Savage 10MLS Availability? Prices?!

[Bert2368]

I read about these, liked the idea, then researched and briefly looked at price & availability on various gun auction sites a few years after they stopped making them- 2012? Didn't have a need (or extra cash for a toy) so I moved on.

My state (MN) decided to let us use scopes on muzzle loaders in 2017, I didn't know that until very recently. Being able to use glass has pushed me over the edge, I'm getting an ML deer tag.

Looked for the Savage 10MLS- And found very few, mostly offered as auctions, prices were already rather more expensive than when new.

Have I completely missed the boat on these?

[arcticap]

Many discontinued guns increase in value.
One blue Savage sold for $650 at the end of Oct. on Gunbroker and another SS model currently has a buy it now price of $700 with a $500 opening bid required.

The prices seem to be based on demand.
I remember when they weren't very easy to sell.
How much do you think that they're worth or would you be willing to pay?

The selling venue is important.
There are many live gun auctions, local gun shops and private sellers where bargains can still probably be found.
The market is not too much different than trying to find a bargain on a Ruger Old Army except many more ROA's were produced over a period of many years so more are available.

There are many companies that either make entire custom smokeless muzzle loaders or convert other guns into them. The prices can depend on how much work is required.

Just look at the price increases for a lot of imported muzzle loaders over the last 5-10 years.
The world demand and value of money has changed significantly over that time, and the marketplace for some guns has changed right along with it.
It's more than just the price of oil, gold or the stock market that can double or triple.
When a gun model occupies a niche market, then dealers step in to try to make a living selling them.
When the value of a new custom one is so expensive, then used models are bound to go up in value unless you can expend the effort to hunt one down.
It's not likely that one will just fall into your lap at a low price without searching high and low for one over a period of time.

[Moleman-]

I wanted one when they were making them but never got one before they were discontinued. A couple years back I had a chance to get one at a good price and jumped on it. Shoots good, is easy to maintain, and I regret not getting one before.

[megasupermagnum]

Muzzleloader season started 3 days ago. You might be a bit late to the party by the time you source a Savage.

You can get a TC Impact for $200 at fleet farm, mine has been every bit as accurate as the Encore. They take the same scope base as the Encore, and you can pick up Blackhorn 209 there too. Blackhorn 209 isn't smokeless powder, but it's darn close. The last two years I fouled the bore a few days before the season, ran a few dry patches until cleanish, cleaned the breech plug, loaded on day 1, and put tape on the muzzle. I make sure to keep the gun outside from that point on, but leave it loaded for the season.

[Bert2368]

Muzzleloader season started 3 days ago. You might be a bit late to the party by the time you source a Savage.

You can get a TC Impact for $200 at fleet farm

I have a .54 in line muzzle loader, picked it up at the last MN Weapons Collector show. (Also a functional but too small for deer .32 cal. antique cap lock ML inherited from my father).

Someone had a "no name" Italian mfg. .54 in line ML which had apparently been fired less than 30 times judging by what was missing from the boxes of projectiles and 209 primers. Came complete with a couple of boxes of Lyman .54 sabots with either .44 jacketed or swaged lead projectiles, 100 swaged round balls, lube, patches, two different types of powder measure, several sleeves of 209 primers, tools, spares such as breech plug & etc.- But no manual.

A tag on the goody box said "no powder". Not true, Pyrodex and filled chargers were in there too. Plus, someone had removed the factory forward mounted open notch rear sight, installing a Lyman aperture sight at the rear scope mount position.

$170 all in, the extras made it a nice starter package. Already have plenty of real BP in several types, I use it at work.

Anyone recognize this piece? Nothing stamped on it but .54 cal. and "made in Italy".

I am a huge tool nerd, so I'm looking ahead at what's out there. This gun show find will certainly kill a deer in the meantime, at least if the deer will cooperate.

[arcticap]

I recall seeing an Italian plunger style inline with a wood stock and a blue barrel that resembled my Lyman Cougar at a gunshow on more than one occasion maybe 5-10 years ago.
The Cougar was made by Investarms and was on selling for $150 new old stock after being discontinued.
The rifle that I saw was brand new old stock being sold by a "home dealer" for $99.
The action just wasn't as smooth as the Cougar, otherwise it was like a knock off or clone of it.
The early plunger actions used a #11 cap and had a slam bolt ignition system which were popular at the time.
I thought that it may have been made by Palmetto, but the reality is that I have no idea who made them, and Palmetto may have already been out of business by that time.
Palmetto would have had a small palm tree as a maker's mark.
If it's Italian then it should have Italian proof marks.
Navy Arms imported a similar Chinese inline for $99 except with a plastic stock.
But the rifle I saw could have been made by any small Italian outfit, just like many Italian shotguns, there's a plethora of small Italian outfits that made them over the years.
Does yours look similar to the Cougar?

Here's a photo of my .54 Lyman Cougar. I think some Italian outfit tried to copy the Cougar, but I'm pretty sure that it would be stamped Lyman if it were a Cougar:--->>> https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2707975&postcount=8

Here's some spec's on the Cougar:--->>> http://www.vintagepaperads.com/1997-Lyman-Cougar-In-Line-Muzzleloader-Ad_p_59161.html

Here's a Gun Digest photo with description:--->> https://www.ebay.com/itm/LYMAN-RIFLES-BLACKPOWDER-DEERSTALKER-WITH-SPECIFICATIONS-PRICES-1999-/222202729267

[Bert2368]

Sorry to not get some pics up sooner, I was busy, then I was hunting, then Saturday, I got a deer.

Here are some pictures of the little "slam fire" no name muzzle loader.

I found a hand written note in a container with the original rear sight. It called the ML a "Ranger". No manufacturer name. There IS a serial #, but what good is that without knowing whos #.

I would LOVE to get my hands on a copy of the correct manual, I figured some of it out on my own and from "similar looking ML" manuals, but I'm a compulsive manual reader. Especially would like to see the recommended loads.

[arcticap]

Yes, that resembles the rifle that I've seen at gun shows in the past.
But I did not recall that model being made to use a 209 primer.

In photo #2, to the right of where it's stamped "made in Italy" there is a circle with a palm tree inside of it.
That's the maker's mark for Palmetto or Palmetto Arms.
I'm pretty sure that they went out of business, or went in and out of business more than once.
They made a variety of muzzle loader pistols, rifles and revolvers from very cheap to quite expensive.
Some models were rare and desirable, while others were considered to be of low quality.


But by doing a Google search I found that the model was named the "Ridge Runner" by Palmetto Arms.
This reputable seller may be able to provide you with a copy of the owner's manual if you asked them and they still have any:--->>> https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/muzzleloading-rifles---modern---replica-percussion/ridge-runner-54-cal-in-line-percussion-muzzleloader--on-sale-.cfm?gun_id=101133450

I think that they may still list them on their website for $165.

It appears that the model was originally imported by Century Arms:--->>> https://www.shootersforum.com/muzzleloaders/16788-palmetto-line-54-rifle.html

Congratulations on bagging your deer.
The Ridge Runner rifle served you well.
And thanks for the photos.

[M-Tecs]

For more info on them Doug's Message board.
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/board/23/savage-smokeless-muzzleloading

And Luke's site http://www.arrowheadsporting.com/

I have both the original Savage Smokeless and the savage MLII. If are looking at a smokeless muzzle loader I would recommend looking at the full form designs to eliminate the sabots.

I am currently out out town. I should be back on Wednesday. I will have more time to chat then.

[Bert2368]

Thanks again, everyone.

I will pursue the manuals, even if I pass this one on after finding a smokeless version, I wouldn't feel good passing it on without precise load information.

I found generic scope mounts to fit this at Walmart, less than $10.00. Going to slap a scope on and bore sight it this afternoon, friend who doesn't own an ML missed out during rifle deer, he doesn't do iron sights well.

AND the Lyman peep sight is at uppermost limit of vertical adjustment but STILL shooting low at 100 yards- I can compensate, but wouldn't want to hand it off to someone else shooting low.

[FergusonTO35]

I read about these, liked the idea, then researched and briefly looked at price & availability on various gun auction sites a few years after they stopped making them- 2012? Didn't have a need (or extra cash for a toy) so I moved on.

My state (MN) decided to let us use scopes on muzzle loaders in 2017, I didn't know that until very recently. Being able to use glass has pushed me over the edge, I'm getting an ML deer tag.

Looked for the Savage 10MLS- And found very few, mostly offered as auctions, prices were already rather more expensive than when new.

Have I completely missed the boat on these?

You may want to check out Smokeless Muzzleloaders Inc. They build smokeless barrels for H&R/NEF frames, you could buy one of those barrels plus a donor action for about half the cost of a Savage.

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks again, everyone.

I will pursue the manuals, even if I pass this one on after finding a smokeless version, I wouldn't feel good passing it on without precise load information.

I found generic scope mounts to fit this at Walmart, less than $10.00. Going to slap a scope on and bore sight it this afternoon, friend who doesn't own an ML missed out during rifle deer, he doesn't do iron sights well.

AND the Lyman peep sight is at uppermost limit of vertical adjustment but STILL shooting low at 100 yards- I can compensate, but wouldn't want to hand it off to someone else shooting low.

It shouldn't be a problem to screw on a lower ramp and sight from Williams or Marble's. I had the opposite problem on my NEF Huntsman, the Williams WGRS rear (same as yours) was adjusted as low as it would go. A front ramp and sight about .050 taller solved the problem.

[Squeeze]

the gun works still shows NOS in .54 $165 http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=1468&do=detail&Cat2Option=no

[Tackleberry41]

Shop near me has a stainless Savage for $999, comes w a scope presume to justify the price.

[NSB]

I read about these, liked the idea, then researched and briefly looked at price & availability on various gun auction sites a few years after they stopped making them- 2012? Didn't have a need (or extra cash for a toy) so I moved on.

My state (MN) decided to let us use scopes on muzzle loaders in 2017, I didn't know that until very recently. Being able to use glass has pushed me over the edge, I'm getting an ML deer tag.

Looked for the Savage 10MLS- And found very few, mostly offered as auctions, prices were already rather more expensive than when new.

Have I completely missed the boat on these?
If you don't end up with one, don't feel too bad about it. I had two of them and although they're fine muzzle loaders, they don't end up to be much of a real advantage in the real world. I had one modified by adding an aftermarket target barrel and a few other parts from Lukes. The gun would shoot sabotless or saboted bullets and was very accurate. However, thinking that it becomes a three hundred yard gun with magical velocities is more hype than reality. Yes, you can get some very good MV out of these guns and yes, they are accurate. However, in spite of all the time and money I put in to these guns, my TC Encore will do just about anything I want to do in the field without all the gyrations required to get these things up and running. I can shoot 1moa with my TC and I can do that with black powder subs and all copper bullets with great results and virtually no hoops to jump through. Now, I'm not picking on anyone who wants to get a Savage ML and enjoy spending time playing with it and getting great results after spending a lot of money and time at the bench. It's a great hobby. If you're looking at simply getting a very accurate ML that will shoot deer out to 150 yards or so, just get the TC and go out and have some fun hunting. It's pretty much just sight in and go hunting without all the muss and fuss. Target shows one sighter and then three after adjustments at 114 yards with Encore and BH209 with Barnes bullet. Bullet recovered from deer shot at 98 yards.
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[Bert2368]

Well, I am one of those tinkerers who spend more time loading, testing and punching paper than hunting- So the Savage ML being requireing a bit of work isn't a flaw, it's a FEATURE!

The nice people at "The Gunworks" got back to me, they're going to send me a scan of one of the original manuals and a spare 209 style nipple complete with the retention spring. Called me on a Sunday afternoon, that's customer service!

Will play with the old Ridge Runner a bit longer, then check finances available for new toys after the Xmas/New Year's madness is over...

I did find the correct scope bases for the Ridge Runner, two of the Weaver #48061 bases fit the milled flats and factory threaded holes perfectly (gunsmith who provided these just called them "Weaver 61"). Mounted a 2-7X32 I found in the bottom of a drawer, should be good enough for punching some paper during load development.


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[arcticap]

The nice people at "The Gunworks" got back to me, they're going to send me a scan of one of the original manuals and a spare 209 style nipple complete with the retention spring. Called me on a Sunday afternoon, that's customer service!


That's fantastic!
I'm so glad that you located it.
Thanks for the update.

[charlie b]

I have wondered how hard it would be to make up a ML barrel for my Savage Axis.

I can get a barrel in .450 Marlin. Design and machine a breech plug that would carry a 209 pimer and match up to the current boltface. Have the breech threaded for the plug.

But, after all that, I could probably buy a really nice inline, like a CVA Accura, for less money.

For now I can just mess with my Lyman Great Plains Hunter.

[arcticap]

I heard that CVA is coming out with a new .45 muzzle loader with a very fast twist...soon.

[charlie b]

Now that will probably tempt me to spend some money!