Mercury alloy anyone?

[Abert Rim]

Yes, yes, I know. The EPA would have a fit, and a fella could end up "mad as a hatter," but I was just rereading Samuel Baker's 1890 book "Wild Beasts and their Way," where Baker specifies a 648-grain solid bullet of 1:10 tin or 1:13 quicksilver over 160 grains black powder in the .577 Express for use on heavy game.
Is there an experimental archaeologist in the house who has carried out any mercury alloy experiments in the name of science and curiosity?

[762cavalier]

OK maybe I'm way out in left field but I was under the impression that mercury and lead don't mix. In fact I have heard of a couple of "gunsmiths"(not sure of their credentials :grin: ) using mercury to remove a stuck bullet from the barrel. The mercury causes the lead to crystallize and become brittle.Not sure if making an alloy of them would work, but I'm sure someone else will come along to help :grin:

[Johnch]

Mercury will disolve lead , or at least the old timers I know claim it is the best way to remove lead from your barrel .
I was told to plug the barrel and fill with mercury .
When the mercury will not remove lead any more distille the lead out of the mercury and reuse it .

I have never tryed it .
Distilling the lead out could be real bad for your health .

Maybe if you add the mercury to molten lead it will mix in .

Johnch

[StarMetal]

The best thing to do with mercury is not to fool around with it at all, especially when heat is involved. It's a very hazardous heavy metal that gets into your body very easily.

Joe

[Abert Rim]

Guys, I realize the health issues associated with mercury. I am just interested in hearing if someone, somewhere has found it as useful in alloying bullets as some of the best travelled shooters of the 19th century did. You won't catch me fooling with the stuff, although I am old enough to remember my dentist giving me a small droplet of it in a plastic bottle to take home and look at. And if you dropped it on the floor, it broke up into tiny little silver balls that mom would have to get up with the vacuum cleaner. Ah, the uncomplicated joys of growing up in the late 1950s and '60s.

[castalott]

This is way off subject and I apologize.....but did you know several uboats used mercury for ballast and have been laying in pieces on the ocean floor for decades?

Dale

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Mg(mercury) is already a liquid at room temp., I don't recall it's vaporization point offhand but the process of alloying it with a solid would give me pause. Heating Hg up to the point that Pb melts might release a lot of Hg vapor.
I believe it will almagmate(sp?) w/ both silver & lead. This may be what happens
in the Pb removing process in barrels.
The old fillings for teeth were Hg & silver I believe. There are alot of us walking around with that in our mouths.

[9.3X62AL]

U-boats with mercury ballast......we should tell someone at EPA about that, maybe they'll be distracted for a while and leave lead alone.

[StarMetal]

The elemental form (Hg) vaporizes at any temperature down to almost 40° below zero. The vapor also has no taste or smell. The specific gravity of mercury is 13.546; therefore, it is heavier than lead and, like lead and other "heavy" metals, it is a potent poison.

Exposure to metallic mercury or mercury compounds, even in small quantities over a period of time, can cause severe poisoning. Mercury can enter the body by inhalation of vapors or mercury-containing dust, by swallowing (ingestion) or by absorption through the skin. Symptoms of chronic mercury poisoning are weakness, fatigue, inflammation and ulcers in the mouth, bleeding gums, loosened teeth, excessive salivation (spittle), tremors (shaking) and emotional instability. Acute poisoning causes nausea, abdominal pain, vomiting, headaches, diarrhea and, (occasionally) cardiac weakness.


Joe

[NVcurmudgeon]

Yes, yes, I know. The EPA would have a fit, and a fella could end up "mad as a hatter," but I was just rereading Samuel Baker's 1890 book "Wild Beasts and their Way," where Baker specifies a 648-grain solid bullet of 1:10 tin or 1:13 quicksilver over 160 grains black powder in the .577 Express for use on heavy game.
Is there an experimental archaeologist in the house who has carried out any mercury alloy experiments in the name of science and curiosity?

Abert Rim, Baker's use of a 2-bore rifle that he named "Baby" suggests that he may have ingested some of his boolit makings and made himself "as mad as a hatter!"

[castalott]

yep..the Brits sunk ~25 uboats off the coast of Ireland after the war in fairly shallow water. Now they are taking bids ( in the 100's of millions of Pounds) to raise them because of some 'pollution' hazard they represent. Why didn't they recycle them back then?

[versifier]

I tried to post this last night, but encountered problems accessing the server.

Mercury Info

I realize that no one in their right mind would want to mess with the stuff, but here's some info on mercury from the CRC Handbook of Chemistry & Physics and other sources.
Hg amalgamates with readily with silver, lead, tin, and gold, among others. The use of silver/mercury amalgam was very common in filling teeth and is thankfully no longer used, but many of us still have such fillings. The jury is still out on the long term health effects, but it does not look promising. If one can afford to do it, it's a very good idea to have them replaced.
Mercury is used to recover gold from its ores, in lighting, and in many other industrial processes, despite its extreme toxicity. It is readily absorbed through respiratory system, intestinal tract, and directly through the skin. It is considered a cumulative poison due to the body's ability to rid itself of only very small amounts at a time. It is extremely volatile and dangerous levels build up very quickly in air. It's boiling point is 356.58C or about 674F at 1atm of pressure. [smilie=f:
Chemists use fume hoods with special filters and wear protective clothing to handle and work with it. The more we learn about it, the worse we find out it is if improperly handled.
Information on mercury poisoning in people is readily found by doing a simple search and I hope you have a strong stomach. :veryconfu Star Metal's posting goes into more detail.
Anyone who wants to know more about what happens when it and other metals like cadmium, selenium, chromium and even antimony get into the environment should read The Toxic Metals by Anthony Tucker. Be glad there are no pictures.

[Buckshot]

..........To answer Abert's question, no I never have used a lead-Mercury alloy. I'm curious to find out what the benefits of such would be. As to growing up in the 50's-60's, I'm 52 so been there-done that. I don't recall where it came from but I do remember putting Mercury on our good old silver coins back then and making them shine like a, ah .......... newly minted dime!

When I did a lot of gold panning back in my 4 WD days, I used Mercury to glom onto the gold in the pan, then poured it back into it's bottle. In the old days a panner would take a white spud, cut it in half and carve out a cavity . Place the gold filled mercury into the cavity and wire the 2 halves back together. It was then placed into a fire and the spud absorbed all the mercury leaving the gold behind.

..............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Did they eat the spuds then Buckshot?

We use to put mercury on a penny to make it silver, not on silver coins. Sure you haven't ah maybe got too much mercury in ya pardner?

Joe

[versifier]

We played with it on silver coins, too, as kids. My older brother was especially fascinated by it, and I am positive it contributed to his reading and learning disabilities. Being several years younger, I was only allowed to watch, not touch, and resented it greatly at the time. Now, however, I have a different view of things.... :shock:

[D.Mack]

O.K. I admit in my younger days, I had to try it. problem no. 1 is the vaporization temp of mercury is just afew degrees, over the melting point of lead, 30-50 if i remember right. So if you cast hot, your mercury vaporized, and no effect on the bullets. If you cast cold the bullets were ugly, and didnt shoot worth a damn. With a lot of effort I managed to get a decent looking bullet that shot fair, the terminal effect was exactly what i was looking for, after initial penetration there was complete disintegration, and i was never able to find a piece bigger than a pin head. My original goal was to sell a bullet for self defense that wouln't overpenatrate. mass production wasn't viable and hand production was't safe, and later Glaser had a better idea. D.M.

[Abert Rim]

D.M.: I am surprised that the alloy disintegrated. What was the ratio of lead to mercury? Baker suggested 1:13 for a hard bullet that would penetrate in elephant, rhino and Cape buffalo.
Buckshot: Being of the same ripe age of 52, I might note that I have also done some gold panning, but never seriously enough to have needed mercury to recover my color. I have also heard of the potato trick.

[snowtigger]

I work with a fellow whose Dad WAS a gold miner. He also used mercury to "glom " onto the gold. He would then heat the amaglum to seperate the two.
One cold winter day about five years ago, he decided boredom had got the best of him and he was going to cook some gold. As it was about fifty degrees below zero, he decided to do it in the shop, instead of outside. He inhaled some vaporized mercury, how much I don't know. He was taken the hospital and flown to Seattle. The best specialists couldn't do anything. Four days later, my friend Karl lost his Dad.
He had done this so often, he got careless. :(
Pleasde leave this stuff alone.

[nighthunter]

This thread reminds me of the fairey tale thing. A northern fairey tale begins with " Once upon a time ", a redneck fairey tale begins with " You ain't gonna believe this **** ". If you have the urge to do something so blatently stupid please don't involve others. This is sorta like playing russian roulette. Sooner or later someone is gonna try it and eventually they are gonna lose.
Nighthunter

[StarMetal]

Nighthunter

Isn't there some beer brewery up near DuBois?

Joe

[Willbird]

My thinking was that they still use them, and this text supports that, also something to think about is that the amalgum fillings are a known evil, while the composite ones are more of an unknown, they in fact may be MORE harmfull.


http://www.piercelaw.edu/risk/vol2/spring/royal.htm

However, the American Dental Association (ADA) supports the use of such fillings and assures "the American people that dental amalgam is safe."1 The ADA claims that since mercury amalgam has been used for over 150 years, its safety should not be disputed.2 While its position remains largely unsupported by scientific evidence, the ADA challenges those opposed to the use of amalgam fillings (anti-amalgamists) to produce scientific evidence that its use is harmful to humans.3 This challenge has been accepted. The anti-amalgamists have countered by challenging the ADA to demonstrate that safe levels of mercury in human tissues exist before endorsing its use.4 The ADA has yet to respond. Both sides do, however, agree that "[1] [mercury] is one of the most poisonous elements known to man, and [2] mercury amalgam may cause ill effects in those people who are mercury sensitive."5

The mercury used in fillings is hazardous before and during their preparation.6 Also, scrap materials pose an environmental hazard when discarded.7 Research over the past decade demonstrates that their use poses a potential health hazard to a significant number of the estimated 200 million Americans with amalgam fillings.8 Amalgam continues to be the primary filling material in the U.S., largely due to the ADA's endorsement.

[johniv]

Have read some of Bakers stuff and remember about the mercury and lead mix. Ross Seyfried mentioned it in passing just before he left handloader,but stated that he hadent tried it. I know I sure as hell wouldent,but would like to know just what it does for a boolit. Baker was talking about penetration in his book on Ceylon(dont remember the name and dont have my library with me att) ,not fragmentation of said boolit.
John

[nighthunter]

Starmetal .... used to be DuBois Budweiser Beer but they went out of business in the late 60's or early 70's. I remember seeing them empty the used hops into dump trucks on my way home from school.
Nighthunter

[StarMetal]

Nighthunter,

I thought so, I grew up in Belle Vernon and there were alot of breweries around that area, the one you mentioned, Rolling Rock up in Latrobe, Stonies over in Smithon, then there was one with a real long funny name Laughing something or another. Of course there was Fort Pitt in Pitts plus that terrible Iron City.

Joe

[versifier]

Is the beer to help us not think about the poison in our teeth? :grin:

[D.Mack]

Nighthunter, I'm sorry you got the impression we might be encouraging someone to do something stupid, but, I haven't read anyone who thought playing with mercury is a casual thing, and the dangers are repeated throughout. D.M.

[Willbird]

Another interesting aside, I know a man who is a turd herder in TX, he works at the place that makes big ones into little ones, a sewage treatment facility, anyway those sprinkler affairs with the revolving arms use a sort of mercury bearing that the sprinkler head floats on.

Dunno why that is interesting, and whether I should still devote memory space to that fact or not, not like I have a choice in these things hehe.

Bill

[Slowpoke]

. In the old days a panner would take a white spud, cut it in half and carve out a cavity . Place the gold filled mercury into the cavity and wire the 2 halves back together. It was then placed into a fire and the spud absorbed all the mercury leaving the gold behind.

..............Buckshot[/QUOTE]

Yep I have heard that as well, but the version I heard ended with-- Then you feed the potato to your pardner and keep the gold for yourself.

good luck

[Kragman71]

Albert,
In my misspent youth,I cleaned a LOT of barrels that were clogged with lead with Mercury.In spite of what has been posted here,Mercury amalgamates(forms a union with)lead.simply plug the breach,pour some Mercury in the barrel,hold your finger over the muzzle and tilt the barrel a few times.
Remove finger and pour out the Mercury/Lead liquid.The bore will be completely lead free and shiney.It taakes less time to do it then to write about it on the computer.
I got the Mercury from old automatic electric switches.
I have heard about those old English bullets containing Mercury,but can't figure out how they did it.At room temperature,Mercury is a liquid and Lead is a solid.If Mercury predominates,the mass is a liquid,I know.But if Lead predominates,maybe the mass is a solid?
By the way,I shoot a lot more llead bullets now,and have a lot less trouble with leading the bore.If I do have trouble,now I use an Outer's Foul Out System.
Frank

[StarMetal]

Kragman71

Just out of curiousity do you have any children and if so did they have any birth defects? Mercury is bad for that when one has a high level in his/her body. I hope that if you have children that they are fine specimens.

Joe

[Kragman71]

Star Metal,
Thanks for your concern.I'm 75 years old,and have 3 healthy Daughters and 4 healthy grandchildren.
My long time exposure to lead poisoning has caused me enough concern to have a blood test for it.Thankfully,negative.My actual exposure to mercury poisoning is very small--was very small.The major problem with mercury is a spill.When spilled,mercury forms tiny balls that skitter all over.If it flls off of the bench onto a rug,it cannot be removed.The last thing you do to mercury is to vacuume it.That dissapates the entire ball into the air.At the time that I was doing this,in the '50's or early '60's,a family in Long Island,New York had the misfortune to buy a home where mercury had been spilled onto a rug.The adults felt nothing,but their children seemed sickly.When the dog died,they sought help.It was too late;both children were severely injured.I still remember the details from a newspaper article from 40 years ago.
Manilla paper,for some reason,will prevent the little balls from rolling all over the place.I was always careful and never had a problem,even though I used it a lot with my 9MM pistol and hot loads with linotype bullets.
I still have the mercury.If I had to choose between scrubbing a leaded bore with a bronze thing and using the mercury,I would probably use the mercury.I did that scrubbing chore just once.The question is moot because now,I have the Outer's Foul Out System.
Frank

[sundog]

Frank, I seem to vaguely remember that incident on Long Island. I would have been about 15 at that time. I lived on the north shore about 75 miles east of the city. Very recently that same thing happened here in Tulsa and a child became very gravely ill from a spill in a carpet that was not discovered until later. Alot of testing had to be done to finally 'discover' what had made the child ill - mercury in the carpet in the family room, if I remember right. Mercury may have some very useful purposes in our world but not in its free form at home in the hands of 'lay people'. sundog

[grumble]

"...Mercury may have some very useful purposes in our world but not in its free form at home in the hands of 'lay people'."

"Lay people." That means, "not smart like us," doesn't it? <GGG> Doctors, lawyers, and the clergy seem to use the term the most. At least, I've never heard a truck driver or construction worker use the term to refer to people not in their profession. I think we should all agree to use that term for those who don't cast their own. Sound good?

[StarMetal]

I'd venture to say that all of us have mercury in our homes. Flourescent lamps and your funace thermonstat...maybe some small watch size batteris...oh and medical thermometers...possibly more.

Joe

[Kragman71]

Sun Dog,
I think that 'Lay People',like you and me,have a right to try dangerous things,as well as 'Experts'.It is our responsibility to learn as much as we can before acting,and to exercise great care while acting.
Handling loaded firearms,and smokeless gunpowder is certainly dangerous,and using black powder and mercury is very dangerous.
In the past,I've used a lot of black powder in my ML and my Trapdoors,but not any more.Pyrodex is easier and safer.My mercury has also been replaced by the Outer's system.
Part of acting responsibly is to stop doing something dangerous when you no longer have to.
i realize that some 'Purists' will fault me for using imitation black powder,but it's fine for me.If it's worth your while to continue using black powder,that's fine by me too.
'Lay People' have this right
Frank

[Willbird]

I guess I better turn over the bottle I have of it then, I think it is either 5 or 10 lbs, about 8 oz by volume.

Cadmium plated bolts are super dangerous too if you grind them and breathe the smoke.

Lots of things are dangerous, and as others have said there is mercury in many homes, even the ones owned by lay people.

Bill

[sundog]

Frank, certainly can't fault anything you said. I guess you said it better than me, because what I intended was that if thou know not, don't. Better to know a little about it before playing with it. And, like you, I do things because I can. sundog

[454PB]

In the 70's, I worked in a coal fired steam generating power plant. All of the system controls used mercury. There were large beakers of it stored in a locked room, and only the instrument men were allowed access. Still, we managed to get our hands on it and screw around, as young men are known to do. One of the instrument men died, and the cause was mercury poisoning. That kinda sobered everyone up.

I later met an oldtime hardrock miner/prospector. He poo-pooed all the warnings about mercury. He used it all the time to retort gold, and had a cast iron flask of it. This flask was about the size of a quart milk bottle (you remember those, don't you?) and it took both hands and a lot of grunting to pick it up. He told me he acquired all this mercury by tearing up the floors of abandoned mining cabins. All the old time gold miners used mercury, and spilled it on the floor. It then rolled through the cracks and rested on the dirt. He filtered it through a piece of clothe to remove the dirt. He said all that you have to do is make sure you are not directly over the mercury while it's vaporizing, and told stories of nearly instantaneous death by those that were "layman".

He also told me that as a kid, living in a gold mining town, he and his siblings had a neat trick they pulled. They would take a big drink of mercury, which would very shortly drop out their other end into their knickers. I always wondered about that story, but he was dead serious when he told it.

He died about 15 years ago at the age of 76, but still looked 10 years younger than that. I don't think the mercury got him, but the cigars and Black Velvet may have contributed.

[Kragman71]

Hello,again
I just reread all the posts here.It seems that we Laymen assembled cannot do what one old englishman did many years ago.
I'm not going to try to add liquid mercury to hot,molten lead.The fume potential boggles my mind.I also don't know any other way to amalgmate the two metals to form a solid.
Just for conjecture,not to promote any experiment,how would you make a lead/mercury alloy 13:1?
Frank

[Old Jim]

The best use of murcury and lead bullets is to drill a cavity the length of the bullet from meplat to base and partially fill it with mercury. Seal the meplat. When it impacts the target you get a double hammer effect and a poisonous spray into the body cavity. Apparently were used as asassan bullets in WWII.
(I can't believe I can't figure how many sssssss's are in aassassainnn)

[The Nyack Kid]

old jim
Now we're talking the fun stuff .
does this make as big of a mess as a 22 blank inserted base up in a boolit ?

[Harry]

I have a good bit of 1lb ingots that are stamped 10-1 and 2-10. Initial analysis done just recently yielded this.
10-1*
Pb = 87.6%
Sn = 8.5%
In = 3.9% (In = Indium)

2-10*
Pb = 78.4%
Sn = 14.5%
In = 7.1% (In = Indium)

Asterisk's indicate a question about the In. After a second analysis this is the report I got.

"I spent few minutes working on the samples tonight. I hit them with a torch and re-melted them. I then scraped the surface away to have a fresh surface to analyze. I am now confident about what I was missing.

Both 10-1 and 2-10 contain about 20% Hg or MERCURY."

It is recommended that I scrap them and not use for casting. These were made back in late '50s by my dad. Apparently he cast with it. This doesn't answer your question, but indicates people used mercury mixed with lead and tin.

[M-Tecs]

Interesting old thread. I have used it to clean barrels. Never thought about or knew it would alloy with lead.

[Harry]

If these ingots I have, contain 20% mercury, as indicated on analysis, it sure is not in a liquid state. It has amalgamated with the lead and tin. Otherwise, if it was in it's liquid state (boiling), mercury beads would be all over the place.

[Plate plinker]

The best thing to do with mercury is not to fool around with it at all, especially when heat is involved. It's a very hazardous heavy metal that gets into your body very easily.

Joe

Mercury is Not as bad as it is made out to be.

[Bent Ramrod]

Us kids used to make pennies into “dimes” by rubbing mercury into the copper coins. A few people are allergic to mercury, but in general, the metal itself is pretty innocuous. It’s the water-soluble compounds, and especially the organic compounds of mercury, that are extremely toxic.

They used to use calomel (mercurous chloride) as a patent medicine in the old days. The saving grace for the one medicated was that the mercurous chloride was almost insoluble in water, so there wasn’t enough of it there to to affect the average 55-year lifetime back then. But you didn’t want to try it with mercuric chloride, which is very soluble, and very, very poisonous.

That Minimata plant in Japan dumped a lot of metallic mercury into the ocean, figuring nothing would happen. Unfortunately, some pesky bacteria evolved that managed to incorporate the stuff into their digestive process, turning it into organic compounds of mercury. This stuff ran up the food chain to the fishing community across the bay, with horrific nerve damage and paralysis as a result.

I personally think that risks are things to be understood and managed. But the Caring and Concerned Industry is like any other; it has to grow or perish. Sooner or later, everything anyone does will come under the philanthropic gaze of the professional Viewers-with-Alarm, and their enthusiastic amateur followers. To these people, Safety means doing nothing, preferably in a padded room breathing filtered air and drinking distilled water. That’s an existence, not a life. Your choice.

[Spector]

Does scrap mercury which has been used to clean barrels and therefore contains some lead have any value? And what would be the acceptable method to dispose of it in an environmentally safe way? Is thete a market for it?

[Omega]

I played with mercury and bullets back in my youth, hollowed out a .22 filled with mercury then sealed with a bit of wax. Shot a few at some old boards, made quite a nice hole. Then my youthful curiosity shifted elsewhere, like 1/4 sticks of dynamite and tree stumps. I collected a bunch from thermostats that had electrical switches. Never heard of mercury to clean barrels, I sure would of tried it.

Anyone recall mercurochrome? I used this stuff right into the 2000s, was in many a military 1st aid kit, and while it stung like hell, it would stop the bleeding on small to medium cuts very well. I kept that and steri-strips in my individual kit for years, probably have some still in my old kits.


Generally speaking, methylmercury is the poisonous form which is not the form of mercury found in mercurochrome, thermometers, dental fillings, electrical switches, or vaccines. Mercurochrome contains mercury in a disodium salt form which is considered to be perfectly safe.

[quail4jake]

Careful out there folks! Metallic Hg is alot of fun but any salt or organic compound has high bioavailability and very insidious toxicity. This one is a much worse heavy metal than Pb...

[Geezer in NH]

Does scrap mercury which has been used to clean barrels and therefore contains some lead have any value? And what would be the acceptable method to dispose of it in an environmentally safe way? Is thete a market for it?
It certainly does for the Haz-Mat disposal company that removes it. Wait till you see what that costs!