What can I do with this bore?

[Caseylain]

230820

Hi.

I'm kind of new to shooting cast and powder coated bullets. I just got this old Mosin M44. Had a really dark, rusted up barrel. I was able to clean it up a good bit after plugging the barrel and filling it with evapo-rust, then rinsing it and running a bore snake with CLP through it many many times. Unfortunately my Camera just refuses to take a good bore pic so this is the best I can come up with. There are a few visible pits in the lands near the muzzle end that I couldn't get in the picture.


Anyway, my question is will I be able to shoot cast boolits out of this gun? How about powder coated boolits? plated boolits? I read that boolits coated in alox worked for some folks with rough bores.

This gun has one of the smoothest actions on a Mosin I've seen, and bubba's had his way with the trigger because it has no travel or creep. Just wall and break. I really want this thing to be a shooter but I have to contend with this sewer pipe barrel. Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys.

[John McCorkle]

Eeesh, I guess it depends on what you are expecting when you say "shooter". It'll go bang and it may print a group of sorts but short of that you may not know till you try out ....with that pitting though I wouldn't get my hopes up for great results...and I'd expect some leading

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[Caseylain]

Yeah group size isn't as important as not getting leading. Not a fan of scrubbing lead from a barrel.

[merlin101]

WOW that is bad! I wonder if you could polish it up some by shooting a few cast with valve grinding compound on them, what do you have to lose?

[Stephen Cohen]

I have never used evapo-rust as it will probably remove rust from the deep pits which is not always a good idea in my view. I would have tried a few paper patched cast to see if they smoothed over the rust pits. This may still be an option you could try. Regards Stephen

[mrrch]

Load some up and shoot it. It may clean up. Worked for my GEW88.

[Caseylain]

I may also just try selling the rifle, but it wouldn't hurt to try and polish the barrel some more I guess.

[eric123]

I would fire lap and see what happens...

[waco]

JB bore compound.

[Dieselhorses]

Don't shoot anymore lead cast bullets! Get some jacketed ammo and shoot an entire box. Check it again and if still reeks of lead streaks acquire some "Chore Boy" COPPER cleaning pads and go to town with Hoppe's. If THAT doesn't work, you have no other choice but to either have a professional "lap" bore or resort to hydrogen peroxide and vinegar mix (50/50) and soak barrel. Do NOT soak barrel over night! Soak for about 2 hours, drain, rinse and conventionally scrub with Hoppe's and copper brush. Correct me (anyone) if I'm wrong but I had to do this with my 500 S&W to attain original shape of bore.

[Caseylain]

230834

Got a better picture of the bore after cleaning it some more.

I've never done fire lapping or paper patching and I don't think I'm set up to do those things anyway.

The JB compound sounds interesting I may try that.

[Gtek]

Shoot one, clean one for a few it may clean up more than you think it will. I have pushed Scotchbrite, 0000 steel wool, etc., just clean and check after each move. Chamber to muzzle and pull whatever off rod end before retract.

[303Guy]

If the bore condition is consistent right up to the muzzle then you should be able to get it to shoot. Your bore is way better than my Lee Enfield bore yet I got mine to shoot but with paper patching.

I have fired plain cast through it but with the idea of smoothing off the sharp edges. I used a fat heavy boolit smeared with AutoSol polishing compound and these passed through the bore without any leading. Some got into the chamber which polished the cases on firing. Recovered boolits showed no failure and there was no leading so the stuff does work as a 'lube'. But it's too fine and actually did nothing. Scotch brite is is a better option and better yet is valve grinding paste on a steel wool jag. I've also smeared grinding paste through the bore and fired a cast boolit.

This is an Autosol 'lubed' boolit.
https://i.postimg.cc/cLHwZvyX/256gr_I_mold_AUTOSOL_001.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I won't try the same technique with grinding paste as it does get into the chamber.

This bore is very accurate with jacketeds.
https://i.postimg.cc/Y05h9fdJ/TWO-GROOVE_BORE_003.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I do use a lube which I call waxy-lube that is applied to the boat tail base of the boolit by melting the lube and dipping the boolit base in. This prevents any copper fouling.

Here is a recovered jacket.
https://i.postimg.cc/nzw5Lh36/MVC-201F_(2).jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I trust that will give you some hope.

P.S. That bore did not do well with cast but remember it only has two driving faces and that may not be the reason - the rifling did not shear all the way through.
https://i.postimg.cc/gJzm9Lsv/Two-Groove_PP_30gr_AR2209_5.7gr_Bran.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Mk42gunner]

I was given a similar M44. Makes me wonder just how many of the $59-$99 Mosins were done in by younger shooters having no idea how to deal with corrosive priming used in the spam cans of incredibly cheap ammo that was available everywhere in the 1990's.

At least it looks like the rifling is still strong, if a lot darker than we all would prefer in your rifle. It may clean up enough to be shootable, it may not. I wouldn't take any bets about it being good with cast, and I have no experience with powder coating.

Robert

[GregLaROCHE]

I powder coat quite a bit and have always wondered if you could mix some lapping compound with the powder coat to use in a case like this.

If the gun seems to be in such good shape otherwise, why not consider getting a new barrel. With the prices these mil surplus are going for these days, it might be a worthwhile option.

[RU shooter]

I'd shoot a few boxes of jacketed or surplus steel jacketed stuff outa it and see what happens . Give it a scrub and then try some cast bullets in it . Who knows may do just fine .

[plainsman456]

Might give paper patched boolits a try.

It is said that they will polish somewhat.

[RED BEAR]

i think the best advice i saw was shoot it and then you will know what you got . i have quite a few old surplus guns and some with less than stellar bores will surprise you. some of mine shoot better than i am capable of. i did get a cz50 with the worst barrel i have ever seen looked like concrete. that one had to replace. but i really would go and try the gun and go from there.

[clintsfolly]

Take 20cases and prime and charge with 5-7grs of Fast pistol powder. Then fill the rest of the case with cream of wheat. Seal the case mouth with bullet lube( take a small piece and with your fingers press into a strip and press the strip over the case mouth) load them in your rifle one at a time point up and in a safe place fire them. Clean and inspect the bore repeat as needed. The slug of cream of wheat will scrap/ clean the bore.

[skeettx]

Have the barrel rebored to 35 caliber and load the 358x54R, what a powerful gun :)

http://www.35caliber.com/

[bdicki]

JB bore compound.
^^^^This

[ShooterAZ]

I used unlubed paper-patched boolits with a dab of JB Bore on them, in my Mosin Nagant. It worked fantastic, and now it's one of my best cast boolit shooters. It only took about 30 rounds or so to clean it up. Your bore appears to still have strong rifling, despite looking like a sewer pipe. That is what I'd do with yours.

[upnorthwis]

I bought a 71/84 Mauser with a pitted barrel. I think it was Col. Charles Askins that recommended shooting soft lead bullets, then only clean with swab and not a brush. I did that and now it looks like a new barrel.

[GhostHawk]

I bought a pair of Mosin's, both great condition, 43-44 construction. Both slugged .314.

Shot them, cleaned, shot, removed leading. Increased boolit size, used better lube, shot, cleaned, shot cleaned. Eventually even the "dark" grooves cleaned up.

Group size continued to improve. Then I read about Ben's Liquid Lube, and I was down to pretty modest amounts of Red Dot. Cumulative result but eventually they went from minute of 5 gallon bucket at 25 yards to minute of pop can at 50. I really should play with them again one of these days. I've learned a lot since I last fired one.

All else fails, try paper patch.

[bob208]

as stated in post 14. I too wondered how many mausers , 03's and enfields were ruined in the 60's and 70's with the cheap surplus ammo. people just do not clean their rifles. I have been at the range and saw rifles tht would not shoot. I looked in the bore and could see copper streaks. people just do not take care of their tools.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Hand-lapping or fire lapping would probably help. Lots of information on that. Beartooth bullets, Midwayusa, Neco all sell kits, JB compound or JB Bore Bright would work both as fire-lap or to clean. Most barrels shoot better than they look, some are very surprising with the right bullet. Longer heavier bullets usually work better in the rough barrels. Good luck.

[Outpost75]

I have used the Askin's method successfully in several "dark but strong" bores.

First use JB and Kroil to clean as best as you can. Then use Sweet's or Shooter's Choice copper remover to be sure that all prior metal fouling is out. When you stop getting green out, repeat the JB and Kroil, then lightly oil bore and shoot mild, subsonic loads with soft bullets, wet patch, dry patch every 5 shots, don't brush. Within 100 rounds you should get no more lead out on tight Kroil patch after 5 rounds.

Then you can try somewhat heavier loads with GC bullets and COWW, wet patch and dry patch every ten until you get no lead out on a tight Kroil patch. Then you have filled pits with lead, bore will look good and shoot good. Never again shoot J-words in it and never brush. Wet patch with Kroil or Ed's Red only, one dry patch and dry chamber before shooting. Shooting any jacketed in the rifle from then non destroys the bore condition and you start over.

[mdi]

I would fire lap and see what happens...

Me too. I have a couple old military rifles with dark bores (none that bad though) and just have to shoot jacketed. I was gonna try hand lapping and/or fire lapping, but jacketed seems to be OK and not need any extra cleaning. Too bad, my loss, but I have some other rifles that cry "feed me lead"...

[GregLaROCHE]

Take 20cases and prime and charge with 5-7grs of Fast pistol powder. Then fill the rest of the case with cream of wheat. Seal the case mouth with bullet lube( take a small piece and with your fingers press into a strip and press the strip over the case mouth) load them in your rifle one at a time point up and in a safe place fire them. Clean and inspect the bore repeat as needed. The slug of cream of wheat will scrap/ clean the bore.

That’s a really interesting idea if it works. Has anyone else had experience with it?

I saw a video today about a guy who had a muzzle loader and couldn’t shoot more than two shots before the barrel was too dirty to load a third ball. It was a new gun and he kthought the problem was that he bore was left rough when it was rifled. This caused a lot more powder build up than normal.

He took scotch brite cut into small squares and with a smaller than normal jag, he went to town on it, frequently changing the scotch brite. I’m sure it took some work, but it polished up th bore and solved his problem. Make sure to use the tough stuff, not what is for pots and pans.

[GregLaROCHE]

Take 20cases and prime and charge with 5-7grs of Fast pistol powder. Then fill the rest of the case with cream of wheat. Seal the case mouth with bullet lube( take a small piece and with your fingers press into a strip and press the strip over the case mouth) load them in your rifle one at a time point up and in a safe place fire them. Clean and inspect the bore repeat as needed. The slug of cream of wheat will scrap/ clean the bore.

That’s a really interesting idea if it works. Has anyone else had experience with it?

I saw a video today about a guy who had a muzzle loader and couldn’t shoot more than two shots before the barrel was too dirty to load a third ball. It was a new gun and thought th problem was that he bore was left rough when it was rifled. This caused a lot more powder build up than normal.

He took scotch brite cut into small squares and with a smaller than normal jag, he went to town on it, frequently changing the scotch brite. I’m sure it took some work, but it polished up th bore and solved his problem. Make sure to use the tough stuff, not what is for pots and pans.

[jugulater]

That barrel is pretty rough and has some major pitting going on. On the good side the Rifling looks strong and consistent.

I have a 1936 Tula Ex-Sniper that has a barrel that is black its entire length with very worn rifling and extreme throat erosion, it rivals my WW1 Veteran Commission 1888 in barrel condition, it even slugs at .315 making it even harder to deal with. With jacketed ammo the gun shoots patterns not groups at 100 yards. with proper cast loads it will hold 5" groups at 100 yards.

it was a long journey getting everything right to make it shoot again, but with time and experimentation i made it work within acceptable tolerances.

TLDR; Just shoot it and see what happens, then go from there. the only barrel i give up on is a bulged one.

[Chainsaw.]

In the words of my signature line over on the firing line forum. “Just shoot the **** thing”

[Texas by God]

Post#19 -same discovery I made when fireforming 30-30 to 38-55 with Bullseye and Malt o Meal( I didn't have Cream of Wheat). Kind of a fun way to clean a barrel! That cereal shines the barrel like a mirror.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve been thinking a lot about your problem. There should be a way to take advantage of all the power from the cartridge to do some of the work.

I had mentioned earlier about trying to get some valve grinding compound mixed into powder coat. The problem would be getting the grit to stick before baking.

Another idea I thought about was shooting some zinc boolits through it. It’s hard to find the exact hardness of each metal, but sink could be harder than copper. Perhaps annealing or water quenching makes a big difference.

Elvis Ammo has been experimenting making zinc boolits. He had some problems, but I think they can be over come using a cast iron pot and a ladel.

Does anyone else have any ideas for lapping a bore with a harder metal or grit in the boolits ?

[samari46]

Not to start a war, but conventional wisdom regarding fire lapping has been done with regular cast bullets impregnated with valve grinding compound, JB bore paste, JB bore brite and possibly other mediums. I've actually used Dupont auto body rubbing compound (aka the red stuff) to clean up some cruddy barrels and then follow up with Dupont polishing compound (aka the white stuff). In going through many,many posts about fire lapping it has been done with standard cast bullets. Don't know what barrel makers use but probably pure lead or another lead alloy. Here's what it boils down to Controlling the lapping process. It's been done this way for centuries. From old black powder firearms to the modern ones. I would think that a zinc bullet being way harder than a standard cast bullet unless one has established a baseline on zinc would take off too much too fast. As many of you have found out when fire lapping you start out with x amount of bullets with 320 compound, then progress to x amount of bullets with 400 compound, then x amount of bullets with 600 compound and maybe finishing up with x amount of bullets with 800 compound which is the finest I have. Members who have done this on a regular basis have a good baseline in the amount bullets used at each stage.Too much lapping and the throat is looking like the Holland tunnel in NYC. It's like sanding wood. Too coarse sanding leaves deep scratches in the wood. we progressively sand with finer grits of aluminum oxide paper. Me I have a good stock of silicone carbide paper and that is what I use when doing a stock. Because you are removing the scratches when you progressively sand the stock. Each change in the grit or grade in sandpaper removes the scratches left behind.You go to a finer grit and you start removing the scratches left behind by the previous grit and when you get to where you want to be those scratches are too fine to see with the human eye.Some members have used buffing wheels to buff and polish the wood being sanded in getting a smoother surface prior to actually putting the various finishes prior to actually putting on any stock finish. case in point, how many have picked firearm that bubba had sanded down the stock. Lotta scratches and everyone will show up. Which means you stock and resand the stock making sure you got all those scratches. While zinc is harder I feel that you won't have the control or feel using zinc rather than using a standard alloy bullet for a lap. Just my two cents worth.Besides you can cram a lot more lapping compound on a soft alloy then a hard alloy like zinc.

[mdi]

The COW (Cream of Wheat) "treatment" was fairly popular several years ago. Load some COW under a lead bullet to eliminate leading. It worked...

Fire lapping; tons of shooters/reloaders/casters have fire lapped Ruger revolver barrels (thread choke) using a light load of fast powder, any lead bullet, and Clover brand valve compound. Roll a bullet in the compound, with enough force to embed the compound and seat the bullet normally (not a lot of compound and keep it off your tools). No big deal; slug the bbl, fire lap 20 times, slug the bbl, repeat as necessary. Mirror finish along with a "straight" bbl is easily obtained. No special bullets. IIR, many "precision" rifle barrels were hand lapped, those using a soft lead lap and progressively finer compound.

[Gtek]

Cream of Wheat I would not recommend below neck in a bottle neck case. Can someone tell me the amount of pressure increase due to pushing a semi solid through a funnel? Straight wall case with the understanding of increased pressure under projectile carefully. Just a little bit of information in this game can be a very dangerous thing to the unknowing without an understanding of actions and reactions.

[GregLaROCHE]

I started thinking of using zinc because a lot of people say fire copper jackets through the barrel. With a quick search, I couldn’t find a definitive hardness for copper or zinc. I think heat treating can vary the hardness significantly. I thought maybe a little harder than copper would work better at first. But for sure, you need to be sure you aren’t taking too much off too fast. And of course the finished product will be obtained by constantly decreasing the amount removed by using finer and finer grits.

[Caseylain]

I have some polishing compound meant for acrylic glass on hand. This stuff https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UD0GIG/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I'm on a budget so I was wondering if I could fire lap with this? I should mention I know it works on metal. I used it on a Ruger American bolt that made that awful scritching sound when you slid the bolt back and forth. Covered the bolt in scratch remover and started running it back and forth. Pretty soon the white polish turned dark grey and after I was done, no more scritch and the bolt was smooth as glass.

[wmitty]

Until you shoot paper patched boolits thru a rifle it’s difficult to believe the polishing effect it has on a bore. 303guy has mentioned a number of times the Enfield barrels he has brought back from the dead. Rooskie might work too.

[Texas by God]

To be clear, I was talking of cereal use in fireforming brass using candle wax as a projectile/seal- not a bullet. You could clean a bore like this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[303Guy]

230834

Got a better picture of the bore after cleaning it some more.

I've never done fire lapping or paper patching and I don't think I'm set up to do those things anyway.

The JB compound sounds interesting I may try that.

That bore looks better than my 22 hornet. That hornet is scary accurate using Lil'Gun and a paper towel seating cup soaked in molten waxy-lube in an unsized neck. Zero copper fouling. I do use a .224 55gr bullet in the .223 groove. I've already mentioned the waxy-lube on the base of the 303 bullets loaded the conventional way. That rust pitted bore I showed earlier was cleaned out using a fire-lapping bullet I make on the lathe. Just two shots to clean out the bore and grooves and remove the sharp rust pit edges. The photo is the end result.

I've recently been using scotch brite pads for cleaning bores. I made a leade in device which is nothing more than a case with the base drilled through and opened to case body inside diameter.

This a boolit fired through the rust damaged 22 hornet,
https://i.postimg.cc/7YjsrXFg/MVC-307-F-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/WbyCHvm8/MVC-309-F-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

There was no leading from it and as can be seen, no lead was taken off the boolit.

P.S. The lower pic shows the boolit after swaging from a cast boolit.

[303Guy]

Just one small detail about fire-lapping with lead boolits - don't roll the boolit in the lapping compound until after seating the boolit. [smilie=1:

https://i.postimg.cc/DyRJR7kQ/Fire-lap_round_-_No4_003_(2).jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Well, Ok so I was seating a fat boolit into an unsized case neck, the idea being to fill those grooves.

Pressure wasn't bad. I still have that case.

The rifle it was fired in has more rust than your Mosin yet it shoots patched boolits just fine with no patch failure. (I should add that I have never taken it to the range so cannot comment on accuracy).

https://i.postimg.cc/0jjJr9ym/PRESSURE_VS_ALLOY_HARDNESS.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

(The top boolit is a harder alloy. I softened the alloy and used the same powder charge and the narrow waist filled out nicely. The knurling is to hold the patch).