2 balls

[big boar]

Using a 50 cal has anyone used a double ball load? A 50 cal ball weighs 175gr, so a double is 350grs and that is a light load for a slug. I know the patched ball has more resistance but it shouldn't be that significant as it is, after all, just a patch. I've tried it and the results were VERY impressive. The 2 balls printed about 2" apart at 50 yards. I'll have to see how they group at 75 and also test in wet phoneooks for penetration. I used a lighter powder charge and my notes are at work so I don't have that info right now. I wanted to try this for hunting during our BP season and figured it would provide an advantage if I was doing a push through the bush.

[fishhawk]

yes i have used double ball loads works fine in my guns but be aware some game departments consider double ball loads as useing "buckshot" and ileagle for deer hunting. steve k

[Digital Dan]

Big Boar, keep you apples and oranges separate. RB guns will shoot the double ball but there is a question about how much pressure develops. You might be ok doing this but maybe not and it depends on the nature of your ignition system design. Drum and nipple arrangements are not all that strong, nor is a conventional bolster.

[curator]

Good advise from Fishawk and digital Dan. However, Original Hawken "Plains" rifles were designed to be able to shoot double ball loads. Early plainsmen called this being "loaded for (real) bear". As you point out the two .50 balls weigh a bit less than a "Maxi-ball", so why not? Be sure your breeching can handle the increased pressures. This loads would not be safe in a simple drum and nipple percussion rifle. A properly made patent breech should be OK with it.

I too have fired double balls in my .52 caliber Hawken replica using 90 grains of FFg Goex with good effect. As you point out both balls usually impact within a few inches of each other out to 50 yards. At 100 yards this usually expands to about 6 inches. Surprisingly, accuracy is pretty good. I have never shot anything but targets with this load as any multiple ball load (even two!) is considered a shotgun and must be 20 gauge or larger in Florida (where I live) and many other States as well.

[Digital Dan]

I have not fiddled with this in BP arms...have with the newer passing fads claiming a bore of .429 and fueled by a concoction that is alleged to not smoke much...paper patched too. It is a wickedly effective load for hogs inside of about 50 yards. I have no conceptual reservations about doing what is put forth, just concerns that some may not recognize that all real rifles as vetted by King George were not created equal...so far as their pressure limits are concerned.

To the best of my knowledge there are essentially 3 plateaus of pressure tolerance in guns loaded from the front end. In descending order of strength as I understand it: 1) Underhammer/sidehammers with the nipple threaded in the barrel directly. Such are common in the Mowry squirrel and buggy rifles and are the standard for large bore slug guns which digest enormous loads of powder and huge bullets. 2) Patent Breech systems and 3) drum and nipple. I look at flintlocks and think maybe they are not bound by such concerns since they have none of above and are vented...but I would not swear to lack of consequence to such endeavor in the King's Court.

I do suspect the recoil impulse in the average .45-.50 caliber would become rather nasty before other issues arose. The litmus referenced above by the Curator about Hawkens and similar guns set up for conicals is no doubt valid. If all else is equal, the results will also be equal too, over and over again. Yogi Berra didn't say that but wishes he did. To be clear, I was referring to this practice in guns intended for round balls.

Therefore, if one must dabble as a pioneer in ballistic science, it is best to do your homework and be responsible for the results of incomplete studies.

[Mumblypeg]

I have a TC Seneca in .45 cal that shoots round balls a little better that maxie balls so I tried two round balls like that. Drives them side by side at 50 yards.

[freedom475]

I have an old Lyman Black Powder manual that shows high-speed photo's of the two-ball load being fired. The balls pictured in flight a few feet from the barrel show some real serious deformation.

The balls have formed to one another in the barrel and look like muchroom caps. The two balls are begining to seperate.

If I can find it I'll post a picture of the picture.

This is the same book that has the guys testing loads for elephant using 58cal hawkens and something like 250plus grains of powder behind huge bullets....this being said I can't believe that dangerous pressures can be reached that are enough to blow a barrel just because you use two or even three balls with good guns and normal powder charges. You CAN break stocks pretty easy messing with big charges and big bullets...so be careful and USE you head.:Fire:

[Rattus58]

Right... that was fadala's first Lyman manual I think and the balls are looking like an egg that split in two.... with rear side of the first ball somewhat flattened and front side of the second ball is flattened.

A single load with two balls will hardly ever cause problems unless you are over charged to begin with with. Two heavy conicals on the other hand can at the least split your stock. In fact, in the older caplocks with wood stocks, a good 400 plus conical can do that all by itself with a load as little as 80 grains of pyrodex or goex.

Aloha... :cool:

[big boar]

Thanks for all the replys, I'm glad that others have tried this. It's intersting that the balls were deformed that much. I'm planning on trying penetration tests in wet phonebooks to verify the performance before I go hunting. I know It's not a true meduim but it does give some information about the bullets behaviour. I tried the penetration tests using shotgun slugs and was surprised at how poorly they performed compared to the cast slugs from my 450 Marlin. More testing, more fun.BB

[Digital Dan]

http://www.lrml.org/technical/gunsmithing/breechplug.htm

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(nxuraj45ba0pwtyqhx23xn45))/imgPart/plug-oh-13_0.jpg

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(itoxrtem2id2njrdde2eu4yk))/imgPart/plug-pat-15-5_0.jpg

The barrel is not the issue really, it's the design of the ignition architecture. When you add balls you are, from an internal ballistics perspective, increasing sectional density of the projectile. The increase in pressure is probably not directly proportional, but rather geometric. It doubles weight and bearing surface. It is probably safe in some arms, and not it others. I'd not suggest it at all with the drum and nipple type systems. The photos above represent the difference I speak of, the link discusses the issue.

[John Taylor]

OK I got to confess. Many years ago at stake shoots I sometimes would drop as many as 5 balls down the barrel of my 54. The powder charge was around 60 and recoil did go up a bit but was not noticed during the heat of competition. First shot was always loaded correct with a patched round ball while there was a chance that some one might be watching. When your trying to cut a 4X4 in half, more holes is better so a hand full of balls with no patch really makes short work of it. This was a T/C Hawkin 50 that had been re barreled with an Orian 54 barrel, 15/16" across the flats, made of 12L14 steel. It was always a good shooting combination and I won more than a few shoots with it. It would still pick off poker chips at 50 yards when I had to sell it to pay bills.

[shotman]

do you patch both or all? looks like if you dont they would roll out shotman