GRAPHIC: Was This the Worst Hunting Accident Ever?

[John Boy]

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/graphic-wont-believe-what-kind-of-gun-resulted-in-this-hunting-accident/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=sendible&utm_term=rjournal&utm_campaign=rjournal&fbclid=IwAR21bg0o9bDoCYkKznS-MSNyKkCkKjjCHJAXy81uplfUV4-BWthPTwaS9x4

[hc18flyer]

Bad, but too many deaths occur. This past weekend a Hunter passing a rifle down from a tree stand was killed when it discharged. The son my have accidentally killed his father, tough to live with! My Grandfather was killed crossing a fence with a 20 gauge shotgun when my Mom was an infant. hc18flyer

[MrWolf]

Ouch. Bet that hurt a bit. Doesn't even look like a thumb.

[Traffer]

There was a discussion somewhere a couple of months ago about (I believe) this gun. Are not these the muzzle loaders that use smokeless powder? It seems that for what ever reason, (wrong powder of whatever) several of them have blown up. (this may not be the gun, correct me if I am wrong)

[brewer12345]

230322

[Adam Helmer]

John Boy,

As an old federal agent, I need to have a few questions answered. Until then, I will agree that this was a bad event. It has yet to be determined to be an accident.

Adam

[CastingFool]

That is pretty bad. I would think it was likely caused by an obstruction in the barrel, rather than an overcharge. Guns&Ammo published an article years ago, where the author actually tried to blow up a ML barrel by overcharging it. At one point, he put 700 grains of powder, followed by a prb, and fired it. No damage was done to the barrel. He miked the barrel after every shot. No change whatsoever. Even after loading with two balls. He was successful in blowing up the barrel, but only after fully seating one ball, then loading a 2nd ball but leaving some space between the two balls.

[Omega]

Either wrong powder, obstruction or ball not seated all the way, or a combination thereof. That there was catastrophic, and would take alot of pressure to accomplish.

[Geraldo]

I've seen videos comparing rifle destruction caused by smokeless and barrel obstructions, and that looks like smokeless. The Savage was made to use smokeless, but IRCC only one powder and a very specific load. Dump something else in them and they would let go.

[Moleman-]

I have a Savage ml2 muzzleloader and like it. You do have to be more careful with it then a standard muzzleloader you not going to get away with throwing in an extra 20 grains of powder or being lax. There have been blowups that usually are tracked to using a black powder volume measure to measure smokeless powder, going far above the load data charts, using different powders/bullet-sabot combos, double loading, not seating the bullet. There are some that don't have a clear reason, so I can't rule out bad barrels. But most fall into the same reason standard ML guns blow up. There was one highly publicized incident who clearly had an axe to grind (trying to extort money from savage after getting fired) before having his gun blow up strangely right after taking off an expensive scope and putting a cheap one on it which muddys up the water even more. Having followed several of the sagas it really looks like this case was a double load.

[arcticap]

December 21, 2011, 4:56 AM
Sheriff: Ohio man cleaning gun killed Amish girl

FREDERICKSBURG, Ohio - A man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle shot the gun into the air, accidentally killing
a 15-year-old Amish girl driving a horse-drawn buggy more than a mile away, a sheriff said Tuesday....

...The man had fired the gun in the air about 1.5 miles from where Yoder was shot, Zimmerly said.
State investigators were checking the rifle for a ballistics match, he said....

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sheriff-ohio-man-cleaning-gun-killed-amish-girl/


There's also a serious risk whenever someone buys a used muzzle loader that hasn't been checked to see if it's loaded or not.

[fiberoptik]

Have a friend who walked outside on New Years right after midnight; caught a stray 9mm in the heart. Survived, but barely.


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[Walks]

That poor man, my PRAYERS go out to Him.

I had a hunting Buddy years back that had the same injury, His 20ga Win model 12 blew up in the same place. One of the other Dove Hunters was using a 28ga SxS. That shell would slide into the chamber and be stopped by the rim contacting the end of the chamber. A 20ga shell would slide right in behind it and chamber perfectly. Bore Obstruction.

BOOM !!! They did manage to save his thumb.

[Hickory]

Black powder, Black powder, Black powder, Black powder it's the only one that you should use.
Good by hand, hello wisdom - after the fact.

[wgr]

Question if that is a smokeless muzzle loader what diff. does it make if the round is seated are not? Never owned a smokeless muzzle loader but you do,nt seat smokeless powder on most rifle loads. still you need to be very carefull

[Potsy]

Those graphic Savage pics have been floating around the interweb for years, providing fuel for the hand-wringers and faint of heart. Granted, if you don't watch what you are doing, you'll be hand-wringing without the benefit of opposable thumbs.

Bro in Law has a Savage. Another Pard has some custom smokeless barrel for an NEF that some outfit out of Indiana makes.
While I see the benefit, they can be wonky in terms of ignition and accuracy. Though the Savage seems to be the better of the two, and is an absolute hammer on impact.

I looked at the charges they are running vs. bullet weight and really don't see where you could screw one up IF YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE ABOUT AND WERE PAYING ATTENTION. They honestly seem like Trapdoor to lower Marlin level .45-70 loads in a .50 cal. bore. I've even heard some folks whine about how a bullet is not crammed down on the powder in a smokeless cartridge load. Guess they've never tried to seat a 350 Ranch Dog over 55 grains of 3031 in a .45-70.

I've been wanting to go the more traditional route for several years (flintlock, sidelock, etc.), but if I could have another scoped inline by my design, it'd be wrapped around the concept of a .45 bore, a paper patched 350 grainer, 100 grains of Swiss FFg, and Federal 215 ignition. I've got a pretty good idea what kind of pressure that will generate, but don't tell anybody.........

Actual hunting accidents (not blowups by idiots) are another matter altogether and are tragic. I've known of several with tragic consequences and several more near misses. Had a couple near misses and things that could have turned out bad myself, but keeping a gun pointed in a safe direction and keeping my booger hook off the bang switch kept things from getting worse. I did slip a 16ga. shell into my 12ga auto a few years back. Caught it before I dropped the bolt down on it. Now I only dove hunt with one shotgun (and the correct ammo) at a time.

People who fire up into the air with a rifle or pistol in this day and age should be neutered so as not to further pollute the gene pool.

[Ateam]

I have a Savage smokeless muzzle loader which I re-barreled to .458 my self. I don't really see a whole lot of difference between reloading metallic cartridges and a SML. If you grab the wrong powder, or blast out an obstruction, the results are going to be the same in either application.

The seating issue is interesting because with traditional BP you will blow the barrel if you don't seat against the powder. But with smokeless, if you don't seat hard, and have good bore fit, the powder WILL NOT IGNITE.

As for being about trapdoor levels, that may be the case with break actions, but my savage achieves .458 win mag performance levels, many have driven them well past that. If you want to fall down the rabbit hole of SML's, visit Doug's message board :

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Ateam;4504604]I have a Savage smokeless muzzle loader which I re-barreled to .458 my self.

As for being about trapdoor levels, that may be the case with break actions, but my savage achieves .458 win mag performance levels, many have driven them well past that.

LUNACY!!!!

[Tatume]

Well built smokeless muzzle loaders are as safe as any other rifle when used responsibly by knowledgeable shooters. Problems arise from ignorance and irresponsibility. For example, a fellow I know bought a Savage ML II mail-order, and went to the LGS for a pound of powder. Then he came to my house and asked me to teach him how to load it. I asked why he bought Bullseye powder, and he said the guy at the gun store recommended it. I bought the can of Bullseye from him and gave him some correct powder so he could go hunting. I also loaded the gun for him. Later I learned that he sold the gun without ever firing a shot from it. The problem is not the gun. It's the nut behind the trigger.

[oldracer]

I would venture to say it is a double load. There was an Hi Wall action blow up at a schuetzen match in San Diego years ago and the shooter did not get hurt as he was using a palm rest and most of the parts flew upwards. When he investigated he found his loads were double and he remembered he had been interrupted by a telephone call when doing his match rounds. He was never interrupted again and also looked into each case to see the height of the powder in the case. As for an air gap behind the ball or bullet, remember the first Sharps rifles had the bullet seated then powder poured in behind the lead bullet and action closed. There was usually some air space left once the action was closed? This was before they were converted to cartridge use.

[Powder Burn]

My guess, double charge. Heard lots of folks that use the Savage rifle are very pleased with its performance. I have black powder pistols/flintlocks/caplocks and hunt with inlines with subs.. When hunting, I weigh each powder load (after getting the weight for average volume recommendations), for consistency. I could be off 5 grs either way and get about the same results in accuracy. My inline can take up to 150 grs by volume, but it kicks like a mule. I wish they would have posted more details, but the lawyers are keeping quiet for the big payout. You know the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One's a bottom feeding scum sucker and the other's a fish. My daughter (attorney in Boston), told me that one.

[john.k]

far from the worst.....dozens of fatal injuries from pulling shotguns out of cars,through fences,or guns propped up and falling over.One and both legs off at the knee from a gun in the back seat of a car.,gut shot pulling a gun in a blanket out of a cupboard,chest shot taking gun handed over fence,..one I recall,a man was shooting with his son,and reached out to point out a bird,just as the son fired...And this was only ex sevicemen whose disablement and deaths I used to record on their files when I worked in the department,not the general public.

[indian joe]

far from the worst.....dozens of fatal injuries from pulling shotguns out of cars,through fences,or guns propped up and falling over.One and both legs off at the knee from a gun in the back seat of a car.,gut shot pulling a gun in a blanket out of a cupboard,chest shot taking gun handed over fence,..one I recall,a man was shooting with his son,and reached out to point out a bird,just as the son fired...And this was only ex sevicemen whose disablement and deaths I used to record on their files when I worked in the department,not the general public.

when I was a kid a young feller (late teenager) pulled a loaded DB shotgun out of the back of a car by the muzzle - hammer snagged in the upholstery and blew his right arm off just below the shoulder - 20 year later a carpenter (keen shooter) told me the first thing you did if you went to work on that farm was go around and unload ALL the guns (back before storage laws they were just hangin out in various strategic spots ready to kill a fox or a crow etc)

[indian joe]

Well built smokeless muzzle loaders are as safe as any other rifle when used responsibly by knowledgeable shooters. Problems arise from ignorance and irresponsibility. For example, a fellow I know bought a Savage ML II mail-order, and went to the LGS for a pound of powder. Then he came to my house and asked me to teach him how to load it. I asked why he bought Bullseye powder, and he said the guy at the gun store recommended it. I bought the can of Bullseye from him and gave him some correct powder so he could go hunting. I also loaded the gun for him. Later I learned that he sold the gun without ever firing a shot from it. The problem is not the gun. It's the nut behind the trigger.

You are correct in theory but a smokeless muzzle loader is a serious accident begging for a place to happen - one of the dumbest ideas the gun manufacturers have come up with to date - there ARE nuts behind the Butt - lots of em - mostly safe from blowups with cartridge guns because by and large they are not reloaders - commercial ammo keeps them sort of safe - unless they plug a barrel falling over in the swamp or such - but the same clown bulk loading smokeless into a muzzle loader ??????--- look out!!!!

[Tatume]

The same clown bulk loading black powder or black powder substitute into a muzzle loader ??????--- look out!!!!

[Tatume]

There is no substitute for education. People who do not know what they are doing do stupid things. Plenty of people have killed themselves or others with black powder.

[Ateam]

All good points, plenty of "nuts behind the butts" and they are dangerous. But blaming the gun for their actions is the same thing the liberals do......

[scattershot]

That is pretty bad. I would think it was likely caused by an obstruction in the barrel, rather than an overcharge. Guns&Ammo published an article years ago, where the author actually tried to blow up a ML barrel by overcharging it. At one point, he put 700 grains of powder, followed by a prb, and fired it. No damage was done to the barrel. He miked the barrel after every shot. No change whatsoever. Even after loading with two balls. He was successful in blowing up the barrel, but only after fully seating one ball, then loading a 2nd ball but leaving some space between the two balls.

I’d be willing to bet it wasn’t smokeless powder.

[indian joe]

All good points, plenty of "nuts behind the butts" and they are dangerous. But blaming the gun for their actions is the same thing the liberals do......

I am not blaming the gun - I blame the makers for even going there in the first place - this was stupidity of the first order - further than that lets blame greed on the part of hunters - blokes who want to steal a march on their mates and get a week easy hunting in muzzle loader season - without an interest or any history as muzzleloader shooters - cheat guns put out there to take advantage of a loophole in the legislation - inlines would not exist otherwise. Good luck ! if you dont do it someone else will - nothing wrong with meat harvesting either - from the numbers I seen smashed on the road that needs doin - but sittin up in a tree plinkin bambi on a bait trail with a telescope sighted, smokeless loaded, bolt action, sabot shootin, in line, is muzzle loader hunting ?????? come on.............

[Powder Burn]

I'll be cheating Friday morning. Wish me luck.

[Tatume]

I don't worry about how other hunters hunt. They are welcome to do as they wish. From the time I enter the woods until I leave I don't see another person, don't think about them, and don't care if they are hunting with a bow, rifle, or a Bowie knife. It's of no concern to me. What matters to me is that I am satisfied with what I choose to do.

[fiberoptik]

Back in the early 80’s one of our high school kids decided to take the shortcut through the woods during bow season. Normally this wouldn’t be a problem but he left his brain at home while wearing his nice brown corduroy coat with the nice fur collar. A bow hunter saw a flash of brown fur and let an arrow fly. Teen caught said arrow in his throat, pinning him to a tree. The broad-head nicked his jugular and he bled out in 15 minutes. Sometimes we “need” to worry about other hunters!


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[indian joe]

I'll be cheating Friday morning. Wish me luck.

:grin:Yeah I do - hope you bag a nice one clean and easy - no scarcity of em from what I seen over there
but if the authorities changed the rules and put inlines in the same category as cartridge guns - I bet you be out there monday morning with a sidelock Muzzle loader and still bag one.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=fiberoptik;4505972]Back in the early 80’s one of our high school kids decided to take the shortcut through the woods during bow season. Normally this wouldn’t be a problem but he left his brain at home while wearing his nice brown corduroy coat with the nice fur collar. A bow hunter saw a flash of brown fur and let an arrow fly. Teen caught said arrow in his throat, pinning him to a tree. The broad-head nicked his jugular and he bled out in 15 minutes. Sometimes we “need” to worry about other hunters!

I thought it was pretty crazy wearing fluro coats to go huntin - then I was over there and saw the craziness of the first few days of open season - think I would proly add a flashing yeller light on my cap as well - there was some ratbags about for sure.

[fiberoptik]

He was just walking home from school. Stupid kills.


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[Tatume]

Back in the early 80’s one of our high school kids decided to take the shortcut through the woods during bow season. Normally this wouldn’t be a problem but he left his brain at home while wearing his nice brown corduroy coat with the nice fur collar. A bow hunter saw a flash of brown fur and let an arrow fly. Teen caught said arrow in his throat, pinning him to a tree. The broad-head nicked his jugular and he bled out in 15 minutes. Sometimes we “need” to worry about other hunters!

Would it have been better if he murdered the young person with a cartridge rifle? I didn't say I don't pay attention to threats. I said I don't care if someone hunts with a primitive weapon or a modern weapon. If your point is we should ban bows and arrows, then say so.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=fiberoptik;4505977]He was just walking home from school. Stupid kills.


Bowhunter was the stoopid one - shot at an unidentified target - not sposed ta do that.

[Geraldo]

Found the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18&index=2&list=PLxouw6q1zbzpWesy02_BhTCrfY3YCvOlj

Take a look at the difference between where smokeless barrels let go vs. obstructed barrels.

[Powder Burn]

:grin:Yeah I do - hope you bag a nice one clean and easy - no scarcity of em from what I seen over there
but if the authorities changed the rules and put inlines in the same category as cartridge guns - I bet you be out there monday morning with a sidelock Muzzle loader and still bag one.

I'd probably just give it up. The thought of going back to a shotgun to hunt deer doesn't sound good to me. I only shoot for Mr Mossyhorns and pass on the rest during our gun season. I use my own cast boolet, 45-70 resized to .452. (Fellow member helped me with this process). I'm about 98% bow hunter and 2% gun hunter. Got a nice doe this morning (with bow). There are states out there that specify restrictions on Muzzleloader equipment, i.e. open sites only, side lock ect., and I don't have any problem with that. But as I age, I find my abilities (sight/hearing/endurance) are going south fast. It's nice to know I will have a means to hunt deer well into my 70s-80s. (I hope).

[John Taylor]

Another gunsmith was telling me about an incident that happened with one of the old H&R huntsman. Before the threaded breach plug. Man had a miss fire and installed a new cap. A friend said maybe the cap was not seated all the way so the man pushed it down hard and twisted it with his thumb. Gun went off and breach plug came out pushing the mans thumb back with great force.

[shootrj2003]

Or a combination of ignorant user( remembering that ignorance can be cured by education) and a really stupid salesperson who failed to ask ,powder for what? Or ,was so uninformed that he thought it was the right powder( scary! ) At the risk of kicking a stone down a rocky slope,perhaps a minimum amount of training in propellents should be given to salespersons in the trade.while I have never been endeared of inlines ,being a traditionalist ,I find them,for the most part safe and well made firearms.The ML's have had more than their share of incidences through the years ,properly loaded and cared for they seem safe ,but every incident I have been aware of involved their use with smokeless powder,when with a black powder substitute or bp the story may have been no story at all.

[indian joe]

Found the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsBF6CXs18&index=2&list=PLxouw6q1zbzpWesy02_BhTCrfY3YCvOlj

Take a look at the difference between where smokeless barrels let go vs. obstructed barrels.

Yeah ! good comparison - I notice some commenter saying that smokeless powder burns slower than black ? In the open air yes but under confinement in a barrel ? ---- no way that black burns quicker than smokeless pistol powder there.

[Geezer in NH]

I have to say no. It is not the worst guy may have lost fingers BUT he is alive.

Seen many worse accidents but then I was a FF.

[mooman76]

Apparently this isn't the case but it isn't brought up enough. Never load directly into the barrel from your powder horn/container. It is a very rare occurrence but does happen. A lingering ember can turn your powder container into a bomb and your hand may end up looking like the one in the photo. That's if you survive.

[Hickory]

Back in the early 80’s one of our high school kids decided to take the shortcut through the woods during bow season. Normally this wouldn’t be a problem but he left his brain at home while wearing his nice brown corduroy coat with the nice fur collar. A bow hunter saw a flash of brown fur and let an arrow fly. Teen caught said arrow in his throat, pinning him to a tree. The broad-head nicked his jugular and he bled out in 15 minutes. Sometimes we “need” to worry about other hunters!


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Sound hunters!
Scourge of the art and practice of hunting!
I often wonder how they would feel if "deer" would shoot back at them!!!

[dave951]

I've seen one that looked way worse. Guy was hunting with his 58cal Springfield musket he used reenacting. Crossing a fence with cap on cone, gun discharged hitting him in the elbow. Many hours in surgery managed to save the arm and the Xray is very impressive with the number of screws and plates holding his arm together. No wonder they just cut it off back during the War of Northern Aggression.