved and chambered for the 25-35. I might try taking on that project next Summer.

[pworley1]

I have a Savage 99 in the 25 35 Winchester. I think it is a very accurate round and it gets the job done on white tails.

[tim338]

I have a 1894 Winchester in that caliber. Mine is a good shooter as well.

[Outpost75]

The .25-35 also makes a great small game gun when loaded down to .25-20 levels.

Factory .25-35 loads feature a 117-gr. soft-point bullet. Some 50-year-old Super-X rounds and current Winchester ammo chronographed just shy of 2300 f.p.s. from the 26 inch barrel. Factory loads are expensive and not sold at Wal-Mart. Lee data table which came with the Lee die set lists 20 grains of 4198 with the 117-gr. Hornady. This shot very well and chronographed about 2100 f.p.s. No deer around our woods here is likely to know the difference.

Old timers tell me that the .25-35 was the most accurate chambering in the Winchester 94 because its small bore makes for a heavier, more rigid barrel. Its 8-inch twist handles quiet, subsonic cast bullet loads very accurately, while getting great penetration because they auger on through, if not driven so fast they blow up.

You can load as little as 4 grains of fast burning pistol or shotgun powder with 85-87-gr. lead plain-based bullets. The Meister or RCBS cowboy slugs drive inch and half groups at 50 yards with iron sights and make little more noise than a .22 LR, but are more effective. I don’t know whether the factories ever loaded small game rounds for the .25-35 like they did for the .30-30. But when hand-loaded with either jacketed or cast lead bullets designed for the .25-20. the .25-35 WCF makes a fine small game cartridge.

I use Lee dies, and an RCBS .25-20 Cowboy expander. When the Ideal tang sight is zeroed for factory 117-gr. loads at 200 yards, small game loads shot to the sights at 50 yards and gave inch and half groups.

RCBS bullets were cast of wheel weights and shot un-sized in reworked .30-30 brass. A charge of 5 grs. of SR7625 or 6 grains of PB with 85-87 grain cast bullets approximate the 1300 f.p.s. velocity of the .25-20. Using 4 grains of Bullseye gave 1120 f.p.s. and 5 grains of Bullseye gave 1200 f.p.s. The fastest cast bullet load which shot acceptably was 7 grs. of #2400 for 1420 f.p.s.

Back when you could still get them I bought a load of Remington 85-gr. JSP .25-20 bullets. Firing expansion tests in water jugs confirmed my memories of factory .25-20 loads. At 1270 f.p.s. using 8 grs. of PB the soft points perforate without expansion and penetrate deeply. Bumping their velocity to 1400 f.p.s. using 10 grains of #2400 expanded them 0.32 caliber, with no appreciable weight loss. But drive these thinly jacketed soft-point bullets much faster than they were designed to go, and they fragment violently, making a non-ricochet varmint load. Testing at 50 yards with 14 grs. of #2400 at 1950 f.p.s. on a Food Lion meat manager’s special fryer chicken, pieces of bird were scattered all over Berkeley County. Neighborhood cats, raccoons and foxes appreciated this, as by morning even not even a trace was left!

We had the best luck forming cases from once-fired Winchester .30-30 brass. I used Imperial Sizing Die Wax and the die spacer which comes with RCBS .38/.357 dies to back off the FL sizer for the first pass. This decaps and partially forms the neck and shoulder, without finishing the case taper..

After pre-forming, case necks are gas annealed. Then you can full-length resize in a second die pass without buckling the shoulder. Cases then must be trimmed to length. Lee can provide a custom case length trim gage to use with their .30-30 cutter and lock stud. You won't need to ream case neck. As long as brass is formed in two stages with an inter-draw anneal between you don't lose any. If you try this with Remington or Federal brass you will wrinkle shoulders on about half of your cases. Wrinkled shoulders will work once for hunting loads which you “Pop and Toss,” but develop pin holes if you reload them repeatedly.

231937231938231939231940231941

Winchester 1894 with 26-inch octagon barrel ca. 1908

________________Velocity_______Remarks
Factory loads
Western 117ST_____2283, 7 Sd___Old yellow box from 1960s
Winchester 117PP___2259, 19Sd___Current product from Midway 2.5 in. @ 100 yds. Ideal tang sight

Jacketed bullet handloads
Remington 85JSP (.25-20)
Powder___Grs____Vel._________Remarks
IMR-PB_____8____1273, 33 Sd__Minimal expansion, non-destructive small game or turkey load
Alliant#2400_9____1330, 31 Sd__POI at 50 yds. with 200-yd. factory load zero. Minimal expansion.
"__________10____1419, 11 Sd__Moderate water jug expansion to .32 cal., good game load
"__________12____1738, 15 Sd__Expands to .45 in water, core separates, blows fragments off nose
"__________14____1950, 25 Sd__Violent fragmentation, blows frying chicken to smithereens
"__________15____2200, 39 Sd__Max. do not exceed, explosive fragmentation, highly destructive varmint load
IMR4227____16____1884, 22Sd __Varmint load blows frying chicken to smithereens


RCBS 25-85CM Cast 12 BHN from wheelweights, shot as-cast, .259" unsized, Lee Liquid Alox
(Meister 85-gr. .258 dia. can be substituted, but is less accurate)

Powder___Grs____Vel._________Remarks
Bullseye___4_____1127, 5 Sd____Quiet like standard velocity .22 LR, 2 inches at 50 yds.
"_________5_____1207, 27 Sd___Report like .22 LR high velocity, 2 inches @ 50 yd.
IMR-PB____5_____1272, 14 Sd___Inch 5-shot groups at 50 yds. most accurate with current powders
"_________6_____1339, 21 Sd___Approximates factory .25-20 velocity, 1.5 inches @ 50yds
SR-7625___5_____1285, 16 Sd___Excellent, older lot of 7625 performs little different from PB load
Alliant#2400_7____1420, 29 Sd___Max. for plainbased bullet, groups 1.5 inches @ 50 yds.

[Tatume]

I'm glad Outpost75 stepped up with his informative post, to which I have little to add. If you can find a good original rifle so chambered, you will have an excellent deer rifle.

[Rimfire]

I have a win.55 in 25-35 accurate with both cast and jacketed. When forming cases from 30-30 brass I like new W-W brass,to avoid shoulder wrinkles remove the neck expander button from 32-40 FL sizer dies and run the 30-30 brass through it first. This will put the rapid taper on the case that the 25-35 has. This will lessen the shoulder wrinkles you get when you run a regular 30-30 case into the 25-35 die.

[GooseGestapo]

Don’t overlook the new Hornady 110gr FTX factory loads.
MidwayUSA has them in stock for $29.95. Buy two boxes and get free shipping.

My .25/35 is actually a Marlin.25-36M. I use .30/30brass reformed by necking down using Lee .25/35 dies. They’re not perfect .25-36M, but work very well. I’m using CFE223 and the Hornady bullet for 2,250fps. Accuracy is 2.5” at 100yds 5-shots.

The only problem with loading down to .25-20 levels is the large shift (downward) in point-of-impact.

[Shawlerbrook]

I have a 1906 vintage Win 1894 SRC in 25 35 that is a dream to carry on a whitetail walk. Highly recommended!

[bob208]

I have 2 flat band carbines in .25-35. I have never fired them. I do have a rifle a takedown in 25-35 it is one flat shooting rifle.

[BigEyeBob]

I have a martini small frame in 25-35 ,need to finish the build ,so cant add any info regarding loads or accuracy . Case forming is not easy . Im using PPU brass ,some getting wrinkles ,the info from Outpost is welcomed .

[Good Cheer]

With jacketed factory duplication loads you'll get surprising penetration.

Got mine in the mid 90's to tinker with cast and chase jack rabbits. The long case neck is nice for cast but I soon discarded notions of duplicating the factory load bullet weight.
If your state regs will let you squirrel hunt with a 25-35 that would be a hoot. Making it behave like a .25 caliber pellet rifle is totally doable.

[doccash]

I bought a saddle ring carbine in .25-35 this past summer, they are relatively rare in that configuration, for 1600.00. A real pleasure to shoot and brass is not uncommon at gun shows. I bought RCBS dies and have played with several handloads using the 115 Hndy round nose mostly and some cast bullets as well. Blackhorn 209 [25gr.] is a pleasure to shoot with the Hndy bullet and just spooky accurate, my favorite load. Killed a coyote last week at 50 yards, the rifle shoots to the sights at 100 yards and I just love the thing. Dr.C

[Texas by God]

This one and the 32-40 are calling my name a little....

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[David LaPell]

I had a 1894 SRC once in .25-35, it had been in the same family for almost all it's life, and was from a Utah sheep ranch. It had gotten ALOT of use, it was made in 1909. When I first saw it the forearm had been worn down from being taken in and out of a scabbard so much, the rear sight had been taken off some time, the front sight was wrong, the saddle ring missing and there was actually a small crack in the frame. The one thing too was that the buttstock had broken once and had been replaced by a piece of rough cut ponderosa pine and shaped and fitted so that the buttplate fit. It had come here to NY somehow and ended up with the nephew of the owner, and was in a crate under his bed for something like 30 years. I didn't get it first, another guy bought it, had the crack replaced to the point you would never have known and had all new wood put on it. I wish he'd kept the ponderosa pine buttstock because it was a heck of a conversation piece. I got it cheap, put on the correct rear sight and front sight, put in a new mainspring and shot it, the gun had a perfect bore and cut 1-inch groups with factory ammo at 25 yards all day long. I took it hunting a few times but never got a shot at a deer with it. I ended up selling it later on, wished I had hung onto it. It's a nice caliber, just a necked down .30-30 but will work on deer just fine.

[OverMax]

I have a 25-35. Not a carbine but a original long barrel 1894.
I much prefer a 30-30 over a 25-35 although both are-equally close range accurate. The 30-30 has the better of the two bullet selection for Big Game. The carbine model 25-35 was appropriately considered years ago _a Lady's rifle as it's 117 gr. cartridge isn't as recoil punishing as its 30wcf or 32-special Brethren.

[MT Gianni]

I spent a few hours BSing with Howard Copenhaver a long time outfitter in Montana's Bob Marshall Wilderness. I was there with a shirttail relative of his and had my back against a Grizzly robe Howard shot. He was not a large man but outfitted for decades in rough country. I doubt he weighed 145 lbs and he packed and shot a 25-35 as his only gun. as he put it "It ain't what you hit em with, it's where you hit em."
That caliber has never bitten me hard though I love the 7-30 waters.

[Loudenboomer]

As Kid one of my "Hunting Uncles" (most of us had them right?) hunted with a 25-35. A saddle ring carbine 94 that he revived second hand as a boy about 1939. It was drilled and taped for and old scope shortly there after. My other uncles would rib him a bit about his pea shooter. He was a marksmen and new the rifle well as it was his only deer rifle. He passed last year in his 80's with failing eye sight and unable to hunt his last few years. That little 25-35 killed quite a bunch of Minnesota deer. Another if that rifle could only talk!

[Reverend Al]

I also have an early 1900's vintage '94 SRC in .25-35 and it is a nice, light little carbine that shoots well with the Hornady 117 round nose bullet. Haven't tried shooting cast in mine yet (still have FAR too many project guns to get to and keep buying more!) but will eventually get to it. Years ago an old shooting friend had a Winchester 1885 High Wall that had been re-barreled and re-chambered by Ackley into .25-35 Ackley Improved. I had always hoped to talk him out of it one day, but when he passed it went to someone in the family.

[BigEyeBob]

Id be grateful to you Outpost75 if you could tell me the thickness of the spacer you use under the 357 fls die .I have two sets of 357 dies one is by Pacific and the other is RCBS ,niether cowboy dies . The dies Ive been using to form brand new PPU 30/30 cases to 25-35 were made by CH4D and I have to really lean on the press to get some where near a good form ,most times I have to run them through two or three times ,then the cases are tight in the chamber .I machined .020"of a Lee shell holder to get the fls die down a bit further ,and was considering grinding .020" off the bottom of the fls die ,but really dont want to do that .The 357 fls dies first step I will have to try ,the spacer I can machine up ,so would like to try that .Appreciate the information you have already provided .

[Texas by God]

I could be wrong and frequently am but I think the spacer washer is .10" thick.

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[Jedman]

232208232209232210I have a win. 94 made in 1909 that my father in law gave me before he passed. I t has a marbles peep and original front sight but shoots left a couple inches at 100 yards, I need to drift the front sight to correct this as the marbles doesn't have windage adjustment.
I bought RCBS dies and have made some brass from 30-30 but don't have the process perfected.

It is a pleasure to shoot as its not all that loud and recoil is light, I haven't taken a deer or antelope with it yet but plan to soon. It's a gun I will never sell or trade as it meant a lot to me that my father in law new I was the " gun guy " and would actually use it instead of taking it to a pawn shop for a few bucks.

Jedman

[Mr_Sheesh]

BigEyeBob, the number I have here is 0.135", let me check though... Hmmm measures at 0.125" using the cheap calipers I could find at this hour.

[Texas by God]

Jedman, that rifle is a treasure.
Francis Sell wrote some great articles on hunting lever action guns; he developed an improved 25-35 called the Tomcat if I remember right. It was built on a rechambered Marlin 36A if I recall.

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[Shawlerbrook]

Great thing also is that brass is easy to find, unlike some of my other leverguns.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/679?

[BigEyeBob]

Thanks .I went down to the workshop last night and tried the 357 fls die and just adjusted it and run a few federal cases through until i just got a slight ring further down the case . Then annealled and run them into the 25-35fls die using some lanolin/alcohol spray .Let the spray dry off ,but still got wrinkles at the shoulder .I cleaned the die out and changed to graphite powder and had better success .I have 200 new PPU 30-30 cases .The federals were just some extras for testing . Any will keep at it Thanks for the information .

[bob208]

I always knew .32-40 was almost imposable to get . I have been making them out of .30-30. with all this talk of .25-35 I have been checking and stuff is just as hard to get. rcbs dropped the best mold. brass I can make. I did get the jump on .32 Winchester spl. got a bunch of brass and a good rcbs 170 gr. fn mold. that mold will work for the .32-40. as long as they make .30-30 I will be ok.

[BigEyeBob]

I always knew .32-40 was almost imposable to get . I have been making them out of .30-30. with all this talk of .25-35 I have been checking and stuff is just as hard to get. rcbs dropped the best mold. brass I can make. I did get the jump on .32 Winchester spl. got a bunch of brass and a good rcbs 170 gr. fn mold. that mold will work for the .32-40. as long as they make .30-30 I will be ok.

Yes ,some of the shops here in Oz have them listed but noted "out of stock no back order" the only other options are the aftermarket brass producers , Bertram Brass here in Oz might have some . 32-20 is becoming scarce here as well ,but I picked up some Remington and Starline a while back.