Lets discuss the topic of Roll Crimping lots to here need to get it all in one place. [Archive]

W.R.Buchanan

12-09-2018, 03:44 PM

I posted this on my "Old A5" thread but it needs it's own thread as there is more than a little to be learned on this subject.

OK guys: Since I am waiting for my gun to reappear I decided I would load some of my new STI Slugs.

I went down the roll crimping rat hole today and reloaded 5 once fired Federal Slug Hulls that were previously Roll Crimped. I did one Fiocchi hull last night but it kind of sucked so I used some Feds I had collected for today's excursion.

I used the BPI 12 ga. Roll Crimper that I have had sitting in the box for several years now. I did the set up on my Milling machine simply because I could control the speed down to zero RPM's if necessary. I started at 150 RPM's and it worked good so I left it there.

I did the first operations of the loading on my Pacific DL266. That was depriming/sizing, re-priming and dropping powder., then to seat the STI Slug/Sabot combo I used a wad guide ( A MEC I think)I had in my Lee Loader Kit with my little Sinclair Arbor Press to shove the whole mess thru the mouth of the hull. No way was it going in without a wad guide. I had to use a .40 S&W case as a spacer to get the slug past the the fingers on the wad guide.

Then back to the press to seat the wad and apply 40-50 lbs of pressure on it.

Then over to the mill for the Roll Crimp.

Once I figured out how to hold onto the hull and lining it up with the crimp tool, I just started the spindle and started running it down. The stop was high so I keep lowering it until the crimp looked complete.

I went back to the first one on the left and gave it a little more after I was done with the other 4 all ended up at 2-5/16" +/-.01-.15. They all have a decent taper on them so they should feed smoothly in the A5.

One thing I did that just seemed appropriate was to wipe some Vaseline on the inside of the crimp tool. It worked and whereas the first one didn't look perfect the other 4 did and I am reasonably happy with the outcome. But since I have no idea what I am doing I will defer to you's guys for constructive criticism.

See pics below.

So what do you think?

Randy

W.R.Buchanan

12-09-2018, 04:00 PM

Also lets look at Rotary Roll crimping versus the MEC Slugger way which is a Strait Line push using three steps.

On the other thread Capt Morgan showed the difference between Roll Crimps done with a flat pin which produces a flat topped crimp roll as opposed to a curved section in the die that rolls the plastic over producing a radiused front to the hull. Maybe we can get him to post that pic on this thread?

Obviously the curved style is what the Ammo Mfg's use.

Here's pics of a factory loaded Federal Slug (Blue) and one of the ones I did on a previously roll crimped hull.

Could you's guys share your techniques for doing this operation, so we all can learn.

I also need to know about trimming previously Fold Crimped hulls so they Roll Crimp cleanly. How much do you trim off? Lyman says 1/8-1/4"? And is that tool that Ranch Dog got how and why this is done?

I've got thousands of OF AA and STS hulls so I'm not too keen on buying new hulls for this project.

Randy.

toallmy

12-09-2018, 04:01 PM

You are way more precise than I am , but good call on the little dab of conditioner on the role crimper to get it going smoothly . I use a roll crimper for short shot shells mostly , and I fold my slug loads . I am not confident enough in my role crimping to trust that the slug will unfold it without pressure difference in my loads , and that wouldn't help my meager groups . My goal in life is to keep a 4 in 100 yard group with home made slugs that I enjoy shooting . Let us know how they shoot .

toallmy

12-09-2018, 04:05 PM

They shore look good !

gpidaho

12-09-2018, 04:16 PM

Randy: I believe that the milling machine is a good idea, that 150RPM has to help. We use a similar process. Seating the wad, I use the wad tube that comes with the old Lee Loaders. I now own several different roll crimping tools as I've mentioned in the other threads. With the exception of the Russian built hand crank tool I've been spinning the tools much to fast I believe. This makes a nice crimp but pretty much destroys the hull unless it's trimmed back to 2 1/2 or 2 1/4" and loaded once more. I have a Mec Super Sizer on the way and will be using it as a clamp to hold the hulls. Also, I have the old Mikita 9.6 volt battery drill that will spin pretty slowly in the low speed mode. My Craftsman bench top drill press just can not be set to turn at anywhere close to slow enough and I'm tired of just getting two loads out of new hulls from BPI. And Yes, I believe those crimps look pretty good. Gp

W.R.Buchanan

12-09-2018, 05:02 PM

Gp: The Craftsman Drill Presses have an accessory you need to keep an eye out for. It is an Idler assembly that fits into the top of the vertical column. The only difference between a bench model and floor model is the length of the column. It has another set of pulleys and the shaft is mounted off center so it will tension the front belt. Then the motor is used to tension the rear belt and the result is 120 rpms. I leave mine set up that way so I can run countersinks on it.

Slow speeds seem to be part of the puzzle here. Also doing it on a Drill Press as opposed to a hand held drill motor keeps the crimp even side to side. The one I did with my drill motor looked like ship.

I think you might try some Vaseline on the tool and lighter pressure on the quill as you form the crimp. That way the higher speed wouldn't overheat the plastic as much.

Randy

Ranch Dog

12-09-2018, 05:24 PM

I think what also needs to be considered is not only how uniform the crimps are, but are the hulls usable after the shot? Please show us some before and after pictures.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/Slugs/images/BPI_roll_crimper.jpg

My drill spec says the minimum speed is 600 RPM, but that might be to support a drill bit. I'm able to operate it extremely slow, I put a mark on the back of the crimper to watch, and I would say it does about 200 - 250 RPM at the most. I used the STI roller, and they looked good, but it is still tough to make them uniform to an exact overall length, hull to hull. This is the point where I was going to get the HF drill press. When I shot the ammo I loaded, the hulls looked exactly like those on the right. I had to toss them. So pictures please.

I even thought about trying one of the imported rollers on ebay.

I pulled my Slugger out of the box, and the dies were all loose as well as the cam that actuates the first crimp die, so I need to talk to MEC about the basic setup before I can go forward as there isn't anything in the box that included that information. The powder bottle was busted as well. It will be Tuesday before I can make that call. Once in operation, I will include pictures of the before and after as well.

Hogtamer

12-09-2018, 06:15 PM

If you crimped the red hull on the right I find no fault with it....none! A couple of things I discovered roll crimping (I use the precision reloading tool tha chucks in drill press): Any wad that has give when pressure applied does not generally produce a perfect crimp; even if you are perfectly plumb when crimping your wad may not be perfectly plumb in the hull. Felt, cork, even shotcup wads can tilt ever so slightly and produce an uneven crimp. I believe you will find factory roll crimps are over stiff wad columns. Thicker hulls at the rim produce better roll crimps as well. A fired hull is skivved somewhat by the projectile and hot gas so you are left with with an imperfect surface to start with. I discovered from pressure tested roll crimp loads that my crimp, as perfect as they may have looked were inconsistent as to pressure and velocity. i got better the more I loaded but still not perfectly consistent even though powder was electronically weighed and slugs were within several grains of each other. That's why when possible I fold crimp everything. Much easier to get very consistent results. In short we shotgunners start with relatively imprecise components (compared to metallic sized within a thousandth or two. Weigh a random 10 hulls of the same lot and consider where the difference might be. So, as I said in another thread, don't let the perfect become the
enemy of the good. Your crimps look good, very good. As a machinist I know you're looking for perfection and I'm glad you folks are out there, it makes us all better. But that steel you're ringing and those hogs I'm rolling never know the difference. Shoot 'em and enjoy every shot!

trapper9260

12-09-2018, 06:27 PM

I will have to try this that was stated .Wipe some Vaseline on the inside of the crimp tool. See if that will help me also.

toallmy

12-09-2018, 06:36 PM

I have a few old hulls I warm up my roll crimper on before actually starting on my loaded shells with a dab of lube to get started , it seems to help get the first couple right than everything goes smoothly . Most of the time anyway ......

longbow

12-09-2018, 07:33 PM

I made my roll crimper from an old automotive universal joint cup and a clevis pin. Annealed the cup and drill 3/8" hole through for the stem of the clevis pin. Turned the head of the clevis pin to suit the inside diameter of the roll crimp. Machined the cup to a taper then drilled and tapped 6 holes around for pins which were made from 10-24 threaded rod cut off and the thread turned off at the end where the crimp would form and used a chainsaw file to make a "spool" cut t to help roll the plastic hull mouth.

I am embarrassed to post pics because like many of my tools, it was cobbled together out of what I had on hand but unfortunately worked so now it remains as is.

Embarrassing or not, I'll try to get some decent pics to post. While it looks crude, it works quite well and is a 6 pin crimper. I tried it with 3 pins but like 6 pins better.

I use my lathe for roll crimping and am probably running the roll crimper at too high an RPM but it works pretty well. I can roll crimp previously fold crimped hulls... usually without too much difficulty.

I also lube regularly but I just use 30 wt. oil ~ a drop in the roll crimper every few hulls seems to keep things nice. I haven't really figured out why it works because the friction and forming heats the plastic to get it to roll so lubing should reduce friction so heating but maybe it is a fine balance of pressure to form the crimp and some friction generated heat. Maybe without lube there is too much friction at the required pressure?

I hold the hulls by hand while crimping on the lathe using the tailstock quill to push the hulls into the roll crimper. I'll make a simple hull vice and try using a hand drill which I have not done before.

I'll try to have some pics of roll crimper and hulls for my next post.

Longbow

gpidaho

12-09-2018, 07:53 PM

Ranch Dog: You might get luckier than I did but I bought and returned two of the Harbor Freight bench drill presses. Now they could fairly be called commercial egg beaters but with the run-out on the chuck was so bad in the examples I had they could hardly be called or used as a drill press. Wish I'd have stepped up another step or two past my Craftsman also but at least it doesn't make an oval 7/16th hole using a quarter inch bit. Gp

Rattlesnake Charlie

12-09-2018, 08:43 PM

gpidaho

12-09-2018, 08:59 PM

Charlie: Seems there is a pretty steep price climb from the bottom to some of the better presses. Harbor Freight and Ryodi seem to be the exact same press and the Craftsman like mine is very close to the same. They likely come out of the same factory. (China) If one only needs to do a few and imprecise chores they are inexpensive enough but I recommend you get a better tool if you can justify the price.Gp

W.R.Buchanan

12-09-2018, 11:04 PM

Guys; the Craftsman Drill Press I have was made in the 1950's By Delta I think. You would likely find one in a garage sale. Don't go over about $50-75. They are excellent machines and parts are still available thru Sears.

HT: My problem is that I don't know what is right ??? I suspect that my crimps are decent only because they look good and they are consistent, but as far as "knowing?" Not there yet.

I like to "Understand" all I know about a subject before I start Pontificating. After I fully understand then I can tell others how to ______ (insert question) ,,, do it.

I have found that if you truly understand something, you should be able to explain it to others in simple language that anyone can understand. First sign of BS is when the guy inserts a .50 word into a sentence making it totally unintelligible. IE: He is FOS!

You can see it on TV every night, just watch CNN or MSNBC.

Seen it a thousand times, now it's a rule I follow judiciously. I also try to be "not FOS" as much as possible.

My whole point in posting this thread is to bring out the combined knowledge here at Cast Boolits and establish a process whereby we can get repeatable results on our ammunition. People have been doing this process for over 100 years, you'd think there would be some definitive source for instructions.

I got the Lyman Shotgun Manual. Other than the tons of actual load data it is almost useless. The actual Technical information is sadly missing.

I got the BPI Slug Loading Manual and it has alot more technical information but states clearly that a previously Fold Crimped hull shouldn't be Roll Crimped. This is a problem for me as all of the AA hulls I have (@2500) were fold crimped. The only hulls I have that were previously Roll Crimped were ones I picked up last trip to Front Sight where everybody is supposed to use fresh ammo not reloads. I've already loaded most of them. I don't have any New hulls and doubt I'll be getting that many if any at all. The word "Reloading," kind of implies reusing existing hulls.

I know this can be done, I just have to figure out how to do it. If I'm already there then fine, now I jsut ahe to understand what I did. This shouldn't be that hard.

As it sits right now I have 3 viable projectiles that I can shoot from my shotguns. I am loading .662 balls, Lyman Sabot Slugs, and the new STI Sabot Slug. Both the Pumpkin Balls and the Lyman Sabot use a fold crimp. I can do that nearly perfect every time.

The Lyman Slug Mould I got was garbage, and I might get a Lee mould so I can have a Foster Type slug to shoot at steel targets. That and the STI slug need Roll Crimps so that is why I am pursuing this subject.

The Lyman Sabot and the STI will be used in the Rifled Barrel of the A5 and should work great. The others will go in the A5 smooth bore barrel and M500's and I don't expect much after 50-60 yards out of them, but the trade off is being able to run bird buck and slugs thru the same barrel..

So if anyone else has got any other secret information on Roll Crimping this would be a good time to put it out there.

Randy

larryweingarten99

12-09-2018, 11:26 PM

longbow

12-10-2018, 12:24 AM

Okay then here's my roll crimper and a crimped hull... empty but crimped:

Roll crimper:

231813

yes, it is as crude as it looks! The roll crimper is sitting on a short piece of 12 ga. barrel if you are wondering about the very large stem.

Uncrimped Federal field hull:

231814

You can see this hull has been fold crimped and not reconditioned. You may not be able to see that it was roll crimped once as well and the roll crimper twisted the hull slightly due to not quite enough clearance for the thicker Federal hulls. It worked fine for my Fiocchi hulls but not so well for Federal hulls until I increased internal clearance. So this is the second time roll crimping after a once fired fold crimped hull was reloaded and roll crimped.

Same hull after crimping:

231815

You should be able to see the original fold and some twist here but it rolled over fine and would be a good crimp if the hull had a payload. The previous twisted crimp may not make for the most consistent opening but they seem to work fine and now open better after the roll crimper was modified.

I put a drop of 30 wt. oil in the crimper before running the hull in. That helps bunches. I'd guess any sort of lube would work, maybe even dish soap or wax.

It works for me anyway.

Something you might try if your roll crimps are a little "square" as Cap'n Morgan pointed out and that is to put some lapping compound on the hall mouth then crimp a few hulls. The lapping compound will cut a fairly nice radius inside on the pins. If you can remove the pins I'd suggest using a chainsaw file to put an appropriate size radius on them then reinstall. Of course if it doesn't work you may have ruined an expensive roll crimper.

Longbow

tomme boy

12-10-2018, 02:41 AM

I have never used a roll crimp. But I will ask you guys have you ran any of your loads over the chrono to see what happened to your velocity after the hull has been loaded more than 2x's???

I have always used a star crimp. I am starting to gather stuff to get back into loading slugs again. I want to venture into the roll crimp. I ask the above ? because when I was shooting the Lymann sabot I never loaded the shells more than 1 time. Well they were range pick ups so they were 2x fired. If I tried to load them again they would loose about 200fps or more. The crimp just would not hold for a good start. I would get wild vel spreads.

I think the pic Cap Morgon posted where it rolled the edge over without the pin would be best but where would you get a crimper like that?

Cap'n Morgan

12-10-2018, 04:42 AM

https://i.imgur.com/VVPV0dm.jpg

On popular demand, here's the pic of the roll crimping process :p

I often use a handheld power drill to crimp my slugs and I found that rotary speed is not important as long as it's not too high which will heat the hull fast. The oldtimers roll crimping tools only took a couple of turns to finish the crimp and the "Slugger" doesn't rotate at all. It should be noted that running the crimp and hull "hot" not necessarily is a bad thing as the crimp will be stronger when the semi-molten plastic in the rim takes on a new "memory". I only use range pick-ups and never reload the same hull twice.

One thing, though, I trim all my hulls before crimping to remove most traces of skivering and star crimp - like Tomme Boy points out, a consistent crimp is very important to produce consistent velocity. I never found the reduced hull length to have any influence on the precision due to the longer free-flight in the chamber - the skivered part of the hull will not give support to the slug anyway and, as a bonus, my Beretta will hold seven of the 2-1/2" slugs.

I make my own roll crimpers as some slugs needs more room in the crimp tool for the slug nose, but they are all more or less based on this design:
https://i.imgur.com/whXN6ca.jpg
And can be found here:
http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_105_103_153_167&products_id=1389

The crimper has a M6 thread in the rear and can be mounted using a bolt and a lock nut

https://i.imgur.com/n6mHry4.jpg

Ranch Dog

12-10-2018, 07:40 AM

So, the HF drill press is off the table then, and it is all up to the Slugger.

What bugs me about the using a drill is the inability to measure force or length. When I started with the Lightfield factory 3" slugs with my Marlin 512, they would not fit in the magazine. I contacted Lightfield, and they asked if I had a roll crimper and drill press. I had a Jet drill press that I used in my mold business and the BPI roll crimper though I had not used it. They offered some very specific instructions for use for reheating the crimp and reducing the hull length to fit the magazine along with the caveat that pressure would increase. The jet could operate at 150 RPM, so I set it up where I could careful reduce the length of the hull .015". I did this to three rounds. With the first two shots, I could tell the recoil was significantly more than what it had been; the third shot sheared the mount screws off the Weaver base. So yeah, using a drill for the roll bugs the hell out of me.

gpidaho is right, after the Jet, considering the HF DP would be a tough pill to swallow. I've balked twice and bought the Slugger. During all this, I had a friend start a business, and he was struggling over being able to purchase a good drill press, so I gave him the Jet. Working with those slugs was the first time I had used it in five-years, and I was tired of keeping it clean and rust free.

Ranch Dog

12-10-2018, 08:25 AM

Then back to the press to seat the wad and apply 40-50 lbs of pressure on it.
While I wait for some instructions on the crimp die setup from MEC, I've been working with the other side of the press. The instructions I do have with the Slugger say not to use more than 20 lbs with any wad or sabot. That mirrors the instructions in my Deluxe Lee Loader Kit which states 18 to 20 lbs. Funny thing about the MEC is that the scale on the force indicator starts at 30, but the indicator must move a bit to get there. I'm using clear hulls and what I saw at 30 lbs is that the STI does start to compress, enough to notice with the eye or by comparison with another uncompressed hull in a clear hull. So I have applied only enough pressure to start to move the force indicator.

The Slugger instructions favor the skived hulls over non-skived. I will be in a meeting most of the day; I hope I can get in a call to MEC about the setup of the crimp dies. I had hoped to shoot tomorrow as my hogs are still waiting.

Petander

12-10-2018, 10:51 AM

http://i65.tinypic.com/mrcx7q.jpg

Hogtamer

12-10-2018, 10:55 AM

Randy, I think one of the main factors with roll crimping is thickness of the hull wall. Hulls vary from .027 to .030 though the information is hard to find. Skivved hull allow for an easier tight fold crimp but I think that thinning on the end is detrimental to a good rool crimp. I notice paper hulls are .035 wall thickness and are the easiest of all to roll. These old winchester hulls have been rolled and fired at least twice with my hot Zinc slug load and show no signs of wear. The cheap cheddite and federals all look like the right pic of RD's BPI roll crimped load in a previous post and are of the thin wall skivved variety. I use the Precision reloading tool on all, so the only obvious difference is the thickness of the hull walls.

Hogtamer

12-10-2018, 10:57 AM

copdills

12-10-2018, 11:12 AM

good looking crimp Longbow

Cap'n Morgan

12-10-2018, 11:16 AM

On bench press drills, the depth of the crimp can often be adjusted. I never use collapsible wads and just crimp until I feel resistance, but if non-solid wads are used, the depth of the crimp (or total length) is very important as deeper seating of the payload will increase pressure - sometimes dramatically so with the faster burning powders.

W.R.Buchanan

12-10-2018, 02:23 PM

MY Pacific DL266's wad pressure gauge starts at 30 but it takes almost no effort to go to 40 or 50. I have used mostly Claybuster WAA12 clones, and the stroke is set for them. I have to watch the pressure gauge to make sure I don't collapse on longer wad/payloads. Squished one and had to take it apart and waste the hull. No biggie but better if you don't do it in the first place.

All of the rotary Crimp tools I am seeing are built the same way with the exception of how many bumps they have. The BPI I have has 1, I heard they have a new one that has 2, Capt Morgans has 3, I have seen 4 somewhere, the Lyman and Longbows have 6 and most of the crank styles have none. So I guess the jury is out on that feature.

The MEC Slugger has 3 progressive dies and no rotation. I would expect that Federal and Winchester have dies like that incorporated into the Slug Loading Machine, as I don't see the need for rotating the tool if you can get good crimps out of not rotation the tool. If they do it in a progressive manner then it is just 2-3 more stations on the machine and since it is a progressive machine every stroke produces a loaded round.

Morgan's pics tell alot of the story. the BPI Roller uses a Roll Pin as the bump. It is strait thus the flat top edge on my crimps. Longbow had the good sense to make his pins with a radius cut into them and his tool rolls a radius on the hull. This way seems like it would also be a much smoother running operation than having to go around square corners.

See I told you there was alot to know here.

Randy

gpidaho

12-10-2018, 02:49 PM

trapper9260

12-10-2018, 03:25 PM

May I ask how much of the I call the tail of the hull to be crimp do you keep to roll it to the lenght you want.Like you want a 2 3/4" hull what should you have the total lenght ?

toallmy

12-10-2018, 03:26 PM

I'm loving this thread , keep going gentlemen . I thought I was the only person in the world that liked to roll crimp a hull .

toallmy

12-10-2018, 03:40 PM

trapper9260

12-10-2018, 04:25 PM

Around a half inch of the hull goes in a standard fold crimp so a 2 3/4 hull is around 2 1/4 loaded . If you want to load the same stack height of components with a roll crimp you need to remove around a 1/4 inch of the 2 3/4 hull so the load will fit nicely , and usually that takes care of the the thinner part of the hull . But honestly you just use some scrap hulls to get the feel of the amount to trim off .

Thank you that will help alot I was not sure but that is about what I was doing is take off about 1/4" of the hull.For what you stated help alot on this for the different ga's I load for.

toallmy

12-10-2018, 04:55 PM

Thank you that will help alot I was not sure but that is about what I was doing is take off about 1/4" of the hull.For what you stated help alot on this for the different ga's I load for.

What are you making shorter a 10 gage ?

W.R.Buchanan

12-10-2018, 07:38 PM

Randy: I think it would be good to take Scott up on his offer to hook you up with a Lyman tool. The one he sent me was a big improvement over the one pin model sold buy BPI. As I've said I also picked up the two pin model, BPI's improved version, and it too is a step up but I'm really liking the Lyman six pin version. Now, just to slow the spin rate way down. Gp

Already did. Thanks.

I also want to know how well the Crank Type Roll Crimpers work. Has anyone got one that can talk about it. Seems like they should work as they were the normal way of crimping shot shells for along time.

gpidaho

12-10-2018, 08:40 PM

Yes Randy, I have the Russian roll crimpers. (Told you I was a gadget lover) The hand crank style. I really like it, it makes a very good looking crimp. One thing I don't care for is that to me, it should be mounted vertical to keep the shot from spilling when loading shot and not slugs or round balls. This can be done but it feels awkward to me and the clamp doesn't lock the tool down tight enough to suit me. Still in all, I believe it to be well worth the asking price. Gp

W.R.Buchanan

12-10-2018, 10:09 PM

GP: I thought the same thing about the horizontal mounting. I figured someone would clamp it to something a vertical and get around that. I guess it is easier to crank like that.

But you say it makes a decent crimp so it starts to become more obvious that between one of these tools and a MEC Slugger that rotation speed or none at all, are interchangeable.

I will try slower speeds on the mill and see what happens.

Randy

Ranch Dog

12-11-2018, 12:23 AM

...then to seat the STI Slug/Sabot combo I used a wad guide ( A MEC I think)I had in my Lee Loader Kit with my little Sinclair Arbor Press to shove the whole mess thru the mouth of the hull. No way was it going in without a wad guide. I had to use a .40 S&W case as a spacer to get the slug past the the fingers on the wad guide.

I have found the BPI Spin Doc (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Spin-Doctor-for-large-bore-10ga-to-20ga/productinfo/SPINDOC/) useful for ironing out both the star and roll crimps, but only in conjuction with the Lee Load-All sizing ring (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Lee-Load-All-II-Sizer-L-A-12ga/productinfo/LEE90097/). I came up with using the sizing ring as it was laying on the bench next to me, without it the Doc, didn't do a thing. I actually think the Spin Doc could be heated with a light flame from a propane torch and be just as effective.

I hold the top of the sizing ring slightly above the mouth of the hull and bring the Spin Doc down into the hull.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/BPI/images/spin_doc_01.jpg

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/BPI/images/spin_doc_02.jpg

Roll crimps from the Lightfields are ironed completely out.

longbow

12-11-2018, 01:19 AM

On the number of pins... when I switched to the Federal field hulls and had trouble with roll crimps I took 3 pins out of my roll crimper leaving 3 pins in. Made no difference I could tell.

I checked hull thickness and concluded I needed a bit more internal clearance so turned the inner piece down a little then put all 6 pins back and had good roll crimps again.

My gut feeling is 3 pins minimum because 3 points make a plane... keeps the roll crimper sitting square on the mouth of the hull.

Just my thought.

Longbow

tomme boy

12-11-2018, 02:46 AM

elvas

12-11-2018, 06:58 AM

For a crimp like this:
http://www.gameandfishmag.com/editorial/are-you-using-the-right-slug-for-your-shotgun/245179#
You have to get a crimper like this:
http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_105_103_153_168&products_id=306

Ranch Dog

12-11-2018, 08:44 AM

Since no one has answered the ? I asked earlier I will attempt to ask it another way.

How does the roll crimp effect the load pressures after the hull has been loaded a couple times? Have you seen the pressures stay the same or have they dropped or raised? Or did accuracy suffer from loading the hulls more than say 2 times?

Kind of in the same boat, before any more money is spent on roll crimp tools, I want to see hulls that have been shot along with the tools that rolled them. I've asked for the same in several topics; heck, please include your targets as well as it is all connected. Lot's of guys taking pictures of pretty ammo, but I've learned that doesn't mean a thing. I good reflection on performance down range is the spent hull that shot it; star folded or rolled. In the picture, the Lightfield delivered a 1.5 MOA group at 100-yards, the BPI could not leave them all on the target backboard. Show us what you shot.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/Slugs/images/BPI_roll_crimper.jpg

I make my own roll crimpers as some slugs needs more room in the crimp tool for the slug nose, but they are all more or less based on this design:
https://i.imgur.com/whXN6ca.jpg
And can be found here:
http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_105_103_153_167&products_id=1389
Unfortunately, that roller is out of stock.

http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_105_103_153_168&products_id=306
Same as above, out of stock.

Ranch Dog

12-11-2018, 09:06 AM

This roller is in stock. Don't know how many pins it uses on the groove design. I would ask for a drawing something before I bought another.

Precision Reloading's 12 Gauge Roll Crimper (https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!l=MM&i=RC12)

https://www.precisionreloading.com/img/products/MM/PR_Roll_Crimper2.jpg

It does say that 300 rpm is what is needed.

https://www.precisionreloading.com/docs/products/MM~RC12.pdf

I see that Precision Reloading sells they STI Sabot Roller. In the description they state "200-400 rpm", that sounds like 300 rpm to me.

Hmmm. I do like the looks of the Precision Reloading Roll Crimp and Jaws (https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!l=MM&i=RCJB12) better than the BPI tool I have.

https://www.precisionreloading.com/img/products/MM/Roll_Crimping_Holder.jpg

I've found that the BPI tool puts too much pressure on the hull, even fully adjusted out, that causing the mouth of an empty hull to go from round to oval. Sure, you have a stack of components that make it round again but, over torque bugs the heck out of me and its got to be still translated up through the hull. I will get a picture of this. I like the adjustable tension the PR Holder.

Ranch Dog

12-11-2018, 09:11 AM

dsh1106

12-11-2018, 09:14 AM

Already did. Thanks.

I also want to know how well the Crank Type Roll Crimpers work. Has anyone got one that can talk about it. Seems like they should work as they were the normal way of crimping shot shells for along time.

Randy

I'll post up a couple of pictures of the Ideal hand roll crimper and what the crimps look like.

The large roll crimping head I sent you a picture of is from an Ideal "STAR" hand roll crimper. All of the late model Lyman / Ideal roll crimping heads look like the pictures I sent you, the early models used to roll crimp paper shells had actual pins in them like the BPI roll crimp head. I believe I have one of the early model roll crimp head in 10 gauge, I'll snap a picture of that as well.

I roll crimped a couple of empty hulls, this hand crank roll cripmer works well doing round ball and slugs, obviously if you were to try this with a shot shell you would need a tight fitting overshot card. I've mentioned before, any RPM over 100-150 IMHO is way to fast, the hulls shown were done a ~ 60 rpm with moderate force.

This roll crimp head has four "pins" the newer style has six "pins"
The sample hulls I roll crimped are federals and are ~.023/.024 wall thickness, I did try some Remington "Gun Club" hulls but they are about .033/.034 wall thickness and need a little more speed and force than I could do with hand crank.

You'll notice in the 2nd to the last pic, there is a center plug in the crimp head, this was the old "pin" style for the paper hulls, this center plug is actually spring loaded to push against an overshot card to hold it in place. This spring is heavy duty, somewhere is the range of 120-150 # load.

Not sure why the pictures are rotated

BTW - Your package is on its way.

Scott

Ranch Dog

12-11-2018, 10:06 AM

Wow, Scot and now Randy, that is a nice roller. I like the support that it is giving the hull!

Treeman

12-11-2018, 11:05 AM

bikerbeans

12-11-2018, 01:07 PM

.... The only advantage I can see to a roll crimp would be load identification. Enlighten me.

I think you answered your question.

BB

megasupermagnum

12-11-2018, 01:19 PM

A question-Why go to all the trouble of purchasing/building roll crimpers? I realize that a roll crimp can allow slightly more usable hull space but I cannot think of anything Iwant to load in 12 gauge that I have been unable to fit under a fold crimp......which is so much quicker and easier to form. The only advantage I can see to a roll crimp would be load identification. Enlighten me.

A roll crimp adjusts to the load, not the other way around. No setup, no fussing, just crimp. I find it so much easier than a fold crimp, and only slower if I'm loading more than a box at a time. I think Tom Armbrust has done more pressure testing with roll crimps than anyone, he would be the one to ask how multiple firings effects them. Another good attribute of a roll crimp is that it is not all that important the depth. While the difference between a fold crimp .050" deep and .075" deep can change the chamber pressures thousands of PSI. You don't get that with a roll crimp.

elvas

12-11-2018, 03:56 PM

Some simple but effective crimp bases:
http://www.siarm.com/index.php?cPath=2_105_103_156
Some manual roll crimping tools:
http://www.siarm.com/index.php?cPath=2_105_19

W.R.Buchanan

12-11-2018, 11:02 PM

Yes I just bet I can make one of those hull vises, maybe a few more. Hate to steal the idea but it is just too easy and is real close to what I was thinking of anyway. Mine will "Look" better. Maybe a new product for BPM?

Yes,,, We are figuring this process out, and I think we are really close to a complete understanding. I want to talk to the MEC guys at the SHOT Show next month and learn about their die crimping system.

The A5 is on it's way back and I can't wait to shoot some of these slugs,,, maybe this coming weekend.

It is an enjoyable pursuit.

Randy

gpidaho

12-11-2018, 11:14 PM

Randy: Yes, this whole shotgun pursuit is fun stuff. I've had more fun here in these threads than any of the others here a Boolits. We don't seem to have the Huge egos here to contend with like some of the other subjects. Thanks to all here for keeping these threads helpful and friendly. Gp

Treeman

12-12-2018, 01:16 AM

Thanks for the answers. I never realy considered that the roll crimp allows one to compensate for wad stack variables in the crimp. For my own purposes, since I have wad combos that work in a slug load that is accurate with a fold crimp, I don't need to move on to roll crimping......but a big thank you to all who keep experimenting and increasing the knowledge pool.

TonyfromItaly

12-12-2018, 02:23 AM

Hello, there are special spools designed specifically for roll crimping slugs. Here is where i get them from. http://www.omv.it/bobine-orlatrici-incisori-stellari/

the one you need is called cal 12 BP

trapper9260

12-12-2018, 07:30 AM

What I found for roll crimp is that when I made up my own short 12ga rounds that it was easyer to roll crimp them then to fold them.I came up with 2" rounds for 12 with 1/2oz load.

gpidaho

12-12-2018, 07:40 AM

I agree trapper. BPI has a four page pamphlet "Loading Shortened Hulls" All but just a few of the loads are roll crimped. With the data for 2, 2 1/4 and 2 1/2" hulls to get a load or two out of the hulls we might other wise throw in the trash. Gp

Petander

12-12-2018, 07:10 PM

What do you think,can this be used for roll crimp only?

http://i63.tinypic.com/1zg9c7t.jpg

Here is a video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cm_VKYXRRNI

trapper9260

12-12-2018, 08:16 PM

Treeman

12-12-2018, 08:26 PM

Petander, Wow. I don't know whether it does a roll crimp as set up (it seems highly possible that the powered station will roll crimp if used alone) but that is an impressive bit of loading equipment.

bikerbeans

12-12-2018, 11:10 PM

What do you think,can this be used for roll crimp only?

http://i63.tinypic.com/1zg9c7t.jpg

Here is a video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cm_VKYXRRNI

GP,

Have you ordered one? I know you need another gadget.

I wonder how many slugs i would need to reload to recover the purchase of that fine looking press?

BB

longbow

12-12-2018, 11:27 PM

More than all of us have shot in the last 10 years I suspect... but that's just me. I think it is out of my budget range... on that note a quick internet search reveals that they seem to range for 240 Euros to almost 500 Euros depending on options. Not that outrageous but more than I would pay, so yeah I guess out of my budget range.

Nonetheless a nice looking and functional machine.

Longbow

gpidaho

12-13-2018, 12:36 AM

BB: That is one fine looking gadget right there. I'd have to stay off Ebay for a whole week if I bought one of those. LOL Seriously, I'd have to go back to work to afford that press. It does make a nice crimp, I'll give it that. Gp

TonyfromItaly

12-13-2018, 02:54 AM

What do you think,can this be used for roll crimp only?

http://i63.tinypic.com/1zg9c7t.jpg

Here is a video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cm_VKYXRRNI

Hello, you can use it for roll crimp and fold crimp. On the center you have the spool. One one side you have the pre crimper, on the other side the crimper. After crimping, in italy we usually pass the shell with a spool to make the shell lenght even and smooth .
Petander, if you can afford it, get this one ....http://www.omv.it/mito/

Petander

12-13-2018, 03:17 AM

Hello, you can use it for roll crimp and fold crimp. On the center you have the spool. One one side you have the pre crimper, on the other side the crimper. After crimping, in italy we usually pass the shell with a spool to make the shell lenght even and smooth .
Petander, if you can afford it, get this one ....http://www.omv.it/mito/

Looking good! Luckily I can't figure out how/where to buy them.

I'm jumping into tungsten loads,it is a bankrupcy anyway.

TonyfromItaly

12-13-2018, 03:45 AM

Hello, OMV ships all over Europe. Elettric motor is 220 volts.

Petander

12-13-2018, 04:04 AM

Hello, OMV ships all over Europe. Elettric motor is 220 volts.

Must be the language barrier - I can't find any prices or "add to cart" or other shopping -options. Only brochures on that webpage.

Well there was email so I mailed them.

W.R.Buchanan

12-13-2018, 04:22 AM

Nice looking Crimping Tool. If you were making lots of shells you could have someone do nothing but crimping. Assembly line style. It makes nice looking crimps. But,,,

So does my DL266, DL366, and SL900 and I can do 10 completed rounds a minute easily on the SL900 more if I really put my head down.

But it is definitely the "Ferrari" of Crimping tools. Italians do make nice looking stuff.

Randy

Petander

12-13-2018, 07:30 AM

So many good tools available everywhere...

Ranch Dog

12-13-2018, 11:27 AM

TonyfromItaly

12-13-2018, 11:44 AM

Oh, Lord! I can not look at that and keep from licking my lips! Complete, the four-station is $700 USD as US customers would not need to pay the value tax. That would be based on their $20 shipping fee. That probably be more. Heck if it was a 110 motor, I might sell a gun. I'm serious!

This is the first place I found it for sale: https://www.mygrashop.it/it/ricarica-cartucce/957-pressa-per-ricarica-mito-a-4-stazioni-in-linea.html#/198-calibro-12/239-modello_mito-completa_con_dosator
You can get Google to translate the page. You guys on the other side of the globe are so far ahead of the US slug stuff!

Ranch Dog, other suppliers sell itbesides them, but you can buy direct from the manufacturer. He has a rotary machine that makes 350 shells and hour....both with new and used hulls. As that old beer commercial of the 80's .. If you got the the time we have the beer..... We say: if you have the game to shoot, we have the reloading machines. :)

RMc

12-13-2018, 03:18 PM

After crimping, in italy we usually pass the shell with a spool to make the shell lenght even and smooth .

Is "spool" simply another name for what GAEP calls a "crimp finisher" or is there a difference?

Petander

12-13-2018, 04:46 PM

Is "spool" simply another name for what GAEP calls a "crimp finisher" or is there a difference?

Yes they are the same. A final touch.

Dang,I keep thinking about this. All-in-one crimping station. I am not a volume reloader, this would be great for experimenting...

I never meant to start reloading shotgun ammo. I never meant to get a cat either,oh well...

Ranch Dog

12-13-2018, 05:46 PM

We say: if you have the game to shoot, we have the reloading machines. :)

Yes sir, Tony, you sure do have the machines. I do think the MEC Slugger will do everything I need done and then I'm going to get on with some Texas Hog Fever. Honestly, I probably will kill one with a slug which will cause them to move to another feeder and there, I will kill the rest with BBs. Here is a perfect example of why that is so effective, flank them just a little bit and all three will drop DRT.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/MEC/slugger/images/hog_targets.jpg

W.R.Buchanan

12-13-2018, 06:20 PM

OK guys as I suspected the Italians are way ahead of us. I especially like the small 3 station crimper that hooks onto a Drill Press Spindle for the UP and Down motion...

Lots to know here and I think we are just getting started.

Randy

bikerbeans

12-13-2018, 06:53 PM

As a side benefit you will not have a 2 legged feeder when you finish shooting.

BB

gpidaho

12-13-2018, 08:28 PM

I'm having a hard time getting past this Italian crimp station. I can't see why I would NEED one but I sure do WANT one. LOL Gp

TonyfromItaly

12-14-2018, 03:34 AM

I have a Lee load all (had a micrometric bar made for it) and a Mec 600Jr. They work well,(the bushings do not work with the powders we have here) but i finish the shells on the drill press with a spool or roll crimper dedicated to fold crimping. This allows me to make the shell shorter if i want to improve burning on slow powders, or to improve performance on light loads.

You may have seen the high prices of such machines. True, but considering that we have a 22% sales tax, and other high taxes on income, social security, government health insurance.... you may understand the reason

Ranch Dog

12-14-2018, 08:41 AM

As a side benefit you will not have a 2 legged feeder when you finish shooting.BB
That's the why for using BB's over buckshot. Been there before. Heck, I've had a hunter drill a feeder leg with a 165-grain spire point out of a 308 Win and the feeder didn't even shake. Leg* is still good. Hit them with one ball of buckshot and its over.

* That feeder has been in service 27 years, never missed a day's feeding with only a battery replacement every three to four years. I'm going to retire it in January as the bottom has about had it. Just filled it for the last time.
:violin::(

Now to get me back on topic.

I'm having a hard time getting past this Italian crimp station. I can't see why I would NEED one but I sure do WANT one. LOL Gp
Dude, I'm going to be happy with the MEC Slugger, but I love machines like this. 110V and my charge card is toast.

Ranch Dog

12-14-2018, 12:10 PM

I think the Lee Loader won't work with slugs. Might get there with a buckshot load with an overshot card on top of it, but I'd rather use a star for that. I used a Lee 1-ounce slug with a Lighting 078 pressure wad. Instead of powder, was using BPI filler to get the right component stack height. With the tools in the kit, it just isn't going to roll the sides down. This is the best example I have, and it is very sloppy.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/Lee/loaders/images/12gauge.jpg_roll.jpg

W.R.Buchanan

12-14-2018, 02:18 PM

Mike: no reason why a Lee Loader won't work for slugs using a roll crimper for the final operation. My 12 ga loader is an early version made before Lee Precision. see pic.

It has stuff that I have accumulated and added over the years, and has never produced even one good Fold Crimp, but adding the Roll Crimper makes it viable. I've got some ideas on a manual version of the Lyman/ BPI roll crimper. I think the Fold Crimp problem is the reason why Lee stopped making the kit. You wouldn't think it is that big a problem but apparently it is.

Randy

dsh1106

12-14-2018, 03:38 PM

Randy

If you have an old "Yankee Push Drill" that might have enough resistance to use with the Lyman roll crimp head, for a completely portable unit.

Scott

RMc

12-14-2018, 06:59 PM

I think the Lee Loader won't work with slugs. Might get there with a buckshot load with an overshot card on top of it, but I'd rather use a star for that. I used a Lee 1-ounce slug with a Lighting 078 pressure wad. Instead of powder, was using BPI filler to get the right component stack height. With the tools in the kit, it just isn't going to roll the sides down. This is the best example I have, and it is very sloppy.

I suspected the original Lee Loader would not work well with plastic shells. Even with paper hulls, forming the RTO crimp requires pumping the Lee crimp ram up and down to form a smooth finished crimp.

RMc

12-14-2018, 08:11 PM

Randy

If you have an old "Yankee Push Drill" that might have enough resistance to use with the Lyman roll crimp head, for a completely portable unit.

Scott

Maybe, however consider this:

In the early 1960s, Lyman Easy shotshell loaders could be had with or converted to have a spiral ratchet roll crimp station. This "push drill" arrangement worked well with paper hulls, but not so much with plastic hulls. The roll crimp option was apparently soon dropped, except in 10 gauge*, although the Lyman Easy shotshell loader stayed in production through the 1970s.

*The grand ole' ten bore was among the last of the "gauges" to transition to fold crimps and plastic hulls.

RMc

12-14-2018, 08:36 PM

I'm having a hard time getting past this Italian crimp station. I can't see why I would NEED one but I sure do WANT one. LOL Gp

I appears, from this side of the pond at least, most European shotshell loading equipment is designed primarily for loading new hulls. On the other hand American shotshell loading equipment is obviously geared to reloading previously fold crimped fired hulls.

Frankly the powered spool/crimp finisher die stations mimic the high speed loading equipment in use by major shotshell manufacturers. That is why fold crimp shotshells emerging from the "Italian crimp station" look like new factory loaded shells.

dsh1106

12-14-2018, 09:24 PM

Maybe, however consider this:

In the early 1960s, Lyman Easy shotshell loaders could be had with or converted to have a spiral ratchet roll crimp station. This "push drill" arrangement worked well with paper hulls, but not so much with plastic hulls. The roll crimp option was apparently soon dropped, except in 10 gauge*, although the Lyman Easy shotshell loader stayed in production through the 1970s.

*The grand ole' ten bore was among the last of the "gauges" to transition to fold crimps and plastic hulls.

RMc

I have a Lyman Easy Loader setup with the roll crimping station and works fine with most of the hulls I've tried. Some of the roll crimp pictures I posted were produced on my Easy Loader.

Scott

gpidaho

12-14-2018, 09:37 PM

Scott set me up with a great little Lyman Easy Loader. They are nice little machines. I decided to save a little money by buying the other Russian Federation roll crimper instead of the Italian machine. These are hand held and the crimp head is just screwed down like tightening a C-clamp. At $30 I figure I saved over $1,500. I'll let you know how it works. Gp the gadget king.

W.R.Buchanan

12-14-2018, 11:05 PM

Well after I played with the Lee Loader again I remember why it normally lives in the bottom of my Die Cabinet.

Once again I was unable to get it to produce anything usable and I wasted 2 hulls trying. So I'm out another .08.
Also the AA hulls I have need to be trimmed before I can make a Roll Crimp on them. They were having nothing to do with either roll crimper I have now which resulted in having to take them apart.

I normally use the DL266 for loading this type of stuff and it does everything well. I can take them up to the step before the roll crimp or finish with a Fold Crimp. The one thing I like about the BPI Roll Crimper is it tapers the front of the hull after rolling the crimp in, and this will aid in feeding in the A5 and Mossbergs.

I got a Lyman Roll Crimper from Scott here on these threads and played with it a little today and it will require a little more study to get the results I think it is capable of.

I definitely need a way to trim the mouths of fired hulls so that they will take a decent roll crimp, and I need to make myself a real hull vise to hold the hulls strait up and down so they are square on the end. My Mill Vise setup leaves a little to be desired, but I can't bring myself to buy a vise when I own a machine shop and just need to get out there and build it.

All of this will come together in the coming weeks after the A5 gets home and I get a chance to shoot some slugs and figure out what works and what doesn't.

I figured out today that roll crimping doesn't work very well on the Lyman Sabot Slug, fold crimping it is the way to go. I think Lyman actually stated that?

I also have a Lee 1 oz slug mould coming that will take the place of the Lyman Foster slug mould that is one of the worst moulds I have ever had. Look for it soon on Ebay!

One of the things that is looking like it is a solid is that Full Bore Slugs, or Slugs that protrude from the Sabot or Wad or are part of a Shuttlecock Style Slug need to be Roll Crimped, as the crimp physically keeps the slug from moving. And slugs or balls that are down inside the wad petals need to be Fold Crimped as the Roll Crimp won't be thick enough to block them from going out the front.

Opinions requested on this last statement?

Lots more left to discuss here.

Randy

swamp

12-14-2018, 11:29 PM

I am using the Lee 1 oz. slug. I fold crimp them and find a overshot card on top of the slug helps get a good crimp. Without it the crimp was pushed in. Not enough support from the slug alone.
swamp

RMc

12-15-2018, 12:15 AM

RMc

I have a Lyman Easy Loader setup with the roll crimping station and works fine with most of the hulls I've tried. Some of the roll crimp pictures I posted were produced on my Easy Loader.

Scott

I'm glad you are getting satisfactory RTO crimps from your Lyman Easy.
I must have missed the pictures you mentioned. Links?

I have been using Lyman Easy Loaders in several gauges for quite a few years and find them to be quite handy for most general purpose shotshell loading.

dsh1106

12-15-2018, 09:03 AM

I'm glad you are getting satisfactory RTO crimps from your Lyman Easy.
I must have missed the pictures you mentioned. Links?

I have been using Lyman Easy Loaders in several gauges for quite a few years and find them to be quite handy for most general purpose shotshell loading.

RMc

Pics posted here
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?371566-Sabot-Technologies&p=4515432#post4515432

Post 54

longbow

12-15-2018, 10:57 AM

Randy:

I laugh every tine I read your comments about the Lyman Foster slug mould! I think you have mentioned how much you don't like about as many times as I have warned people not to buy one! Which is every time the subject comes up!

Of all the moulds I own and have owned it is undoubtedly the WORST! I have never figured out how to get it to cast well and release slugs. Having said that I haven't worked terribly hard at it because the slug just doesn't perform.

With a thicker nose and thicker skirt to minimize deformation, and larger diameter to fit the bore, and if the slug would release from the core pin... a lot of "ands"! it might make a decent slug. I won't go on, you know the story. I am surprised Lyman has made those moulds for so long and not rectified the problems. My Lee slug moulds cast very well (as do my home made moulds) and are reasonably accurate right out of the box. Who'd want to pay 3x as much for the Lyman Foster mould?

But to get back onto topic here, the one attribute I can think of for the Lyman Foster slug is that the hemispherical nose allows for a nice roll crimp and good looking load. Doesn't shoot worth beans but nice crimp.

I often wonder which is better but I usually roll crimp slugs. Mostly so I can see they are slugs without marking hulls and segregating loads... well, not like I dump slug and birdshot loads into the same box but it is nice to have that visual "That one is a slug." indicator.

If the MEC Slugger crimps as well as Ranch Dog is saying then surely dies can be made to fit a MEC 600 or Sizemaster... or whatever. Dontcha think?

Hmmmmm... I wonder if Ranch Dog would make a casting of the inside of his dies?

Longbow

jmort

12-15-2018, 11:23 AM

MEC sells a 600 Slugger conversion kit

Ranch Dog

12-15-2018, 03:45 PM

MEC sells a 600 Slugger conversion kit
Not to sure about that. There was a Short Kit (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013188857/mec-600-slugger-short-kit-converts-3-loaders-to-2-3-4), but I don't think that is offered anymore as you change the height of the press like the other current production Mark V. This is a bit of a guess because the Slugger does not come with an specifics or at least mine didn't. It is all run of the mill 600 Mk 5 instructions.

If the MEC Slugger crimps as well as Ranch Dog is saying then surely dies can be made to fit a MEC 600 or Sizemaster... or whatever. Dontcha think?

Hmmmmm... I wonder if Ranch Dog would make a casting of the inside of his dies?
Ahhh... not a chance. I'm receiving my replacement within the next couple of hours. When I was packing the press that I purchased, I turned it upside down and the insides first stage die was a mess. I'm certain the press that Midway sent me was a return but that is for MEC and MidwayUSA to figure out. I ran my finger up in the die when I started having problems, it was slick and smooth, but never looked up in the die. It is a scored up mess. Heck, it was supposed to be new. So, I'm not taking a chance on buggering anything.

jmort

12-15-2018, 04:34 PM

I was looking around, and it was a short kit for the slugger
I guess it is too difficult to convert 600 to a slugger

W.R.Buchanan

12-15-2018, 07:21 PM

Mike: When you get your Slugger back up and running would you try crimping a previously Fold Crimped hull? I would like to see if it will do it, and I think it will.

I am trying to understand why that machine is $329 when a 600 jr is $250?

The conversion kits on Ebay are @$40 and only include the shell holders. Not much to it. No complete machines on Ebay at all. I have a 15% off coupon I need to use today but can't find anything to buy! Darn.

To advance forward,,, I went to one of our Last Gun Shows today and picked up a Lee .319 Round Ball Mould for $25 and last night I ordered a Hull Trimmer some Mica and some Overshot Cards from BPI.

Randy

RMc

12-15-2018, 08:38 PM

Perhaps the following may help:

Mec specs:

https://www.mecshootingsports.com/600-slugger

Visual: Loading previously fired fold crimped hulls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF57Uu2wkSU

Ranch Dog

12-15-2018, 09:01 PM

Mike: When you get your Slugger back up and running would you try crimping a previously Fold Crimped hull? I would like to see if it will do it, and I think it will.

I've done it with a fresh hull and will try a shot hull when it arrives. It is still supposed to be here tonight.

In that the crimp starter die was inop on the Slugger, with the fresh hull, I barely started the fold over using the Load All and then went back to the Slugger for crimp stations two and three.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/MEC/slugger/images/slugger_workaround.jpg

Nice and ironed out after the shot! No problems running another STI back in the hull without sizing.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/MEC/slugger/images/slugger_after_shot.jpg

I am trying to understand why that machine is $329 when a 600 jr is $250?
Not being a smart alec, but probably because they can.

The conversion kits on Ebay are @$40 and only include the shell holders. Not much to it. No complete machines on Ebay at all. I have a 15% off coupon I need to use today but can't find anything to buy! Darn.
I'm not sure what the Short Kit does as shell length is changed directly on the press with fine measurements made through the dies. When I talked to MEC about my press, the first thing they needed was the first digits of the serial number so I wonder if the press has changed. The product number of the Short Kits are not listed when searching the MEC website.

If you search "slug" on the MEC site, a short kit for the Slug Master is brought up but I can find no reference to the that press on the web. I will probably talk to MEC again this week and try to get it sorted out.

You are right about the lack of Sluggers, when I bought mine, that put them out of stock on Midway's website. I asked MEC if they were seasonal and the agent said no. He went and pulled one off the line while talking to me to make sure it was perfect.

[
To advance forward,,, I went to one of our Last Gun Shows today and picked up a Lee .319 Round Ball Mould for $25 and last night I ordered a Hull Trimmer some Mica and some Overshot Cards from BPI.
Dude, you are going to love that trimmer! I have his Knockout enroute to place on Station 1.

I worked on some centerfire cartridges today, a lot less stressful!

tomme boy

12-16-2018, 12:51 AM

Anyone ever thought about sending their lymann foster to Eric at HPmoulds to open it up to cast it at bore diameter? That should solve the thin skirt and size problem.

longbow

12-16-2018, 03:04 AM

Buckshot did that for someone on this site several years ago and the customer was happy. IIRC that was for smoothbore but should work well for rifled gun too. 4 driving bands were added so effectively three lube grooves. Post #10 below:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?322470-Lyman-foster-slugs

The main problem with thickening up the nose and skirt is weight. A solid slug as long as the Lyman Foster would weight 600+ grs. I'm sure. The Dixie Tusker was 600 grs. and a very nice slug but designed for rifled gun. I don't think I'd want a slug of more than 600 grs. with the exception of the Paradox boolit. I do like those but they are solids so for rifled gun only and they weigh 740 grs. so a substantial amount of lead! They'd certainly be good for stopping bears... and large military vehicles too! A bit much for general plinking fun I suspect.

One of the big problems with the Lyman Foster mould seems to be the core pin design. I would have thought there was enough taper for release but mine does not! I have read many similar comments. Mine is quite smooth though I haven't tried polishing it to see if that helps. More taper can be machined or a new pin made with more taper but again, that adds weight.

I think an attached wad slug is the best bet for smoothbore and a solid or very thick skirted HB slug (for more bearing length but less weight) for rifled gun.

Longbow

tomme boy

12-16-2018, 03:34 AM

Maybe make the core pin out of aluminum like Lee? The expansion rate may let it release a little easier????

longbow

12-16-2018, 12:24 PM

It may be that the taper is not quite enough and a small amount more would fix the sticking but I have no particular use for the slug being so much undersize anyway so haven't pursued it.

The bigger question is why hasn't Lyman corrected this? The slug should be casting to either wad diameter of about 0.680" or bore diameter of about 0.729" not somewhere around 0.705" which does no-one any good. And fix the pin sticking? Both are easy fixes but they don't do it. Makes a guy wonder. Lyman had the only commercial slug mould for many years then Raping came along and they had some good slug designs but they closed down, then Lee came along with their wad slugs which are far superior to the Lyman Foster in my experience. Lyman came out with the 525 gr. wad slug which generally gets decent reviews but they should either fix or discontinue their full bore Foster slug. Adding some driving bands so it can be lubed properly while brining it to bore diameter, thickening the nose and putting a bit more taper on the core pin would likely fix it to a decent slug.

My home made TC HB slug mould based on turbo1889's Brooks mould casts wonderfully well and is far more accurate than the Lyman Foster. My mistake there was not double checking the bore diameter of my single shot slug gun and making a mould that cast to 0.729" where the bore is 0.733"! DOH! After I realized my mistake I knurled slugs up then sized to 0.733" and that worked quite well. I'd say it is a 50 yard slug though... maybe somewhat further but I doubt 100 yard accuracy will be great.

Now that I have the Mossberg Slugster with 0.729" bore I'll try some in that.

Shorter story is that bore diameter slugs shoot much better than slugs that cast smaller than bore diameter so why does Lyman do that? Along with poor pin release I am surprised anyone still buys those moulds.

There's arguments about a large meplat being a better design for killing but I don't hear any negatives about the Lee round nose slugs or round balls from muzzleloaders and I have to think that round nose/round ball or not a 12 ga. slug whistling through living tissue is going to do a lot of damage from shear diameter along. Not that a TC design or RNFP with large meplat would be a bag thing. Again, Rapine had a nice TC design. The Lyman Foster never has been nice.

One man's opinion.

Longbow

W.R.Buchanan

12-16-2018, 03:40 PM

LB: your comment about killing power being a function of large meplat is exactly what slugs are all about.

Taylor Knock Out tends to favor larger calibers simply because the frontal area of the projectile dumps it's energy faster that smaller faster boolits. Bus vs Porsche.

A 12 ga 1 oz Slug 440 gr at 1300 fps has a TKO of 60 and a muzzle energy of @1600 ftlbs.

A 12 ga 1 1/8 oz slug (490 gr) at 1600 fps has a TKO of 84 and a muzzle energy of @2850 ftlbs.

A.458 Win Mag 500 gr at 2150 fps has a TKO of 70 but muzzle energy of @5150 ftlbs.

The frontal area delivers the TKO or Knock Down Power, but the velocity and smaller dia delivers the penetration.

The Brenneke Slugs will.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....l;;l; take down any Bear (Cat typing!)

But I think so will any of our attempts at reinventing the wheel.

We have the power and these threads are helping us understand that power!

New Idea! how about one of your Lee Slugs with the Felt wad attached shoved down into a cut down hull and roll crimped?

Short Brenneke?

My mind drifts along.

Randy

longbow

12-16-2018, 04:29 PM

Randy:

My comment was more about different slug design than diameter. Same diameter but the Lee slug is round nose and the Lyman 525 gr. is wadcutter flat nose. I am sure that flat nose does more damage but ultimately does it matter when a 3/4" diameter (more or less) object is poking a hole in living tissue?

I've read comments that the round nose "pushes" tissue out of the way while the flat nose tears it. Not disputing that but a .50 cal. round ball from a front stuffer is quite deadly so a 12 ga. ball must be as deadly or more so.

Anyway, not an issue for current Brenneke'izing.

Once of the reasons I don't like HB slugs is that many years ago I had a reloading "mishap" with Lyman Foster slugs. I've posted this before but... I was having trouble with the Lyman recipes not performing very well at all with things like wads stuck in cavities, wads going right through slugs leaving a tube, collapsed skirts, uneven obturation, and the list goes on. One of my "solutions" was to fill the cavity with cornmeal before loading. That seemed to help, I am assuming, by taking some of the compression load and supporting the skirt. Otherwise this was a book loading.

I found that some of the loads kicked more than others and I got sticky extraction. I should at that point have realized that something was not right but the slugs seemed to be working reasonably well... finally!

I took some out with my single shot (I had been using the Browning BPS). I loaded one up out in the bush, took aim, pulled the trigger and chaos ensued! The gun felt like rubber and I felt a spray in my face. Once the event was over I found myself holding a forearm and buttstock with action... no barrel (hence the rubbery feel). I had a bit of blood trickling down my face but otherwise unhurt except it turns out some hearing loss.

The barrel was about 10' in front of me missing the entire top of the chamber. Later examination showed lead from the case mouth into the forcing cone ~ 2 3/4" hull in 3" chamber. My assumption as to what happened is that the slug got whacked in the butt and expanded to fill the chamber and the cornmeal compressed to near solid so when this all hit the forcing cone it cause a pressure spike while trying to squeeze down. Pure speculation on my part but what I know is that the load was a book load and I only had one powder on hand and if I double charged I wouldn't have fit everything into the hull.

I also know that the undersize Lyman Foster obturates to fill the bore swelling from 0.705" to bore diameter because I've recovered enough of them from deep snow to measure and confirm.

Regardless, I decided at that point that Brenneke like slugs or round balls are much safer in that regard as they do not obturate.

So, on to shorty slug loads. Yup! I like the idea but would not recommend it using typical HB Foster style slugs. I won't do it anyway. A short load with HB slug that obturates and fills the chamber has to squeeze back down at the forcing cone at about peak pressure.

A short Brenneke round... absolutely! These modified Lee slugs cast from ACWW should not obturate at all and with attached wad should improve performance/accuracy if the wads are all consistent and it should all fit into a standard shotcup without trimming if the attached wad is sized correctly. If the accuracy holds up beyond 50 yards or maybe 60 yards or maybe even 70 yards then they are a better choice than round ball. If not I'll stick with round balls which are hard to beat to at least 50 yards.

Hah! I am still trying to do better than the lowly round ball and not really succeeding! But then I do like round balls too!

By the way if you want the cat to type for you, you should show it that there is more than one key on the keyboard! I had the dog at work with me last week but I failed to teach him how to 3D model in SolidWorks. Too bad, I'd rather stay home and sleep while he works. Oh well. He's 9 1/2 so at retirement age anyway, like me. Coming soon!

Well that was a bit wordy then wasn't it?

Longbow

jmort

12-16-2018, 04:46 PM

The Lee slug will have great terminal effect. I love meplats and Lead Bullets/Slugs Technology. BTW, at least to 50 yards, this is impressive

232184

longbow

12-16-2018, 05:18 PM

Are you using soft lead or wheelweights for slugs? At 524 grs, I'd guess pure lead.

Are you filling the cavities?

Every Lyman slug I've found shows compressed/collapsed skirt. Not saying it is a bad thing as long as it is consistent. In fact it could be a good thing if the skirt expands to fill the bore tightly against wad petals.

And yes, that is impressive! I am guessing recoil is pretty impressive with 44 grs. of Blue Dot too!

Longbow

Hogtamer

12-16-2018, 06:13 PM

Yes fill the cavities...overfill with hot glue then trim flush with hot blade after glue sets. Cheap, easy and effective. Yes, soft lead. Compared them shot for shot and soft lead significantly improved accuracy. No doubt that load jmort posted will work, I use a different wad and hull but same result at 50 yds, 3" group at 100, loaded over longshot to similar velocity. Maybe tighter for younger fellow behind the gun. Field tested to my satisfaction against clay banks and about 15 hogs. Longest was 103 measured yds through one's heart. Haven't recovered a slug from an animal yet. This from rifled barrel. Awesome killing slug to at least 100 yds.

longbow

12-16-2018, 08:57 PM

Now if only I could do that with a smoothbore...

Even 6" at 100 yards would do me! Did it with AQ's but not home made... yet!

If you are getting 3" groups at 100 yards there is no reason to look for anything better I would say. That would keep me very happy! Why you could go on a varmint hunt with that accuracy. Might be a bit overkill for gophers but... can you ever have too much gun? Or in this case boolit?

Got to get me a rifled barrel for the Slugster!

Longbow

Ranch Dog

12-17-2018, 07:27 AM

Very impressive work, jmort, and thank you for the details provided! Saving that image to go back to the NOE offering of the same.

jmort

12-17-2018, 12:05 PM

Sorry guys, I cannot take credit for that
Found it in Google images as I am working on loads for the Mihec clone
Thought it was useful so I posted it
I have yet to duplicate a group that good
That is a lead slug, not an alloy, out of a rifled 870

W.R.Buchanan

12-17-2018, 05:03 PM

Now if only I could do that with a smoothbore...

Even 6" at 100 yards would do me! Did it with AQ's but not home made... yet! Longbow

Have you seen the Raven Crossbow? 3" at 100 yards,,, from a Crossbow! $1500 US

Maybe we should be designing Crossbow Bolts instead of slugs.

On another note: Talked to BPI today and found out the slugs that they sell which have the plug in wads all come from Italy. That's DGS slugs, Thunderbolts and Thug Slugs. I suspected as much as I got 5 Thunderbolts given to me by the maker at SHOT a few years ago, but never connected the dots. BPI gets $2 ea for those slugs!

He also told me that many guys routinely get <3" groups at 100 yards with various slugs and concoctions, and that we are on the right track.

This pretty much confirms that the Italians invented this type of slug/wad combo, and then the Russians knocked it off.

We need to be coming up with our own projectiles. And we already have the Lyman Sabot, the STI slug/wad combo, and the Foster Style Slug. I guess Lightfield has their own slug as well, and there's probably a few others I don't know about.

Maybe a Foster/Brenneke Hybrid could be something new?

Back to Roll Crimping: My STI Slugs loaded in AA hulls come out about 1/8" longer than the same slugs loaded into previously fired Federal Slug hulls. However they do roll crimp cleanly and after I trim about 1/8' off the front end of the fired hulls they should crimp perfectly. I think those hulls have a longer base wad in them which would account for the difference in loaded length. ( Actually on closer inspection the STI wad is the same length as the Blue Claybuster wad for the Lyman Sabot Slugs but the Hammerhead sticks out an extra 1/8" and the crimp extends about 1/16 beyond that.)

So far I have loaded several Federal hulls with STI slugs and roll crimped them with the BPI tool, and you saw the pics of those earlier. Pretty happy with that tool as it puts a nice taper on the front end of the cartridge which will aid in feeding in the mag fed guns. Those Federal hulls are the best crimps I've done so far.

The Fiocchi hull on the left was the first one I did and it came out OK. The blue one is a factory loaded Foster Slug.

Definitely need a Hull Vise and will be drawing up something in the next few days. I see deficiencies in everything I have seen out there so far, and I can do better.

Randy

gpidaho

12-17-2018, 07:52 PM

Well guys, after a few days thought, I've come up with a roll crimp station that works pretty good. I found one of those old Craftsman jigs that turns a drill motor into a drill press buy just clamping the drill into the stand. I used a Dewalt 18v battery drill and have a trigger holder using a sip-tie and a small wedge (Arkie engineering at it's best} this allows a very slow RPM that is adjustable And leaves one hand free to hold the hull with some channel locks and the other to control the up-down lever. Fairly low tech but it works really well. Gp

dsh1106

12-17-2018, 08:24 PM

Cap'n Morgan

12-18-2018, 11:44 AM

Definitely need a Hull Vise and will be drawing up something in the next few days. I see deficiencies in everything I have seen out there so far, and I can do better.

Randy

I made a fancy shell holder once, but after seeing the Italian roto-crimper Rolls Royce, I believe a small hard wood board or similar with a tapered hole about 15-20 degree included angle will be both faster and better than a dedicated vice.

longbow

12-18-2018, 08:45 PM

Now there's a guy that's thinking!

I had been thinking myself but more along the lines of a simple "tong" tool with hole for hull lined with rubber (inner tube?)... open around the hull squeeze closed like a mould or pliers, crimp then open and release.

You are right though that Italian press uses what appears to be a stepped conical recess to suit different rim sizes. Your tapered hole idea is well worth a try... no moving parts!

As my old drawing/design checker used to say "Simplicity is the ultimate technology." "The fewer moving parts the better."

Longbow

W.R.Buchanan

12-18-2018, 11:13 PM

Gp; my dad gave me his Craftsman Mini Drill Press and I ran it with my Milwaukee 3/8 Drill Motor for years. You can mount the drill upside down also and it makes an excellent tool for chamfering primer pockets when you have a zillion to do.

Plug in Drill Motors usually have a "stay on" function on the trigger.

Here's a Pic

Randy

W.R.Buchanan

12-21-2018, 12:39 AM

today I got the BPI hull trimmer in along with some overshot cards and a jug of Mica.

The hull trimmer works pretty good after I put a big chamfer on the hull guide.

I cut down a few hulls then loaded them with 9 pellets of 0 Buckshot ( Lee .319 balls tumbled!) Lyman Slugs and Lee Slugs I just made yesterday.

All roll crimped with the BPI Roll Crimper at 150 rpms.

The hulls were new style AA's and I was surprised how thick the plastic is on those hulls. I cut @1/4" off the front which got most of the previous crimp off.

The 4 shells shown below, 2 on the left are buckshot with a 12 ga overshot card. The other 2 are Lyman and Lee Slugs. The Fiocchi hull produced the smoothest crimp as the others all had the very last of the previous crimp folds left which showed up right at the top. Still these were decent and repeatable.

Starting to get the hang of Roll Crimping. Now to go shoot all of them up and start again.

Randy

swamp

12-21-2018, 12:51 AM

I just ordered the BPI trimmer and a hand operated roll crimper. Going to give it a try.
swamp

W.R.Buchanan

12-23-2018, 02:11 AM

W.R.Buchanan

12-23-2018, 09:19 PM

Here's a device I made today, not much to this one but it works fairly well and doesn't make your hand cramp.

It is a Hull Holder for Roll Crimping and it consists of a piece of 1/2" aluminum plate, this one just happens to be 2 3/8 x 3" cuz had it laying around with a .812 hole thru it, off center.

I measured a bunch of hulls and they were all from .807-.812 in dia at the base. (not the rim) So I made the hole .812.

My original Idea had the plate cocking slightly to hold onto the hull. In actual use you push down on the plate and keep the base of the hull flat on the table and I guess the hull is held in place by downward pressure on the rim. Either way it works.

I built these 5 rounds this afternoon based on AA hulls with the previous crimp cut off, to test the tool. They are loaded with 20 gr of Green Dot (Trap Load) and a Blue Wad with a 1/4" Felt Wad and Lee 1 oz slug on top then Roll Crimped using the Lyman tool at @140-150 rpms. I did this on my Mill Vise but it could have been done on the drill press or with a hand drill just as easily. The tool holds the hull pretty well with minimal downward pressure.

Feel Free to knock this one off. It could probably be made from wood or plastic.

Randy

tomme boy

12-23-2018, 10:41 PM

Simple and it works!

gpidaho

12-23-2018, 11:00 PM

I like that. Like tome boy said, simple.

W.R.Buchanan

05-18-2019, 05:27 PM

I have progressed a long way since the last post on this thread 6 months ago.

I have gotten the BPI Roll Crimp Tool to work very well now and it produces very nice consistent crimps with a nice taper on the front of the shell to aid in feeding.

I have settled on 200 RPM's as the best operating speed but it is not super critical. It seems to be a balance between rotational speed and feed speed.

I have also made a new shell vise/clamp and I have to confess that I stole the idea from a guy on Youtube, we all watched his video a few months ago and he had several good ideas. It was simple to make and works really well, and costs almost nothing.

I am using my Milling Machine Spindle to crimp simply because it is there and easy to setup for crimping. It also lets me control the speed and depth of the spindle easily so I can try different speeds which is what I did until I settled on 200 RPM's as the sweet spot.

A few observations:

1. Previously Fold Crimped Hulls don't crimp as nice as Previously Roll Crimped Hulls.

2. Strait Wall Hulls roll crimp better than tapered hulls. IE: Cheaper hulls like Rio Cheddite, Fiocchi, crimp better than Winchester AA or Remington STS Hulls. New strait walled hulls crimp the best of all,,, and if you notice pretty much all Factory Loaded Slugs are loaded in strait walled hulls. Save your AA's ad STS hulls for Your Trap Loads.

3.Having a flat place for the crimp to seat on makes for better finished shells. Slugs with Flat Noses or Steps allow for more consistent Crimps. See Brenneke Slugs and Gualandi Thug Slugs as good examples. This design gives the Roll Crimp a good place to seat and produces more consistent ammunition. Note in the pics below that all of those slugs have flat faces for the crimp to seat on. Also note that the Factory Brenneke and Lightfield Slugs were loaded into normal Rio hulls. Nothing special and yet they are considered to be the best shotgun slugs available.

Believe me "anyone" can load ammo this good!

4. Overall lengths of the completed shells needs to be consistent for best accuracy. Wad pressure seems to be the primary variable here. If all your components are the same then all your loaded rounds should end up the same length as long as when you seat the wad it gets the same amount of compression from round to round.

Obviously the best way to do this is on a loading machine, however you can do it by hand by using a bathroom scale to push down on. You insert your Rammer (piece of 5/8" dowel) and push down on the wad to the same amount of weight each time. (This idea came from the Lee Classic Shotshell Loader instructions and it works just fine.) This will insure that the base of the shot cup in the wad is at the same elevation with relation to the base of the hull, and after the slug is introduced and the crimp closed the result should be rounds that are very close to the same length.

We take it for granted that our loaded brass cartridges all look the same. We know there are fine points that must be considered and many of us go out of our way to make sure that all our loaded rounds are as close to identical as possible.

Got news for ya,,, The same holds true for shotgun ammunition, only the fine points are a little different. Just stuffing a spent hull full of powder and shot will certainly shoot, but if you want rifle like accuracy out of your slug gun you are going to have to pay attention to some details.

Bottom line is whomever makes the best ammo, will probably shoot the best.

Randy

Petander

05-26-2019, 08:16 AM

Consistent results made me go italian. I have a couple of friends who can use this as well.

242419

242420.

I find myself converting factory trap ammo to "Economy Slugs" in quite large batches now. RB in 20, Lyman in 12.

W.R.Buchanan

05-26-2019, 01:28 PM

Petander: That Italian machine makes nice crimps and the machine itself is pretty nicely made. They take shotgunning alot more seriously over there than we do. A quick look at the guns they make pretty much tells the story. They've just been at it longer than we have, and they definitely have a more refined eye for aesthetics than we ever will. Perrazzi, Ferrari, Sophia! Just to name a few.

It will do all Gauges with just a change in the spool, right.

Since you now have one, it would be cool if you could do a total Expose' and show us all the details on the machine here on this thread.

This is one method of Roll Crimping that we in the US seldom see and thus are not generally aware of.

Your converted Trap Ammo looks perfect !

The whole reason for this thread is to make people understand that mastering Roll Crimping is the key to making quality Shotgun Slug and Buck ammo.

When your ammo is right you will shoot better, and it doesn't matter what you are shooting at.

Randy

W.R.Buchanan

05-26-2019, 08:33 PM

Now: I have a question that I have been pondering for a while, and have not been able come up with a logical answer for.

What is the purpose of the bumps in the Roll Crimping Tools? Most all of them seem to have them. Some have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 6 bumps or some even have "Ramps" instead of bumps.(the Russian hand crank tool) I have also seen tools that had no bumps at all.

So what's the deal?

Randy

Petander

05-27-2019, 06:08 PM

The Italian thing has three "waves" and on top of each "wave" is a "pin'.

Got no better words. But someone has obviously designed these right. One gets more pressure and heat at the roll point this way,I'm only guessing here? It would take more force to roll everywhere at once,thus making it easier to crush the hull...?

I haven't crushed hulls with this thing.

242478

gpidaho

05-27-2019, 06:55 PM

Petander: I just finished watching a few videos on You tube . OMV makes some really NICE loading equipment. I wonder if they sell their products in the U.S. The crimping tool that mounts on a table top drill press is of special interest to me. I'm afraid their fancy loading press with the vibrating powder drop station might be out of my price range. Thanks for posting pictures of your new smart machine. I'm impressed. Gp

W.R.Buchanan

05-28-2019, 10:15 PM

OK that's good. Fortunecookie45LC on Youtube and the Reloaders Network just did a video on a tool being made here in the US that makes pretty nice crimps and the hulls are pretty reusable after firing. It has 4 bumps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoEWvwSeeyc

Check this out.

I have to tell you guys what I am looking for is Smooth Radiused Roll Crimp with a nice Taper on the front of the hull like the BPI tool does.

Seems like you get one or the other and nobody makes one that does both functions.

The only problem I see with the BPI tool is that it creases the mouth of the hull which distorts it permanently. If they would make the pins with a radius in them they wouldn't crease the hull. Seems like?

Thoughts?

Randy

gpidaho

05-28-2019, 10:56 PM

I don't know how many of you own or have used the Russian hand roll crimping tool that looks like the old fashion ideal tools, clamps to the bench and crank it like an old pencil sharpener. Well, these tools come with an extra crimp head you can attach to a threaded shaft and use in your drill press. What's different about these is that they don't have the roll pins but are somewhat roughly cast with three step waves. and surprisingly, make a very nice roll crimp. Gp

W.R.Buchanan

05-29-2019, 03:29 AM

I got one but mine didn't come with the extra shaft. I can make one pretty easy out of a 6MM bolt and nut.

Mine was very rough and I took it apart and deburred all the parts including the inside where the Ramps are. It works OK but not as good as the BPI tool. But if I could spin it faster I think it would "run in" faster and probably make really good crimps. I'll get a bolt and try it tomorrow.

Considering using some valve lapping compound on a wasted hull, on my BPI crimp tool to see if I can radius the pin a little to produce a more curved top to it's crimps.

Randy

gpidaho

05-29-2019, 10:10 AM

You're right Randy. Mine came with an extra crimping head and I added the shaft, a bolt from the local hardware store. I have BPI 1 and 2 pin models and the Lyman -with the 6 rollers we got from Scott. This crudely cast Russian head makes as good if not better crimp. Having to have/try one of everything LOL I also bit on the crimp tool that screws down like a clamp and I'm still not sure how that one is supposed to work. Haven't spent much time trying to figure it out but so far it just crushes hulls better than anything else. Gp

Cap'n Morgan

05-29-2019, 10:49 AM

I 3-D mill my own crimp-heads from brass with three "knuckles", which I believe gives a more balanced crimp. I make them with a tight outer diameter to prevent any flare on the loaded shell. The ideal width of the circular slot seems to be about 2mm ( 0.08") I tried for a smaller width (2 x shell thickness + a little bit) but it didn't work as planned.

TonyfromItaly

05-30-2019, 02:39 AM

Hello, OMV ships their products all over the world. You can call then, Stefano or his son speak english.

W.R.Buchanan

05-30-2019, 12:36 PM

Capt: on your tool do you get a taper on the front of the hull like the BPI Tool leaves? It seems like a ball nosed cutter with some taper on the sides would do it. Like a 3MM /1/8" cutter with a 2MM nose on it and a taper from 3 to 2, but then you'd get the taper on the inside as well.

I have thought that these tools with the bumps like the Lyman were made on a mill, But all of these tools either leave either a Radiused top on the crimp and no taper on the sides or a square topped crimp with the taper. None do both.

Something to cogitate on.

Randy

Cap'n Morgan

05-31-2019, 10:04 AM

Randy, I have straight sides on the outside of the crimp profile but the diameter is slightly smaller than the shell diameter, leaving no room for the crimp to expand outwards. The crimp tool could be made with a tapered transition into the roll radius, but I have never had any problems with my crimps expanding or the shells binding when cambering.

W.R.Buchanan

05-31-2019, 02:49 PM

The last stage on My DL366 loader has a cone shaped device which tapers the front of the loaded round. The BPI tool does this and I have used the BPI tool (both turning and not turning)to impart some taper to Winchester Factory Universals that normally have a bulged crimp.

I have more malfunctions with that brand of ammo than I do with the Federals,,, So now I only buy the Federals from Walmart, $21.74 US is too cheap to even consider loading. Winchesters are the same price but not worth it.

AS far as the tapered front on the hulls the place where these really benefit you is in the loading of the rounds into the mag tube. Typically pretty much all Mag fed shotguns have a flat surface at the front of the loading port with the mag tube threaded in. Rounds tend to hang up there and anything you can do to the round to make it go in the hole easier is beneficial. On the Benelli's they cut the sides of the loading port down so you get a straighter shot at the mag tube, which allows Loading 2 shells in one push. When they grab them off their holders they grab 4 shells and load them in two pushes. The good guys can do this in about 2 seconds!

The A5 requires a steeper angle to get in the mag tube because the Lifter is much shorter and thus a nice radius on the front if the shells is a good thing. Some taper on the outside would be even better.

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USdFTFG0iCI

Randy

Walks

05-31-2019, 05:09 PM

I have a set of EARLY 20th Century tools handed down 4 generations. Wish I knew were I stashed them. They have a thumb screw operated roll crimper that will go down far enough to crimp a 2" shell, works on paper or plastic. Came with a priming tool, but no decappers.
GUESS your just supposed to punch it out with a nail. Had an OLD one piece slug mold, but that disappeared 50yrs ago. Now a Lyman Foster slug mold works for it.

Sure was fun when I was a kid in Jr. High, swiped from my Dad stash. He never asked for it back. My Little Brother and I "swiped" a little melting pot and OLD ladle from the Old Man's stash too. Would open the crimps on TRAP loads for the shot, trim the case a bit with a pocket knife and stick the slug on top of wads cut from tablet backing. Saved the WWAA12 wads to sneak into the loading process at Dad's house for later.

Packed our shotguns in their breakdown cases and rode our bike's up into the Angeles National Forest.

GEEZ!, we were dumb. Still we never blew ourselves up.
Guess we were betraying the trust our Dad had in us by letting us keep our shotguns & .22's & ammo at our Mom's house.

Of course He knew we went up to the forest to shoot. But not about the making slugs part.

These days if a LAPD Cop saw a couple of boys riding their bikes up Van Nuys Blvd, with rifles slung on their backs. It would be a National News Story. My DAD would end up in Jail and my Brother and I would go into Foster care.

Times have changed.

glockky

10-24-2019, 07:11 PM

Well I read through this whole thread trying to figure out which roll crimping tool to buy. I’ll be honest there’s lots of good info here but I still can’t make up my mind lol.

W.R.Buchanan

10-25-2019, 05:28 PM

Just get a BPI tool. It is simple and they work. Don't overthink this.

Randy

gpidaho

10-25-2019, 05:38 PM

glockky: Bpi makes two different 12ga. roll crimping tools, one with one roll pin and one with two. I own both. I believe the two pin roller does a marginally better job. Gp

toallmy

10-25-2019, 06:29 PM

:popcorn: still watching this thread .

Blood Trail

11-09-2019, 12:56 AM

I have a BPI roll crimping tool and I recently bought one from the Reloaders Network with 4 rollers. That one is far better. Puts a taper on the crimp whereas the BPI crimped don’t. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191109/75d071c347842d16940b7855f8c806c7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191109/4295b61838ce2353b9d8c56f962c41b2.jpg

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W.R.Buchanan

11-09-2019, 04:36 AM

My BPI tool puts a taper on the outside of the hull but the end is square. I got the one off Reloaders Network and it is best of both worlds.

Left one is factory Right is BPI tool.

Randy

Keith

02-27-2020, 06:03 PM

megasupermagnum

02-27-2020, 06:53 PM

Read this whole thread. Good stuff and info here.
What I see is people using roll crimps and no wad under on their Lyman 525 sabot slugs.
I have the mold and the book says "Use fold crimp only"
Is either OK and do both perform the same?
Keith

I was pretty sure the Lyman shotgun manual has both fold crimp and roll crimp data. It wont cause any danger to roll crimp, roll crimps generally produced slightly lower pressures, but it's not a huge difference.

Blood Trail

02-27-2020, 08:04 PM

I used to roll crimp the 525’s. Never got any accuracy worth a damn.

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megasupermagnum

02-27-2020, 09:02 PM

I used to roll crimp the 525’s. Never got any accuracy worth a damn.

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I wonder if it doesn't pinch up on the wad. Maybe an overshot card would help. I prefer a fold crimp on flat slugs like that, they crimp nice.

Keith

02-28-2020, 06:33 PM

Blood Trail

02-28-2020, 11:53 PM

Thanks. I am a bit leery of putting an overshot wad over a slug in case it got stuck or something.
I will stick to the fold crimp.
I have a RB mold coming .678 to go in the Federal 12S3 wads I have. I think I remember Longbow puts a roll crimp over them with no overshot wad. My manual does not cover that. Roll crimps for round ball not folds. Correct or not?

So far, I haven’t had any problems with overshot cards over slugs, although I haven’t done it in a while. I’ve tried traditions cardboard OS cards as well as the frangible plastic ones.

As far as crimping RB’s, you should be able to do both.

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Keith

02-29-2020, 02:55 AM

Great. Thanks.

W.R.Buchanan

03-03-2020, 06:24 PM

On my Round Ball loads I just fold them as they are loaded just like my Standard Trap Loads on the same machine.

Randy

Alferd Packer

03-04-2020, 12:41 PM

You have to use an extremely light touch with skiving a shell.
Like knocking the sharp edge off a brass shell.
You can squeeze a shell mouth in your fingers and tell if its heavy ,light or average.
Most are average.
Range pickups vary.
Toss to the side, the ones that aren't right.
That's among the benefits of reloading your own.
Don't use a shell that is questionable.
In cold weather, keep a hot plate with a coffee pot nearby.
Also, use the hot plate to warm your roll crimper, just a little.
It works, but not if you have a plastic crimper of course.

dsh1106

07-18-2020, 01:44 PM

.........

W.R.Buchanan

07-31-2020, 06:38 PM

I thought I would add some more thoughts and techniques I have found success with.

First Previously Roll Crimped Hulls re-crimp better than fold crimped hills. New hulls work the best. You can recondition Previously Roll Crimped hulls by using a heat gun and one of the tapered spuds. You push the hull onto the hull and let the drill rotate the whole mass while aiming the heat gun at it. The results are a perfectly round hull. See before and after pic below.

Second Pre-Heating the tool with a heat gun makes the first hull come out nice instead of using the tool to heat itself.

Next some Vaseline in the tool helps produce a nice smooth Crimp.

150-200 rpms on the tool seems to work best.

Overall stack height doesn't matter. The Crimp will go down until it stops, if you force it to go farther is will leave a little crease just below the top of the crimp. You have to push much harder on the quill to do that. You go down until you think you are there, then check the hull to see if the payload moves if so give it a little more until the payload stays put.

I can start with fresh hulls or my Reconditioned Federal Blue Hulls (pick up everyone you see as they are excellent!) and do 25 perfect crimps in a row no sweat. All the hulls are loaded at once, and then crimped all at once. You need to keep the tool hot and running thruout the whole sequence.

This is what I've been doing on my Slugs and Buckshot Loads and the results have been as close to factory as I think is possible.

Randy

W.R.Buchanan

09-12-2020, 08:40 PM

OK; another tidbit that works better than I thought.

Today I was at Home Depot in the Electrical Section where the Big Fuses are, and I saw this neato Fuse Puller. Someone had mentioned Fuse Pullers as excellent Hull Vises on another thread recently, and this one stuck in my head. $10.52 out the door. It said it was good on fuses from 13/32" to 13/16". 12 ga shotshells are really close to 13/16 on the OD and this thing fits them perfectly !

I had mentioned making my own hull holder out of plywood earlier but hulls will rotate in my tool if you don't bare down on it pretty hard.

I have to tell you this tool is far superior and grips the hulls tight without deforming them in any way. For $10 you can't go wrong.

It is a "Bussman Fuse Puller" made by the Eaton Company.

Randy

RED333

12-29-2020, 05:18 PM

I have started to load new .410 hulls with "00" buck. Made an over shot card from sheet plastic, think thin cutting sheets. Picked up the roll crimper from reloaders network . I use was to lube with, works well for me.274183274184274185

Tripplebeards

04-02-2021, 06:19 PM

Here’s my second hull I tried with a quad pin 10 gauge roller from the reloaders network...

https://i.imgur.com/61DBxvj.jpg

I had to get the roller heated up enough from the first one to get my mojo on. I’m going to have to make a shell holder because holding onto it while running a cordless drill with no RPM limiter is a challenge to get an even crimp along with my hands getting sore pretty quick. But it sure looks nice!

Slahp

04-03-2021, 08:40 PM

Ok I am having trouble will my roll crimps not being tapered on the outside of my hulls. They actually have a ridge on the outside. It doesn't have any feeding issues but doesn't look right. Am I leaving to much material to roll on top of the OS wad? I have been using new Fiocchi hulls with a 2 pin roller.

W.R.Buchanan

04-04-2021, 03:25 PM

The outside taper should be built into the tool. Try going a little deeper.

If this is a BPI two pin tool the crimp should look like this. The first two pics were with a BPI tool and you can see the outside taper and then the flat crimp on the top edge.

The third pic shows two shells I took apart to see what was inside, and then put into new hulls with the BPI Crimp Tool. The untouched factory rounds were done with a RN tools or so they said. Both Brenneke and Lightfield load their ammo into new Rio Hulls and the ones I used were exact duplicates of the factory ones.

The last pic is of a Federal Blue Hull that I loaded with a Lee Slug and crimped with the RN tool. You can see the radius on the front.

Randy

Tripplebeards

04-06-2021, 08:32 PM

I went out today and tried 40 yards and 50 yards with my same RST hulls using 692 grains of BPI #6’s and 100 grains of Fg. The only difference was I roll crimped them this time VS just gluing in an over shot card.

I had 12 hits in my turkey head target at 40 yards and only 5 hits at 50 yards. I then tried the same load but in a federal hull. I had 13 hits at 40 yards. I put a pop can behind my 50 yard target. The #6 BPI nickel plated pellets passed through the cardboard box my target was stapled to and then completely through the pop can I placed in the box to test for penetration. I don’t plan on taking a 50 a yard shot but if for some reason my bird hangs up at 40 yards I won’t hesitate to shoot it. I can tell you if that was a real bird at 50 yards today it would have been dead as a door nail IMO. One pellet to the brain and one in the neck vertebrae. Same with the RST hull 40 yard shot. I guess I just get lucky a lot with a pellet to the brain.

My first target i shot with a roll crimp RST hull at 40 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/mErXePO.jpg

My second shot with the same load at 50 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/mLoJ4lv.jpg

And here was my last test at 40 yards with the same load but with a federal hull...

https://i.imgur.com/If2YL78.jpg

I must have had a “hot” pellet or piece of powder melt part of one of my RST cases. Here is picture of the fired hulls after I slid them onto my dowel and heated the crimps with a heat gun to straighten them out...

https://i.imgur.com/ZlZBRns.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/s6LoIP5.jpg

When I inspected it the hole did not burn all the way through but I took the shell out of service just to be safe. The other two cases look great yet. I might order some brass case in the near future.

So in the future if I didn’t burn a hole completely through a case I would assume I can still load it again?

W.R.Buchanan

04-07-2021, 12:34 PM

3B: now Recon those Hulls with a Tapered Spud and Heat Gun. They will roll crimp again just like the first time.

Randy

Tripplebeards

04-07-2021, 03:24 PM

All loaded up again. I just pushed them onto my wooden trim dowel. I spun them while I put a heat gun to the outside. Also roll ceimped the hot glued rounds and cleaned out my roller afterwards. I will be trimming the RST rounds to the same length as the federals from now on. They are just a little to short to get a good roll crimp. I also mist have spun my drill a little to long and fast as I can see I melted one of the edges pretty smooth. I need to find some 10 guage hulls to practice on.

Tripplebeards

04-07-2021, 06:36 PM

I also rolled 10, 3.5” 10 gauge shells. I pushed to hard and to fast on the first one and screwed up the end of the hull. I ended up cutting it down and loading 1.5 oz of #6 shot vs 2oz in all the rest. I took the load out of the Mighty 10 gauge book. It’s 39 grains of HS-6, a x10x card, a SP10 wad (wad and card donated by a member here...thank you!) , 2oz of shot, and a overshot card. I didn’t have a bathroom scale so I just used the weight of my body to compress the x10x wad over the powder...to the point I was lifting myself up. I also tried to roll crimp without cutting the original 3.5” hulls down. That’s were I got into trouble. I needed to shorten them a bit. I trimmed them by eye since I already had the wads in place. I also roll crimped them with a cordless drum and holding them. I didn’t get them perfectly even but they all seem rock sold accept for two thst I can here pellets barely moving. I cycled four of them without firing though my browning gold. They look better in the photo...or I’m just picky. I’ll test them out on targets tomorrow. Any suggestions on how to make the over shot cards waterproof? Also my shot card isn’t perfectly flat on a couple. Will they still keep my shot in place under recoil? I’d boy I was thinking of some waterproof glue over the shot card? All I can tell you it’s time to find a drill press as my hand is getting sore holding shells.

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