Expansion Dies verses Lee Universal Expanders

[John Boy]

Instead of using M-Dies or Expander Plugs, I found that using the Lee Universal Expander Dies with a single or progressive press, one can reload smokeless lead bullet reloads faster and when seating the bullets, the COAL's will be perfect ...
* FL size the brass which gives the ID of the case the needed diameter tension so the lead bullet will not slide into the case when seating - will be 0.001 to 0.002 the full length of the bullet
* Adjust the bullet seating die to the desired length so it will produce a slight crimp at the case before the driving band
* Create a bell on the case mouth with the Lee Universal so 1/2 of the bullet base sets the case before the powder charging step... there will be no lead stripping when the bullet is seated with the powder charge

... Then every drop of the handle press will seat the bullet at the exact COAL position - Fast , no slippage of the bullet into the case - Perfect reloads

[EDG]

I don't think your method would work that well with soft bullets without gas checks on the base. I used to load Speer's swaged lead bullets for my .357 and .38s. It always took a better expander than Lee's to prevent damage to the bullet bases.

[nagantguy]

I use the above method for loading 45 and 38 in bulk, no gas check. They are powder coated now but for years they weren’t and I had good results.

[Tatume]

The standard, cartridge specific, expander dies do more than bell straight-sided pistol cases. The sizing die usually reduces the neck to less than ideal, and the expander increases the inside diameter. Otherwise, as EDG said, the case will be too tight and will reduce the bullet diameter when soft bullets are seated.

The same is not true of sizing dies for bottle-necked cartridges. They have an expander plug. When the case is inserted into the die the neck is sized a little too small, and when it is withdrawn, the expander plug provides the desired final inside diameter.

[dragon813gt]

The Lee die is named wrong. It’s not an expander die. It only bells the case mouth. If you don’t care about neck tension it’s a great die for belling to get a bullet started. If you care about neck tension NOE makes plugs for the Lee die to turn it into an actual expander. There’s a big difference between an expander a die that only bells the case mouth.

[Duckdog]

I have both and usually use the LEE. It's easy the flop between calibers and gives good results. Pretty ingenious.

[mdi]

The Lee die is named wrong. It’s not an expander die. It only bells the case mouth. If you don’t care about neck tension it’s a great die for belling to get a bullet started. If you care about neck tension NOE makes plugs for the Lee die to turn it into an actual expander. There’s a big difference between an expander a die that only bells the case mouth.
True. It only puts a taper in the case mouth to expedite bullet seating. I have a couple M dies,but although they do work, I have had no real reason to "expand and flare" the case mouths. I load cast bullets with a BHN of from 10 to over 17 and have had no problems with either set backs nor swaging bullet's diameter when only flaring the case mouth with Lee's or home made flaring tools (38/357 Mag, 44 Sp/Mag, 9mm, 45 ACP)...

[Outpost75]

A soft lead bullet of 10 BHN or less, forced into a FL sized case which is only flared, will reduce bullet diameter as the bullet is seated, so that it no longer fits the cylinder throats, but will be undersized. You can determine if this is occurring by tapping the bullet out of a few loaded rounds with an inertia puller and then measuring them with a micrometer and comparing to their original diameter. Seating soft-swaged 148-grain HBWC factory bullets, such as Remington, into excessively sized cases, being flared only, rather than being expanded to 0.001" less than bullet diameter to the base of the seated bullet, will reduce bullet diameter by about 0.002 and effectively DOUBLE 50-yard group size from that expected when fired in a good target revolver.

Not an issue with bullets harder than 12 BHN.

[HangFireW8]

I use the NOE expander even where it is not necessary... or even not usually necessary. If an occasional case has more resistance then the rest, I know something's up with that case.

[MOA]

I have both. Started with "M" dies for most of my cast boolit calibers, and then I also added the Lee to the equipt inventory. Both have their place in my tool line-up.

[mdi]

A soft lead bullet of 10 BHN or less, forced into a FL sized case which is only flared, will reduce bullet diameter as the bullet is seated, so that it no longer fits the cylinder throats, but will be undersized. You can determine if this is occurring by tapping the bullet out of a few loaded rounds and then measuring them with a micrometer and comparing to their original diameter. Seating soft-swaged 148-grain HBWC factory bullets, such as Remington, into excessively sized cases, being flared only, rather than being expanded to 0.001" less than bullet diameter to the base of the seated bullet, will reduce bullet diameter by about 0.002 and effectively DOUBLE 50-yard group size from that expected when fired in a good target revolver.

Not an issue with bullets harder than 12 BHN.

Maybe, but not necessarily so...

[Outpost75]

Maybe, but not necessarily so...

It does depend upon accurately measured bullet hardness, actual sizing die dimensions and brass wall thickness as well as the die state of cold working or anneal of the brass to be reloaded.

Once-fired brass is MUCH more forgiving. As one who has over the years tested dozens of revolvers off Ransom rest, also having measured bullets of known hardness prior to loading and after having extracted and measured samples after loading, I'll stick by my statement.

As they say, your mileage may vary, and if your accuracy requirements are generous as to make sub 3-inch, 12-shot, 50 yard groups meaningless, such that you cannot discern the difference, then don't waste your time.

[Taterhead]

It depends on the bullet diameter and the inside diameter of the neck after it leaves the sizing die. If there is a .001-.002" difference (with the neck ID being smaller, then the Lee Universal Flairing die is sufficient.

My only problem is that the sizing die alone has never left me with the correct neck ID, so an expander die or button is needed to get the right neck ID. Otherwise the neck is too narrow for the task at hand. The exception is a bushing style neck sizer.

I own and use the Lee die to open the case mouth in limited applications, but only after using an expander of some sort to set neck ID.

[Oily]

This topic will generate more animosity than we like here. If you like to plink and deer hunt at 100 yds one regimen will work for you. If you are trying to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of your loads then you follow the other regimen. Neck tension is very important trying to shoot sub MOA groups with cast boolits. Hard to do and some of us strive to do this. Hunting loads at 100 to maybe 200 yds max are easier to obtain with regular practices. No disrespect here at all for the short range shooters. My uncle has killed more deer than I can count with guns that won't shoot better than 3" at 100 yds! 3" at 100 yds will take down any whitetail in my area. If you want to go down the wormhole with the rest of us and go for 1" groups at 100 yds with 5 shot groups then go with the NOE or Lyman M die route. I prefer the NOE because of the multitude of diameters you can choose from. Choose the route you want to go and stick to it. And the most important thing you can do in your quest for cast boolit accuracy is to have fun!

[EDG]

I have not shot a whitetail in about 20 years. I found that hunting was not a good reason to be a shooter since I did so little shooting while hunting. Target shooting, plinking and accuracy testing offer me a lot more shooting.
If you only reload to hunt you can get by without loading for accuracy but you could also get by without reloading at all.

[Jackpine]

Track of the Wolf sells expanders, that fit in the Lee expander dies in various, larger than normal, diameters. They expand the entire neck, so you don't get the possible compression of the bullet, and in theory, give more consistent grip on the bullet. They can also be set anywhere from no flare of the case mouth to large flare. I know for sure that they have them for 45-70, but not sure about others. I think most of the rifle dies, labeled "Cowboy" also have a larger diameter expander stem.

[catmandu]

I have both. Started with "M" dies for most of my cast boolit calibers, and then I also added the Lee to the equipt inventory. Both have their place in my tool line-up.

+1 I did well for a long time till some new variables came along, picked up sone guns with chamber dimensions different than I had before, also found some brass with a different wall thickness. New variables needed new tooling. Also I learned new things to check and look for and now I pick the tool that is best.

My 2 cents.

Paul in WNY

[jonp]

The Lee Universal does what I need and didn't cost and arm and a leg which is usual for their equipment. Reloading equipment that works for what it is intended to do at a price everyone can afford

[P Flados]

This is really pretty simple.

The Lee die can do the job Ok for many applications. If it works, it is easy to use.

For some applications, expanding is needed. If you load a lot of stuff, you will probably find that the Lee tool is less than optimum for some portion of what you do.

There is no way I could load leading free in my boy's Glock 9mm with my boolits without a "just right" expander.

If you are picky about results, using something like the Noe system with a carefully selected expander plug will give you improved consistency in neck tension and just the right bell to make it work the way you want.

It could be summed up as "You makes your choices, you pays your money, you get what you pay for"

[MT Chambers]

Precision reloading requires consistent case neck tension, the Lee die does not deliver that.

[noylj]

Please note that the Lee Universal Expander does NOT expand the case. All it does it flare the case mouth. For proper fit and ease of bullet seating, you should use a "real" expander die that will open up the case ID from where the sizer put it (it has to size all case wall thicknesses, so it can't size case ID to ideal setting) to 0.001-0.002" less than bullet diameter. Trying to seat the bullet into a case with an ID that is more than 0.002" under bullet diameter is one cause of the bullet being seated crooked and putting a bulge in the case at the bullet's base.
The Universal Expander works great for bottleneck cases, since the expander plug is part of the sizing die, but not so great for straight wall cases.

[uscra112]

Outpost75 makes a good point about how the temper of the brass affects expanding. A good while ago I was loading .38 Spl for my Colt target revolver, and wound up making three M-die mandrels that differed by only .001", selected as necessary for various batches of brass. The difference on the targets was noticeable, even though I was never that good of a shot using the classical one-hand technique.

[crankycalico]

Precision reloading requires consistent case neck tension, the Lee die does not deliver that.

I find mine seems to stick in the die body, not exactly a way to get a consistent bell. However it HAS worked so far, but it seems to hurt the case mouth in the spots the case doesn't hit the plug correctly.