Patterning my shotguns

[PatMarlin]

I'm going to start a long thread here, so I can separate pictures and put things in order.

I've never really tried to pattern shotguns semi methodically, so this is my first attempt. Don't know much about them really.

My goal is to come up with the best turkey slayer out of what I have here at home, and any suggestions on improvements would be greatly appreciated.



I came up with the idea for targets using brown shipping paper and a round 30" disk for a stencil. I screwed a piece of plywood on my target stump, then stapled on 2 pieces of paper.

Cut a 30" disk out of a plastic realestate sign and screwed the disk on dead center, then spray painted the outline as shown with cheap black paint. I took the disk off, then sprayed the screw hole to give me a center dot.

This works pretty slick. It's fast and easy, and cheap. White butcher paper would be better.

The range is a tic under 35yds. I was to lazy to set up at 40.

[PatMarlin]

News paper would work just as well, but I want to be able to take pics of the patterns and have them show up on camera which is not easy on a cheapo.

I bought the easy up 12x12 on sale at Big 5 for $79. Couldn't pass that up for a shooting cover to get out of the rain. It's been off and on all day.

[PatMarlin]

Starting with my Lyman deerstalker 20 bore. I know you guys that are BP "purists" have emotional problems with any other types of BP rifles. I really don't care about that. I'm just trying to learn something about patterning.

This Lyman has been modified obviously to 20 bore. I added a TC peep sight and it has been bedded. I refinished the stock and it is just a plain fun nice handling rifle.

The first load I used was 70grs of Triple 7 FG and same vol of #8 shot. The pattern was similar to the pic below.

I moved up to 90grs (shown) with equal volume of #8. This was at 35yds. The pics did not come out very well, but the shot seems spread out a bit. I don't know if it's good enough for turkeys, or other birds but this is what I'm asking with all my patterns.

Can a screw choke set can be installed on this rifle?

[PatMarlin]

Up next is the evil inline Knight K2000 12ga. Full choke.

I bought this brand new for $200 shipped and they are retailing for $395 now. Handles very nice. I converted the expensive shotgun primer cup that requires their plastic insert (hate plastic insert stuff) with a 11 primer cap nipple. Works very well so far.

Man this thing kicked like a mule! The manual said to start at 100grns 777 which I did with equal amount of #8 shot, and holy cow my shoulder whasn't ready for that one. I put on a pad after that shot.. :mrgreen:

The pics are getting better. The pattern was denser than the 20bore. Will this do the job well for gobblers yet?

Today I was thinking about using a lighter load with more shot. The book mentioned you could load as much as 2 1/2 ounces. What do you think?

[35remington]

My comments have to do with just when to draw the circle.

Not all shotguns throw to exact point of aim, and squinting over the vent rib at an inanimate target isn't the same as shooting at a moving one, so point of impact differences exist.

First, shoot the pattern. Then, analyze where the center of impact is......it will most often not be in the center of the pre-drawn 30 inch circle.

After shooting, THEN draw the 30 inch circle. You will acount for point of impact variations, account for the correct center of impact, and the 30 inch circle will be drawn in the right place.

Also, include a smaller 20 inch circle in the center to evaluate core density and fringe density in the 30 inch circle.

I use heavy sheet cardboard as backing and sometimes as the pattern target, well supported by a ridgid framework that doesn't bend with the wind. I write all pertinent data on the pattern target, including core density, outer ring density, load, and any mathematical calculations I might make to review later.

I think, if you are loading 2.5 ounces of shot that you'll have a hard time finding a wad where the entire shot weight is contained entirely within the wad. Most are too short. Maybe Ballistic Products have a proper wad column for such large charges.

[waksupi]

Pat, I can't make out the patterns real well. However, look for the one with the fewest "holes" in the pattern. That is what you are looking for.

[35remington]

Let me caution you about turning in the collet as far as it will go. In some cases the diameter has been so small that LARGE bits of the wad (this was a Winchester WAA12R that I happened to be using with some 11/2 ounce loads using Winchester 571) remained stuck in the choke - somehow wedging in the collet "fingers". I didn't expect that, but at least I looked after shooting.

Enough protruded that the next shot charge would likely snag on the wad, with trauma to the choke. My brother had a Mossberg 20 bolt action that he death grip choked down, and managed to shoot the choke off the barrel with one of his succeeding shots despite the fact that it was threaded on. Went about twenty feet and was left lying in the road. He hadn't checked the barrel after previous shots and this is likely what had happened.

If you give your collet the death grip, check after shooting to be sure no wad material is lodged in the collet choke with your chosen ammo. If it clears, you're fine, but the overchoke might open patterns rather than tighten them. You'll find out with patterning results.

This wad capture with the overchoking is most likely to happen with standard wads and shotcups. The cardboard filler wads and shot wrappers of, say, Winchester Super X ammo are unlikely to stick in the choke even when overdone.

[longbow]

Pat:

I'm no shotgun expert nor pro turkey hunter so I did some research to see what I should be doing. The advice I have seen in articles is that to be effective on turkeys the goal is 100+ pellets in a 10" circle at the range you are shooting with 40 yards as the max. range.

Here are some sites I found:

For cartridge guns:

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_103526.asp

This one is all about patterning:

http://www.hunter-ed.com/id/course/ch2_shotgun_choke_shot_pattern.htm

Chapter 2 shows different patterns from different chokes.

Also, there is a good section on shotgun patterning in the Lyman Shotgun Reloading Manual.

For the front stuffers it is probably hard to go wrong with the article by V. M. Starr that is posted in the Muzzleloading forum (I wish I had this article when I had my side x 12 ga. percussion shotgun):

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=2605

Also, some muzzleloading turkey load info from Danny Caywood:

http://www.caywoodguns.com/working_up_turkey_loads_for_opti.htm

I'm using cartridge shotgun but with fixed full choke 0.680", not a true turkey extra full choke, so have checked patterns and feel I need to be closer than 40 yards to get the required shot density. So far I haven't gotten a shot at a turkey. Our seasons just opened a couple of years ago.

I was supposed to be out this weekend but the water pump on my truck packed it in! Hopefully next weekend.

Longbow

[rmb721]

The best choke tube I have found for the Remington shotguns that I have is the Hunter's Specialties, The UnderTaker, super full choke tube, .665 ID, Model 00660. This is not for steel shot or Hevi-Shot.

I use #4 copper plated buffered shotshells (Federal Premium) The only shot I would consider for turkeys is #4, #5, or #6 and in that order.

[PatMarlin]

Thanks for the great help with the info everybody. I will work on it.

I'm using the Starr technique right now, and it's working well.

[northmn]

As to shotgun patterning and loads. Two things to look for. Does the shotgun shoot where it is pointed when you shoot at something and are there any big holes in a pattern. I will not comment too much on the Knight manual claiming the use of up to 2 1/2 ounces in a 12 bore and the mentality of the individual that mentioned it in a light weight shotgun as the person is obviously challenged and political correctness prohibits the names I can think of. Tom Roster found that a 12 bore could pattern at its tightest with up to 1 1/2 ounce of shot. I loaded a few three inch at that level and can agree. My experiences which are extensive with a 20 bore is that 1 1/8 will perform as well as can be expected. I am talking about the number of pellets in a usable pattern. My experience is that of wing shooting. Turkey loads are low pressure loads of modest velocity and do not account for shot stringing. (Shot patterns are 3 dimensional, as compare to rifle groups of 2 dimensions, see Brister's "Shotgunning the Art and Science" ) Also you need to pattern with what you plan to use. If you plan to shoot 4' or 5's at turkeys, patterns with 8's are worthless. I have owned shotguns that will shoot one size shot perfectley and another poorly with a lot of clustering. Common BP loads used by market hunters were 1 to 1 1/8 ounce in a 12 and 1 1/4 in a 10.

Northmn

[PatMarlin]

Thanks for those links Longbow.

I also just stumbled on some great shot pattern info in one of my old Lymans reloading books. Thing with the net is, now it seems like it's the first place I start looking when I have an incredible library of books here, and I forget what I have.

I find the shotgun shooting/patterning interesting, and therapeutic specially with BP. I wish I had more sizes of shot, as all I have is the 8. Maybe I can find time to build a shotmaker this winter.

Defintely seems like an "Art and Science".

[northmn]

BP shotguns are fun. I shoot mostly flintlock in a front loader (Just more or less finished a fowler) anymore and use a double hammer cartridge shotgun for my percussion as I have found little difference. A few pointers. Plastic wads have a reputation for coating the bore of a ML and some use a card wad between them and the powder. A little lube such as Crisco also helps. You can load a Ml with paper or plastic shot protectors by using a short starter and adding shot close to the muzzle then an overshot wad and seating the whole thing. Steel can be loaded in that manner but shot wads have to have more cuts and deeper cuts or they can shoot like slugs. Some lead shot will do that with certain cups. Others use a little more powder to open up the cups. Good patterns start with good shot. For turkey loads I would buy nickel plated shot as that will pattern the tightest. It was developed for the big money live pigeon shoots. I have used nickel 7's on pheasants with very good results out of a 16 ga. with 1 oz of shot and driven at 1400 fps.
The jokes in modern shotshell development are the 3 inch 410, the 3 inch 20 with a 1 1/4 oz load and the 3" 12 with 1 7/8 oz of shot. The 3.5 inch 12 was developed for steel and does not add anything for lead. All have long shot columns, and poor cushoning. The bottom pellets in a shot column start moving first and push up against the top pellets. In a long column they deform so bad that they fly way off or cannot keep up to the rounder top pellets. Hence some have photographed shot strings as long as 20 feet at 40 yards. Hard shot and plated shot help some and steel does not deform (also some of the hard tungston alloys). They used to preach "square loads" (a shot column no deeper than the bore diameter) with the old soft shot. You can beat it some with hard shot but not a lot. In my 16 the 1 1/8 oz "express" load works very well with plated shot as did the 20 3 inch with 1 1/8 oz. The 1 oz load in the 16 is more effective than the 1 oz load in the 20 Express load. The English used this principle in their "Best guns" by using light weight 12's with short chambers and loads of 1 oz to 1 1/16 oz. (The English believed that the shot weight should not exceed 1/96 of the gun wieght, 1 oz for a 6 pound gun. They also would only guarantee a pattern for one load). Hopefully this will help you as a quick primer.

Northmn

[PatMarlin]

Thanks Northmn-

A lot of what you posted above, was mirrored by Sam Fadala as I was read his BP book last night.

I'm going to try throttling back on the powder too. I'm gonna see if someone in town has 4-6 shot I can use.

You know nickle plating is not hard to do with electro plating. You plate it copper first. I used to do that a long time ago. A homeade shotmaker and plating system would be the ticket.

[PatMarlin]

Well more pattern work today and I think I have the best I can do with #8 lead shot and all of the rifles.

It's the Knight K-2000 12ga with 120gr (by Volume) of #8 shot over 90gr of 777 and a #11 cap. I punched wads out of regular box perforated cardboard, and put 2 over the charge and 1 over the shot.

It produces the tightest group I've been able to work up at 35yrds with 112 shot in a 10" circle. I think I have dead turkey possibilites... :mrgreen:

Now if I could just get my hands on some 4-5-or 6 shot to try.

[PatMarlin]

The Triple seven seems to be working well. No crude ring with an even dispursed fouling shown down the barrel.

It melts with water, and just doesn't put up a bit of fuss.

Towards the end of the day I noticed a little inconsistancy of my shots with a few showing up a little high, but I think it was my shooting. At $17.50 per jug at Powder Valley I may consider buying more.

Need to do more solid boolit experiments first through.

[northmn]

One of the things I have done to test shot and get the no-tox stuff is to buy a box of shells and dismantle. I ususally cut through at he wad level and pour out the shot. This permits a less expensive way to try out shot. While you have found a good pattern with card wads, one of the reasons some like fiber wads is that they can be lubed to keep fouling soft for a trap match or testing, not so important for hunting. All sorts of alchemy has been tried but water works pretty well as does spitting on the fiber wad before seating. Whether modern or ML, each barrel is a rule onto itself. Some have even come up with different loads for each barrel of a double. Good shooting, have fun.

Northmn

[Vintage BPCS]

You are dealing with two issues, 1st modern cartridge stuffers, and 2nd B/P front stuffers. On the first from my experience each gun will tend to like a different load combination. With regards to patterning technique I treat sighting for turkey like aiming a rifle and look for the tightest pattern at a point of aim (the head), as compared to upland/waterfowl as instinctive point and pass and look for the fullest group in an broad area (30"circle). I have found that turkey loads from Winchester, 3", copper plated, # 6 in the Rem 870 and #5 in the Mossberg 500 both with extra full chokes are the best. Federal #6 came in 2nd. Anything larger than #6 did not provide a minimum of 10% of the shot count in the head (bulls eye area).
2nd the front stuffers are a whole new ball game for which I have the most expertise. I must agree with a prior reply, do not use plastic wads over B/P or the substitutes. It will cause fowling problems and gets very hard to clean out. Absolutely no plastic. The components of a load are powder, over powder card, cushion wad, over cushion wad (optional), shot, over shot card. Your B/P guns do not appear to be the type to have chokes thus are cylinder bore, which will limit your effective pattern to a max of 25 yds. Beyond this, the patterns will most definitely be blowing out. On to components, I would not use the pelletized powders, they do not allow you the leeway to fine tune the load as you work it up. Once you know what the load is you can substitute for each component while holding all other components unchanged and see the result. Over card wads come in various thicknesses I use a 0.025 for over powder and shot and the 0.050 cushion. I soak my cushion wad in water soluble oil and leave to dry out prior to hunting use. The shot is a whole worm unto itself. I prefer #6 chilled, (#6 copper plated in my guns which can shoot steel). I want as much shoot on target as I can get in that 25 yds and alter the other components to tighten the pattern. I prefer B/P some where between 75 to 90 gr depending on the gauge. Thin card cushion wad, 1 1/8 oz shot and thin card. I would pick a load and fire at a preset distance (25 yd) . Swab the gun, reload an identical round and move forward 12 feet, and fire on to a clean target. Repeat this process moving forward and backwards to find the sweet spot. then change any component you think will effect the pattern. Do the same procedure. At some point you will find your optimum distance and load. At which point you will need to adjust your hunting style to bag that turkey with the smoke pole. Remember more is not necessarily better.
DB