44 Magnum lever guns: 1:38 Twist - WHY?

[nitro-express]

I've owned several 44 Mag lever guns with 1:38 twist, and they never met my expectations. I've researched this a bit, and IMO the poor performance (with cast bullets and cowboy loads) is in large part due to the rather lazy 1:38 twist. This seems to be an affliction mostly to those rifles that follow SAAMI specs. IMO, the SAAMI spec for 44 Mag Rifle was written by Marlin, calling for 12 narrow and shallow grooves. The "Ballard" version uses 6 slightly wider but equally shallow grooves.

I had a beautiful anniversary B92 Browning, it was a shallow slow twist rifle, and I traded it off. My next nemesis is a marlin 1894, 6 shallow grooves, and not a tight bore/groove either.

For S&G I ran some of my 44 bullets in an online twist calculator, No Sir, 1:38 twist sure doesn't seem to be the way to go.

I've owned two Brazilian 44's, one a 44 mag and the other a 44-40. The twist on each was app 1:20, at least visually wasn't close to 1:38. The guns had issues, after all they entry level firearms, but bullet stabilization and accuracy was not an issue. I checked the specs on the Italian rifles, no 1:38, or anything approaching that. Not for 44 Mag, 44-40 or 45 Colt.

So I checked the CIP specs, no sir, no slow twist there.

I was so frustrated with shooting cowboy loads in my Marlin, I tried some of my 429360 bullets, and they were the best loads of the week. Really, they wouldn't do squat in my Ruger Vaqueros, really messed with my head.

As soon as I sell my Marlin, I'll be buying an 1873 in 357/38, AFAIK, SAAMI hasn't messed up that caliber yet.

I'd like to know if anyone with a 44/1:38 thinks this is a good thing, because I'm not seeing it.




PS: I must have looked like a lunatic at the range, testing hundreds of combos, in my 1894 Marlin with a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x40mm Tactical scope mounted on it.

My best combo was with a swagged Speer 240 gr SWC and Trail Boss. 2" at 50 yards, and 2" at 100 yards. I suspect that the parallax on the 3200 10x is not that good at 50. It was rather comical, cranking in a wack of elevation to go from 50 to 100.

BTW, I find the 3200 10X pretty handy for testing loads in hunting rifles, a pretty rock solid scope, easy to work with, and when you crank in 3 moa, it moves 3 moa. It also fits on most rifles without too many issues.

[cabezaverde]

I HAD a Winchester 94 in 44 magnum. Note I said had. Frustrating gun to load for.

[ReloaderFred]

The SAAMI spec. bore diameter for the .44 Magnum rifle is .431", which is the root of a lot of problems with .44 Magnum rifles. They will shoot jacketed bullets OK, but you have to run larger cast bullets to fit the bore, especially with lighter loads that won't obturate to fill the bore. I size mine .430", and they work OK, but if I had a .431" sizing die for my Stars, I'd use that....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[osteodoc08]

Yet another reason to love the 41 Maggie.......the twist has always been right from the factory in the barrels.

[john.k]

I suspect the 1 in 38 twist was chosen by Benjamin Henry in 1860 for the new 44 rimfire.For a 200 grain bullet powered by blackpowder the shallow groove and slow twist was needed to control fouling......As often happens,when the changeover to CF 44-40 happened,the barrel dimensions were left the same..........if it works ,why change........so blaming SAAMI for the 1 in 38 is a bit far fetched....As to exactly why the 44 mag should use a larger bore than the long established 44s,that I cannot answer.....Maybe Elmer Keith is to blame.

[Don McDowell]

I suspect if you ran some .430 or .431 diameter 240 gr bullets with loads that make at least 1000 fps thru your Marlin you would see a good bit of improvement in groups.

[bikerbeans]

Velocity is your friend with a 1:38 twist 44 mag launching heavier and or longer boolits. As mentioned, you need the proper boolit diameter for the groove diameter of your barrel.

BB

[Outpost75]

My 1:38" twist .44-40 shoots just fine. So does my .44 Magnum.

231679 231681231682231683

We got no mastadons here, so I don't need heavier than a 240-grain boolit.

[sghart3578]

You're complaining about 2" groups at 100 yards with a pistol caliber lever action?

The doomsayers are right, this country is beyond hope. (Sarcasm)


Steve in N CA

[Walks]

I have one of the Winchester 94's made in 1988, a couple- three years before they brought them out as Trappers.
I've shot the HORNADY 265gr made for the .444Marlin.
Great accuracy at 100yds , under 2" with a old 2X Redfield. The SAECO # 432 cast hard and GC'ed shot just as well.

My Old pre-safety MARLIN shot almost as well.

On the other hand my Chiropractor's Winchester 94 Trapper, made in the early 2000's shoot into 3-4" at 50yds. But It's good enough for Cowboy Shooting.

But my 3 UBERTI. 44WCF's and one ROSSI .44WCF all shoot 200 -225gr .428dia into 2" at 50yrds.
Which is all you need for Cowboy Shooting and popping cans.

I guess I'm luckier then most. If I'm going to Hunt with a Rifle, I'll use a Rifle caliber.
If I still could.

[Char-Gar]

The standard twist for the 44-40 was 1-38 and the makers just continued with that when they went to 44 Mag chambering. I have a Marlin 94 that shoots cast very well, but I load it about like a 44-40. I used a 225 grain bullet over 10/Unique. That is a very effective round out of a rifle, which will kill grave yard dead anything that walks, flies or slithers in Texas. Big things in zoos not withstanding.

Problems arise when folks don't understand their rifles and think that a 44 Mag rifle should shoot heavy loads designed for their sixguns. The calibers on the barrels may be the same, but they are different critters.

[HangFireW8]

I think the OP blamed Marlin more than SAAMI, which would be correct. Manufacturers drive SAAMI standards, not the other way around. It took Marlin decades to correct the 444 twist to allow for easier stabilization of 280-300gr. Another decade or so to give us a magazine follower that would feed them.

I think 1:38 could be improved upon, but that would take retooling costs, and Remlin... well they sell enough 94's as is, so I would not hold my breath.

[Char-Gar]

I think the OP blamed Marlin more than SAAMI, which would be correct. Manufacturers drive SAAMI standards, not the other way around. It took Marlin decades to correct the 444 twist to allow for easier stabilization of 280-300gr. Another decade or so to give us a magazine follower that would feed them.

I think 1:38 could be improved upon, but that would take retooling costs, and Remlin... well they sell enough 94's as is, so I would not hold my breath.

I don't think that either Marlin or SAAMI have any blame. Most likely it is the shooters expectations that cause the difficulty. If enough shooters stoped buying those rifles, it would not be long until the makers started making them to suit the buyers expectations.

Me, I am happy as a clam at high tide with my Marlin 94. I feed it what it wants, and it gives me what I want, i.e. good thump, great accuracy and mild recoil. That is a winning combination in my book.

[sghart3578]

I don't think that either Marlin or SAAMI have any blame. Most likely it is the shooters expectations that cause the difficulty. If enough shooters stoped buying those rifles, it would not be long until the makers started making them to suit the buyers expectations.

Me, I am happy as a clam at high tide with my Marlin 94. I feed it what it wants, and it gives me what I want, i.e. good thump, great accuracy and mild recoil. That is a winning combination in my book.


Very well said.

I have several 1894's in 357 and 44 mag. Most are JM but one Remlin.

All perform beautifully with the load that I tailor to it specifically. And they all perform well with several loads, not just the one.

Marlin 1894's are my favorite rifle and there is always one, usually two in my truck for range days, even if I am just shooting my flintlocks.


Steve in N CA

[trapper9260]

I suspect if you ran some .430 or .431 diameter 240 gr bullets with loads that make at least 1000 fps thru your Marlin you would see a good bit of improvement in groups.

I have done just this for my Marlin like the OP stated he have and with the 240grs boolit the groups did got better and also did it with the 310grs from Lee and shot with the .430 and did not like the group and then got .431 die and it tight up the group and now when I load for the rifle that is what the size I use and for my RH I go with the .430. You can see about that the groups dose close in.I had got my Marlin used.It shot great just as it is with the open sights that it came with from the factory.

[longbow]

As noted, the 1:38" twist seems to be a historical twist from the .44-40's or even prior. Why the "fat" bores? Well, I have never seen any reasonable explanation as to why a rifle chambered for a handgun cartridge with SAAMI spec of 0.429" groove diameter should be saddled with a 0.431" groove diameter. Makes no sense to me at all but that's the way it is.

Fed "fat" boolits (0.432"+) my 1894 performs satisfactorily with boolits up to about 270 gr. Ranch Dog says his 300 gr. design stabilizes in 1:38" twist, out to 300 yards IIRC, and I have been told that 300 gr. WFN's also stabilize in 1:38" twist at max. velocities but those are heavies I didn't get around to trying. I decided I'd stick with 270 gr. and under which seem to work fine. I didn't want to be running max. loads all the time just to get a heavy boolit to stabilize.

My moulds:

- Mihec H&G #504 @ 0.434" (258 gr.)
- Mihec 434640 @ 0.434" (270 gr.)
- Accurate #43-165B @ 0.433" (165 gr.)
- Ranch Dog/Lee 265 gr. @ 0.432" (IIRC) (265 gr.)

All fat!

Why not use a faster twist? I can't think of a good reason and I am surprised that Marlin and others didn't do that some time ago. 1:20" or slightly slower should work just fine for light to very heavy boolits in both .44 mag. and 444 Marlin.

I understand the complaint but there are reasonable solutions that work well enough... then of course there is re-barreling but that is a bit extreme.

Longbow

[Outpost75]

The expectation of getting 2" groups with a lever action of handgun caliber at 100 yards simply is NOT realistic. Two inches at 50 yards is. And that is about what factory loads will do when fired from the industrial test barrel and Universal Receiver.

The 1:38" twist is fully adequate with bullets up to about 270 grains, such as Saeco #432.
The fellows who think they must shoot 300-grain bullets in their .44 magnums have other problems...

Hard bullets are an issue for some people which causes trouble. Bullets which are too hard and undersized are a perfect storm to lead your barrel. That is another old wives tale which needs to be killed with a wooden stake through its heart. Most leading is caused by bullets which are too hard, but NOT by being too soft.

I use 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals for my .44-40 and .44 Magnum loads up to 1080 fps in handguns and to 1450 in rifles. Size bullets .430 in both calibers for my Marlins, Rossi and Rugers. No GCs needed and no leading.

Microgroove rifling is not a problem with correct loads, bullets which fit and which have adequate lube capacity, if you are using black powder. YES I shoot Holy Black in my Microgroove Marlins and with Confederate Army Lube or SPG there are no issues. I get 3" five-shot groups and about 4" for ten shots with iron sights at 100 yards, and kill my share of game.

Fix the headspace between the ears and tighten the nut behind the buttplate.

[alamogunr]

Just bookmarked this thread. I have a Browning B92 w/1:38" barrel that I got in a real good deal about 15 yrs ago. It came with about 250 rounds of handloaded ammo. I shot one round in a Ruger Bisley and it seemed to be fairly mild, so I shot about 5 or 6 rounds thru the B92. Couldn't hit anything.

Took the rifle home and checked the barrel. I've posted about this before. I could hardly see the lands in the barrel for the leading. No wonder the previous owner sold it cheap. After a few hours of cleaning, starting with Chore Boy scrubbers, I had a clean barrel. Haven't done anything with it since. Pulled the boolits from the ammo and found them to be undersized.

After reading this thread, I've put this rifle on the project list. Hope I live long enough to get to it. I love lever actions.

[rking22]

I have a 78 Browning 92 as well. Shot it a lot in the late 70s, not much this century. Like John, this has me planning to dig it out again, thanks for the inspiration!

[longbow]

Some of us want to shoot heavy boolits whether we have to or not. I used to wonder if the heavier boolit reduced case capacity to the point that there would be less velocity and penetration but from my testing... no! The 300 gr. boolits out penetrated same design lighter boolits every time. That was why I wanted the heavies but in reality 270 gr. should do anything I want and these days I like my little 165 gr. Accurate plinker. That's like shooting a .22 on steroids... little recoil, not a lot of noise but BIG holes. I like BIG holes!

+1 on liking microgroove rifling too. I never had a problem with it in either the 1894 or 1895. I like the microgroove rifling. I also shot BP a lot in my 1895 and no trouble at all with microgroove rifling. I have loaded a few .44 mags with BP but not many, just wanted to try a "modern" .44-40. Again, no issues in the 1894 either.

I like the Marlins and given what they like they shoot well enough for most needs... or at least mine.

Longbow

[Pioneer2]

A 1-20 twist would be more useful in everything .44 using heavier bullets including the .444 I have a 1-28 in my 44-40 /1892 Win[barrel replaced] and it shoots a lot better than a plate at 100 yards pistol cartridge or not.Shoots 220gr GC just fine.The Browning 92 has shallow rifling and the wrong twist as well compounded by poor sights.

[Nobade]

I'm with the diameter believers. My Browning 92 and Marlin 1894 are both miserable with .430" bullets. But load them with .433" ones, especially if they are paper patched, at full pressure and they are incredibly accurate. Palm sized groups at 200m are no problem, and likely could be better if they had better sights. It's not the twist rate, it is the same as every other gun shooting cast bullets. The ammo has to fit the barrel or it won't work.

[Pioneer2]

A 1-20 will shoot all bullet weights up to 300gr so is more versatile and yes proper dia is a must.

[Remmy4477]

My 1894S with ballard rifling has a 1 in 20 twist.
Likes the lyman 429421 at .431.
2 to 3 inch groups at 100 meters, I am happy with that.
Actually this is the second rifle I've owned where the first load that I put together worked right from the start. I like it when that happens.


I have this same debate with the newer 44wcf rifles only regarding bore diameters, .430-.431 bores, why?

[MyFlatline]

My shorty does just fine with micro groove. Size at .431 then powdercoat.

231762

231763

[45-70marlin]

Older thread I started about this. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?281704-44-mag-1-38-twist

[farmbif]

I’ve always sized 44’s at .432 in pistol, old Rossi puma lever and 444 marlin.
Never had leading problems lubed with caranuba red
They’re not precision rifles but sure are a lot of fun

[waco]

Fix the headspace between the ears and tighten the nut behind the buttplate.

This is too funny Ed. I might have to use this!

[Outpost75]

Fix the headspace between the ears and tighten the nut behind the buttplate.

This is too funny Ed. I might have to use this!

I stole it from Frank Marshall, but he's buried at Arlington and won't mind if you use it.

[Groo]

Groo here
Its all about RPM...
A bullet needs a minimum rpm to not wobble.[due to length/weight]
To get this ,you need a specific speed from any given twist barrel...
A good load for a .43 cal 300 gr bullet from a handgun will be 1000fps.
The rpms from a 1/20 barrel will be 36000 rpm.
Put this in a rifle with a twist of 1/38 and you need 1900fps. [long time doing math!!]
If you want to slow down you need a shorter/lighter bullet.
Ps . this is just a math example as I don't know the REAL speed/rpm to stablize the bullet...
PPS If you spin a bullet too fast it can come apart

[salvadore]

Char gar is wrong, I haven't bought a marlin .44 because of the slow twist and they haven't changed it. I'm beginning to suspect that "happy as a clam at high tide" comment too.

[HangFireW8]

I don't see any reason to call Char gar "wrong" or doubt his word. His rifle meets his expectations. Others want something different. Neither are wrong, nor should we expect others to be unhappy because Remlin doesn't make it the way we want it!

[winelover]

232159


Marlin 1894 Lever @ 100 yards, 5 shots in 1 3/8 inches.................it can be done. Just need to work at it. Accurate 210 grain RNFP (GC) sized .433, Carnuba Red lube. Starline brass, neck sized using RCBS Cowboy dies.

Winelover

[alamogunr]

232159


Marlin 1894 Lever @ 100 yards, 5 shots in 1 3/8 inches.................it can be done. Just need to work at it. Accurate 210 grain RNFP (GC) sized .433, Carnuba Red lube. Starline brass, neck sized using RCBS Cowboy dies.

Winelover

Which Accurate Mold in particular? He lists several that conceivably could match that description.

No guarantee that it would work as well in my Browning but might be a place to start if none of my present molds work.

[salvadore]

Rent a sense of humor hangfire, it was a joke.

[winelover]

Which Accurate Mold in particular? He lists several that conceivably could match that description.




I had Tom cut a 4 cavity, two of each design, of the 43-210E and the 43-210EG.............the EG is the gas checked version of the same design.

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-210E-D.png

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-210EG-D.png


I use the plain base for revolvers and the gas check bullet for the Marlin carbine. The mould/bullet selection is only a small part of the equation. I shrunk the groups by more than half, by neck sizing my brass with RCBS Cowboy sizer and expanding with the included expander. Their expander is designed for cast, as is the Lyman M die.

Winelover

[DougGuy]

This thread, sums up the EXACT reason(s) that I have put off buying a levergun to shoot cast boolits. I have followed the various levergun vs. twist vs. groove diameter vs. boolit size posts for several years. Forum wide, there are easily 10x to 20x more individual posts outlining poor performance with the slow twist for every one post detailing success.

I commented on a recent thread saying that the Chiappa was the only 1:20 that I knew of, and was corrected by a reply saying the Winnie was also 1:20 but I have not read or seen this to confirm.

I think we need a twist rate chart and would be helpful if that chart had groove diameters in association with brands/model numbers of known rifles.

And of course, the boolit MUST be a good fit in the bore, it would seem that for a combo to work at it's best, you would size to get the best accuracy from the rifle, then size the revolver cylinder throats to use the same loads..

[Nobade]

The problem with that is 44 rifles use bigger barrels than 44 revolvers do. Unless you load them with black powder and soft lead bullets to allow bump up, the same load will never be ideal in both guns. If you want to do that, a 357 or 45 is way easier to get to work well.

[Chill Wills]

232159


Marlin 1894 Lever @ 100 yards, 5 shots in 1 3/8 inches.................it can be done. Just need to work at it. Accurate 210 grain RNFP (GC) sized .433, Carnuba Red lube. Starline brass, neck sized using RCBS Cowboy dies.

Winelover

That is an incredibly good group for any lever rifle at 100 yards. However, you should have a talk with the guy that stapled that target up in the wrong spot - too far to the right.

[DougGuy]

That is an incredibly good group for any lever rifle at 100 yards. However, you should have a talk with the guy that stapled that target up in the wrong spot - too far to the right.

Dang man my sides are hurtin' just had surgery and ya killin' me! :bigsmyl2:

[MSD MIke]

My newer (Miroku) 1892 Winchester in 44 Mag uses a 1:26 twist. I have not slugged my barrel but size to .432 with good results. Same size works for my Ruger SBH so I'm happy. I have not shot groups on paper off the bench but accuracy seems quite good and I have only shot bullet weights up to 250Gr. Paper plates, milk jugs, water bottle etc. are always in danger out to 100 yards. I don't hunt but I think the accuracy is just fine in the 100 yard range for hunting purposes. If you don't mind the $$ outlay for the Winchester it's worth a try.
By the way, it says 44 mag ONLY on the barrel but mine works perfectly with 44 Special.

Mike

[W.R.Buchanan]

As noted, the 1:38" twist seems to be a historical twist from the .44-40's or even prior. Why the "fat" bores? Well, I have never seen any reasonable explanation as to why a rifle chambered for a handgun cartridge with SAAMI spec of 0.429" groove diameter should be saddled with a 0.431" groove diameter. Makes no sense to me at all but that's the way it is.

Fed "fat" boolits (0.432"+) my 1894 performs satisfactorily with boolits up to about 270 gr. Ranch Dog says his 300 gr. design stabilizes in 1:38" twist, out to 300 yards IIRC, and I have been told that 300 gr. WFN's also stabilize in 1:38" twist at max. velocities but those are heavies I didn't get around to trying. I decided I'd stick with 270 gr. and under which seem to work fine. I didn't want to be running max. loads all the time just to get a heavy boolit to stabilize.

My moulds:

- Mihec H&G #504 @ 0.434" (258 gr.)
- Mihec 434640 @ 0.434" (270 gr.)
- Accurate #43-165B @ 0.433" (165 gr.)
- Ranch Dog/Lee 265 gr. @ 0.432" (IIRC) (265 gr.)

All fat!

Why not use a faster twist? I can't think of a good reason and I am surprised that Marlin and others didn't do that some time ago. 1:20" or slightly slower should work just fine for light to very heavy boolits in both .44 mag. and 444 Marlin.

I understand the complaint but there are reasonable solutions that work well enough... then of course there is re-barreling but that is a bit extreme.

Longbow

LB: the reason is because the .44 Magnum in factory loaded ammo is a 35K psi round. The SAAMI Spec for the bore dia is .431+/-.002 for rifles as opposed to .429 +/- .002 for revolvers is there to mitigate pressures. A Revolver has a place to vent gasses IE; the cylinder gap. A Rifle has a closed and locked breech. IE: no place for excess pressure to go but out the barrel.

The Marlin action is good for @43,500 psi and .47K psi is supposed to be blow up. As you know it is not that hard to load a .44 mag case beyond factory loads. So as a CYA move they made the barrels on rifles bigger to reduce pressures.

As you are right about the 1:38 twist being a hold over from the .44-40 and 200 gr boolits. Believe me, many knowledgeable people have been trying to get Marlin to change to 1:20 1: 18 or even a 1:16 twist for years, and they haven't done anything yet. I and other will harass them again this year at SHOT and they will say they are considering it but nothing will happen.

The accepted boolit for the .44 Magnum cartridge is 240-260 gr. That's what it was designed around. I shoot 429421 and 429244 exclusively in my gun and get more than acceptable accuracy. Best group from my 1894 CB with 24" bbl. was 1.75" at 100 yards with a Lyman Receiver Sight and XS Front Sight.

Either of these boolits will go clean thru an Elk in any direction at 900 fps, and they are coming out at 1600+ from the rifle. The whole "Big Secret" to accuracy from these rifles is to run these 250 gr boolits fast enough so the slow rifling stabilizes them. Anything from about 1400 fps on up will work on a 250 gr boolit. And since bigger boolits are not necessary or Elmer would have designed them, the need to run 300+ gr boolits is not really there for anything you'd choose to shoot with one of these guns.

My .02 on this subject.

Randy

[Outpost75]

^^^^^this!^^^^^

[alamogunr]

I've been going thru my molds looking for something to try in the Browning 92 w/1:38 barrel. I found 4 molds that might work if they drop big enough.

RCBS 44-250-K, RCBS 44-250-SWC, RCBS 44-240-SWC and SAECO #442(246 gr. RN). The 3 RCBS molds look to be unused. I suspect I got them off eBay about 20 years ago, before molds went out of sight.

Each of these is 2 cavity iron. I don't remember where I got them and had forgotten I had them. I guess I drank the heavy boolit Kool-Aid.

Now to cast a few from each and hope they aren't undersized.

[longbow]

In my opinion... for what it's worth, Marlin would have been better off to make an action that would withstand the predicted pressures rather than a Mickey Mouse design with oversize groove diameter to vent off pressure. With the materials available today they could have simply used a stronger steel grade and maintained typical .43 mag. (.429") bore dimensions.

Since most of us are probably loading our fat cast boolits to "J" bullet load data for max loads it is likely a mute point as the guns seem to hold up without the ability to "vent".

As for the 1:38" twist, that is just silly. A 1:20" twist wouldn't hurt anything the gun/cartridge does now but would allow use of heavy boolits for those that want them. Just because a guy doesn't need it doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to use it, especially since heavies work in handgun and are commonly used in handgun. After all, no-one really "needs" a 500 gr. or heavier boolit in a .45-70 either but there's lots of boolits and moulds available.

I gave up on trying to get usable accuracy from my 1894 with 300 gr. boolits. I don't "need" it but wanted it and in my penetration testing 300 gr. boolits definitely out penetrated lighter boolits all loaded to max. At subsonic or reduced loads the heavy boolits have their uses I think. It's hard to beat mass. I think metallic silhouette shooters rediscovered that some yeas ago.

I was toying with the idea of a .44 mag wildcat... sort of... by using a long heavy boolit seated out and with long throat to suit. The Gunn design for .45 subsonic use scaled to .434" at about 400 grs. was my choice. Of course that would require a very fast twist likely 1:16" or faster to stabilize. I like big heavy boolits even if they are slow.

Longbow

[Nobade]

I was toying with the idea of a .44 mad wildcat... sort of... by using a long heavy boolit seated out and with long throat to suit. The Gunn design for .45 subsonic use scaled to .434" at about 400 grs. was my choice. Of course that would require a very fast twist likely 1:16" or faster to stabilize. I like big heavy boolits even if they are slow.

Longbow

You should see what a 1894 Marlin will do with the bullets seated out to touch the lands. In my own rifle, the RCBS 240 sil seats with only the gascheck in the case, and with appropriate powders and amounts easily outdoes 445 supermag ballistics and isn't too far from 444 Marlin. Of course it's single shot only and you can't eject a loaded round, but boy does it shoot well and hit hard. And no sight changes needed from 50m to 200m when I use it for cowboy silhouette. That RCBS mould throws at 428" so I size them to .427" and paper patch up to .433". Fits perfectly.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My 24" 1894 CB with the 260 gr 429244 at 1600 fps is dead on at 100M +6 at 150 and +12 at 200. My main use for the gun is Cowboy Sil as well. This gun can out shoot me, so the 1:38 twist barrel is not a handicap, be better if it was 1:20 but it isn't and they have no plans to change it, and Believe me,,, we have came at them from a bunch of different angles every year at SHOT for the last 10 years!.

The reason is that the guns shoot Factory .44's OK and they are not building rifles for use with reloads. In fact no gun maker builds guns for use with Reloads! CYA for sure, but they have it in writing so they are covered. YMMV!.

The reason why Revolvers have 1:20 twist barrels is because of the lower velocity.

On a bright note you can buy a Ruger 77/44 Bolt action carbine that has a 1:20 twist barrel. Only problem with that gun is the loads you use are limited to @1.620 OAL max due to the length of the magazine. You can single load 340's or SWC's and it will shoot them.

My standard load with 429244 runs about 1.680 which shouldn't feed in the Marlin, but does just fine.

Once again put a chamfer on the chamber mouth and it will feed any type of boolit. Simple to do and makes a world of difference.

Marlin ain't gonna change what they are doing for us. If you want something different you'll have to make it.

Brian Pearce had a Marlin SS Take Down .44 Carbine made by David Clay with a 1:16 twist barrel. I have seen the gun and it is sweet. $5500! I have <$700 in my 1894 CB with the Lyman and XS Sights and sling installed. Works just fine, and will take down anything in N/A. His will shoot 340 gr boolits, mine probably won't, but what will know the difference when it gets hit? Nothing?

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I also just got a Mihec 434-640 mould (Group buy that finally showed up) it is a Lyman Devastator Clone and is a round flat nosed design with multiple HP pins.

This mould is good for the Leverguns but I got it for the Ruger 77/44 I have been looking for as it will make the max OAL of 1.610 for that gun.

The easiest way to get you Marlin Levergun to feed any type of boolit is to simply put a .04-.05 chamfer on the chamber mouth so it doesn't dig into the boolit as it is being fed into the chamber. See pic above.

Randy

[Hickory]

Brian Pearce had a Marlin SS Take Down .44 Carbine made by David Clay with a 1:16 twist barrel. I have seen the gun and it is sweet. $5500!

It would be nice if some of these gun scribes would champion what the average hunter-shooter wants, instead of just selling only what gun manufactures have to offer when they write an article.

[cabezaverde]

How do you guys chamfer a chamber mouth?

[alamogunr]

How do you guys chamfer a chamber mouth?

+1 I'm not sure that I trust myself with a Dremel. Heck! I'm sure I don't.

[Outpost75]

How do you guys chamfer a chamber mouth?

In .357 lever-actions I use a 3/8" ball-end mill cutter on an extension handle, using light hand pressure only and Brownell's Do-Drill. This also works on 9mm revolver chambers to break the wire edge on the stop surface to avoid shaving lead using cast bullets. On the .30 Carbine Ruger single-action I use an 8mm ball end mill to accomplish the same thing.

These break the sharp corner of the ball seat entrance at the end of the case prior to origin of rifling.

I misunderstood your question, if you are talking about chamfering the chamber ENTRANCE at the extreme rear end of the chamber ahead of the rim seat, you will need a 12mm ball cutter.

[longbow]

I went through many gyrations of modifying the carrier to get SWC's to feed in my 1894... before Randy posted this gem of info. I wish I had seen it first! Mine now feeds SWC's but I plan to add the chamfer as well since it won't hurt and just may help.

In my case the loaded rounds were tipping so high the meplat was whacking the top edge of the chamber mouth so I don't think the chamfer alone would have fixed it but still a good idea. Every RNFP I tried fed fine but not the Lyman 429421 or the H&G #503.

I tried a countersink but it is a bit too large to fit. I'll have to try my RCBS chamfer tool, hadn't thought of that. Thanks!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB and others, just use a 5/8 countersink on an extension. Turn it by hand as it doesn't take much because the barrels are relatively soft Material. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to do. Don't use a Drill motor and the Dremel needs to stay in it's box!

Where I ran into this was trying to shoot wide Flat Nosed boolits and every time I tried to feed one the top of the chamber would gouge into the edge of the boolit and stop it. I didn't mod the lifter in any way and my gun feeds WFN and SWC rounds as long as 1.690 easily and as fast as you can run the lever.

Randy

[longbow]

Tried my countersink but it's too big. I'll find a smaller one.

[JFE]

While there's no real reason for the slow twist, that's not really a problem. I ran a number of different tests in my B-92 until I cracked the code. Fed the right diameter pills, a 1 in 38" twist will stabilise a 300gr cast bullet. As mentioned previously it's the larger groove diameter of SAAMI rifle specs and the long throat. The throat is approx 0.22" in length and there's no way a round that will feed through the action can have a bullet seated out far enough to reach the rifling. Nothing short of a custom revolver spec barrel and custom throat is going to change that.

Most factory moulds are designed for revolver use. The bullet shapes, bullet diameter and crimp groove placement generally cater for revolver users, not rifle users. TC or RNFP designs work best in rifles.

I tend to use as large a diameter pill that will still cycle and chamber in the rifle. Since we can't seat the bullet forward to reach the rifling, at least a tight fit in the chamber centralizes the bullet in the bore. If you don't do that the cartridge slumps to the bottom of the chamber causing alignment issues.

[ironhead7544]

I use a cast RNFP .433 200 gr bullet and enough Unique for 1330 fps in my 24" 1894 Cowboy 44 Magnum. Very accurate. Smaller diameter bullets did not work well.

I read somewhere that Winchester used the 1 in 38 to get better accuracy at long range in the early 44 rifles.

[Warhawk]

My Browning B92 has aggravated me to no end. The bore is oversize, and it has the ridiculous 1:38 twist. I also have a B92 in 357 that will shoot rings around the 44.

I've had half a dozen Marlins in 44 Magnum, not satisfied with any of them. I currently have a 2006 JM Marlin with Ballard rifling, I hope it will do better. I've also had .357 Marlins (3) and all shot great with no dramatics required.

Note that the same gun in 45 Colt has a 1:20 twist barrel. Henry made a typo on their website for 2018 and said the 44 had a 1:20 twist barrel. I was ready to order one, until I called and they said it was a typo and they were still 1:38.

My most accurate 44 levergun is also the cheapest, a Rossi 92 Trapper. I like it so well I bought a 357 just like it ,and treated both of them to an action job by Steve Young. The Rossi 44 has accounted for a few Texas hogs.

Yesterday my Midway order arrived, I decided to mess with the B92 again and ordered some Speer 210 grain bonded JHPs. If this doesn't work I'm going to look into rebarreling it.

[jstanfield103]

This must be why the New Winchesters 1892 in 44 Mag. are a 1:26 twist ?

[longbow]

I may be behind the times here and while not .44 mag. I see that Marlin has "re-introduced" the 444 and it has 1:20" twist! Maybe there is hope yet that they are listening... a bit anyway.

Of course the 444 should have had a faster twist for sure and then it would truly have been a "modern" .45-70. It runs at higher (than factory loading) .45-70 pressure but was limited by the slow twist and lack of bullet selection. a 444 with 350 to 400 gr. boolits should be pretty much the same on the receiving end as a .45-70 loaded to equal pressure and would offer better performance than typical factory .45-70 ammunition for non-reloaders.

While the 1894 in .44 mag. may not be truly handicapped by the 1:38" twist it certainly wouldn't hurt to increase the twist rate for those that want to shoot heavier boolits. Heavy for caliber cast boolits work well and no good reason I can see for not allowing their use in the rifle whether "necessary" or not. A 1:20' or 1:25" twist wouldn't hurt the 1894 in any way but would allow better long range performance with the heavy boolits available.

After reading about the "new" 444 maybe there is hope yet for the 1894!

Longbow

[Warhawk]

I may be behind the times here and while not .44 mag. I see that Marlin has "re-introduced" the 444 and it has 1:20" twist! Maybe there is hope yet that they are listening... a bit anyway.

Of course the 444 should have had a faster twist for sure and then it would truly have been a "modern" .45-70. It runs at higher (than factory loading) .45-70 pressure but was limited by the slow twist and lack of bullet selection. a 444 with 350 to 400 gr. boolits should be pretty much the same on the receiving end as a .45-70 loaded to equal pressure and would offer better performance than typical factory .45-70 ammunition for non-reloaders.

While the 1894 in .44 mag. may not be truly handicapped by the 1:38" twist it certainly wouldn't hurt to increase the twist rate for those that want to shoot heavier boolits. Heavy for caliber cast boolits work well and no good reason I can see for not allowing their use in the rifle whether "necessary" or not. A 1:20' or 1:25" twist wouldn't hurt the 1894 in any way but would allow better long range performance with the heavy boolits available.

After reading about the "new" 444 maybe there is hope yet for the 1894!

Longbow

The guide gun version of the 444 was the 444P, and had 1:20 twist barrels. Glad to hear Remington is bringing back the 444.

[JFE]

My Browning B92 has aggravated me to no end. The bore is oversize, and it has the ridiculous 1:38 twist. I also have a B92 in 357 that will shoot rings around the 44.

I've had half a dozen Marlins in 44 Magnum, not satisfied with any of them. I currently have a 2006 JM Marlin with Ballard rifling, I hope it will do better. I've also had .357 Marlins (3) and all shot great with no dramatics required.

Note that the same gun in 45 Colt has a 1:20 twist barrel. Henry made a typo on their website for 2018 and said the 44 had a 1:20 twist barrel. I was ready to order one, until I called and they said it was a typo and they were still 1:38.

My most accurate 44 levergun is also the cheapest, a Rossi 92 Trapper. I like it so well I bought a 357 just like it ,and treated both of them to an action job by Steve Young. The Rossi 44 has accounted for a few Texas hogs.

Yesterday my Midway order arrived, I decided to mess with the B92 again and ordered some Speer 210 grain bonded JHPs. If this doesn't work I'm going to look into rebarreling it.

If you don't have the right size moulds, try to buy some GC RNFP pills that are 0.433-0.434 in diameter. I think you will be happy with the groups. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I've been able to get decent groups using 300gr cast bullets out of my Browning. It was only when I tried pills that were around 345gr that I saw signs of yaw on the target, so the 1 in 38" twist will work with any sensible weight in a 44 mag.

[longbow]

I didn't realize their 444 guide gun had faster twist. That should stabilize a 400+ gr. boolit. That should make it more or less equivalent to a .45-70 or certainly as good or better than .45-70 factory loads.

I always liked the 444 but went with .45-70 because brass was cheaper and easier to find. Not many 444's here but lots of .45-70's. That and the slow twist put me off.

As for my 1:38" twist 1894, I've been told they will stabilize the right type of 300 gr. boolit ~ WFn style, and Ranch Dog says his 300 grain design is stable. So, yes, I guess it can be done but a faster twist wouldn't hurt anything either.

And +1 on JFE's comment on boolit diameter. The SAAMI rifle spec has larger groove diameter than handgun spec. Rifle is 0.431" so fat boolits are required to seal and produce decent accuracy. Same should apply to .444.

Longbow

[ReloaderFred]

There's a small difference in the SAAMI bore diameter specs for the .44 Magnum and .444 Marlin in rifles. The .44 Magnum is .431" and the .444 Marlin is .430".

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf#page=13

Hope this helps.

Fred

[longbow]

It makes one wonder doesn't it!?!

Why three different groove diameters to shoot the same bullets? Not sure what SAAMI was thinking there. The slow twist in the .44 mag. and 444 rifles is bad enough but having the fat groove diameter and yet still different is a real mystery. According to Randy the extra windage in the .44 mag. is to vent off pressure and that may be true but it makes no sense to me at all because the gun should be designed for the cartridge pressure plus that really only applies to factory loaded rounds. With cast boolits what do we do" We size to suit the groove diameter we have so no venting of pressure. I haven't heard of .44 mag. rifles coming apart frequently due to use of cast boolits not allowing excess pressure to vent around them.

Hmmmm... now I have to question Randy's logic too looking at the SAAMI spec again. For .44 mag. rifle they call up a 0.432" bullet. No extra windage for venting there! That only works with an undersize bullet. Also, I note that in the SAAMI spec for .44 mag. handgun that they spec a 0.432" lead bullet!

In the case of the 444 it is a different cartridge entirely but it was designed to shoot the same bullets so... should be the same groove diameter.

Again, the 1:38" twist seems like an odd choice since a faster twist is used in about every other gun except the .44-40 and the .44-40 wasn't designed for very heavy bullets.

Oh well!

[gunther]

A question: Where are the best places to find the .433 molds, and .433 lyman design sizer dies to properly feed a .44 Marlin ?

[Nobade]

A question: Where are the best places to find the .433 molds, and .433 lyman design sizer dies to properly feed a .44 Marlin ?Accurate molds of course. You can have whatever diameter you want. NOE has some good ones also.

[winelover]

Track of the Wolf, carries oversize H & I style sizer dies. I know they had .432, not sure about .433 diameter. I purchased mine from CB member Buckshot. However, he's no longer making them.

Winelover

[gunther]

winelover: Track of the Wolf doesn't list custom sizers, but Buffalo Arms does. The .432 and.432 are currently out of stock.

[gunther]

MY mistake. Track of the Wolf has lyman-type sizer dies from .432 to .437, inclusive. The .433 is the only one currently out of stock They also have Saeco design sizer dies in .432, .433, and .434.

[gunther]

winelover: Track of the Wolf doesn't list custom sizers, but Buffalo Arms does. The .433 is currently out of stock.

[Outpost75]

I have had DougGuy hone sizer bullet sizer dies for me to match the cylinder he was doing at the same time.

[longbow]

My recent .44 moulds are Accurate, and Mihec but Mihec is group buys only. Accurate will make what you want when you want and as Nobade said, NOE has some good moulds as well and they are stock for the most part.

[Savvy Jack]

233906

:redneck:

[Warhawk]

233906

:redneck:

Who did that for you?

[Savvy Jack]

Who did that for you?

That is a 1 1/4" Dia, 20" MGM 44-40 barrel with a 1-20" Twist https://matchgrademachine.com/
7 Shot, 3" Groups 240gr SWC's @ 100 yards

1 shot way high, adjusted scope. 2 Shots top of target, readjusted again. First time I used the scope on this thing at 100 yards.
233907
17,610 psi load
NOT FOR 73's AND REVOLVERS

233908

I wonder if guys would slow down those 44 Mag rifle loads if they would group better with the 1-38" twist.

[Savvy Jack]

My 44-40 Marlin 1894CB with I assume a 1-38" twist.
I told Outpost75 what the twist was at one time but I forgot...memory of a gold fish!

As good as I can get with a 1-38" twist

20 shots, 4" Groups @ 100 Yards, 210gr JSC
233909

15 Shots, 4" Groups @ 100 Yards, 240gr SWC
233910

30 shots, 18" x 18". Would be 40 but I made a sight adjustment after the first ten (low). Technically 40 shots inside 18" x 18" @ 265 Yards Replicating the Winchester 1866 300 paces shots during the Switzerland Test Trials in 1866.
233911


233913

...and Doc Pardee's 30 shot, 4" group @ 110 yards in 1873...with the black powder loads
233914

[W.R.Buchanan]

Hmmmm... now I have to question Randy's logic too looking at the SAAMI spec again. For .44 mag. rifle they call up a 0.432" bullet. No extra windage for venting there! That only works with an undersize bullet. Also, I note that in the SAAMI spec for .44 mag. handgun that they spec a 0.432" lead bullet!
Oh well!

LB: The larger bore isn't there to "Vent" Pressure. It is there to lower pressure by causing less friction/resistance in the barrel with "factory ammo."

The fact we load larger boolits is not an issue for Marlin. They are only concerned how factory ammo works in their guns. We are (generally speaking) somewhat more knowledgeable than the average fool who shoots guns, and we probably represent 10% of their sales so they probably don't care much about our wishes even though they would improve the product . But making a change of this magnitude in a shop the size of Remington's literally takes an act of God. And God hasn't seen fit to grant us this relatively small favor.

Like I said,,, the Ruger 77/44 has a 1:20 twist barrel so there is a place to go and those little guns really cool ! I want one so I can put a TRS 25 on it and have a real neat little Bolt Action Carbine for ,,, You guessed it,,, Wild Boar Fever!

The whole secret to getting these guns to shoot is simply running the boolits fast enough to stabilize. My 260 gr 429244 GC's with 22 gr of H110 are way above where that bullet needs to fly true. I could just as easily run 24.0 gr of H110 and probably pick up another 100 fps, but why? There's nothing to be gained.

Someone mentioned shallow grooves? They are .004 deep on a side and virtually every modern gun known to man has grooves that are .003-.005 deep. nothing wrong here.

Randy

[longbow]

Sorry Randy I misread or misinterpreted your comment about reducing pressure due to large groove diameter. Still, I think that is a silly idea. The gun should be built for the service.

Even if pressure/strength/friction aren't issues the fact that the handguns and rifles have different groove dimensions is just plain wrong. They shoot the same ammunition so why would Marlin do that? Or was it SAAMI?

Makes no sense to me anyway.

This is not the same situation as .45 cal. handguns and rifles having different bore dimensions. Those developed differently and wound up being different by a few thou. With .44 mag. the ammunition is the same and the rifle barrels should have been made to same dimensions as the handgun barrels. The twist... well that's a different story and while I'd like the ability to shoot heavier boolits should I so choose, my microgroove 1:38" twist barrel does quite well with properly sized cast boolits up to about 270 grs. Mind you I have not shot those out to 200 yards yet. My old 265 gr.s RNFP's from my home made mould did okay out to 200 yards though which is good enough for me.

You are right in that I really do not need to shoot heavier boolits and that likely applies to most others. However, again, since the handguns will stabilize the heavies, there is no good reason the rifles shouldn't. In fact, it should really be the other way around ~ the rifles should handle the heavy stuff that may not fit or stabilize in the handgun... in my opinion anyway but we know what that's worth.

All in all I like my Marlin and it does what it is supposed to do. It wasn't many years ago that this wouldn't even have been a discussion then along came Garrett and others with BIG boolits!

Actually I have no interest in the Ruger 77/44. Not sure why but they never did anything for me. Nothing against Ruger but that gun doesn't turn my crank. A #1 or preferably a #3 in .44 mag. I would like. Again, don't ask why but I like the Ruger #3 and in .44 mag. I think it would be a nice gun. Go figure!

Longbow

[curioushooter]

To answer the op...because Marlin probably assumed the only folks interested would be CAS using specials with short bullets.

[Conditor22]

noe has .432 thru .434 push thru sizer Body Bushing (B434)