Update on .38-45 Clerke project

[Patrick L]

Well, last weekend I fitted that .38-45 barrel and bushing I was given a few months back to my Gold Cup. I loaded up 30 rds, all with a 147 gr TC 9mm bullet(which approximates the .38 wadcutters most of us shot bullseye with). I loaded 3.2 and 3.5 of Bullseye. I had 3 springs too, 18.5#, 16.5#, and 15#, all variable rate. Nothing functioned, but it shot fairly accurately, and suprisingly to the sights as set for my .45 target loads.

I got back to the range last night, this time with 8,9, and 10# springs. The 10# spring allowed everything to cycle perfectly, and the slide to lock back. I really took my time with the 3.5 gr loads, and was rewarded with a 50 foot group of about 1 1/2 inches!

If I ever get around to figuring out how to post pics again I will. Darn Photobucket!

[Green Frog]

Folks that wanted to hot rod that cartridge sort of obscured what I believe was its original intended purpose, building a reliable gun for the center fire leg of the 2700 course when Bullseye was in its heyday. The various military teams had already done all the development possible for making the venerable 1911 platform shoot accurately, and the hope was to get the same gun to chamber a smaller, lower recoil round to compete with the 38 revolver. The various attempts at making a 38 Special semi-auto were stalling out, so the 38-45 seemed like a good idea. If Bullseye were still had the wide popularity it once did, you would probably be able to buy factory 38-45s. Glad you are enjoying it! :Fire:

Froggie

[6string]

Yes, the 38-45 Clerke was intended as a mild and accurate round for the CF course of the Bullseye 2700 match. However, it was not intended to address any supposed problems involving the 38 Special wadcutter in the 1911 platform. Rather, it was to allow the use of the much more plentiful 1911 pistols and slides with 45 ACP breechface. These, of course, were very cheap and easily available on the surplus market and represented a huge cost savings over a full custom 38 Special conversion of a 1911, (which required an expensive commercial 1911 in 38 Super) as being done by John Giles, Jim Clark, etc.
the 38-45 Clerke just needed a barrel and reloading dies, maybe a new bushing, too.

Jim

[bruce drake]

Excellent writeup and I look forward to a few pictures in the future. Someone once asked me why I didn't hotload my .400 corbon 1911, and I said, I don't need a hand cannon, I need a bullet that will punch a hole in the bad guy where I want it to be. After that its all about the dynamics of a 155gr Truncated Cone cast lead bullet doing its best to either expand up to .45 caliber or bounce around off a few bones before departing in an exit wound at an angle different than where it went in at. ;)

That said, I am still in the hunt for a good 38-45 1911 barrel also.

Bruce

[Mk42gunner]

So many projects, so little time....

I came across at least a partial set of forming dies for this cartridge several years ago at a local gun show. I have since gotten the needed extended shell holder (came with the .45ACP shotshell forming die).

My thoughts are to buy a 9mm barrel and rent the chambering reamer, I have enough loading dies I am sure I can cobble together a set to load it. One of these years I will come across a barrel, but don't hold your breath waiting.

Robert

[dverna]

Competitive shooters want something easy to reload and that means carbide dies and straight wall cartridges. It never did catch on for a reason.

I suspect that it headspaces on the case mouth, so after forming the case out of .45 ACP, it will need to be trimmed to length. Work that most pistol shooters do not want to do. So much easier to convert to .32 S&W Long and also get lower recoil for competitive shooting.

Interesting cartridge but better options out there IMHO. Much like the .357 Sig in some ways.

[Patrick L]

My interest in this was simply to explore the how to's of this historically interesting cartridge. And that's just what I'm doing, and having a ball!

[Patrick L]

Mk42Gunner, the forming dies are a 4 die set. If you have 4 you have them all.

Extended shell holder? I use a standard shell holder with mine. Why do you need an extended one?

[bruce drake]

Extended shellholders shorten the press stroke if I remember correctly. I've never had a need for them but some folks like them.

That said, Mk42Gunner, that been my plan if I can't find a professionally chambered 38-45 barrel also.

Bruce

[Patrick L]

According to everything I've read on this, you use a .38 Super barrel and rechamber that. That's what mine is. Of course I see no reason a 9mm barrel wouldn't work.

[bruce drake]

According to everything I've read on this, you use a .38 Super barrel and rechamber that. That's what mine is. Of course I see no reason a 9mm barrel wouldn't work.

A .38 Super barrel has been used in the past as its parent chamber's cartridge (38 Super) brass is just slightly longer (.900") than the 45 ACP case (.898") but thanks to recent developments with 1911s chambered in 9x19 by several companies now, a 1911 9x19 chambered barrel is actually more readily available and cheaper to use as a basis of this project. Most 9x19 barrels are rifled at 1-10" but many are also rifled at 1-16" because many companies choose to make both their 9x19 and 38 Super barrels with the same barrel stock on their shelves. Finding quality dies and a reamer is the long pole in the tent at this point I feel. You can buy the tooling, parts and dies new and go into the deal with the same cost of a new Glock in 357 Sig unless we do this with Ebay or bargain deals amongst friends. But then, none of us are in this thread for the aspect of a cheap conversion barrel.

Bruce

Bruce

[Patrick L]

Oh absolutely, it would be crazy to spend the money to do this on a whim. Back when I originally posted about this over the summer, I told how I was given the barrel and bushing, as well as the case forming dies and the reloading dies by a friend whose dad had passed away. The older gentleman was a very active bullseye shooter back in the heyday of the .38-45.

[Mk42gunner]

Mk42Gunner, the forming dies are a 4 die set. If you have 4 you have them all.

Extended shell holder? I use a standard shell holder with mine. Why do you need an extended one?
I don't have the ziplock bag they came in in front of me, it is buried in the loading room somewhere, but I remember three dies for sure and maybe a forth. A ziplock baggie of dies really instills confidence that you got the complete set if you know what I mean.

The reason I was thinking I needed an extended shell holder is the forming dies are very short and would need to be screwed completely into the top of the Rockchucker. For some odd reason I didn't immediately play with this set of dies, usually I make at least one or two examples of whatever my new dies make.

One other thing, I plan to at least start with a four cent recoil spring. I am not kidding that is what they cost through the Navy's supply system in 1988. I used one when I built a 9mm top end using a Springfield Armory slide that was given to me. Generic 9mm ball cases would kind of dribble out into a pile two feet from my right foot.

Robert

[Patrick L]

Oh I agree 100%. If I didn't already have an assortment of light springs from back when I had my comp gun built I would have taken a stock spring out of my parts box and started clipping coils.

This has been a fun project

[Reg]

Use a 9 m/m barrel. They work just fine

[Patrick L]

Ok now for part 2. Part 1 was a success, the barrel and bushing were fitted, accuracy was excellent with both 147 gr 9mm TC bullets and some .357 158 SWC bullets. A light spring provided 100 % function in regards to cycling, feeding, and locking the slide open on final shot. All good!!

BUT, here is the problem. There is an issue in that the formed cases are VERY tight in the chamber. Not all of them, but I'd say about 15% of the time I have to give the slide a little shove to go the last 1/8th inch into battery, another often those rounds leave the case stuck in the chamber. A cleaning rod pokes them out easily.

I may have a max tolerance die/min tolerance chamber issue. Or, I may need to start over. To be honest I just grabbed 50 garbage cases, 20+ years old, mixed headstamps, etc.to get the project started. I'm thinking now that I have a little experience in this I'll start with some virgin cases and see what happens then. Wish me luck!

[Mk42gunner]

I think I'd take the decapping pin out of my .45ACP sizer and run the cases through that as an extra step. It just may squeeze them enough to chamber freely.

My thinking is there may be a bulge below the shoulder from forming the case. This did help when I was cobbling .45ACP shotshells with an assortment of dies.

Good luck,

Robert

[Patrick L]

Actually Robert I did do that already. I sort of regard that as the "fifth step" in the forming process.

To be totally honest, I must admit to only giving that barrel a quick brushing. There could be crud built up in the chamber; wouldn't it be nice if that was all it was?

[Patrick L]

Oh wait, I just re read your post. The .45 ACP die? I never thought of that. Maybe!!

[Tackleberry41]

Mixed cases can make such issues. Try it with a single brand and check the results.

[yeahbub]

A fellow I knew got into this caliber and we discussed various minor functional issues he had with it, including chambering of some newly converted cases. A veteran bullseye shooter commented that it was very helpful to use an M-die when prepping the cases for loading. This fixed the chambering problem and the chamber catching on and deforming the case neck. It was pleasantly accurate, but leading seems to be an ongoing problem. I get the impression a different lube and a softer alloy would have been helpful.

[Patrick L]

Both good suggestions, thank you!

I plan on ordering some virgin .45 ACP cases to play with over Christmas break. I currently was using an old RCBS .357 expander die, but I do like M dies for lots of other calibers, so maybe I'll grab one for this.

[Patrick L]

Ok, brass and M die ordered!!

[Patrick L]

Robert, you hit the nail square on the head!

I had 30 loaded rounds and 20 fired cases, so I first took my barrel out of the gun and used it as a drop gauge. All of the loaded rounds were a tight fit in the chamber. So I did as you suggested, ran them into my .45 ACP carbide sizer with the decapping rod removed. All the rounds now dropped into the chamber with a satisfying "plock" and the back of the case dead even flush with the rear of the barrel hood. Ditto on the fired cases.

It remains to be seen if I need to do this as a final step each time I reload, or if doing it once during the case forming is sufficient

[Mk42gunner]

I'm glad it worked for you.

Like I said, I had to do that when making .45ACP shot shells the cheap way. I don't remember all the dies I used but I know the .30-30 and .22-250 dies were involved. Fortunately, thanks to an estate auction I am past that now, I ended up with both the form die set and the loading die set for a total expenditure of $20.00.

Those two boxes made just about everything else I bought that day basically free. I really hope when my daughter sells all my stuff that she does some homework and gets a knowledgeable auctioneer.

Robert

[Patrick L]

OK, 100% success today. 30 rds ran without a hitch or hiccup. Pretty accurate little round too. Shot on the indoor range (50 foot) at real 50 foot national match course. Slowfire 9 out of 10 in black (pulled last one JYST outside). Timed fire 8 out of 10 in black, rapid 5 in the black, pulled 5 a bit low but I do that with anything.

[Patrick L]

I spent some time over the last few days forming cases. I had purchased 100 new Starline cases in anticipation of this. Absolutely no lost cases, and using my barrel as a case gauge, every formed case dropped in with what Dean Grennel used to call a "plock" fit. And I didn't have to use the .45 ACP Carbide die for that final sizing to achieve that. It will remain to be seen what happens after I fire the cases, whether that extra sizing will be necessary.

Now I just need to play around with boolits to see what this cartridge likes best. The 147 gr FPs were store bought, so once they're gone I will need to cast something. I have three .38 caliber molds, hopefully there's something that it will like. Then again, to keep recoil to an abslote minimum I might want to try something in a 9mm 125 grain range. I don't have anything that light, all my .38 molds are 148-158 grain.

[Patrick L]

I tried each of the three boolits I have, all with success, but also a few quirks. I fired a 10 shot group at 50 feet (our indoor range distance) from a bench rested position.

The first was our plainbase clone of the 358156 Lyman. It shot well, but with one interesting peculiarity. 6 of the 10 went int about 2 inches, right to the sights, BUT, the other four printed a tight group of their own (maybe an inch) low and right, making the total group about 3 inches. I was very carefully watching the sights, and I really can't account for that. But I don't consider them fliers when they land right on top of one another. It was like two separate groups.

The second was the Lee 158 gr TLSWC. It shot very well, 10 shots under 2 inches, and really 9 went about an inch and a half, with 1 flier making the total group just under 2.

The third boolit was the Lee 148 gr TLWC, a full wadcutter. I loaded it with 1 band outside of the case mouth. It was very accurate too, also doing 9 into about 1 1/2 inches plus a flier that made the group total just under 2 inches. And of course the holes in the target were cut cookie cutter perfect. Unfortunately there were feeding issues. The rounds fed , but they were so stubby that rounds 3, 4, and 5 would move forward in the magazine under recoil and not feed correctly.

I really need to figure out this picture thing and post some pictures.

[Patrick L]

This project continues to be one of the most enjoyable things I've messed with in a long time!

I did order a Lee TL124TC mold, and yesterday got a chance to fire a few. Accuracy was exceptional, equal fully to what I got with 148-158 grain boolits. 3.2 gr Bullseye went into a really nice little cluster, but function was not 100% with my current 10# spring. 3.5 of Bullseye functioned 100% and shot nearly as well.

I think ultimately I will get me an 8# spring and use 3.2 gr. with the LEE boolit. To say that combination felt like shooting a .22 might be a bit of an exaggeration, but not much. For now I have about 500-600 of the heavier boolits to use up. I have another 100 virgin Starline .45ACP cases so I think on my next vacation I'll form them up and that will give me 200 pieces of brass.

Still trying to figure out the picture posting thing. Darn Photobucket!

[Patrick L]

Hi guys, I've left this thread for awhile. I've spent most of the winter fooling around with loads etc. on the indoor 50 foot range. Then I moved outside when things thawed out for 25 and 50 yard work. More importantly, I finally relearned how to post pics since Photobucket got greedy.

Anyhow, forming cases is no big chore, other than it takes five pulls of the handle to get one case. Its a four die forming set, and your FL sizing die is the fifth step. I initially tried some old cases I loaded about a gazillion times, and got lots of splits, etc. Virgin Starline cases yielded ZERO losses. The five steps are
https://i.imgur.com/eYPC6vw.jpg

I fitted the barrel and bushing to my accurized Gold Cup (this is a ,45 target from the files)
https://i.imgur.com/5RoGFiJ.jpg

I initially used whatever boolits I happened to have, plus I ordered the Lee 9mm 124TLTC at right
https://i.imgur.com/56M0tTk.jpg

Ultimately, the Lee boolit and a Lee 148 TLWC, seated about half out, are the two I have settled on. Both loaded with 3.2 gr Bullseye and a 7# variable rate spring function great. The full wadcutter can be a problematic feeder in some of my magazines. The full wadcutter is very accurate, the TC nearly so and gives noticeably less recoil, although both are very mild.

This is a typical 50 foot group, although not with the boolits I ultimately settled on
https://i.imgur.com/xI4Hzn8.jpg?1

And this is a 50 yard group, fired 1 handed "NRA Bullseye" style, with the 148 WC
https://i.imgur.com/tr9HkFz.jpg

This is about as well as I can shoot. Sorry about the high flyer, I always seem to yank one! As to the other two, it looks like i could go a click or two down, as the ones in the black are all in the upper half.

This project has been a hoot! Thanks for following along and all the advice I was given.

[Pressman]

Great story, I would have loved to have that combination when I was shooting Bullseye. We had to use a separate gun fitted a throated chamber and lighter springs for 45 wadcutter loads.

[Patrick L]

Thanks! I was getting concerned, no one replied to my last post. So many people helped out last fall and winter, I wanted them to see the pictures finally!

[onelight]

Your 50 yard 1 hand group humbles me , I would be elated to do that at 50 yards with both hands off a rest.

[bruce drake]

great culmination on the efforts to get it up and running! Next step is to shoot it in a match as part of a 900 pt leg of a Bullseye 2700 match.