How do you work with shorter than trim to case lengths

[greenjoytj]

About straight walled revolver cases, all my load manuals show a “trim to case length” which I believe is the case length used in their published load recipes.

I reload 45 Colt, 38 Special and 357 Magnum. My problem is I’m lucky if I get 5 cases at or over the “trim to length” out of the whole 100 case bag. Most cases are up to 9 thou shorter that the trim to length. There are a very few that are over the trim to length.

So far I’ve been dealing with the bullet seating by eye, by making small adjustments to the micrometer seating stem on the bullet seater die to get the case mouth at the crimp spot. This custom adjustment on each case makes the whole bullet seating step rather slow and tedious. It would be nice if these cases grew on firing/resizing like bottle neck rifle cases.

I could just trim back all cases to match the shortest case in the bag, but that will alter the pressures from the load manual.

How should I deal with miss matched case lengths?

[ioon44]

I trim all the cases to the shortest case length to get the same roll crimp. As with any change to a reloading component you should go the starting load and work up the load.

As far as loading manuals, is your gun the same gun and barrel length as the one the used for the loading manual?

[LenH]

I have been loading and casting for nearly 40 years. I used to worry about case length in pistol/revolver brass. The old guy who taught me all those years ago
told me to quit worrying about it. I was in my teens at the time and he told me that unless you are shooting loads in the max. limits that the brass will not grow
that much. I have .45 Colt cases that are nearly 40 years old and have only been in the trimmer once. Those old brass are shot until they split.

I don't shoot .45 Colt as much as I used to but they are still worth shooting. I haven't checked the case length on those in a long time.


Now bottle neck rifle brass, that is a different matter.

[sigep1764]

I actually just ran into the same issue. Im new to reloading 38 special and found all my brass is below the trim to length. Found the shortest of a hundred cases and stuck it in the trimmer to set the cut length. The rest of the cases were barely kissed by the trimmer but are all a consistent length now. I don't shoot anywhere near max loads with this old Colt so the brass shouldn't grow appreciably.

[ShooterAZ]

I don't trim pistol cases. My observation is that most don't stretch much at all, in fact, some of them actually shrink in length.

[44MAG#1]

.009"??? Trim away if you like. I would load away myself.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

[Mal Paso]

.010 of variation in the 100 bag of cases is too much. Back when I used range pickup I would trim to the shortest good case. I buy cases direct from Starline now and total variation is like .001". A wildfire got most of the old brass and the trimmer and people just don't leave 44 Mag brass like they used to. Anyway for pistols the brass manufacturers should do all the trimming and it should be within .001" either way.

[lightman]

With a revolver and a roll crimp I would trim all of them to match the shortest one. That will probably be the last time that you will ever need to trim. They just do not stretch like bottle neck cases do. In an auto with a taper crimp I would load and shoot them. Unless I was a Master class bullseye shooter competing at the higher levels. Which I'm not!

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I trim to shortest case in most calibers, rifle or pistol, for rifle I measure chamber length and trim accordingly, most are .010" to .025" longer than 'book' trim lengths. Haven't trimmed 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP using light taper crimp. I do start with a lot of new brass and keep lots separate based on make and times fired. Handgun brass really doesn't stretch much, if at all.

[Wheelguns 1961]

I have found that the cases on import ammo runs on the short side. I don’t know if is a metric thing or what. When I get new from starline, they usually run somewhere between the trim length and the max length.

[JSH]

Go with a tight tolerance gun and you will have issue as far as crimp causing a bulge in the case because it is not in the crimp groove.

[243winxb]

Look up the minimum trim length at SAAMI. It may be different then what you think.

[Bazoo]

greenjoytj, From the sounds of it, you're buying new cases. If you're not already doing so, you should resize the cases before trimming and loading the first time.

I've bought some starline 44 mag cases, and upon measuring them, found them to be too short. I resized them, and that stretched them a few thousands. A couple, I ran through the sizer several times to get them to stretch.

If it was new brass, say starline, remington or winchester, hornady, I'd complain. See if they'd make it right. If they wont do anything. Then i'd do one of 2 things. I'd either settle on trimming everything in that caliber .015 shorter than max, or i'd trade the brass off and get more.

What I do with used brass, is trim them all .010 shorter than max length. Any that I find that are shorter get put aside. If its .001 or .002 thousands, i'll go ahead and put it in the batch as this isnt enough to affect my crimp. Anything shorter gets put in the trash or the trade bag.

I will keep an eye on the cases after firing and sizing a few times to see if any are stretching, or shrinking or staying the same. Most of the time, i've found that a few shrink a few thousands, a few stretch a few thousands, and most stay right at the same. My general rule is, .002 short, or .001 long gets ignored, any longer gets trimmed, any shorter gets set aside. Kinda pends on the mood im in what i'll let go though.

I dont see how folks that dont trim revolver brass have any consistency of crimp or ballistic uniformity.

Like lightman, I trim revolver cases that get a roll crimp, and generally dont trim auto cases that get a taper crimp. I set the crimp by measuring some, and finding the shortest one, set the crimp to just barely remove the flare and ad a tiny bit of crimp, then anything longer will get a crimp, and all of them will feed.

[skeettx]

Trim??
I shoot light loads in most guns so not an issue with crimping.
If I need a hot 38 I go to 357, if I need a hot 357 I go to 41 Mag
If I need a hot 41 Mag I go to 45 Colt, and if I need a hot 45 Colt
I go to 44 Mag. and those hot ones are rarely used and crimped.

In auto guns, same thing and they are taper crimped so even less
of an issue.

Mike

[country gent]

For conistancy I trim to the shortest length, you need the same length and square case mouths to produce good crimps and the most accurate ammo.

[PJEagle]

I size new revolver brass and then trim to .0015" less than the published trim to length. Anything shorter gets placed in a separate container to be trimmed to the minimum SAAMMI trim length. Then I only have two different roll crimp settings to keep track of. In my case, new brass for auto's is what it is; it doesn't get as much respect.

[robg]

I just load straight cases till they split ,tried trimming didn't notice any difference in accuracy and they never seemed to lengthen enough to trim .I'm lazy so I stopped trimming them.

[sniper]

About straight walled revolver cases, all my load manuals show a “trim to case length” which I believe is the case length used in their published load recipes.

I reload 45 Colt, 38 Special and 357 Magnum. My problem is I’m lucky if I get 5 cases at or over the “trim to length” out of the whole 100 case bag. Most cases are up to 9 thou shorter that the trim to length. There are a very few that are over the trim to length.


I could just trim back all cases to match the shortest case in the bag, but that will alter the pressures from the load manual.

How should I deal with miss matched case lengths?

Starline brass, right? :sad: I had the same problem with a couple of batches with over and under-length 357 Magnum brass.

Inquired of Starline, and got a huffy email from Herr Standartenfuehrer of Customer Service, that SAAMI "allows a +- .010 variance", and they'd be happy to replace all cases outside those parameters. Of course, none were. Ah, well, won the battle, but definitely lost the war! Hopefully, they have corrected the problem.
My shooting isn't good enough to take advantage of utmost precision, soooo... I decided since a couple of thousandths is not much in the real world, and lots of knowledgeable people say they don't ever trim revolver/pistol cases, I'll trim what I can,:-? use those that are within .002 shorter than recommended trim-to, and set my crimp die somewhere in the middle, or use my taper crimp die, and don't worry. After all, except for competitors, this is supposed to be fun/relaxing/enjoyable, right?:cool:

[44MAG#1]

The KISS principle is what I have used for at least 48 years. While I may seperate brass by brand to keep the crimp the same as possible not that it really matters but I do it.
Slight variation in crimp length will cause No Worthwhile Differnce.
When one considers the other variables such as changes in lot numbers in primers and powder, temperature ETC. you will see what I am saying.
Since most of you guys like to experiment profusely one way to prove the minute difference in case length among one brand of brass is to do this, trim some cases and work up a good load using the trimmed brass.
Take a good sample of the brass that hasnt been uniformed and load the same load in it and try it for accuracy. Now lets say the trimmed brass is somewhat more accurate. Take the trimmed sample and the untrimmed sample and load them again using your good load, take them to the range and shoot a cylinder or magazine full each standing, kneeling, ETC. not using a dead steady rest. Measure the groups that were obtained in the less than dead steady rest situation, measure the groups get the average and see if you are good enough in field shooting situations to tell the difference between trimmed and untrimmed brass. I hope you are good enough but reality can be an ugly thing and I would say that you and a whole host of shooters on here aren't.
Wallet groups are good to show and brag about but in reality doesnt in and of themselves mean much in the real world of field shooting. I have seen to much of the brenchrest wallet group shooters that severely had a problem when up and off the bench. And Ive seen that reality with my own eyes. One was a good friend.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

[USSR]

Trim straight walled revolver cases? Hear that sound? That's a whole bunch of 'ol time reloaders laughing.:-P

Don

[RogerDat]

Trim to shortest or size to stretch. I only need to do straight walled once to have consistent crimps for the life of the brass. This is mostly range P/U or used, but new also every once in a while. I use an inexpensive caliper as a go no-go gauge. I can tolerate a bit of variation in the roll crimp without it making a difference, I'm not so accurate a shot that it will matter. I just don't like crimps that are above the groove, below the groove, and in the groove. Top, bottom, or middle of groove itself is fine with me.

I guess a few powders that are more dependent on pressure for good burn it might make more of a difference.

[Walks]

In olden times when we had only 3 American ammo companies that made brass. It was all pretty uniform. The once fired rifle brass all needed to be trimmed on first reloading.
Handgun brass was different. The only cases that grew were repeated full power loadings of .357Mag, .41Mag and .44Mag. When you load stuff so hot that It's not even close to what's in the Manuals today.
I trimmed those cases usually every other loading.
There were no TAPER CRIMP DIE'S back in those days.
Roll Crimps needed a uniform length for a uniform crimp in a revolver case. Too long and the case bulged, too short and the bullets pulled out of their cases under recoil.

.454 Casull was the worst. Tolerances were so tight in a Casull cylinder that you had to trim cases to minimum, And crimp at the top edge of the bullets crimp groove.
Else the bullets would protrude from the cylinder, trying up the bullets on the forcing cone.
At the other end you needed to have a supply of cotton swabs to keep the rim recesses clean. I had to turn down the expander ball to .447 to get a tight enough bullet pull. .45 ACP TAPER CRIMP DIE'S were around by 1987, so by then keeping bullets crimped in their cases wasn't as hard.

Today things are Very different. There are many different makers of brass cases, most seem to go in and out of business just long enough to get their product into general circulation. Just like a lot of the small ammo companies.

The quality of brass has suffered. Some is long or short, shorter and shortest. Never any inconsistency. And some is so hard you have to practically stand on the press handle to size a .44MAG case in a T/C die.

If brass is too hard it doesn't seal the chamber, so It's not doing it's job.

I know just about everyone in enamoured of a certain brand of brass. It's less expensive then just about every brand. So low price breeds popularity.

I tried some .45-2.6 for making .40-82WCF, I had to anneal every case.
New brass that has to be annealed before first use. Something is wrong with the manufacturing process if that is the case.

I've since found out from a VERY reliable industry source, that said manufacturer DOES NOT anneal their brass.

So even though it is more expensive, I buy REMINGTON or WINCHESTER. Federal's ok too
They have worked well for me, My DAD, and MY Grandfather.

Of course This is just one Man's opinion. And 60+yrs experience.

[DangerousDave]

I have reloaded tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds of pistol cartridges over 40+ years and never found the need to trim any of them yet. Waste of time in my humble opinion.

[trapper9260]

For me if the ones gose in wheel guns is not over max and not below the min.I let it alone and load. If below I will see about to load with a different load that I come up with. As for pistol I have only for now 9mm and 32acp. I do not bother with 32acp to trim or anything. For 9mm if it is below the min .I will use them in a wheel gun that I got just for that and any other 9mm round and light loads. As for the 32 acp for what is not right for the pistol I use in my 327 .It all works for me.as for rifle that is different

[243winxb]

Revolvers- SAAMI trim length is maximum minus .020"
A variation of .005" between cases , should fit in most crimp grooves.

If the variation in trim length is over the .005" and brass is to short to trim, buy a taper crimp die.

Neck tension holds the bullet and keeps it from moving, for the most part.

[gwpercle]

When I was new I trimmed them but slowly discoved it a waste of time ...unless you shooting for money.
I haven't trimmed a straight wall (or even the tapered 9mm luger ) in about 30 years.
See post #20 :drinks:

Gary

[dverna]

I have reloaded tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds of pistol cartridges over 40+ years and never found the need to trim any of them yet. Waste of time in my humble opinion.

My experience mirrors yours. Just a few days ago, I reloaded 300 .38 cases and most were over 40 years old....never trimmed...but I only load mid-range. But I never trimmed full power 9mm or .45’s either. I have not loaded maximum loads in .357 or .44 Mag so cannot comment on those.

[Tom W.]

Once, a pretty long time ago, I has some stomach surgery that left me as weak as water and bored silly. I couldn't even pick up my rifle without it hurting really bad. Sooooo...... I decided that I was going to trim all of my .44 Mag revolver brass to minimum length.

I have never been that bored since....

[beagle]

One of the worst calibers I have ever dealt with as far as cartridge length is the .30 Carbine in the Ruger Blackhawk. Both military and commercial bras is all over the spectrum as far as length is concerned and it makes a big difference as this cartridge headspaces on the case mouth in the Blackhawk.

I sat down and measured a bunch of cases and recorded the extremely short cases. I then settled on a length that was below "trim to" length that I could live with , trimmed and loaded a box and they did all right. I have one of the Forster drill press trimmers and ran the whole batch through that and from then had no problems.
.30/30s drove me nuts as once fired cares are all over the place as well. This tends to really mess things up when crimping. I trimmed to "trim to length" and set my die to that. Crimping was accomplished by screwing the seating dies in and out as needed due to the feel and that resulted in good crimps and no buckled necks.
Trimming to me is only to achieve good crimps. The remainder don't matter in pistol calibers so much but in rifle calibers, the .222 Remington and .220 Swift tend to grow on you and the pressures in the Swift mount up quick. Had a friend using a Swift once and he was having problems with primers. He was loading hot and was getting automatic de-priming with every shot. A friend had a set of calipers in his box and we measured some cases. Way long. We helped the old boy and pulled that batch and trimmed and next week, things went back to normal.
I might take the time to sit and trim .38 Special cases for wadcutter loads if I'm loading a bunch to my "match" specifications but other than that, I leave pistol calibers alone./beagle

[dverna]

Beagle,

Star used to offer a taper crimp die for .38 to address the need to worry about slight case length variations on match ammunition.