Swam with the Hammerheads Today!

[Ranch Dog]

Or, at least I gave the sharks a bucket of water to swim in!

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Casting/sabot_tech/casting/MSH-12G_01.jpg

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Casting/sabot_tech/casting/MSH-12G_02.jpg

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Casting/sabot_tech/casting/MSH-12G_03.jpg

[Loudenboomer]

Looks good Mike! Keep us posted on load development.

[Loudenboomer]

Mike I think Hammer Head's nick name should be "Texas Piggie Pounder"! :)

[Ranch Dog]

Looks good Mike! Keep us posted on load development.
Of course! Can't wait to get started at 100-yards!


Mike I think Hammer Head's nick name should be "Texas Piggie Pounder"! :)
It has been slow with all the acorns and pecans on the ground. I finally have had two days of hog activity at a feeder. It is about an hour before daylight, six boars. No problem, I have a hog light at each feeder. It will be a 80-yard shot on them so these will need to give me a usable MOA.

[rancher1913]

needs some powder coat, why you ask, just for fun.

[Ranch Dog]

needs some powder coat, why you ask, just for fun.
Might not fit in the sabot!

[longbow]

On that note, how tight are the slugs in in the sabots? Good firm thumb press fit?

[Blood Trail]

On that note, how tight are the slugs in in the sabots? Good firm thumb press fit?

It’s very tight. I use my MEC universals sizer to seat the slug.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes it appears that the Slug /wad combination is designed to stay together till the end. thus a press fit on the slug. This is exactly what you want.

Randy

[Reverend Al]

needs some powder coat, why you ask, just for fun.

That was my thought too ... so I PC'd some of my 12 and 20 gauge Lyman sabot slugs! (I just haven't had a chance to load and shoot any of them yet. My thinking was that they might be visible in flight ... sort of like a sabot slug "tracer" ...)

https://i.imgur.com/AIBAaLI.jpg

[Blood Trail]

Yes it appears that the Slug /wad combination is designed to stay together till the end. thus a press fit on the slug. This is exactly what you want.

Randy

Yessir. It’s called an. Non-discarding sabot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ranch Dog]

On that note, how tight are the slugs in in the sabots? Good firm thumb press fit?
Yeap, a good tight fit. I can almost feel a bit of a snap as they seat. Might be air escaping. I can see where it would get tiring with large lots of them and I'm always trying to justify my K&M Arbor Press.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Casting/sabot_tech/reloading/K&M_seating.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mike and those that don't already know, that little Arbor Press is the ideal tool to push on your Lee Classic Loader Dies.

Contrary to popular belief Hand Dies (Wilson and others) as they are called were not designed to be beaten on with a mallet. That was Lee's answer to the Arbor Press.

I have the Sinclair version of that press in my shop and love using it. I install gas checks with it.

Ordering Sabots and a mould today.

Randy

[Ranch Dog]

Mike and those that don't already know, that little Arbor Press is the ideal tool to push on your Lee Classic Loader Dies.

Contrary to popular belief Hand Dies (Wilson and others) as they are called were not designed to be beaten on with a mallet. That was Lee's answer to the Arbor Press.

I have the Sinclair version of that press in my shop and love using it. I install gas checks with it.
I bought it for use with my SMLE scout rifle. I use the Lee Loader die.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Reloading/k&m/images/k&m_arbor_03.jpg


Ordering Sabots and a mould today.
I don't know how long these have been available, but they sure would have save me a lot of money. The range effort could have been spent on other projects.

[Ranch Dog]

Ordering Sabots and a mould today.
Randy, you do get a really cool pen light with your order!

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Casting/sabot_tech/images/STI_penlight.jpg

[elvas]

I think that a small hole at the center of the "shotcup" will help to put the slugs in by thumb pressure only.

[Ranch Dog]

I think that a small hole at the center of the "shotcup" will help to put the slugs in by thumb pressure only.
Shush... then I can't use my press.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
This just may put the lowly round ball mold back in the box ! Simplicity at it's finest !
Penetration and solid punching power from the start.
Mike in Peru

[jmort]

I can get the Federal Truball Deep Penetrators for around $.80 per round. Slugs R Us starts at $.40 per wad or $.75 per wad and slug. At these prices, I am not sure we have a solution considering the cost. This is the rabbit-hole we always go down with 12 gauge slugs. We have been at this for a few years now. Always very interesting. Ultimately, we need an inexpensive wad and slug that is as accurate as the factory slugs. The Hammerhead is accurate, but comparatively is not inexpensive. Would love to see some penetration testing.
Here is the Truball Deep Penetrator test
https://youtu.be/zAq5jNBrRbw
Here is the Original Brenneke test
https://youtu.be/zAq5jNBrRbw
Like Bart Simpson on a road trip, "Are we there yet?"
The test videos are short and very informative.

[Blood Trail]

I can get the Federal Truball Deep Penetrators for around $.80 per round. Slugs R Us starts at $.40 per wad or $.75 per wad and slug. At these prices, I am not sure we have a solution considering the cost. This is the rabbit-hole we always go down with 12 gauge slugs. We have been at this for a few years now. Always very interesting. Ultimately, we need an inexpensive wad and slug that is as accurate as the factory slugs. The Hammerhead is accurate, but comparatively is not inexpensive. Would love to see some penetration testing.
Here is the Truball Deep Penetrator test
https://youtu.be/zAq5jNBrRbw
Here is the Original Brenneke test
https://youtu.be/zAq5jNBrRbw
Like Bart Simpson on a road trip, "Are we there yet?"
The test videos are short and very informative.

The price you pay for accuracy. Hammerheads, in my experience, is far more accurate at distance than any foster slug I’ve shot.

To be more fair in your comparison, you’d have to compare Foster slug to foster slug, and sabot to sabot. We all know sabots are more expensive.

Do the comparison between these at copper solids or accutips.

[Blood Trail]

Delete

[missionary5155]

For me once the mold is purchased the cost is near nothing for the projectile. The mold can be sold in the future. Lead is not that expensive if you have to buy it. So that gets us down to the wad.

[jmort]

The price you pay for accuracy. Hammerheads, in my experience, is far more accurate at distance than any foster slug I’ve shot.

To be more fair in your comparison, you’d have to compare Foster slug to foster slug, and sabot to sabot. We all know sabots are more expensive.

Do the comparison between these at copper solids or accutips.

Good point

[Ranch Dog]

For me once the mold is purchased the cost is near nothing for the projectile. The mold can be sold in the future. Lead is not that expensive if you have to buy it. So that gets us down to the wad.
I just did an inventory of the wads that I purchased on the hope that they would work with the Lee & Lyman, wads that were recommended . $270 sitting in a box that did not deliver one usable group at 100-yards. So compared to that, the STI sabots are dirt cheap.

[Ranch Dog]

I can get the Federal Truball Deep Penetrators for around $.80 per round. Slugs R Us starts at $.40 per wad or $.75 per wad and slug. At these prices, I am not sure we have a solution considering the cost. This is the rabbit-hole we always go down with 12 gauge slugs. We have been at this for a few years now. Always very interesting. Ultimately, we need an inexpensive wad and slug that is as accurate as the factory slugs. The Hammerhead is accurate, but comparatively is not inexpensive.
I just did an inventory of the wads that I purchased on the hope that they would work with the Lee & Lyman, wads that were recommended. $270 sitting in a box that did not deliver one usable group at 100-yards. So compared to that, the STI sabots are dirt cheap.
The trouble is that a pressure wad is not a pressure sabot. The wad walls are too thin and the strut too weak. Ounce per ounce, starting a column of shot (which the pressure wad is designed for) is not the same as starting a solid slug. Just the cup design supports the ounce per ounce comparison. A pressure wad designed for one ounce of shot is too deep for a one-ounce slug if you don't trim the petals, they fail and compromise the performance of the strut. My experience has been that even trimming the petals compromises the design of the entire pressure wad.

As you noted, the Lee and Lyman slugs have been down the rabbit hole a lot of years. I have searched six years and have not found anyone that documented a respectable group from these projectiles at 100-yards. The best thing we could do to see modern designs from Lee and Lyman would be to stop buying their present offerings.


Would love to see some penetration testing [of the STI sabot & Hammerhead slug]
I won't be able to do the gel tests but will put the STIs on a hog. I can already tell you how that is going to go; they will blow right through them. I would not say that with the Lee or Lyman. If their helical flight happened to be in time to a POA hit, I think that they would be wobbling so bad that penetration would be compromised. They are terrible designs.

[longbow]

What I don't get... and without a rifled gun to test things I may never get it... is what is wrong with full bore slugs in rifled gun? Eliminate the shotcup or pressure wad and eliminate that variable.

Greg Sappington, who some of you may remember as he used to post here and on shotgunworld quite a bit, went through all sorts of designs for wad slugs before concluding that full bore slugs or proper sabot slugs are more accurate. He pointed out the obvious variations in wall thickness of CSD wads and certainly the ones I have are terribly inconsistent in wall thickness. You wouldn't even consider that much error as reasonable for a metallic cartridge reload and it certainly doesn't add to accuracy for shotgun slugs either.

With plastic hulls in sloppy chambers and bore dimensions that vary all over the map we are not likely to see "rifle" like accuracy from our shotguns, rifled or not but the fact that H&H Paradox guns, and I'm sure other of similar design, could 5" groups at 100 yards using both barrels with full bore slugs makes me think that we are missing something.

In my case, I've been struggling along with smoothbores trying to "beat" them but I think I've been beaten! Out to 50 yards I am happy but trying to realize consistent hunting level 100 yard accuracy... well, not so much. I'd happily take a dependable 5" group at 100 yards.

Anyway, point being is that all the effort seems to be towards wad slugs, Hammerhead slugs and true sabot slugs. There seems to be far more in the way of slug designs available in Europe and Russia than in the west and most of that seems to be full bore slugs.

Why aren't people looking at modern bore guns like the old English style guns that took shotgun shells with balls or slugs and were rifled with slow twists?

My rifled choke tube will be 1:72" twist when done. Well, it is 1:72" twist now and about half rifled (as in half deep)... finally! Hoping to be finished in a week or so. I picked 1:72" as a compromise. It is fast for full bore round ball or square solid slug but fast enough it should handle a longer slug as well. We'll see.

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

LB,

With a rifled shotgun I think a fullbore solid base slug is the way to go. Better yet is use a slow enough powder to fill the hull and eliminate all the plastic between the powder and projectile; minimize components, minimizes variables.

The downside to this loading technique in a 12ga is recoil. The only powder i know that will work is SR 4759 and it had been out of production for years.

Hogtamer's Zlugs could help reduce the recoil to a tolerable level.

BB

[Blood Trail]

The trouble is that a pressure wad is not a pressure sabot. The wad walls are too thin and the strut too weak. Ounce per ounce, starting a column of shot (which the pressure wad is designed for) is not the same as starting a solid slug. Just the cup design supports the ounce per ounce comparison. A pressure wad designed for one ounce of shot is too deep for a one-ounce slug if you don't trim the petals, they fail and compromise the performance of the strut. My experience has been that even trimming the petals compromises the design of the entire pressure wad.

As you noted, the Lee and Lyman slugs have been down the rabbit hole a lot of years. I have searched six years and have not found anyone that documented a respectable group from these projectiles at 100-yards. The best thing we could do to see modern designs from Lee and Lyman would be to stop buying their present offerings.


I won't be able to do the gel tests but will put the STIs on a hog. I can already tell you how that is going to go; they will blow right through them. I would not say that with the Lee or Lyman. If their helical flight happened to be in time to a POA hit, I think that they would be wobbling so bad that penetration would be compromised. They are terrible designs.

I think I’m on my way for usable Lyman slug groups at 100 yards. This was my 50 yard group result 3 weeks ago. 4 shots.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181201/66bb9abaaed986daefb1d3e11a87b03a.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

I also think a full diameter slug could be very accurate. The problem is you can choose low velocity, or a snot blasting recoil. Then there is the wadding between again. Here is a crazy idea I've had in my head. Have RMC make a custom set of brass hulls that fit my particular chamber as tight as possible, with an ID to hold a slug tight. Basically make a 12 gauge rifle cartridge. Then load full with Fg blackpowder, and hold on. But there is the whole thing with the cost again, RMC isn't cheap, plus the 200 grains or so of blackpowder isn't all that economical. Plus you get crazy recoil again.

[Ranch Dog]

I wish you the best BT! That is similar to the result I saw and 50, but it all went to heck at 75-yards. They were lucky to hit the target cardboard backing. All my slug work has been in 25-yard increments. Keep us posted.

[Ranch Dog]

I'm at the point where I'm happy with the Hammerheads. I'm also thankful that I don't have to hunt with a slug gun in Texas. I will get a hog killed in the coming week and get back to some centerfires that need my attention.

[longbow]

I've thought about the brass hull thing too and it would make sense except the brass would be so thick it wouldn't swell to seal the chamber.

Standard brass with a custom oversize barrel would work or possibly necking standard brass hulls down to standard slug diameter would work. The brass would see a lot of working though without a custom chamber.

I wonder if a ribbed slug (Brenneke like) or something like the old Paradox bullets with narrow driving bands and deep groove could be made to fit brass hulls but swage down safely to suit standard rifled bore? That would likely be the easiest.

Anyone know internal diameter of brass hulls other than about 11 ga.?

I'm thinking a bullet like that casting ar 0.740" to maybe 0.745" like those old Paradox bullets might fit the brass hulls yet still swage to "normal" 12 ga. bore... same idea should apply to 16 or 20 ga. too for those not interested in 12 ga.

Sorry msm and others, I kinda wandered a bit.

Longbow

[pashiner]

All of a sudden, hubel458 and his 12 gauge from hell doesn't sound so crazy! I think RMC makes thick walled brass shells that have a proper .730 inside diameter, but don't hold me to that...maybe shoot them an email? Suppose you were to anneal the top 2/3 of a thick brass shell to give it a better chance to seal the bore, put in 150ish grains of fg black powder, then a thick fiber or felt wad(or 2) and a full bore slug? Sounds like a reasonable load that is built like a good BPCR rifle cartridge to me. I suspect the trick would be to use a rifled barrel with a 2 3/4 chamber to maintain a sane powder capacity with a minimum of wad height, and allow the nose of the slug to be seated right close to the start of the rifling. At least, that's how my old trapdoor rifle likes to be loaded. Too much jump to the rifling and accuracy disappears and the barrel gets fouled quicker. I've considered taking this route with slugs, but the only rifled barrel I have is 3 1/2 chamber. That would take quite some powder charge!

[longbow]

Ed Hubel started out with typical shotguns and slugs as far as I know and he came up with some pretty impressive velocities at safe pressures using slow for shotgun powders. One was something like 120 grs. of 4227 (if memory serves) under a 1 oz. or 1 1/4 oz. or thereabouts slug. Don't go loading that up without checking first!

I know it was a very hefty load of 4227 under a typical weight range slug. There was enough slow powder to provide long burn time at safe pressure. The velocities were pretty impressive but I am betting the recoil was also pretty impressive, though not likely a bad jab as shotguns tend to produce but more of a heavy push due to slow powder. That and it would be hard on a guy's wallet at 120 grs. of powder per shot. Okay for developing a very powerful hunting load but not something most people would shoot a lot of.

Back to the brass hulls... I wonder if they could have thick walls up to slug level to both reduce volume for less wad column but thin case mouth for 1/4" or 3/8" to seal and allow an over slug wad/plastic disk and a bit of a roll crimp to retain it all?

There would still be that perilous jump through the forcing cone though. Only way to get rid of that is to ream a more rifle like chamber and use chamber filling hull or get a blank barrel chambered short with a rifle like chamber then have short brass hull made to suit. That should work for plastic hull too... at least to get rid of the forcing cone and that jump through it.

If done you could use a full bore slug, little if any wadding or gas seal (maybe just gas seal?)... or since this would take a custom chamber then make the chamber so suit a "proper" brass cartridge then you'd have a short fat brass cartridge with full bore slug that could be seated with neck tension on the brass or even crimped and no forcing cone issue.

That would take an unchambered barrel and custom reamer to accomplish though. Not impossible but a substantial project and not really a shotgun in the end.

An approach I kinda like is the way H&H retains those Paradox slugs:

http://www.oldammo.com/june17.htm

Scroll down just a bit to see the loaded rounds with the hull crimped into that big groove around the slug.

With that method, you could seat the slug down in the hull but leave the hull full length and start the crimp over the nose of the slug to provide better feeding in a pump or bolt gun. That would allow minimizing wad column height.

Longbow

[RMc]

What do you want from a 12 gauge rifle?

Consider that a .730" / 730 grain hard cast lead bullet at 1050fps and sighted in for 75 yards, gives a usable trajectory of about 2" high at 50 and about 4" low at 100 yards.

[longbow]

Here's a another one:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=18637

What do I want from a 12 ga. "rifle"? I like the idea of the Paradox type guns that can be used with birdshot, buckshot or slug/boolit and provide decent hunting level accuracy to 100 or maybe 125 yards.

Why? I like the versatility of shotguns but want better slug accuracy than a typical smoothbore gives... with affordable ammunition and slugs I can cast myself. I would have thought this more easily achievable but apparently not! I've seen lots of posts here and on other sites claiming "rifle like" accuracy from smoothbores to 100 yards but I've seen very few good targets posted and usually only one group of 3 shots when they are.

Even rifled guns do not seem to be easy to get "rifle like" accuracy from past 50 yards or so. In the case of rifled shotguns I'd consider "rifle like" accuracy to be consistent groups of about 4" at 100 yards with home cast slugs and home loaded ammunition. That would keep me happy. I had been led to believe that was doable from smoothbore but I've not seen it.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: Thanks for the article on Paradox guns. I runs parallel to my Recollections from the 1962 G&A article, only the gun in the article was an Evan's Paradox. A poor man's Double Rifle. I was surprised how many of the facts of that article I had retained.

A 4" 5 shot group I would consider to be pretty good shooting, and 2 or 3 like it would prove the point.

The limitation I see is in the Slugs themselves, and more properly in the casting of said slugs.

Unlike most big rifle Boolits the slugs I have cast in the last two weeks have been more prone to casting irregularities. The Lyman Foster mould produces a good slug about 1 out of 5 pours! Might be me? But I have other Lyman moulds that produce perfect boolits with every pour. Even then the ones that appear to be good are not round, they are .002-.004 out of round, which makes them useless beyond 50 yards and suspect even before that. These obviously would not work in the rifled barrel and probably will be marginal in the smooth bore as well. I don't see the design of the slug being the problem, only the execution. Plenty of good Foster Slugs out there.

The Lyman Sabot Slug from the NOE mould is a different story. They come out good nearly every drop and they also look good. They are round and don't have voids in them. They also fit the Blue Wads correctly. Whether or not they will group well from a rifled barrel remains to be seen.

As soon as the gun comes back from Art's Gun Shop in Missouri I will have a gun with both a Smooth Bore Slug Barrel and a Rifled Slug Barrel, so I will be able to test slugs in both barrels.

The Smooth bore barrel will be getting shot most as I can shoot bird buck and slugs thru it for Front Sight and 3 Gun. I have shot enough groups with my M500 with the Vang Comped barrel to know that 2-2.5" groups at 50 yards are not only possible, they are relatively easy. All mine have been shot off hand!

Beyond 50 yards the flight of the slug becomes the issue. Will it keep going in the same direction or will it go stupid. Signs point to the latter. But Spinning that slug would probably have a positive effect.

The Hammerhead slug (I've got a mould and sabots coming) should prove to be the most accurate. I live in CA and can't shoot lead boolits at any game animal. But I can make Brass Boolits on my lathe and they will remove all doubt as to the integrity of the projectile.

I feel that the ultimate accuracy from a Rifled Shotgun will come from those lathe turned brass slugs, and lathe turned sabots as well..

Randy

[Cap'n Morgan]

Using custom made brass hulls would certainly be possible. I made a bunch of turned brass cases for my Martini Henry 577/450 with a an internal volume about the same as a 45-70. This made it much easier to work up a good load with smokeless powder. As long as the pressure was kept below about 18.000 psi, cases would last practically forever. As a bonus the cases didn't need resizing and they had an internal step in the neck to keep the boolit from moving back into the case. The neck walls were rather thick, but since the cases was turned to the exact measurements of the chamber leaking wasn't a problem at all.

Shotgun cases could be made in the same way. The first inch or so of the case could be of bore diameter stepping down to 1/2" for the rest. The reduced volume would eliminate the need for wads and stuff while still having a full length case. The lube would probably be enough to keep the slug in place - otherwise a dab of superglue should do the trick - no need for crimping.

Due to the simple profile cases could easily be made on a manual lathe from free cutting brass stock. A serious shotgun slug benchrest nut might even do a chamber cast and lengthen/matching the case into the forcing cone to minimize the jump.

[uncle dino]

The biggest difference I can see in paradox and modern rifled shotguns is the rifling. From pictures I have seen. Rifling on paradox has very narrow lands and wide grooves. Modern rifled shotgun barrels have very wide lands. Wide lands are fine for plastic, which is flexible and soft. It increases engraving pressure on lead or copper full bore slug. If you recover a full bore slugs shot from modern rifled barrels, no 2 slugs will be engraved the same. Is it a chamber dimension issue? Or is it a barrel issue? I think it's a combination. With increased engraving pressure, it is my opinion that the slug will ride up over the rifling with the wide lands, causing uneven engraving. Therefore destroying accuracy.. D

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just copied this post from another site I ran into. it's about Hastings "Paradox" barrels. Right from them.


Hi guys,

Just had a long chat with the Tech Director at Hastings. Most of the theory above was confirmed. Hastings took over the Paradox name and trademarked it about 35 years ago, intentionally playing on the H&H Paradox Rifle/Shotgun design and positive word-of-mouth concerning those guns. The early paradox designs, I am told, generally had as standard the last 9" of the barrel with rifling, and the rest of it smoothbore back to the forcing cone at the end of the chamber.
Current production Paradox barrels are rifled full length, and also have a tapered forcing cone section transitioning from the chamber to the start of the rifled bore, to allow for variable length shells. Thereis some thought being given to changing to a fixed chamber lenght without that taper, thought being that some tiny bit of wobble may be introduced in that gap when using shorter shells in these genral purpose chambers.

Oddly enough, there are still "Paradox" style barrels being made today, by Hastings, with only the last 9" of the barrel being rifled. These are made for export to Japan, where fully rifled shotgun barrels by law make the weapon a "Rifle" which is illegal for citizens to own in that country.

These are created by taking a normal rifled "Paradox" barrel and honing out the rifling from the chamber forward to the magical 9" from the muzzle position.

So, if you really feel the need to recreate the old H&H PARADOX GUN, and don't want to spend the $70,000.00 on the task, then a Hastings Export barrel will do it.

As to twist rates, etc. I'm also told that Paradox 12 gauge barrels are all 1/34 twist, and the 20 gauge are all 1/24 twist. Anybody looking for the slowest twist rate in a 12 gauge, which in theory should impart the most spin to the slug due to less skidding in the barrel, should be looking at Mossberg, who uses a 1/36 twist.

Of course, using high speed sabots in an Aluminum frame lightweight pump gun seems to me to be not the cleverest move one could make.

Insider info from high speed photography seems to indicate that slower twist rates actually do produce morespin with increasing velocities, while the 1/24 works best with lesser velocity loads. Seems counter-intuitive, but "them's what the pictures show" Folks at Hastings maintain that their choices of twist rates were made based on analysis of range results with the full spread of muzzle velocities and slug designs available.
Of course every manufacturer has a slightly different twist, so you'd have to assume each Company would have a good story to tell about the choices they made.

There is also 100% confirmation that eliminating rifling length reduces spin which diminishes downrange accuracy. The longer the barrel and the rifling, the more spin, and the tighter the groups at distance. Probably the ONLY 100% predictable result in anything to do with firearms.

We also got into some theory on hammer milling versus button rifling, etc. and land/groove shapes and definition that result from the different processes, but that's fodder for a whole other round of argument...

As an aside, those Hornaday High Speed firecrackers seem to exit most slug guns with relatively less spin than any other sabots, altough they are flying at light speed Warp Five, so there is some question in the minds of a few of us concerning what the point of the extra speed is, if you lose downrange accuracy once the load speed gets too fast for the guns everybody uses?

_________________
Come Visit With Us, and Let's Make Some Noise. www.slugshooting.com Don't bother the site is corrupted with a popup.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

One of the reasons I haven't pursued getting the Lyman Foster slug to shoot better is that I hate my mould! It is the most stubborn, cantankerous mould I have ever used! It has always cast poorly and the slugs tend to stick on the core pin. I don't think I ever took the time to polish it but the angle isn't enough for decent release anyway... in my opinion. I've made moulds that cast better and make better slugs... at least they are more accurate so why bother?

What you might try is to use a chunk of 12 ga. barrel and a flat or cup nose punch to swell the Lyman slug to bore diameter. I hadn't actually thought of that but one of the fellows whose handle I forgot posted that recently and says it works pretty well. The other was SluggerDoug who made a "knurler" from helical gears to impress "rifling" into the slug and bring it up to bore diameter. SluggerDoug also said that made the Lyman slug more accurate. Basically, get it to bore diameter and accuracy improves.

My TC slug gets knurled to bore diameter for my single shot which runs 0.733" where the slug casts at 0.729". I haven't tried them in my Slugster yet but will. It runs 0.729"/0.730" so should be about perfect fit. Blood Trail tested these and they did okay from rifled gun but nothing spectacular.

A solid lead slug from a metallic cartridge is likely the best bet. I'm with Cap'n Morgan on that. Cartridges (or chamber filling "adaptors") made to reduced volume and that will align those slugs should remove some of the inherent inaccuracies of components that we are all fighting. A guy would not want to be leaving those in the field after shooting though so maybe not so practical for hunting using repeating guns. You'd definitely want to be keeping an eye on ejected hulls!

You could use brass, copper or zinc in those Hammerhead wads. They are actually a pretty nice set up and offer some good options for slugs and obviously they are accurate. I wish they made a smoothbore version. I am a bit surprised they don't work well in smoothbore but apparently not.

A guy with a lathe could make his own non-discarding sabots using nylon, polyethylene, Delrin or likely some other plastics but it would be a bit tedious unless you had CNC or made tooling to get consistent turning and boring sizes. I still like AQ design with solid tail wad rather than cushion leg... or Breneneke Classic.

One man's opinion.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yeah, I've looked at Brass Shells however in the guns I have they just won't work. The A5 would chuck them and so would the pump guns.

I see them as strictly for Break Barrel Guns or maybe a Bolt Gun where you can control the ejection and keep the shells close.

The other problem with the Foster Slugs is they don't fit any wad I have. Mine are around .695 in dia. The mould sucks and is the 2nd most worst Lyman mould I have ever owned . I had a .357 173 gr SWC mould I never got a good boolit out of. It lives elsewhere now.

Making alternative slugs for the ST wads is no problem at all, brass cuts real nice. The Sabots could be made as well in any configuration and the collapsing base of the ST Sabots worries me.

We all know the immortal words of E.Keith when he said the "back end is the steering end." It seems logical that, that phrase would apply here just as much as on a Handgun Boolit.

The sabot could be a cylinder with a hole in the front for the slug, and countersunk rear with a sharp edge to act as the gas seal. Maybe some driving bands to lessen the friction. Seems like it might work.

On another note: I watched 4 of the "Wild Boar Fever" episodes on the Outdoor Channel tonight. Most guys are shooting rifles with Aimpoint red dots on them. However I saw one guy with an O/U Shotgun. And I suspect that if the show wasn't sponsored by Sauer and Sons you'd see more.

I think the A5 would work well for shooting running Russian Boars. I already have a small mount for my Burris Fast-Fire 3 figured out to replace the rear sight on the rifled barrel. I figure if it could stand running on an auto pistol, it should be able to survive on a slow moving Shotgun Barrel. We'll see what Happens?

Randy

[longbow]

Trying not to drift off topic here so keeping to the Hammerhead title, I was reading yesterday (should have copied the article) that sabot slugs slip in the sabots so don't pick up the fairly fast 1:36" +/- rifling twist totally.

The comments were that the fast twist was chosen for that reason ~ due to slippage the slugs don't reach full twist rate spin. If that's true then I'd expect slippage to vary with slugs especially where you can (or could) buy sabots then cast your own boolits to put into the sabots. If the boolits aren't a very tight fit or keyed to the sabot or knurled or something, I'd expect variations in slippage so resulting in variations is spin rate.

Also commented was that slower twist rates showed less slippage, using high speed photography.

What wasn't mentioned was how full bore slugs responded to the different rifling twists because there should not be any slippage of a proper fitting full bore slug. The rifling left on my 0.735" RB's from a rifled Remington barrel was crisp and clear so no skidding there. I'm betting Hogtamer's Zlugs don't skid in a rifled bore either!

Now both Ranch Dog and BT say these Hammerheads are very tight fit so maybe they don't slip but if there is any truth to the slippage story I can believe that wad slugs like Lee and Lyman slip at least if fit isn't good and tight.

Based on type of projectile style, I'd expect the Hammerheads would be happy with a round ball twist as would most Foster slugs, round balls and the Lyman 525 gr. slugs.

I still think the fast twist maybe detrimental to big 'ol slugs that don't need to be spun that fast if for no other reason than any imperfections, voids, dross inclusions may lie a long ways from the centerline so have more effect on balance when spun. This would be more exaggerated in an HB slug where the mass lies well away from the centerline and there is reduced mass where the HB is so a given size void or whatever would tend to have more effect.

I am well underway on my slow twist rifled choke tube now but have to sharpen the cutter so a bit annoying when half way through rifling! I'm trying muriatic acid to see if that will work because I don't want to remove and replace the cutter. Hopefully this all turns out well. If so I will obviously be trying out bore diameter balls and slugs but would also be interested in Hammerheads to see if my theory is right on spin rate. An issue there might be plastic failure when hitting the rifling at 1200 to 1500 FPS. It's a slow twist but still...

Longbow

P.S. Hahahahaha! Reading back it was Randy that posted that info on twist rates and slippage a page back in this very thread! I guess my short term memory is a bit flawed! I blame it on a misspent youth. I did remember the article but not where I read it. DOH! However, still valid info.

[bikerbeans]

Remington Buckhammers solved the problem of the slug slipping inside a plastic wad. The nose of the buckhammer slug was the same diameter as the plastic wad so both the slug and wad engaged the rifling. It's a shame buckhammers went out of production, they were the most accurate 12ga slugs i ever shot.

BB

[Ranch Dog]

The image is yesterday's 100-yard target. The wind was out of control crazy, but I just had to do some shooting.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Casting/sabot_tech/targets/120118_01.jpg

The MOA is slightly better than the last 100-yard target, but the win is that was a 3-shot group vs. this 5-shot group. The 37.5-grain charge is a bit too much for the 2¾" star crimp. When I retrieve the loaded rounds for the range, the folds were raised a bit, so I had to reseat the fold. That might have affected the group size as well. I hope to shoot yet this afternoon, going to return to the 37-grains.

[Ranch Dog]

Longbow, I've been thinking about slippage as of late especially with the Lee/Lyman and the petals of a pressure wad. Has anyone tried a product like MP-1 as a base filler and bit on the insides of the pressure wad petals?

The STI sabot has spines molded in it, and I have a bunch of these laying in the dirt where the slugs have gone on into the berm. I see very good groove engraving, and it doesn't look like it is slipping. Same with the interior. I wouldn't mind if the sabot just stayed with the slug. That is what got me thinking about the MP-1, just a dab on the base of the slug before it is pressed into the sabot.

[longbow]

Not sure much of anything will stick well to a smooth lead slug. A bit of knurling would not only make the slug a tighter fit to sabot but also give the glue something to grab.

If those Hammerheads are as tight in the sabots as you say they make be okay. I think the comments in the info Randy posted were aimed at typical sabots carrying copper jacket bullets which would be pretty slick and trying to spin up in a fast twist may just result in some slip.

I'd think Lee and Lyman wad slugs could easily slip. There knurling makes sense or sure.

Keying the slug to sabot or making the nose full bore to engrave would do it too.

Longbow

[Ranch Dog]

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. The 100-yard shooting this evening in a calm wind was absolutely awful. They stayed on an 8.5x11 target but that is about all I can say. Maybe, its time for a break.

[W.R.Buchanan]

They need wind to stabilize them... [smilie=b:[smilie=b:

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. The 100-yard shooting this evening in a calm wind was absolutely awful. They stayed on an 8.5x11 target but that is about all I can say. Maybe, its time for a break.

There's the slug shooting I know.

[jonp]

That was my thought too ... so I PC'd some of my 12 and 20 gauge Lyman sabot slugs! (I just haven't had a chance to load and shoot any of them yet. My thinking was that they might be visible in flight ... sort of like a sabot slug "tracer" ...)

https://i.imgur.com/AIBAaLI.jpg

Seriously, you think that might work? Maybe?

[Ranch Dog]

Great responses guys! Gotta laugh at this for sure. I sure was tempted, the wind came up, and I thought it might just need that. I refrained and did ranch stuff.

I ran the game cams again and no hogs, so no rush. I thought about messing with the smoothbore barrel on my Mossberg after I shoot my SMLE #4 MkI. I'm going to take that rifle with me in two weeks and try to get on a "standby" hunt on a Wildlife Management Area as I need a change in scenery for a few days.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/SMLE%20%234MI/scout/images/SMLE_scout_01.jpg

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/SMLE%20%234MI/scout/images/SMLE_scout_02.jpg

[Hogtamer]

RD I can't believe no one has mentioned the phase of the moon as regards slug casting and shooting. 14% waning is an awful day to shoot. It would have been ok to cast today though. Plus all the earthquake activity in Alaska makes the heavy elements do strange stuff. Nope, just not a good day to shoot! :bigsmyl2:

[Ranch Dog]

RD I can't believe no one has mentioned the phase of the moon as regards slug casting and shooting. 14% waning is an awful day to shoot. It would have been ok to cast today though. Plus all the earthquake activity in Alaska makes the heavy elements do strange stuff. Nope, just not a good day to shoot! :bigsmyl2:
Actually, I knew it wasn't a day to shoot when my dad's tomcat chased my Treeing Coon Hound! That's a sign that everything is upside down.

[Hogtamer]

Oh no! I see a calculator on your bench. There's no ciphering in slugs, it just don't add up!

[bikerbeans]

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. The 100-yard shooting this evening in a calm wind was absolutely awful. They stayed on an 8.5x11 target but that is about all I can say. Maybe, its time for a break.

I thought that type of range trip just happened to me.

BB

[W.R.Buchanan]

Got my Mould and Sabots today and will cast up some slugs this afternoon. These sabots are pretty stout and I don't see alot of deformation.

I do however see a definite possibility for a machined version. I noticed that the gas seal on the STI Sabot is not perfect. Since the back end is the steering end, that could affect accuracy.

A machined version wouldn't have that variable.

The thing would be a cylinder of your chosen diameter with some driving bands and a recessed base that would flare to seal. The front would have a hole for the Hammer Head to be pressed in..

Brass Hammer Heads could be made too for use in Eco Conscious States.

I see possibilities here.

Randy

[Blood Trail]

I saw on accurate mold website, they offer the hammer head slug in multi cavities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[longbow]

That Hammerhead idea would work for machined brass, copper or zinc as well as cast zinc and of course lead. A guy might get away with a Brenneke like slug in non-lead too though you'd need more length to make up for lower density. That is certainly a possibility we may all wind up with in the future ~ non-lead projectiles. You may not be alone Randy!

Hmmmmm... if Accurate has a mould for Hammerheads a guy could get Tom to make the nose larger diameter so it would engage rifling then there would be no slippage possible.

A little off topic but still slugs and guiding them to the target... My order of Lee stuff came in from Titian yesterday, amazingly since Canada Post has been off work with rotating strikes. In that order are core pins for my Lee slug moulds. I plan to drill and ream a tapered shank in the middle so I can put a screw in and attached a couple of 16 ga. felt wads Brenneke like (yes, I like Brenneke's!). I'll try those in my smoothbore but I'd be curious as to how they'd work in rifled gun too. Tight fitting hard felt should help pick up that spin.

What hasn't shown up is my M-Carbo spring set for the Slugster.

Yeah, slug shooting and phases of the moon, tidal influence, humidity, global warming, black magic, you name it! it all seems to have an effect. And seldom a good effect... look what lack of wind did for you!

[W.R.Buchanan]

You didn't mention "How you are holding your mouth when shooting." Remember, everything matters.

I want to see your Lee Slug moulds with the mods. Going to put the Lyman mould up for sale on Ebay as it is not working for me.

Wouldn't sell it to someone here as I don't want the grief. Should be able to get my money back on that one.

Are you planning on a blank pin that eliminates the drive key?

Randy

[Ranch Dog]

I will be refraining from slug shooting today, as, during our morning walk across the pasture, my hound peed on the "don't shoot slugs today" tree. Centerfires are okay, but slugs would be a disaster.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/family/dogs/laurel/laurel_15.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

So what's his name? Looks like a pretty good dog?

Here's #1 for me. The mould ran so good I made 92 of them. Strait Wheel Weights and 486-489 gr. with Sabot.

Sabot is 77 gr so Slug is 409-411 gr.

I thought these were supposed to be more like 500 gr? Does strait lead make that much difference?

Can't wait to get the A5 back from Art's Gun Shop. Expecting great things.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

I'm guessing your Lee slug mould question was aimed at me (no pun intended!)?

My current plan is to sort out stem diameter to suit a decent size wood screw (#6 or maybe #8?) then drill the core pin to the bottom of the drive key slot then taper ream so it will release okay. For short term use I'll simply drill a starter hole using my lathe but if the Lee/Brenneke (BrenneLee? or maybe Leenneke?) shows promise I'll add a spike to make the starter hole. That works well on my push out moulds.

I will leave the drive key as It won't be easy to fill I don't think though one poster used an epoxy with success though I suspect it will gradually burn out or break down from the heat. I can make a core pin for a push out mould if I don't want the drive key. I'll leave it also because it does keep wads out of the cavity. With an attached wad system these will be nose heavy regardless. I'm thinking 2 x 1/4" felt wads screwed on and with stiff leather or plastic washer top and bottom to protect the felt.

I'll post pics when I get done.

Right now I am working on modifying my rifling cutter. I let it soak in vinegar for a day and that did sharpen it up but the life was short lived so I'll go to a hook or scrape type cutter to finish off the choke tube. I'll make a face I can touch up with a diamond hone.

Looking at those Hammerheads I would think they'd shoot okay from smoothbore but apparently not. I guess just not enough nose forward weight.

I'll agree with you on machining a solid attached wad... that is with no cushion leg. I think that should make the Hammerhead better by eliminating the cushion leg which must distort some at least.

The AQ slugs have a solid attached wad with quite deep vanes in them:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/AQ-Slug-lead-12ga-25-per-kit-unassembled/productinfo/0151000L/

okay then they aren't really solid but they don't have a cushion leg to distort.

I like AQ's as much as Brenneke's!

No reason a Hammerhead slug on a solid attached wad shouldn't be very accurate. They seem to do pretty well as is... at least when it is windy!

Longbow

[Ranch Dog]

So what's his name? Looks like a pretty good dog?
Thanks, he is a great dog and his name is Laurel. A year ago, I was volunteering at the local adoption center. I worked in the big dog barn and met him there. Big dogs don't move and he really tugged at me every week so, I took him home.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/family/dogs/Laurel_01.jpg


Here's #1 for me. The mould ran so good I made 92 of them. Strait Wheel Weights and 486-489 gr. with Sabot.

Sabot is 77 gr so Slug is 409-411 gr.

I thought these were supposed to be more like 500 gr? Does strait lead make that much difference?
Looks great! Reference the load card the total ejection weight should be 490-grains. I cast mine with 6/4 linotype/ww and the total is 472-grains.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Casting/sabot_tech/data/12gaSPW-Data_9-2018.jpg

[Ranch Dog]

Well, I have hogs. Given their arrival time, I will need to see them several nights in a row to make sure they are consistent. That is a late sit!

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/ranch/blinds_&_feeders/2/images/120518_01.jpg

It will be a 75-yard shot. Next two nights we have heavy thunderstorms forecast so will see where they are after that.

[Huntsman]

So what's his name? Looks like a pretty good dog?

Here's #1 for me. The mould ran so good I made 92 of them. Strait Wheel Weights and 486-489 gr. with Sabot.

Sabot is 77 gr so Slug is 409-411 gr.

I thought these were supposed to be more like 500 gr? Does strait lead make that much difference?

Can't wait to get the A5 back from Art's Gun Shop. Expecting great things.

Randy

Randy, I’m pouring mine with pure lead.
I haven’t weighed them yet but they shoot good out to 50 and all are inside a paper plate at 100.

[Ranch Dog]

While shooting my SMLE scout rifle Friday, I saw a Hammerhead laying in the rubble that was generated from the 303 British bullets striking the berm.

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Casting/sabot_tech/casting/MSH-12G_04.jpg

I didn't weigh it but think any loss is negligible. I can notice some rotation on the "shaft" of the slug. It would be impossible to know if that is slippage while in the barrel, enroute to the target, or at sabot ejection. I do find almost all of the sabot's laying on the berm.

A week or so ago, I was walking down my shooting range and at about 150-yards, I found a spent Lightfield. The only one that I know of that didn't go into the berm was possibly the one shot I made at my steel target (100-yards). I bet that projectile sounded like a buzzsaw!

https://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/512/images/lightfield_richochet.jpg

[Loudenboomer]

Mike I'd be interested to know if there is a velocity drag penalty from the non discarding style slug VS a standard foster style. I'd imagine the penalty would be slight at 100. Be fun to know if there is a formula.

[Ranch Dog]

It would be tough to measure.

[Loudenboomer]

231806 Not a real slug but it sure slows down in a hurry when I open the laundry bag! (:

[megasupermagnum]

Mike I'd be interested to know if there is a velocity drag penalty from the non discarding style slug VS a standard foster style. I'd imagine the penalty would be slight at 100. Be fun to know if there is a formula.

The difference is negligible. The non-discarding tail hurts the slug tremendously compared to a plain base slug/bullet, but is on par with a hollow base foster. A good comparison is the LBC sabot. Both sighted in at 100 yards, a sabot slug like the SST at 2000 fps will drop 10"-12", the LBC at 2000 fps will drop 30"-36". A foster slug like the truball at 1600 fps, will also drop about 30-36". Inside of 100 yards, even a round ball is within it's point blank range (plus or minus 3") if shot at over 1100 fps.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I do enjoy the trials involved with pushing the envelope. Development does carry a price tag in every avenue of progress.
Then the thought just occurred to me... I am so thankful I have river bottoms to slink about. Our corn cruncher this year was taken at the extreme distance of 25 yards with a bow.


So how about a "cylinder shape" slug powder coated to whatever diameter so it is groove plus ? No slipping or at least minimal.. No expensive sabot to discard. Maybe even a round ball. This may have been run already and I missed it. Sadly down here there I have no rifled barrel to try.. Guberment gets testy seeing certain items in a suitcase.