Bad lot of primers?

[Shuz]

Yesterday I had 3 FTF and 10 hangfires in a .308 Winchester Howa rifle that was loaded with cast boolits and 17.5g of 2400. I put the 3 FTF rounds in another .308 Winchester, this time a Savage 11 and they did not fire either. In both cases the primers looked to be stricken hard enuf to ignite. Upon disassembly of the 3 FTF rounds, all 3 had powder, and when I examined the primers after punching them out carefully, 2/ea appeared to be slightly darker in the priming compound area under the anvil. The other, looked just like the remaining ones in the sleeve.
At this point I don't want to reveal the brand, as I have nearly 5000 of the same lot that I would like to exchange. Let's just say they are of a well known brand that I have used successfully for over 50 years with nary a misfire.

How do I go about getting them exchanged?

Have any of you experienced bad primers to this extent?

Thanks for any help--Shuz

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I guess the first suggestion is to contact the vendor where you bought them from, if that fails, then I'd search the lot number to see if there is a recall...if there isn't a recall,
THEN after that, ...if you plan to "contact" the manufacturer, I'd do more testing first, maybe find out how many fail out of 100? Take lots of photos at the various stages of the test.

[Wag]

The retailer likely won't allow any exchanges. You'll have to call the manufacturer directly and tell them what's going on. They'll want them back, of course.

--Wag--

[Grmps]

I returned 2 bricks of Winchester L pistol mag primers because 30% failed to fire the first time they were shot and several didn't fire the second time either.

Sportsmans had a no return policy but due to the severity of the problem, they took them back.

This is the second thread this week on bad primers.:holysheep

[Rcmaveric]

Is your gun doing light primers strikes?

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[fredj338]

IT is rare to get bad primers, but does happen. I would stick with it, try it in diff rifle, 3 ftf isn't a ton.

[Hossfly]

I’ve had maybe 1 or 2 FTF in my shooting career. 50+ years. But it can happen, not being as bad as maybe squib and not realizing it, now that would be bad.

[AZ Pete]

call or email the manufacturer, include the lot number. They will most likelytake good care of you.


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[beagle]

Always been the gun in my case and no telling how many I have popped in the last 60 years. Occasionally, I'll get one but it's normally years apart. Ray, it's a conspiracy. The liberals are sending them up there just to stir you up./beagle

[Iowa Fox]

If I was really suspicious of primers I would set a few out on concrete put on my muffs, safety glasses, and then the full face shield. Then drop the hammer.

[White Oak]

I had an problem in my 358win with some FTF that I thought was the primers. Switched to another lot still had some FTF. Turned out that the primers were being seated to deep when I used my press to prime. I adjusted the anvil and it solved it, but I went back to my hand primer and now have no issues.

[Shuz]

My first thought was that it was a "gun problem". That idea disappeared when I put the 3/ea FTF rounds in another .308 Win rifle and they wouldn't "go bang" in it either!
I bought these from a fella locally, but the brown 5000 count overpack has Graf and Sons Inc. stamped on it. Since I didn't buy them from Graf's; I'll contact the mfr and see where this goes. Stay tuned!

[Shuz]

I contacted the mfr and they sent me a FedEx call tag to ship the primers back. They said they were surely interested in product reliability etc.; and that I would hear from them after they inspected the primers.

[jimb16]

I had a batch of Winchester small rifle primers that did that. 10% failure. It happens....

[GregLaROCHE]

I contacted the mfr and they sent me a FedEx call tag to ship the primers back. They said they were surely interested in product reliability etc.; and that I would hear from them after they inspected the primers.

Well that sounds like positive news. I hope you tried a couple in a different gun and some different primers in the original gun. If that all checks out I think you might get some satisfaction.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

[HangFireW8]

You tried two rifles, that was a good test. It definitely could be the primers. But it might also be:

1. Too deep primer pockets
2. Cartridge headspace (shoulder set back too far)

I'm leaning toward the primers, but if you have a cartridge headspace gage, please compare to some factory ammo.

[Shuz]

You tried two rifles, that was a good test. It definitely could be the primers. But it might also be:

1. Too deep primer pockets
2. Cartridge headspace (shoulder set back too far)

I'm leaning toward the primers, but if you have a cartridge headspace gage, please compare to some factory ammo.

I don't have any factory ammo or headspace gage, but the fact remains that with this lot of primers, I had several hang fires as well as the 3/ea FTF that also did not fire in the other Savage model 11. We'll see what the factory has to say.

[mdi]

I started reloading in '69. Continued for several years and due to a messy divorce, stopped and old my equipment. Took a few years off and resumed in '88. I reload for 9 calibers in fifteen different guns and I cannot remember a "bad" primer/FTF. I have found two primers where the anvil fell out, was missing. But as best as I can remember, never had a primer fail that wasn't my fault...

[Petander]

Bad primers can happen in factory ammo,too.

I was doing some test shooting with a friend,we had same kind of 300 WM rifles. Except my friend was using a brake,I had a suppressor on. Accuracy was bad and brass looked dirty, after a while my bolt got stuck. It felt like a hangfire.

It got stuck so bad that folks at Sako had to remove my T3 Tactical barrel to open the bolt. Serious pressure there.

Ammo was checked and the primer lot was bad. I do not have a reason to name the ammo brand because it was voluntary beta testing.

[waksupi]

When I get FTF in a batch of primers, I always check to see if I have a broken firing pin. Since you had misfires in two firearms, I'd say they are defective.

[shootinfox2]

Had four FTF out of 120 in 45 colt. WLP lot FLL292G. If anyone had similar issues, please check the lot. Please post here as I am trying to figure it out. Primers or gun....

[Mr_Sheesh]

I had a bunch of FTFs when first trying to fire form 7mm TCU brass; Weak hammer spring, new stronger spring fixed that. (Was using small rifle CCI primers IIRC, they're a bit thicker primer cups than some.) Not remembering any other FTFs, primers are usually darn good!

[Mr Peabody]

W-W LP primers have been giving me fits too.

[Lloyd Smale]

only bad primers I had was a case of wolf large pistol primers I bought once. Had a couple misfires and got to looking at the primers and found that a couple out of each pack didn't even have anvils.

[Shuz]

I rec'd the Fed-EX "call tag", now all I gotta do is box 'em up and send them back. This could take awhile, but I will surely post the results once known.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I rec'd the Fed-EX "call tag", now all I gotta do is box 'em up and send them back. This could take awhile, but I will surely post the results once known.

I hesitated posting this question before...but since you posted again about shipping them...
How does this work for Haz-Mat items ?
Any special instructions or haz-Mat labeling?

[Rcmaveric]

I used a primer pocket uniformer once and made the primer pockets too deep. There are light primer strikes ftf on those pieces. Whoops.

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[David2011]

The only FTFs I’ve had due to primers not igniting we’re in a Colt Trooper Mik III in which I had installed Bullseye springs. That’s in 40 years of reloading. The gun worked well with Federal primers but I had loaded some ammo with CCI primers which didn’t work with the light springs. I tried to shoot those rounds with another revolver but the dented primers wouldn’t fire. I don’t think that trying to fire ammo in a second gun is a definitive test once the primers are desensitized with a strike.

[6622729]

Yesterday I had 3 FTF and 10 hangfires in a .308 Winchester Howa rifle that was loaded with cast boolits and 17.5g of 2400. I put the 3 FTF rounds in another .308 Winchester, this time a Savage 11 and they did not fire either. In both cases the primers looked to be stricken hard enuf to ignite. Upon disassembly of the 3 FTF rounds, all 3 had powder, and when I examined the primers after punching them out carefully, 2/ea appeared to be slightly darker in the priming compound area under the anvil. The other, looked just like the remaining ones in the sleeve.
At this point I don't want to reveal the brand, as I have nearly 5000 of the same lot that I would like to exchange. Let's just say they are of a well known brand that I have used successfully for over 50 years with nary a misfire.

How do I go about getting them exchanged?

Have any of you experienced bad primers to this extent?

Thanks for any help--Shuz


Do you wet tumble your brass? Is it possible you deprime after cleaning? Water can get trapped in there getting the new primers wet and causing failures. Additionally, could you have handled the primers with something on your hands and accidentally contaminating a few of them?

[robg]

had a similar problem with my savage 116 308 stripped bolt <not spring off firing pin>cleaned the crud out of the bolt body .seems to have fixed it.

[barrabruce]

I have a batch of Small rifle primers I bought cheap.
They were bought when there was a primer shortage.
I thought I had loaded too hot somehow and the pockets were huge and the primers fell out.
After a while I realised that some were physically smaller.

I haven’t found any more rejects after a few packets.

They go bang and I have a couple of thousand left.
I get the odd flyer...maybe it’s the primers.(my excuse)

I haven’t bothered to do anything as I got them for a song after some-one got them cheap.

I haven’t any issues with anvils etc.

I had a few big named primers with no anvils or anvils upside down or no compound but the part of the % would be very small overall.

[Shuz]

I hesitated posting this question before...but since you posted again about shipping them...
How does this work for Haz-Mat items ?
Any special instructions or haz-Mat labeling?

When I contacted the mfr, they assigned an RMA number to my situation and then sent me an e-mail with a tracking number to give to FedEx and all the shipping labels and hazardous "diamonds" to put on the outside of the box. Fed Ex is supposed to pick this pkg up at my house sometime today between 8AM and 6 PM. Obviously due to the nature of the product, it is shipping FedEx Ground. I'll report later how the transaction went if and when the driver agrees to take the package. All costs associated with this shipment are being born by the mfr.

[Shuz]

Well, the FedEx guy showed up and scanned the package and off he went. We shall wait and see what kind of reply I get. Stay tuned![smilie=s:

[sw282]

Shuz--- lt seems you did well. l bought a sleeve of Fed Match LP primers awhile back. 0r so l thought... Box was labeled ''Large Pistol Match'', but the product number was ''GM210M''. So looked at another box of ''Large Pistol Match''. lts number was correct with GM150M. Called Federal 3 times a week for THREE weeks.. Always got the runaround or put on hold.. Did the best thing for ME... l gave those mislabeled primers away... All 5000 of them... Along with a few more thousand Federals l had laying around... Done with Federals

[RED BEAR]

i have been having a fit with primers lately. i originally thought it was a new gun even sent it back to manufacture. it did have a couple other small things i wanted fixed to so it was not a total loss. these are very old cci old tula and new ww and cci. with all the different ones i really did think it was the gun. but no it is the primers not really sure what is going on. i didn't think primers went bad but some are new. even tore down the ftf and put the primers in to a case for a gun that really smacked them and no go they still didn't go off in a gun that almost punches a hole in them. has the quality control gone to heck or maybe i am contaminating them some how though not sure how. the only thing i am doing different than i have for years is to use new finish in my tumbler but a lot of people use it.

[Land Owner]

At $0.03 each, or thereabout, you can load empty cases with primers, put 'em in the rifle and pull the trigger for 100 "tests" per pack of 100 primers. Cases with primer pockets too deep and other FTF's may be found.

[Shuz]

Has anyone tried to "contaminate" primers recently? Years ago, ol Bruce B, did a test where he tried to contaminate them with oil and solvents and they still went bang after being dried out. I personally had 1000 CCI 250 mag primers that got flooded with water about 25 years ago. I dried them out, and even tho I marked the packages "wet primers", I don't ever recall one not firing when they were loaded.I was always a little leary of those primers and never did use any for hunting ammo.

[Land Owner]

I remember Bruce B's testing. It was eye opening to recognize that primers are inherently TOLERANT to nearly ALL of the "contaminants" he used in trying to make them inert. Oil, WD40, water, alcohol, I think was a relative sample of Bruce B's effort. After drying, many still went "BANG". Go Figure. Resurrect that thread. Make it a sticky.

[barrabruce]

I used to keep a packet in my ammo can range box.
I think the copper solvent was playing up with them.
(you could smell the stuff)
Ammonia
O.k.they went bang but seemed funny and groups were every where.
Since I got rid of it I have had no issues.

I store mine away from such stuff these days.

[CJR]

Problems I've had with primers over the years:

1. I used CCI primers for many years in handguns with no problems. Then misfires started. I talked to Behlert gunsmiths and found out CCI had gone to heavier gauge primer cups. Went to another brand primer to resolve problem.
2. Priming compounds are solid after drying but can be cracked if the primer is "crunched" during the primer seating process. So after experiencing an occasional "primer crunching", when seating a primer in a progressive press, I changed my seating procedure.
3. When I experience a slight "crunching" when seating a primer, I assume that I have cracked the priming compound which can affect proper primer ignition. I stop immediately, deprime that case, true-up the primer pocket in the case, reprime that case and continue my reloading process. Eventually all of my "slightly out-of-round" case primer pockets are corrected to being round.

Best regards,

CJR

[Mal Paso]

According to a former CCI official the primer pellet should be penetrated by the anvil during seating for proper ignition. This was an article written for a web site/magazine after he retired.

The trouble is the manufacturers will say NOTHING about their products except that they are the best and so old wives tails are born.

[lightman]

In my lifetime I can only remember 2 FTF's. One primer was missing the anvil and I don't remember what I found on the other one. It was too long ago! Anyway, 3 FTF in a single batch is totally unacceptable! This is not the first thread that I have read about problems with Winchester primers. WW is officially off of my purchase list. I've had really good service from CCI over the years and have also been satisfied with Federal although the only Federal primers that I buy are 210M that I shoot in competition.

I uniform primer pockets on most of my rifle loads and I only use a tool that is non adjustable. I have one made by Whitetail Engineering and a couple from Sinclair. Both are quality tools.

[Mal Paso]

Not the article I was looking for but the same guy.

Allan Jones, Shooting Times:

"Boxer primers leave the factory with the anvil higher than it would be when seated in a cartridge case. Seating so anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket lets the anvil tip penetrate into the pellet of mix. The nearly universal recommendation of having the primer cup bottom 0.003 to 0.005 inch below flush with the case head exists to set the proper amount of priming mix between the cup and the anvil tip.




This critical distance is known as the bridge thickness. Establishing the optimum thickness through proper seating means the primer meets sensitivity specifications but does not create chemical instability. However, failing to set the bridge thickness through proper seating depth is the number one cause of primer failures to fire. The bridge thickness is too great with a high primer, even one whose anvil legs touch the bottom of the pocket."

[CJR]

It is my understanding that when a primer is seated properly, the anvil "compresses" the priming mixture by a precise amount to increase the sensitivity of the priming mixture to impacts and provide consistent ignition. In my view, this is not a "penetration" of the priming mixure but a "compression" of the priming mixture. Real "penetrations" in homogeneous solids are typically unpredictable. Priming mixtures are added to primer cups while the priming mixture is "wet" for safety reasons. The priming mixture then dries to a hard solid which is now more sensitive to ignition from impacts. It follows, that if a hard priming mixture is cracked, from a seating misalignment, i.e. "crunched primer', poor or inconsistent ignition or lack of ignition will be the end result. This is because the priming mixture is now broken into many pieces.

Best regards,

CJR

[waksupi]

I contacted CCI years ago on FTF. I was advised the cup mouth was cut straighter and sharper than most primers, and needed to be seated rather hard to be sure they were properly seated. After I started using a bit more pressure, the problem went away. I stick with Federals now.

[Mal Paso]

It is my understanding that when a primer is seated properly, the anvil "compresses" the priming mixture by a precise amount to increase the sensitivity of the priming mixture to impacts and provide consistent ignition. In my view, this is not a "penetration" of the priming mixure but a "compression" of the priming mixture. Real "penetrations" in homogeneous solids are typically unpredictable. Priming mixtures are added to primer cups while the priming mixture is "wet" for safety reasons. The priming mixture then dries to a hard solid which is now more sensitive to ignition from impacts. It follows, that if a hard priming mixture is cracked, from a seating misalignment, i.e. "crunched primer', poor or inconsistent ignition or lack of ignition will be the end result. This is because the priming mixture is now broken into many pieces.

Best regards,

CJR

That was reported as the true cause of the CCI being a "Hard Primer". That the pellet fractured rather than deformed. CCI abandoned that formula.

I went through FTF issues early in reloading as I started with a Redhawk known for light primer strikes. I bought a batch of really hard Winchesters and properly seated some took two strikes to make a deep enough depression to light them off even with a new factory mainspring. I have had the same problem with some Tula and Magtec. It has been suggested that military specifications are used for all primers made by some manufacturers.

[GregLaROCHE]

I don’t understand the part about the primer being seated deep enough, to put pressure on the anvil.

The bottom of the pocket is flat or in some cases a little concave from previous primers flash. The anvil is not protruding, if anything set in a bit. To put pressure on the anvil. The outside of the primer case would have to be deformed.

I haven’t seen any signs of that in exracted primers. This practice of seating primers to put pressure on the anvil seems illogical and maybe even dangerous.

Maybe someone can explain it differently, so it will make sense to me.

Thanks

[JBinMN]

I don’t understand the part about the primer being seated deep enough, to put pressure on the anvil.

Maybe someone can explain it differently, so it will make sense to me.

Thanks
I am no primer expert, but I think I can explain it...Maybe...

In putting in primers I have noticed that the "legs" of the new anvil appear to be protruding just a mite from the place where they would be when one presses the primer completely into the pocket.
While the center of the pocket may be bulged a bit on the case toward the powder "chamber" where the primer hole is, the outsides where the case is thicker ( in most modern centerfire cases) seem to remain pretty well in place after firings. Thus, the "legs" of the anvil that are sticking out a bit, when the primer is pressed into where they should be at 0.003 to 0.005, the legs then will match up with the primer sides & be pressing on the primer material inside. And awaiting a "strike" from a firing pin.

Case #5 in the pic is what I mean about the support of the primer pocket:
http://www.fototime.com/9A9F8425D3B554A/standard.jpg

I hope that helps...

If not, I am sure someone better at explaining it will come to your assistance shortly.
:)

[Mal Paso]

Apologies for the lighting but here is a Federal 150 showing the legs.

Maybe not all primers are like this, I have no other brands on hand. If the legs on yours don't protrude your manufacturer has a different method is all. Allan Jones said every time Speer came close to Chart for primers one of the manufacturers would make a big change.

[GregLaROCHE]

Well now it’s starting to make sense. I’ve got to take a close look at my primers. I probably just never paid that much attention to them, except making sure I wasn’t putting one in upside down.
Thanks

[Walks]

About 15yrs ago I bought 1 sleeve of WIN SP primers, they had just changed to the blue packaging and from Nickel-plated cups to brass-plated cups. I had 6 FTF in the 1st 100 primers I loaded.

I called Winchester and complained about this problem, They 1st said it was my Gun, when I told them I had tried to fire these "DUDS" in five different guns, they said it was my Dillon press crushing the primers. I told them I didn't own a Dillon, but had hand seated the primers, they said it was my technique. Then they said the lot # was a year old and I must have stored the primers incorrectly. I still have about 1500. I save them for plinking loads, Failure rate is about 5%.

They sent me a $10 off coupon for $100 worth of Winchester Ammo. No retailer would except the coupon.

Haven't bought a Winchester anything since. I pay more for other Brands of Primers or .22LR ammo, Won't even buy WIN powder, even though it's made/marketed by HODGDON.

[lightman]

About 15yrs ago I bought 1 sleeve of WIN SP primers, they had just changed to the blue packaging and from Nickel-plated cups to brass-plated cups. I had 6 FTF in the 1st 100 primers I loaded.

I called Winchester and complained about this problem, They 1st said it was my Gun, when I told them I had tried to fire these "DUDS" in five different guns, they said it was my Dillon press crushing the primers. I told them I didn't own a Dillon, but had hand seated the primers, they said it was my technique. Then they said the lot # was a year old and I must have stored the primers incorrectly. I still have about 1500. I save them for plinking loads, Failure rate is about 5%.

They sent me a $10 off coupon for $100 worth of Winchester Ammo. No retailer would except the coupon.

Haven't bought a Winchester anything since. I pay more for other Brands of Primers or .22LR ammo, Won't even buy WIN powder, even though it's made/marketed by HODGDON.

Yeah, that kind of customer service will sure turn you off.

[Shuz]

About 15yrs ago I bought 1 sleeve of WIN SP primers, they had just changed to the blue packaging and from Nickel-plated cups to brass-plated cups. I had 6 FTF in the 1st 100 primers I loaded.

I called Winchester and complained about this problem, They 1st said it was my Gun, when I told them I had tried to fire these "DUDS" in five different guns, they said it was my Dillon press crushing the primers. I told them I didn't own a Dillon, but had hand seated the primers, they said it was my technique. Then they said the lot # was a year old and I must have stored the primers incorrectly. I still have about 1500. I save them for plinking loads, Failure rate is about 5%.

They sent me a $10 off coupon for $100 worth of Winchester Ammo. No retailer would except the coupon.

Haven't bought a Winchester anything since. I pay more for other Brands of Primers or .22LR ammo, Won't even buy WIN powder, even though it's made/marketed by HODGDON.

With that kind of service, I'm glad the primers I first wrote about, that are on their way back to the mfr, weren't Winchesters!:p