Need advice on gun safes pls.

[marek313]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this but I'm looking to purchase new gun safe. I dont need anything very large 12 gun would be more then big enough for my needs. My problem is that looking around web seems like most of the safes these days are so cheaply made that if you can pry it open with a bar, you can just cut it open like a can of sardines with any power saw.

I'm actually thinking of getting something older and used instead of getting brand new one. Seems like back in the day safes were made out of steel not drywall sandwich in a soup can. I found 2002 Liberty Franklin 25 safe on craigslist for $1350 which looks like a really nice safe. None of the new ones around $1000 seem to be worth buying since a quick look at youtube will show that most can be opened under 2mins with normal household tools.

With all the cheap sheet metal safes imported from China what safe should I be looking at? I dont have thousands of dollars to spend on it but I dont want to spend money on junk neither. Whats the nest bang for my buck ???

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/spo/d/liberty-safe/6745767571.html

[Reddirt62]

Love my liberty...I live in tornado country, and the local dealer had two Liberty safes that survived an F5 ...soild and stout!

[dragon813gt]

Almost all gun safes are residential security containers. They prevent smash and grabs and buy some time in a fire. They carry neither a TL or actual fire rating. The fire ratings are simply what the manufacturer places on the sticker.

If you want a safe that’s built of thick steel and is geared towards firearms look at Sturdy Safes. They have lots of options when it comes to steel, locks and fire proofing. These are still RSCs and don’t carry a TL rating. I have one, optioned out, and am very pleased w/ it.

If you want an actual safe look at the likes of Amsec, Graffunder and Brown. Real safes have real ratings. You want a TL-15 minimum as it buys you more time. And that’s what safes buy you, time.

[Petrol & Powder]

Safes do buy you time, the question is how much time do you want to buy and what's that time worth to you?

Most attacks to safes start with the thief (thieves) putting the safe on its back with the door up. This allows the maximum force to be applied with pry bars and other tools. So regardless of what safe you end up with, it needs to be bolted to the floor at a minimum. If you can put it in a confined space or build a confined space around it, that's even better. And of course if the thief cannot find the concealed safe, he cannot attack it at all.

I'm not sure that the safes from 16 years ago (not really back in the day) were any stronger than the ones today. As for the fireproofing, the drywall is just used as a fire insulator and it's better than nothing. Again, you're just buying time. I know one guy that plumbed a fire sprinkler directly over the safe which could provide some protection in a fire if the structure was supplied by municipal water but it would be of little value to a rural home on a well.

You want the safe to be small enough that it can be concealed but a large safe has some benefits. 1. It provides room for expansion of your gun collection. 2. it is just flat out harder to carry off even if the thief does get it free from the floor and walls.

If you put the safe in a basement it REALLY should be on a small pedestal. Just 3" -5" of treated lumber to get it off the concrete slab will reduce condensation in and under the safe. Plus - that little pedestal is worth its weight in gold if you have minor flooding (like a plumbing issue). Again the safe MUST be secured to the floor and preferably to the walls as well. A metal strap around the top of the safe just above the door will make the safe difficult to remove and difficult to attack.
If the safe is over a crawl space, you can put two threaded rods through the floor of the safe, through the floor of the house and into the crawl space. Then bolt the rods to a piece of channel iron that spans at least one floor joist and peen the rods over the nuts.

I agree with dragon that most safes are residential security containers but even those will stop most thieves if they can't carry the safe away or get it on its back and breach the door. A concealed safe that is tough to find, that is in a confined space that allows no room for tools and cannot easily be removed will thwart 98% of the thieves.

Buy a mid-range safe that is the biggest one you can conceal and protect the safe from discovery and attack.
You are just buying time with a safe but with some planning you can buy the time you need.

[HangFireW8]

Be careful of high fire ratings. That usually comes from gypsum drywall which releases huge amounts of moisture when hot that will preserve cash but rust guns.

Buy large first which gets you weight and capacity both. Then additional security and cost comes with more weight.

More security can be had for an RSC by bolting it into a concrete wall corner, bolting bottom, back and one side. You can also pour another reinforced concrete wall along the exposed side. Each thing you do adds a few minutes to the break-in or removal time, nothing more.

The most secure RSC's are the ones a burglar does not know is there. Hide them don't show them to every visitor.

[jednorris]

Pawn shops going out of business are a good source The last two I bought were from Gander Mtn. and they were discounted30% because of scratch's. Get the biggest one you can afford, you will NEVER have too much space.

[murf205]

Pawn shops going out of business are a good source The last two I bought were from Gander Mtn. and they were discounted30% because of scratch's. Get the biggest one you can afford, you will NEVER have too much space.

jednorris is spot on with his advise about never having too much space. Bite the boolit and buy one bigger than you THINK you will ever need, Then bite a very small boolit and anchor that baby to the floor or/and wall. Crooks don't pry open a save in your house, they turn t over onto a dolly and roll it out to a waiting van. Hilti make some of the absolutely strongest drive pin anchors ever made. Use at least 3/8" and preferably 1/2" diameter. If you are anchoring to concrete floor, don't drill all the way into the dirt underneath. Stop about 1" shy of going all the way through. Lag bolts into the wall studs are the next best.

[dragon813gt]

W/ the OP being in NJ, Philadelphia or NYC aren’t that far away. Search Craigslist in those areas for “safes”. Locksmith, safe and construction companies list safes for sale all the time. And I mean actual safes. Lots of Diebolds and Yorks for sale in the Philly area. I see large double door TL-15 and TL-30 safes listed fairly often. Usually for less than $3k depending on size, rating and condition. Moving a 2,000+# safe isn’t for the faint of heart.

[reloader28]

I love my big Liberty and I dont think theres any way possible to pry open that door. But I believe a cutting wheel would go right thru the side fairly easy.
I sure like the looks of the Fort Knox safe

[Mr_Sheesh]

Better yet, don't show them to ANY visitor.

[scotner]

Second the suggestion of Sturdy Safes in CA. They will build them to order with as much steel as you want and ship directly to you. I have been very happy with mine.

[Thundarstick]

Count me as a third for Sturdy! After looking, studying, and evaluating risk, I went with all the steel I could afford and no fire proofing (although they offer some real fire protection). It's bolted to concrete and surrounded on three sides. None but my wife knows what I have in there, so I'll ring in for not letting half the county now what you have. I have a coworker whose father had close to a million dollars worth of guns in a garage behind the house and the only thing guarding them was silence!
I see my safe as a way to deny unauthorized access to my firearms more than security from theft as well.

[lightman]

My experience with gun safes says to buy bigger than you think you will need. They do not hold as many guns as they claim and most of us find other stuff that suddenly needs to be locked up.

Any safe, or container, is better than nothing. I would access the value of what you are trying to protect and decide from there.

[marek313]

Thanx for all the info guys.

Reading all the replies I also started thinking where the best location in the house for a gun safe would be. I would like to have it in the bedroom but I dont really have any room in there or room in the closet for it. I have full unfinished basement where I can do whatever I want so if I was to put it down there i could build a concrete wall around it if I wanted to. Put nice locked steel door on with some electrical warning stickers and fake conduits coming out. Now I have a double safe. Also a lot easier and more sturdy to anchor it directly to concrete. At the same time it is a basement so it does get humid down there sometimes so rust would be a concern to both safe and guns. Since I have my gun bench down in my basement it would be nice to have it close by.

I'm thinking keep my small piece of **** sentry safe in the bedroom and put the big one in the basement.

Wait who is going to take that beast down stairs [smilie=b:

[modified5]

Just like others said, safes buy you time.
I had a friend who was a sheriffs detective and we talked about safesbefire he passed.
He had a visit with a safe cracking criminal and asked how he got in and how long it took. He said he brought multiple angle grinders with big cut off wheels, and he averaged about 10 minutes. He would go in through the top and pull everything out there.
That said, I have a Fort Knox and love it. Just hide it as best you can.

[Land Owner]

16 guns safes can be "rated" closer to 32 gun safes by turning the first 16 guns muzzle up and the last 16 guns muzzle down - inserting them in between the former guns. Guns with fixed scopes and sights like peeps and verniers are problematic as no one want to ding anything especially knocking on the sights, so care in loading and unloading is going to take precedence. Putting a terry-cloth towel on the safe floor to receive the muzzles is good. Lubricating oils tend to collect there.

[Char-Gar]

The term "gun safe" is often used to describe a sheet metal box to store guns in. All of your Mart-Mart safes fit into this category.

You want a welded plate steel safe at least 3/8 thick sides and a 1/4 in door. Thicker cost more, but of course would be better.

Take a look at Security Products. They build welded plate steel safes of different sizes and different thicknesses. I have had one for over 27 years. They use key locks that can't be drilled and can't be picked. I would buy another, if I was in the market for a good safe. They come pre-drilled for attatchment to the slab.

[jcren]

Pay attention to where you place it. A few years ago there was a group around here goung around stealing the whole safe. They would hog a couple holes through the wall with a chainsaw and hook up a log chain to a 4 wheel drive and jerk the whole thing out the side of the house. Centrally located if no basement.

[dragon813gt]

Never included the link in my first post.
https://www.sturdysafe.com/

Even if you’re not looking to buy a safe spend time on their site. They’re a very honest company. Looking at their metal upgrade options will make you realize how deficient almost all RSCs are.

This is another great company as they offer a lot of options. Their fire proofing is the real deal and doesn’t take up interior space. They make real safes so they know what they’re doing.
http://www.amsecusa.com/

[fredj338]

Given time & tools, nothing is really safe. Still, go quality steel, 1/4" sides & 3/8" door is plenty to keep the pry bar guys out. Bolt it to the floor or wall, a 1200# safe can easily be moved by one guy with a refer dolly. Buy bigger than you think you need. I bought a FortKnox years, ago, "plenty big enough", until it isn't anymore. The whole fire proof safe thing is really misleading. If you want it fireproof, warp the safe in2 layers of 5/8 drywall with a drywall door, like inside a closet. Drywall inside the safe is very marginal protection.

[scotner]

Given time & tools, nothing is really safe. Still, go quality steel, 1/4" sides & 3/8" door is plenty to keep the pry bar guys out. Bolt it to the floor or wall, a 1200# safe can easily be moved by one guy with a refer dolly. Buy bigger than you think you need. I bought a FortKnox years, ago, "plenty big enough", until it isn't anymore. The whole fire proof safe thing is really misleading. If you want it fireproof, warp the safe in2 layers of 5/8 drywall with a drywall door, like inside a closet. Drywall inside the safe is very marginal protection.

My Sturdy safe is enclosed in a 2x4 framed enclosure with 5/8" Class C drywall inside and out. Between the walls is 3.5" of rock wool insulation. This gives me fire and thermal protection and would hopefully buy a few more minutes for FD to arrive. Be sure to check on Class C sheetrock if you decide to build your own enclosure. This has a special fire rating. It is not normally stocked locally but it was no problem special ordering it from Lowe's. It is only slightly more expensive than regular sheetrock.

[McFred]

https://easternshore.craigslist.org/spo/d/vault-door-bank-vault-door/6750998927.html

Depending on your living situation and skills/tools, a walk-in could be a cost-effective option. Some 5/8" rebar and poured concrete are pretty inexpensive if you can acquire a pre-hung 'vault' door. When I was younger I helped a guy in Texas build his house with a reinforced concrete 'room' in one corner. Part of it was because of valuables, the other part was that the town was wiped off the planet by an F5 tornado a few years earlier and he wanted something he could shelter in if ever in the same situtation.

Local steel fab shops will likely build-to-suit if you have an idea what you want. They'd likely be sturdier and more cost-effective than getting a commercially-produced residential security spam can. Like what a lot of people are saying, you're mostly just deterring smash/grab thieves.

Walk-ins aren't very portable so if you're renting or if you intend to move, it may not be the best idea.

[MT Gianni]

I am of the belief that any safe is better than no safe. Sportsmans Warehouse had a 23 gun safe on sale last week for $650. If not well connected to the concrete none are really safe.

[Land Owner]

A lot of you guys must live in Chicago, Detroit, LA, Miami or mobile homes the way you decry gun safe's as "temporary protection" and "better than nothing". Were I living where you feel this way, I would pack up and MOVE.

I live in a house, in a neighborhood, where I know and respect and like my neighbors, and they me, and my house is protected by neighbors, walls, doors, and guns. My doors are locked, not for my protection, but for those that might consider coming through uninvited. I have a dog as a first line of defense. When she's upset, something is wrong and I go to Condition One. She alerted me to and "caught" a would-be car rifler and prevented other nere-do-wells from approaching. I recommend you get a dog.

[Cherokee]

I bought a 42x73" large, heavy steel "safe" without any interior, then built my own interior to fit what I wanted in the thing. Enclosed on 3 sides, setting on treated wood base and bolted to concrete basement floor.
Oh, it wasn't large enough but that's another story.

PS: Looked at a $4,000 large "safe" today at LGS (FFF), the interior looked great, but it would not hold near as many guns as it stated unless they were skinny 22's. But, it did have some nice pockets hung on the door, good idea for some stuff.

[HangFireW8]

Yeah... commercial safe capacity seems to be based on 22's and .410's with bolts removed, no scopes... And every other one upside down.