fire forming .303 for a enfield .410

[bubblesdee]

Hi

Just looking for a little guidance.

I just bought a Lee Enfield .410 musket and would like to try fire forming some brass.

I think I will be using Herco or H110 powder. I intend to shoot 1/2 OZ loads.

I can't seem to find any Data about how much powder to put in a fire formed .303 to use as a .410 round. From the information I did find, I am thinking about using 8 to 10 grains of Herco with some wads and about 1/2 OZ of #4 shot. does this sound resonable?

If anyone can help me out with this project, it would be greatly appreciated.

I am not surprised that there isn't alot of DATA out there about how to load a fireformed .303 shell into a enfield that has been converted to .410.

The Rifle was originally intended to shoot rifle rounds so I am assumeing that the breech is rated for higher pressures than a .410. I am sure the gun gan take the .410 pressure. I just don't want the thing to explode.

Thanks in advance

Tom

[JeffinNZ]

Hi

I fire form my .303 Brit brass for my .38-303 using 15gr of Green Dot topped off with polenta. Anneal the brass well prior to starting. Works a treat.

[bubblesdee]

Thanks Jeff

I am new to reloading so I really don't one powder from the other.

What I do know is that HERCO and H100 are available around the corner from where I live.

Just don't know how many grains to use once the shells are fire formed. i.e. I want to shoot some grouse. How much Herco do I use with 1/2 OZ of shot.

Thanks again

[bubblesdee]

Just found out that I can get Alliant 2400 as well .

Maybe 13 Gr of this might work?

[JeffinNZ]

Can't see why you couldn't use standard .410 data. Quite a difference in burning rate between those powders. H110 would be my pick. Check out Hodgdon's shotshell data and go from there.

OH, you could also use .30-40 brass though it may require a trim.

[runfiverun]

definately look at hodgdons data, i would go with a standard shotshell charge.
as then, you know what it is doing. as opposed as to just guessing at it.

[bubblesdee]

After checking the Data, I think I am going to try about 13 grains of H110 to start.

Now all I need to do is figure out the proper wad/wad setup to use.

Any advice ??

[jimkim]

I don't think I can go a week without posting this link. lol Every time I read it I notice something new. http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html

[curator]

First, anneal your brass, at least the top inch or so. Stand the cases in an inch of water then heat the case mouth and shoulder with a propane torch until cherry red. Let cool. Then load about 12 grains of Alliant 2400 or 10 grains of unique. Fill the case with Cream of Wheat or corn meal and a card wad or wax inside the case mouth. Point the gun skyward and fire each case, one at a time. You will get perfectly firefromed cases. Without the annealing and case filler its anybody's guess what you will end up with---been there, done that, and it worked

[bubblesdee]

Thanks Guys

I am just wondering what the best type of wadding would be to use on the finished fire formed brass. Should I cut out my own wads or do comercially available wads fit?

[curator]

You may have to cut your own wads. My commercial .410 wads (Alcan) are a sloppy fit in fireformed R-P .303 brass. I have resorted to using a .45 caliber 1/8" felt wad over powder (8 grains of Herco or Unique), then a .410 commercial over powder wad, 3/8" of Cream of Wheat or corn meal filler, commercial .410 over shot wad, 5/8 oz. shot, and .410 over shot wad glued in with melted bee's wax.

.303 brass has thinner walls than .410 plastic or paper cases necessitating larger wads. You might check with the Circle-Fly wad folks and see if they have "All Brass" wads for the .410. My 20 yard Patterns with commercial wads had large voids in them due to poor sealing qualities in the chamber. I developed my load after much trial and error. The .303 british case at 2.22" is almost exactly the same length as the commercial 2 1/2" .410 shell before it is fired. Being thinner-walled it does hold a bit more powder and shot, and can take a bit more pressure in a converted rifle than a thin-barreled shotgun. None-the-less, .410 cartridges often reach 25,000 psi chamber pressure, so work up your loads slowly and carefully. Once cases are formed I never size before reloading, just reprime and load.

I don't have a .410 Ishy conversion but a Martini Enfield MkIII that was similarly converted in the UK to avoid the rifle regulations. Once I got the load right it is a very good small game gun out to about 35 yards despite being cylinder bore (no choke). You can use commercial 2 1/2"410 shotshells in your converted Ishy (although they do not give good patterns) if you carefully cut off the crimped part of the case at 2 1/4 inch with a razor blade and install a thin over shot wad. Don't try shoting these without cutting them off as there is no place in the chamber for the crimped part to unfold when the shell is fired. Shotshell length designation is always the length of the shell/chamber after the cartridge is fired.

[runfiverun]

that sounds about right, you could also try cuttin off the petals of a plastic wad and inserting a card on top of it.
plastic wads will usually bump up to seal a bore even if it is oversized.
but it is best to just try and pattern , try and pattern.
and don't forget the case length thing.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

For fire forming, the old standby is 10-12gr. Bullseye, behind a sheet of TP. No grits, COW, or cornmeal. You'll probably want to first anneal the cases about half way down.
Morgan

[bubblesdee]

Thanks Curator et all.

Curator, in your post, you state you load :

You may have to cut your own wads. My commercial .410 wads (Alcan) are a sloppy fit in fireformed R-P .303 brass. I have resorted to using a .45 caliber 1/8" felt wad over powder (8 grains of Herco or Unique), then a .410 commercial over powder wad, 3/8" of Cream of Wheat or corn meal filler, commercial .410 over shot wad, 5/8 oz. shot, and .410 over shot wad glued in with melted bee's wax.

I assume you are using the cornmeal just to fill up space in the shell right?

Would it be possible to do the following:

Powder - .45 cal felt wad - say cork or more felt wads to fill up space- 1/2 oz of shot (#4 probably) and then a commercial .410 overshot wad glued in with either Elmer's or bee's wax?

Do people use lots of felt or cork wad in a shell or is there an issue with this?

I assume that I should seat the felt wad over the powder quite firmly?

[jimkim]

I think most of your questions are answered in the article.

"A powder charge of 8.0 grains of Herco under ½ to 5/8 ounce of shot will work well. Card wads are needed over the powder and the shot column, and felt wads are needed over the powder wad."

He then tells how to cut your own.

"These wads can be cut from thick felt or solid cardstock using a home made punch. A 300 H & H case can be sized in a .44 Special seater die deep enough to create about 3/8" of straight wall on the side of the case. Cut the case at the top of the straight section, then again just above the solid web at the base of the case. Sharpen the outside of the case mouth with a deburring tool, leaving the inside edge straight. Card stock is then placed on a relatively soft but flat surface, like a piece of truck inner tube on a kitchen cutting board, to protect the cutting edge of the home made wad cutter. Use a rubber hammer on the top of the card cutter, and disks of the correct diameter will be cut perfectly.

"The card wads should be left "dry," but felt undershot wads should be lubricated to reduce leading in the barrel. There are nice commercial products available for this, or you can soak the felt wads in a 50-50 mix of melted beeswax and Vaseline, then let them cool and dry on paper."

He also covers wad pressure, sealing the case, and answers several questions.

[curator]

Making loads for genuine made-at-the-factory .410 shotguns is not nearly as fussy since they are within proper tolerances. My experience with "converted" british .410 military rifles is something altogether different.

The bane of .410 shotshell reloading is blown patterns from powder gas getting into the shot column. Years ago I found this out the hard way when I switched to Alcan all brass shells. Using the same wads as I had been using to load plastic hulls gave terrible patterns. I eventually gave up on the all-brass cases except for round ball loads. Plastic wad colums with cup-like seals at the bottom had just come on the market, but they were only a little better in the all brass cases.

Several years ago, this Martini-Enfield MkIII "converted" .410 fell into my hands. I got the bug and began experimenting with various wads and loads. My Martini seems to have a tapered bore varying from .435 at the breech to .4125 at the muzzle. To make a short story longer, I tried the cream of wheat filler as a "last resort" having tried all kinds of fixes. I use CoW in reloading cast bullets, particularly when the bullet is a bit under bore or thoat size. It prevents gas blow-by in these situations, so why not in the .410?

The CoW compresses into a hard plug behind the shot column, preventing the migration of powder gas into the shot. It works very well as a substitute "cushion-wad" and is infinitely adjustable by volume. You do need about 3/8 on an inch to get a proper gas seal in the .410 bore. I believe the CoW seals dispite variations in bore diameter and roughness that plague these conversions.

[Mohillbilly]

If you want longer brass you may now purchase all brass .410 from Midway fairly inexpensively.Or for longer and stronger, use Hornadys basic mag and file off the belt and resize(smaller) to fit.Side benifits are the brass .410 uses small rifle,and the converted rifle brass uses large.....

[TAWILDCATT]

Grafs has 410 brass cheap.
Ballistic products has wads ect. allso brass at $22.49 per 25.
wads for brass shells use next size larger.maybe 32 guage.
I have abox as I was going to use them in a single barrel.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[bubblesdee]

Hi Guys

I have been experimenting with my fire forming and it is working out wonderfully. My next question is this. I have been using 13 grains of H110. After I fire off a shot, I look in the breech and can see, what appears to be unburnt powder granules (beige in color) sitting in the barrel. Am I doing something wrong? Should I move to a faster burning powder.

My gun is a converted .303 enfield (.410) and I am using fireformed .303 brass with large rifle primers.

The problem is that I have to constantly clean the breach in order to seat the next shell. Any Ideas?

Thanks
Tom

[SharpsShooter]

I'd not be too concerned unless you are doing several hundred at a sitting. An aresol can of high pressure air will blow the unfired powder clear and let you continue if it is really a serious inconvenience.

Ss

[Lead pot]

.444 Marlin brass would be a better choice for the .410 than .303 brass.
I use the .444 in my .45 colt/.410 Judge revolver.