Just how touchy is BP?

[GregLaROCHE]

When I started telling friends that I was interested in shooting BP they all said “be careful that’s dangerous stuff”. It will go off with the slightest knock or static electricity.

Well I did find a video, where someone tried to set off BP with a static charge and they worked their way up to putting a pile between the two electrodes of a taser and it wouldn’t go off. I guess that means static electricity isn’t a great deal. Right?

I haven’t seen this tested, but someone told me if you hit a few grains with a hammer it will go off is that true?

What else have others heard that isn’t so. What should one be aware of other than the normal precautions with smokeless? Maybe a round touching off others in a cap and ball revolver? Anything else.

Thanks

I’m new to BP, so I am all ears.

[Hickory]

I always considered Black powder the same or more volatile than gasoline.

[country gent]

The difference between BP and smokeless is when smokeless ignites it burns at a set rate. BP when it Ignites is an explosion. Bp is classified as an explosive while smokeless and the substitutes are classified as propellants.

Use common sense when handling and equipment rated for use with BP. I have heard the static electricity also but don't know for sure on that. One simple thing is to keep the amount your handling small. If in a measure a amount appropriate to what your doing. In BPCR a measure empties pretty quick with the charges being thrown. Same with a horn or measure for a muzzle loader. Don't leave containers open on the bench cover the measure when using. With the horn if shooting 10 shot groups have enough in the horn for that plus a little.

At the range when filling my horn I move away from the line and others fill the horn with the amount needed and come back.

[Nobade]

Keep it away from fire and sparks and it's no problem. It won't go off if you hit it with a hammer. It's not a primary explosive. It will, however, burn extremely fast if ignited when unconfined.

[LynC2]

Keep it away from fire and sparks and it's no problem. It won't go off if you hit it with a hammer. It's not a primary explosive. It will, however, burn extremely fast if ignited when unconfined.

This the correct answer. I've hit BP with a hammer to test the truth of that and it didn't go off; however the smokeless did pop!

[GregLaROCHE]

Thanks for the comments and keep them coming. What about heat? If you leave a can in the sun will it explode?

[M-Tecs]

. What about heat? If you leave a can in the sun will it explode?

no...…...

[bob208]

some one did a test on the static el. claim found out you would need to generate enough to lite a 100 watt light bulb. I don't beat on any powder with a hammer. I have been using bp since 1984 never have had a problem never heard of any one else having a problem. all these vile warnings from people not in the know remind me of the robot in lost in space danger will robsion.

boils down to treat it like you do any other powder unless you are in the habit of smoking while beating on it with a hammer.

[LynC2]

Thanks for the comments and keep them coming. What about heat? If you leave a can in the sun will it explode?

From the MSDS sheet: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...ts/9530608.pdf
Flashpoint Not applicable
Auto Ignition Temperature Approx. Range: 392°F-86rF I 200°C-464°C
Explosive temperature Ignites@ approx. 42rC (801°F)

[John Boy]

BP when it Ignites is an explosion.
Not a true statement ... black powder on ignition "deflagurates" - only smokeless powder explodes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration

[Nobade]

I.e. disappeared in a puff of smoke...

[gwpercle]

No more dangerous than gasoline.
It needs a decent spark to ignite , static electricity would be iffy but not impossible .
When ignited , even just lying in a dish, it all goes up at once like flash powder. Very exciting but Watch your eyebrows.
Smokeless powder in a dish just lays there and burns slowly at a controlled rate.... Boring
When younger we tried lighting both .... as an experiment you understand ...
Gary

[GregLaROCHE]

So there’s no problem using a Lyman 55 powder measure to dispense it.

[rfd]

i know of two folks who use lee plastic hopper powder dispensers for dropping black powder loads. they ain't been blowed up in decades of use. it's almost a myth that static electricity will "ignite" black powder. yet the myth continues, even in the face of exhaustive testing.

[Hickory]

No more dangerous than gasoline.
It needs a decent spark to ignite.

Not many people know this, but you can put out a lit match in an open container of gasoline without the gasoline catching fire, such is not true with black powder.

































I wonder what sort of response this comment will generate?

[rfd]

Not many people know this, but you can put out a lit match in an open container of gasoline, such is not true with black powder.

my dad and his crazy buds use to demonstrate that while he was crew chief for AT6-Texans at the randolph army air corps field in san antonio, back in the days of WWII.

[Don McDowell]

So there’s no problem using a Lyman 55 powder measure to dispense it.

Don't know how the instructions read for a normal Lyman 55 measure today, but even into the 1960's the operating manual told how the slides were graduated for black powder and how to adjust them for any given charge of black powder. Wasn't until the 1980's they decided to sell the blackpowder model with the aluminum hopper.

[Cast_outlaw]

My experience with black powder is it’s relatively stable and have even put out a lit match while trying to ignite it but much prefer a hot iron on a stick to stay away from the flash like with my cannon230020 but when loaded in a cartridge or muzzle loader it must be compressed or it can act unpredictable possibly causing an explosion with that said bp is great fun with the smoke sparks and flash so have fun

[Nobade]

[QUOTE=Cast_outlaw;4497 but when loaded in a cartridge or muzzle loader it must be compressed or it can act unpredictable possibly causing an explosion with that said bp is great fun with the smoke sparks and flash so have fun[/QUOTE]

Sort of. It's not dangerous uncompressed in a cartridge, just inefficient and gives big velocity swings. Otherwise percussion Sharps rifles wouldn't work since there's no way to compress the charge in one of those.

[GregLaROCHE]

Don't know how the instructions read for a normal Lyman 55 measure today, but even into the 1960's the operating manual told how the slides were graduated for black powder and how to adjust them for any given charge of black powder. Wasn't until the 1980's they decided to sell the blackpowder model with the aluminum hopper.

Is there any chance of getting a hold of a copy of those original instructions?

[Don McDowell]

Probably, you'll just have to search around used book stores garage sales and the like. Cornell Publishing makes reprints of a lot of old catalogs etc, that you can purchase.

[Lead pot]

I have a old Lyman 55 with a red plastic hopper and along side of it there is a Lyman 55 with a aluminum hopper and both are filled with black powder. Also I have a Redding, my first powder drop that also has a plastic hopper that has dropped black powder since the 50's for me and still dropping it. :)

[rfd]

i dunno where in the world this nonsense about black powder and static electricity started, but i'd bet there's either litigators or politicians or both behind it somewhere. lawyers and politicians. yep.

[Dieselhorses]

Do a search for

A COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW OF BLACK POWDER
Ronald A. Sasse'
January 1985

I have the document but can't post it here. After you read it you'll never have another question about BP.

[rfd]

A COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW OF BLACK POWDER (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a150455.pdf)

[Dieselhorses]

A COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW OF BLACK POWDER (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a150455.pdf)

Thanks rfd

[GregLaROCHE]

A COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW OF BLACK POWDER (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a150455.pdf)

This sounds like some very interesting stuff. I’ve got to start reading it tomorrow.
Thanks.

[indian joe]

Keep it away from fire and sparks and it's no problem. It won't go off if you hit it with a hammer. It's not a primary explosive. It will, however, burn extremely fast if ignited when unconfined.

Agree !!
A small quantity spilt over a large area will/can flash ignite and scare the pants off you
Temerature makes a huge difference to how easy it sets off.
I believe the hammer theory and the static spark ignition is largely a fallacy
However if your hammer strike or your static spark generates enough temperature (360some plus degrees F) then you have ignition - and both of these generate heat so if you hold that hammer tight and swing it hard ? maybe could come back and penetrate your forehead ?

[indian joe]

No more dangerous than gasoline.
It needs a decent spark to ignite , static electricity would be iffy but not impossible .
When ignited , even just lying in a dish, it all goes up at once like flash powder. Very exciting but Watch your eyebrows.
Smokeless powder in a dish just lays there and burns slowly at a controlled rate.... Boring
When younger we tried lighting both .... as an experiment you understand ...
Gary

Differently dangerous than gasoline! you can set light to a 50 gal drum of gas and put it out so long as its mostly full - empty that same container all but a teaspoon full - drop a match in and you just made a house payment for the undertaker!
Set light to a big heap of blackpowder - you and the town firebrigade not gonna extinguish that lot! but a couple teaspoons? might lose an eybrow is all .

[indian joe]

i dunno where in the world this nonsense about black powder and static electricity started, but i'd bet there's either litigators or politicians or both behind it somewhere. lawyers and politicians. yep.

dont forget that chemical companies (powder manufacturers) and ammunition makers have a vested interest in keeping blackpowder listed as a class one explosive

[Deadeye Bly]

I've been using black powder for over 50 years and there is a lot of questionable information in this thread. It is as safe as any gunpowder when stored and used properly. It will not go off if dropped, hit with a hammer or left in the sunlight. The static thing is questionable but it seems to not be ignited with static in experiments. It is now shipped in plastic containers so the static thing with plastic seem to be a non issue. It is stable in loaded rounds either compressed or uncompressed for many years. It does not deteriorate with age. Extreme spreads in velocity in properly loaded ammo can be in the single digits. Clean up is not a nightmare. Water is the best solvent ever invented for black powder. I use a water and soluble oil mixture to clean mine because the oil provides protection form rust after cleaning. You do not need to completely disassemble your firearm to clean it unless you are shooting a Colt type percussion revolver. My Sharps cleans up with 2 wet patches and a dry one and then one with LPS. I drop the breech block once or twice a year but have never found a problem with rust. Marlin lever actions are the easiest to clean. Take out the lever screw and lever and the breech block comes out for cleaning from the breech end. It will always be a class 1 explosive. Treat it with respect and care and you will have a lifetime if fun with it as I have.

[Don McDowell]

A bit of historical information. This thing about putting powder on an anvil and hitting it with a hammer was how Ned Roberts described the way of determining if you had a batch of powder that was unmarked whether it was black or one of the lessmoke, semi smokeless. You simply put a few grains on top of an anvil and hit it with a hammer , if it went off chances were pretty good it was King's semismokless or similar, if it didn't then it was black.

[indian joe]

I've been using black powder for over 50 years and there is a lot of questionable information in this thread. It is as safe as any gunpowder when stored and used properly. It will not go off if dropped, hit with a hammer or left in the sunlight. The static thing is questionable but it seems to not be ignited with static in experiments. It is now shipped in plastic containers so the static thing with plastic seem to be a non issue. It is stable in loaded rounds either compressed or uncompressed for many years. It does not deteriorate with age. Extreme spreads in velocity in properly loaded ammo can be in the single digits. Clean up is not a nightmare. Water is the best solvent ever invented for black powder. I use a water and soluble oil mixture to clean mine because the oil provides protection form rust after cleaning. You do not need to completely disassemble your firearm to clean it unless you are shooting a Colt type percussion revolver. My Sharps cleans up with 2 wet patches and a dry one and then one with LPS. I drop the breech block once or twice a year but have never found a problem with rust. Marlin lever actions are the easiest to clean. Take out the lever screw and lever and the breech block comes out for cleaning from the breech end. It will always be a class 1 explosive. Treat it with respect and care and you will have a lifetime if fun with it as I have.

Good post !!!!!!

[KCSO]

Dust is explosive if fine enough and mixed with air. Bp Is about the same BP dust mixed with air will ignite with static a PILE of FFFg won't. A spark from a flinter is red hot steel say 900 degrees or more. Paper burns at a little less than 500 degrees and ill ignite BP. You can hammer BP and it won't go off IF you don't make a spark. You just need to use reasonable care in use and storage.

[GregLaROCHE]

Differently dangerous than gasoline! you can set light to a 50 gal drum of gas and put it out so long as its mostly full - empty that same container all but a teaspoon full - drop a match in and you just made a house payment for the undertaker!
Set light to a big heap of blackpowder - you and the town firebrigade not gonna extinguish that lot! but a couple teaspoons? might lose an eybrow is all .

I learned about gasoline vapors when I was less than ten years old. I threw an empty metal five gallon gas can on a fire. Lost all my eyebrows and eyelashes.

[Dieselhorses]

Ok so I have to tell on myself. I was in my shop one fine day and I was working on a project that required the brief use of a grinder. I commenced to grinding and forgot about the mesh strainer and bucket I'd used the day before to grain some BP-big mistake! Sparks flew then strainer and bucket flamed up- good thing I had a fire extinguisher handy. Nothing else was damaged fortunately and although this proved I had a good batch of BP, I will NEVER store anything with residue in shop! At any rate I had to go buy another strainer.

[flint45]

I've been using black powder for over 50 years and there is a lot of questionable information in this thread. It is as safe as any gunpowder when stored and used properly. It will not go off if dropped, hit with a hammer or left in the sunlight. The static thing is questionable but it seems to not be ignited with static in experiments. It is now shipped in plastic containers so the static thing with plastic seem to be a non issue. It is stable in loaded rounds either compressed or uncompressed for many years. It does not deteriorate with age. Extreme spreads in velocity in properly loaded ammo can be in the single digits. Clean up is not a nightmare. Water is the best solvent ever invented for black powder. I use a water and soluble oil mixture to clean mine because the oil provides protection form rust after cleaning. You do not need to completely disassemble your firearm to clean it unless you are shooting a Colt type percussion revolver. My Sharps cleans up with 2 wet patches and a dry one and then one with LPS. I drop the breech block once or twice a year but have never found a problem with rust. Marlin lever actions are the easiest to clean. Take out the lever screw and lever and the breech block comes out for cleaning from the breech end. It will always be a class 1 explosive. Treat it with respect and care and you will have a lifetime if fun with it as I have.
What he said. I agree completely. The static thing is nonsense I have never seen it proven.

[Alferd Packer]

A bit of historical information. This thing about putting powder on an anvil and hitting it with a hammer was how Ned Roberts described the way of determining if you had a batch of powder that was unmarked whether it was black or one of the lessmoke, semi smokeless. You simply put a few grains on top of an anvil and hit it with a hammer , if it went off chances were pretty good it was King's semismokless or similar, if it didn't then it was black.
After WW2, the Japanese exported cheap tin cap guns to the U.S.
The caps included with them came on yellow colored paper rolls and were made of black powder. They had the distinctive sulphur smell and were louder than american Kilgore company caps.The rolls were skinnier and american roll caps were too wide to work in the guns.
Perhaps some of you can remember this.
The confectionery typically sold these along with firecrackers and bottle rockets all from Hong kong.
But the Jap cap pistols were ten cents complete with caps that we all knew were black powder.You were never allowed to shoot the Jap caps in the house. They were louder and they stunk of black powder smell.
Also, my younger brother emptied a black powder shotshell on the sidewalk and pounded on it with Dad's good claw nail hammer and set off the pile and blew a chunk out of the hammer head that struck Dad's car next to him and put a deep dent in the door.zThose old cars had thick metal skins on the doors .
I am reminded of that old adage that no matter how many times you do a thing and nothing happens, it only takes one time for something to go wrong to kill you.
People in St Louis constantly run red lights at all times of the day and night. Occasionally there are horrific crashes with the cars flying apart as if a bomb blew them up. The people are in pieces as well.
But most traffic approaches a green light and has to pause and peek both ways cause the buildings are built right up to the corners and the streets are mostly at acute angles at the intersections.
Black powder is classified as an explosive, not a propellant the last time I looked.
I believe the story about the fellow who beat on the powder with a hammer to identify the powder as being black, but i also know that my younger brother could have killed himself or me if that chunk of hammer head would have struck either one of us in the right place.
There are CAS shooters who persist in loading semipointed lead bullets in tube fed lever action rifles claiming they have never had an accident with a lead bullet setting off a primer in the magazine.
Again, no matter how many times...the old adage.
Right now it is sleeting and icy outside as I write this. Traffic on the icy highways is mostly driving too fast for conditions and texting and talking on cell phones to boot.
Human beings are not to be denied their freedom.
Be safe.
God Bless all here.

[1hole]

If open B.P. were as dangerous as some folk fear we'd be constantly hearing of injuries or deaths and walking around smoking holes. I've been into shooting stuff for some 65 years and have NEVER heard of a single such incident. But, no one should be a careless fool because nothing is truly fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool.

[M-Tecs]

After WW2, the Japanese exported cheap tin cap guns to the U.S.
The caps included with them came on yellow colored paper rolls and were made of black powder. They had the distinctive sulphur smell and were louder than american Kilgore company caps.The rolls were skinnier and american roll caps were too wide to work in the guns.
Perhaps some of you can remember this.
The confectionery typically sold these along with firecrackers and bottle rockets all from Hong kong.
But the Jap cap pistols were ten cents complete with caps that we all knew were black powder.You were never allowed to shoot the Jap caps in the house. They were louder and they stunk of black powder smell.
Also, my younger brother emptied a black powder shotshell on the sidewalk and pounded on it with Dad's good claw nail hammer and set off the pile and blew a chunk out of the hammer head that struck Dad's car next to him and put a deep dent in the door.zThose old cars had thick metal skins on the doors .
I am reminded of that old adage that no matter how many times you do a thing and nothing happens, it only takes one time for something to go wrong to kill you.
People in St Louis constantly run red lights at all times of the day and night. Occasionally there are horrific crashes with the cars flying apart as if a bomb blew them up. The people are in pieces as well.
But most traffic approaches a green light and has to pause and peek both ways cause the buildings are built right up to the corners and the streets are mostly at acute angles at the intersections.
Black powder is classified as an explosive, not a propellant the last time I looked.
I believe the story about the fellow who beat on the powder with a hammer to identify the powder as being black, but i also know that my younger brother could have killed himself or me if that chunk of hammer head would have struck either one of us in the right place.
There are CAS shooters who persist in loading semipointed lead bullets in tube fed lever action rifles claiming they have never had an accident with a lead bullet setting off a primer in the magazine.
Again, no matter how many times...the old adage.
Right now it is sleeting and icy outside as I write this. Traffic on the icy highways is mostly driving too fast for conditions and texting and talking on cell phones to boot.
Human beings are not to be denied their freedom.
Be safe.
God Bless all here.

While those caps may have contained BP they would have required addition additives to make them workable. I have shot tightly rapped carboard tubes of BP with a 220 at over 4,000 FPS and none ignited.

Uncontained BP has very little explosive energy. Think what happens to the FFFG powder in the flash pan of a flintlock.

actual BP burning


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGyhsQug03o

[megasupermagnum]

I have no doubt a pound of BP igniting inside a house is bad news, but deadly? I've lit off as much as 1/2 a pound, and it just makes a big WOOF and satisfying mushroom cloud. There is no doubt a quart of gasoline ignited in a house could start the whole place on fire.

If you can pump your own gas, you can handle black powder. The only reason both BP and smokeless powders are charged a hazmat fee for shipping, is that when burning in a large quantity, say 100 pounds in a truck, it never ends well. I don't drive around with 50 pounds of powder in my car, and I don't handle more than a pound of powder at a time. Outside of an open flame or spark, BP won't just spontaneously ignite. Maybe if you left it in the oven? BP is stored in plastic bottles, previously steel cans. Why would a plastic and steel powder measure cause problems?

Let me put it this way. If the plastic bottle it's stored in isn't melting, there is no danger of the BP inside igniting.

[GONRA]

Static Electricity IS a BIG "no no" for Black Powder!!! Its coated with graphite to lessen the hazard, but still very dangerous.

Decades ago. fellow DE gun cub member hadan open can "deflagrate" in VERY DRY STATIC SPARKING winter weather.
GONRA'a memory sez: 5 days in the Wills Eye Center.

You can construct all sorts of test setups/scenarios but its difficult to demo properly....
Be smart, NOT "tempt fate"!!!

[M-Tecs]

http://www.texas-mac.com/Sensitivity_of_Black_Powder_to_Static_Discharge.ht ml

SENSITIVITY OF BLACK POWDER TO
STATIC DISCHARGE
By Wayne McLerran

It’s been many years since I designed and published an article on a semi-automatic
black powder (BP) loading system consisting of an electronic powder dispenser,
digital scale, fiber optics cable, a tall stand and a drop tube. By pressing a single
button the dispenser trickled out a precise charge of BP down the drop tube into the
case setting on the digital scale platen. The dispenser stopped when the scale
registered the programmed powder weight to within +/- 0.1 grains. Knowing this, a
fellow shooter recently asked if I was concerned about using the setup with black
powder since the dispenser is constructed out of plastic and has a plastic reservoir
which potentially could build up a static charge. Prior to building the loading
system and due to a similar concern, I researched the subject extensively,
experimented with subjecting BP to high voltage static discharges, and was
convinced that any static charge created by the dispenser would not be sufficient to
ignite BP. 20 years later I continue to use the same setup without any problems.
But the subject continues to come up in many of the online BPCR forums and is
therefore worthy of additional discussion.

My experiments with attempting to ignite BP consisted of the following. Using
Goex 2Fg and 3Fg I first pounded it to dust with a hammer with no reaction.
Several piles of the dust were then subjected to high voltage discharges of
approximately 100,000 volts with a hand tester used to test static discharge damage
thresholds in integrated circuits. The discharge caused some of the small granules
to move but none of the samples ignited. Around the same time a fellow by the
name of Barry Bush published two excellent and lengthy articles on BP safety in
the 1999 spring and summer editions of The Black Powder Cartridge News.

Mr. Bush is obviously a very knowledgeable guy and did a good amount of
experimenting to determine the sensitivity of BP to heat, pressure and static
discharge ignition. He found BP much more sensitive to heat than smokeless. He
also found that BP is not very sensitive to shock, and is much less sensitive to high
voltage sparks than smokeless powder. Barry passed sparks of up to 20,000 volts
directly through BP with absolutely no ignition. Goex Fg, 2Fg, and 4FA (unglazed
powder) BP was used. The 4FA powder was used to see if the lack of graphite
would allow the powder to ignite. He said that it is conceivable that a 100,000-volt
spark from a fingertip could ignite BP, but the chances are very remote, which I
proved to myself by my experiments detailed above.

In summary Barry said, “Many common perception of black powder come from
those who lack practical experience, and they often reflect confusion with other
explosive materials. Modern smokeless powder has an excellent safety record, but
in some respects smokeless can be more dangerous than black: it is more likely to
give extreme pressures from an overload, more susceptible to decomposition, and
under some conditions, more sensitive to electrical discharges.” In closing he
further stated, “Black powder has managed to outlive most of its detractors, and
hopefully will continue to do so. Meanwhile, shooters can ill afford to repeat
folklore, speculation and hearsay which may come back to haunt them.” The last
sentence refers to past and possible future government regulation on BP due to
incorrect and misleading information.

To further reinforce the above comments that BP is not sensitive to static
discharge, go to the following links at the Connecticut Muzzleloaders website: http:
//www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html and http://www.
ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ignition/eignition.html. The spark
experiment is similar to the ones both Barry Bush and I ran. The key to
understanding the differences in the two ctmuzleloaders.com experiments is the
high voltage sparks in the first experiment and those in Barry Bush’s and my
experiments do not contain sufficient energy (power) to heat the BP particles to the
ignition point. Electrical power (measured in watts) is the combination of voltage
and current. Static discharges generated from friction on plastic containers or
sliding ones foot on carpet and touching another object are typically at very high
voltages but the current levels are very low. The second ctmuzleloaders.com
experiment was based on using a capacitor, an electrical energy storage device to
ignite the powder. Although the voltage level was significantly lower the capacitor
provided a much higher current source when discharged through the powder, which
was sufficient to heat the powder to the ignition point.

Another question that comes up now and then is based on concerns about static
buildup on plastic containers used for shipping and storing BP, especially when
pouring the powder out of the container. What many BP shooters do not realize is
the containers are made of antistatic plastic. Although antistatic plastic can be
made in several colors, clear, red, etc., the plastic containers BP is shipped in are
typically black and contain small amounts of carbon to make the plastic slightly
conductive to electricity (antistatic). So pouring BP out of the containers cannot
build up a static charge.

The development of antistatic plastic was the result of the semiconductor industries
need to reduce the cost of shipping integrated circuits (ICs) in the 1980’s, which
were commonly shipped in "conductive" aluminum tubes at the time. Some ICs
are sensitive to even low levels of static discharge. Most of my career was spent
in the semiconductor industry and I remember reading at the time that materials
with a surface resistance of as much as several hundred thousand ohms per square
inch would drain away any static charge. Using a standard VOM (volt ohm meter)
or multi-meter, one can actually determine if the plastic used in BP shipping bottles
is antistatic.

While writing this article I grabbed a black plastic bottle of Swiss 1.5Fg and my
handy Harbor Freight multi-meter, the one they give away if you purchase anything
at the store. With the meter set on ohms and the sharp-tip probes inserted into the
plastic about an inch apart, the resistance was around 300,000 ohms, sufficient to
eliminate a static charge buildup. Just to double check, I also used an expensive
multi-meter with the same results. By the way, typical non-treated plastic is an
excellent insulator (has extremely high to infinite resistance) and therefore will not
drain off a static charge unless ambient humidity levels are high; it’s wet or
sprayed with a conductive material, which brings me to some solutions if you are
still concerned about static charges building up and igniting BP.

Plastic powder-dispenser reservoirs can be lined with aluminum foil, sprayed with
Static Guard or other brands of antistatic sprays to lower the surface resistance and
drain off static charges. Spraying with a water-diluted detergent solution and
allowing the surface to dry will temporarily eliminate static buildup as will wiping
with a fabric softener sheet used when drying clothes. Or go to the following link
(http://www.instructables.com/id/Creating-Anti-Static-Spray/) to easily make a
solution from three common household ingredients.

I'm certainly not suggesting one can be careless when using BP, but the
experiments discussed here and the additional information presented should cause
you to reconsider the warnings and unsubstantiated myths we in the shooting
community have been passing around about BP safety.

[megasupermagnum]

Static Electricity IS a BIG "no no" for Black Powder!!! Its coated with graphite to lessen the hazard, but still very dangerous.

Decades ago. fellow DE gun cub member hadan open can "deflagrate" in VERY DRY STATIC SPARKING winter weather.
GONRA'a memory sez: 5 days in the Wills Eye Center.

You can construct all sorts of test setups/scenarios but its difficult to demo properly....
Be smart, NOT "tempt fate"!!!

For that to be true, you would need a spark to travel from you, through the bottle, through a powder kernel, and to ground. I have doubts that such a shock wouldn't be lethal to a person, let alone the powder. I'm not even sure it's possible, as electricity always takes the path of least resistance, which is not through the powder, it would be on the surface of the can. Much more likely is a spark fell into the can, maybe from a fire, or someone's chimney.

I've seen people smoking cigars while shooting muzzleloader, I kid you not. That's the kind of nonsense to avoid. Not some static electricity myth.

[GONRA]

Rationalize all ya want guys, but GONRA's comments stand.
WEAR EYE PROTECTION! GROUND EQUIPMENT! BE CAREFUL!

[megasupermagnum]

Rationalize all ya want guys, but GONRA's comments stand.
WEAR EYE PROTECTION! GROUND EQUIPMENT! BE CAREFUL!

You are continuing a myth based on decade old 2nd hand knowledge. You do not need safety glasses to reload ammo.

[LynC2]

You are continuing a myth based on decade old 2nd hand knowledge.

That is a fact, the charcoal used in making BP is an excellent conductor as seen by this picture of trying to ignite BP using electricity.

[rfd]

old, scary myths will never ever die. that's the only fact about black powder and static electricity.

[Lead pot]

It pretty much takes a hot red spark to set off blk powder. The plastic bottles the powder is shipped in is a static resistant plastic like what is used working with sensitive electronic components. (grounding shields)
I stuck my fingers in the cooling fan checking voltages on a vacuum tube plate choke charged with 3000 volts 1.6 amps and the reaction made me bump the choke that blew a hole through my thumb with the smell of burning meat on the webber grill (no blood by the way) :) but that is not the same as a white/blue 100,000 volt static charge. There are different heat static charges that react differently.

[rfd]

the bottom line is that it takes a goodly amount of heat to set off black powder of any granulation.

[kevin c]

Well, I'm convinced now that black powder isn't as ignitable as might be feared.

I'm not convinced that it's safe to do without eye protection while reloading. There are too many other potential hazards beside powder ignition for me to risk my eyes.

[rfd]

messing around with firearms in any manner is best accomplished with eye protection at the least, and during the task of their usage it's as mandatory as hearing protection, lest either or both are severely compromsed.

lighting up a flintlock long gun's pan of bp with the scraped glowing hot steel chard embers of the hammer steel, and having that pan powder explode and create the proper heat to travel into the touch hole and ignite the chamber charge of bp, it sure makes sense that the trigger puller's eyes, that are inches away from said pan, are well protected. my avatar proofs that statement.

[sharps4590]

Then you better sell all your vehicles and never drive again.

[GONRA]

Not to piss off the "Anti Safety Glass Crowd" but GONRA sez its also a great idea to wear 'em whilst disassembling guns. Flying / Bouncing coil springs CAN zap an eye!
>>> Always assume the worst CAN happen! Simple safety measures don't screw up yer life too much! <<<
Think about it.....
As Socrates sez: "Coulda - Woulda - Shoulda".
Have phun guys!

[megasupermagnum]

Safety glasses are rarely a bad idea. I just hate how far things have gone. Now I'm forced to wear safety toe boots at work. I'm destroying my hips, knees, and doing no favor to my back and feet... all to save a big toe one day.

[Castaway]

GONRA, agree 100%. Was compressing a spring around a strut today and before I could capture it, the mainspring seat went flying and hit my glasses.

[Lead pot]

And then there is the person coming from behind and standing along side watching you shoot the flintlock that gets the education what not to do.

[rfd]

And then there is the person coming from behind and standing along side watching you shoot the flintlock that gets the education what not to do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdWDvpCxit8

[mazo kid]

Dust is explosive if fine enough and mixed with air. Bp Is about the same BP dust mixed with air will ignite with static a PILE of FFFg won't. A spark from a flinter is red hot steel say 900 degrees or more. Paper burns at a little less than 500 degrees and ill ignite BP. You can hammer BP and it won't go off IF you don't make a spark. You just need to use reasonable care in use and storage.
You got it! We all know of black powder plants that have exploded. I think it happens in the milling process where fine dust may be created. There have been several fertilizer plants around us that have had explosions....KNO3 dust. KNO3 is a key ingredient in the black powder recipe. As said above, even fine flour dust will explode if dispersed in the air. If the black powder dust is fine enough, then static electricity will probably set it off in the same way. Black powder kernals....no.

[elmacgyver0]

Never load a muzzle loader directly from a horn or flask.

[indian joe]

Keep it away from fire and sparks and it's no problem. It won't go off if you hit it with a hammer. It's not a primary explosive. It will, however, burn extremely fast if ignited when unconfined.

yes Burn extremely fast in the open is its major scary characteristic

Blackpowder does not explode nor even act like an explosive unless and until it is confined.

The more heavily it is confined the more energy it will exert in escaping - there is a myth about that a blackpowder charge can only exert 20,000 or maybe 30,000 psi maximum pressure - that is nonsense - if you have sufficient charge and have it sufficiently confined, blackpowder can shred a sound steel barrel

Re the gasoline comparison - I would feel way safer with a kilo of BP in my garage than a container of gasoline - the difference ? Gasoline will come to the ignition source by vapourising, Blackpowder requires the ignition source to come to it.

[indian joe]

Safety glasses are rarely a bad idea. I just hate how far things have gone. Now I'm forced to wear safety toe boots at work. I'm destroying my hips, knees, and doing no favor to my back and feet... all to save a big toe one day.

Ahhh yes but understand - when your hips, knees, back and feet give it in thats YOUR fault - drop something on yr big toe (aint fun - done that twice - broke a joint first time and burred him up next time) thats an industrial accident and you get to sue the company - who care a lot about their bottom line but couldnt care zip about yr hips , knees, etc unless its their fault.
I am self employed so continue to wear soft toed boots but been forced the last few years to pay exhorbitant prices at the hunting shop cuz its near impossible to buy a decent work boot without the steel cap.

[indian joe]

Then you better sell all your vehicles and never drive again.

who me ???

Yeah lets join the incrowd an buy a 'lectric car - plug him in a tree stump for a recharge half way there while we snooze among the ants and beetles in the summer sun.

[DonHowe]

Comparing black powder to gasoline is simply foolish. Gasoline volatiles, BP does not. More caution is required with BP than with smokeless but precautions are simple.
The easiest way to avoid risk of static electricity is to use a non-sparking Lyman 55 measure with a metal hopper though I have used the 55 with plastic hopper.
Contrary to tip-toeing around black powder I have compressed the stuff 3/8" in .45-70 cases with 0 complications, trying to see how much powder I could cramp into that case. Never did get to 70 grains.

Fireworks black powder is indeed scary stuff but is a whole different thing from sporting black powder. It is graded as "meal" and "flour", progressively fiber dust. Particles floating in air can ignite. But so can wheat flour or wood dust.

[sharps4590]

who me ???

Yeah lets join the incrowd an buy a 'lectric car - plug him in a tree stump for a recharge half way there while we snooze among the ants and beetles in the summer sun.

No joe, those who are scared of black powder and what it's going to do when it jumps out of the can, is ignited by the static electricity generated when you walk across a wool or nylon rug, rotate your powder measure or pet your dog and it blows your hand off. Those who unknowingly buy into all the myths associated with BP. You obviously don't fall into that category. My point was and remains, driving is a heck of a lot more dangerous than loading black powder. And no, I am not an advocate of electric cars. I expect they're ok in metro areas but near useless out here in the sticks. I can count on one hand and have fingers left the number of electric cars where I live.

[Lead pot]

I will add one word of caution on this subject. And don't ask how I know :roll:
Just don't use a shop vac cleaning the mole den floor. You might blow the lid off the vac. :???:

[indian joe]

Comparing black powder to gasoline is simply foolish. Gasoline volatiles, BP does not. More caution is required with BP than with smokeless but precautions are simple.
The easiest way to avoid risk of static electricity is to use a non-sparking Lyman 55 measure with a metal hopper though I have used the 55 with plastic hopper.
Contrary to tip-toeing around black powder I have compressed the stuff 3/8" in .45-70 cases with 0 complications, trying to see how much powder I could cramp into that case. Never did get to 70 grains.

Fireworks black powder is indeed scary stuff but is a whole different thing from sporting black powder. It is graded as "meal" and "flour", progressively fiber dust. Particles floating in air can ignite. But so can wheat flour or wood dust.

Don - the BLACKPOWDER that the fireworks guys use is the same as we shoot (a bit more dirty and a bit less well graded) I have shot several hundred pounds of that stuff ----its the OTHER powders they use thats scary and some of it big time scary .

[indian joe]

No joe, those who are scared of black powder and what it's going to do when it jumps out of the can, is ignited by the static electricity generated when you walk across a wool or nylon rug, rotate your powder measure or pet your dog and it blows your hand off. Those who unknowingly buy into all the myths associated with BP. You obviously don't fall into that category. My point was and remains, driving is a heck of a lot more dangerous than loading black powder. And no, I am not an advocate of electric cars. I expect they're ok in metro areas but near useless out here in the sticks. I can count on one hand and have fingers left the number of electric cars where I live.

just kiddin mate just kiddin

[indian joe]

I will add one word of caution on this subject. And don't ask how I know :roll:
Just don't use a shop vac cleaning the mole den floor. You might blow the lid off the vac. :???:

you musta spilled more than just a couple grains?

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m convinced that using BP in my plastic 55 poses no danger. It’s true that BP comes in plastic containers today. I once heard that they added something to the plastic, so it was conducive and would loose all static electricity. Has anyone else heard anything like that?

[Lead pot]

you musta spilled more than just a couple grains?

It don't get a good cleaning to often :) I used one of those small one gallon vacs and ran it between the concrete floor and the paneling where things get swept under out of reach of a broom and that was enough to put the vac out of commission :)

[megasupermagnum]

I will add one word of caution on this subject. And don't ask how I know :roll:
Just don't use a shop vac cleaning the mole den floor. You might blow the lid off the vac. :???:

I used a vacuum one time very early on in my reloading career. It only took one live primer, I won't use a vacuum anymore. Those computer compressed air in a can cleaners are very handy to keep around.

Speaking of which, I recently cleaned the reloading room, and burned a bunch of carboard boxes, many of which I had swept primers into. I knew there was some live ones in there. It was interesting to hear them pop. Some were in the fire a half an hour before popping!

[Dapaki]

I loved reading through this thread, so must old wives tails and erroneous information but lots of personal insight as well. As is likely with most of you, I have other hobbies too and pyrotechnics occupies my summer months while reloading, casting and shooting occupies my winters.

The reason I bring this up is that I make and use several hundred pounds of Black Powder every year to lift, break and ignite ariel shells as well as Black Powder rockets. One of the things we do commonly is to use 2-3lb plastic or leather hammers to pound BP rockets into paper tubes. These rockets can have a pound of BP in them and I have yet to see or hear of one going off sue to shock and BOY OH BOY, do some of these guys hammer hard!

Here is a friend, Ned Gorski showing off one of his many large BP rockets.


https://youtu.be/xSXfL-y_L-A?t=189

[Woodnbow]

A good friend has been building pyrotechnics for 20 years or more. I used to wonder if one day I’d go to visit and find a large smoking hole where his workshop used to be. He’s safety conscious in the extreme and a very interesting guy, has the best midsummer night parties!

[John Boy]

A friend was in the reloading room and commented how dangerous BP was. So I poured a pile on a steel plate and beat it with a steel hammer. Then I said to Scottie ... watch this. Made trail of the powder on the steel plate and got my lighter out of my pocket. Asked him if he wanted to leave the room and before he could reply ... lite the powder trail. He is now a believer it Ain’t

[indian joe]

a friend was in the reloading room and commented how dangerous bp was. So i poured a pile on a steel plate and beat it with a steel hammer. Then i said to scottie ... Watch this. Made trail of the powder on the steel plate and got my lighter out of my pocket. Asked him if he wanted to leave the room and before he could reply ... Lite the powder trail. He is now a believer it ain’t

stoopid!!!!

[super6]

Ned Gorski's Is a legend. world champ pyro .You had to be there.Swiser Ain"t bad either.

[Wolfe]

I like to measure out my Black Powder Charges for what Ill use it for. .50 Cal, 12GA, etc and then roll the charge into a tissue paper with the Round Ball, Mini or Maxi Ball already Lubed with Bees wax and Lard. thats the way they used to do it years ago. then when your ready to load, just rip off a little bit of the paper and stuff it all down the barrel, add your cap and your ready to go. Make a Possibles bag with soft wood cartridge box to hang on your belt. Usually 10-12 rounds will be more than enough for hunting . if you miss more than that go to a mordern semi auto with multiple 30 round mags and you will miss quicker!

[Gobeyond]

It’s safe if done right. No fear though but normal caution is advised.

[BombDoc]

Biggest issue with Black powder is dust. Most of the accidents with BP have been traced to this. If you read the old military ordnance manuals, checking for dust was one of the main activities, particularly for powder in ships magazines. Moisture and movement will tend to break up corned powder and result in a buildup of dust. Dusty powder was considered the most dangerous as it would both pick up and cause a flame to travel. Naval gunpowder was often coated with graphite to reduce the creation of dust and to waterproof the corns to some extent.

Old powder was re-worked by sieving it through fine cloth, or if the grains had become too soft, it was boiled down to recover the saltpeter.

Gunpowder dust, having a very low mass is much easier to ignite with a spark than clean corned powder. It also forms a plume and hangs in the air around opened containers and will cause a flash over a considerable area if ignited. Static buildup on plastic surfaces will cause a fine layer of gunpowder dust to adhere to the surface. This is really dangerous and will cause a flame to travel across the surface and into containers. This is the reason for making BP handling equipment out of copper or aluminium which will both not produce a spark if struck or allow a static surface buildup to attract BP dust.

[LynC2]

Don,
To be blunt, you are wrong. Static electricity isn't a concern with BP; the carbon in it conducts it to a ground source. However if a lightening bolt strikes it that's a different story as it has enough amperage to ignite it. Proven fact!

[M-Tecs]

Static electricity is a known and documented cause for both grain elevator and coal dust explosion's. While not common when you have dust suspended in the air and a spark explosions do happen.

Since non sparking balls are used in the final roller milling before the BP is pelleted and crushed my guess the same would be true for BD dust. Static electrify is not an issue with BP in the grain form. Dust apparently is based on that's when BP manufactures tend to have expulsions.

What Causes Grain Elevator Explosions?

https://explosionburnlawyer.com/what-causes-grain-elevator-explosions/#:~:text=Static%20electricity%2C%20a%20light%20swi tch%2C%20or%20friction%20can,air%20from%20any%20ty pe%20of%20stored%20grain.%20Oxygen.

Grain produces dust when it moves. This dust is suspended in the air inside the elevator, creating a combustible mixture that is highly flammable. All it takes is one spark and the whole elevator can explode. Static electricity, a light switch, or friction can create a spark that can lead to an explosion.

There are several conditions that must be met before a grain elevator can explode. They are:

Fuel, which could be dust particles that are suspended in the air from any type of stored grain
Oxygen
Enclosed space, which could be basement tunnels, the grain bin itself, silos, downspouts, or drag conveyors, and
An ignition source, which could be static electricity, a lit cigarette, lightning, sparks from welding torches, friction, or overheated equipment.
Explosions can also occur if grain dust accumulates on a surface and is exposed to an ignition source. Hot bearings, overheated motors, misaligned conveyer belts, welding equipment, and cutting tools can all become ignition sources.

Impressive video of an experimental coal dust explosion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkqj8aLQ8EM

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I find it unfortunate that many places stopped stocking it because of regulations.

[LynC2]

Dust from grain, coal and I'm sure BP is a different animal due to their microscopic size. A lump of coal or a kernel of grain won't readily ignite from normal static electrical discharges either.

[1hole]

I believe in reasonable respect for everything but if black powder or mecuric or lead stiffinate primers or tumbler dust (or C-19) were truly half as bad as some easily frightened folk seem to believe there would be a mile wide trail of dead people everywhere ammo has ever been used.

[1hole]

A friend was in the reloading room and commented how dangerous BP was. So I poured a pile on a steel plate and beat it with a steel hammer. Then I said to Scottie ... watch this. Made trail of the powder on the steel plate and got my lighter out of my pocket. Asked him if he wanted to leave the room and before he could reply ... lite the powder trail. He is now a believer it Ain’t

Everyone I've ever known who fear gunpowder of any color has not yet seen the stuff burnt free of containment; once they see a demonstration like your's the fear subsides.

Ditto the terrors of "explosions" of our piddly little live primers. I used to know a guy who let a new brick of primers get into trash he was burning in his basement in a steel wood stove. He said it took awhile for a thousand of those little devices to cook off! :)

[indian joe]

All comments fine and dandy - but - if we fail to treat our propellants with the respect they deserve - someone will get hurt ----there was an earlier post someone ran a trail of blackpowder out in the loading room and lit it to prove a point to a mate -----dumb------ is the only printable word I have for that little demo!!!

What they say about blasters (powder monkeys) - theres old ones, and theres bold ones, but theres NO old bold ones.....................

[megasupermagnum]

All comments fine and dandy - but - if we fail to treat our propellants with the respect they deserve - someone will get hurt ----there was an earlier post someone ran a trail of blackpowder out in the loading room and lit it to prove a point to a mate -----dumb------ is the only printable word I have for that little demo!!!

What they say about blasters (powder monkeys) - theres old ones, and theres bold ones, but theres NO old bold ones.....................

Are you talking about John Boy? First of all, I'm guessing he was not in the reloading room when lighting powder. Second, it's not dangerous to light a small trail of gun powder. I'd go so far that it's safer than your average fireworks.

[indian joe]

Are you talking about John Boy? First of all, I'm guessing he was not in the reloading room when lighting powder. Second, it's not dangerous to light a small trail of gun powder. I'd go so far that it's safer than your average fireworks.

yup - his post said they was in the loading room and he lit it before his mate had time to leave the room - in that case my comment stands and I dont care if he or you is offended nor do I care by how much - out in the yard - who cares - but in the loading room before your mate has the chance to leave - dumb - stoopid - and bragging about doin it makes it way worse............................................. .....

[1hole]

I don't believe anyone here has negated the need for common sense care. What we have referred to has been the near panic some people seem to experience when around powders and primers at all.

[indian joe]

I don't believe anyone here has negated the need for common sense care. What we have referred to has been the near panic some people seem to experience when around powders and primers at all.

" A friend was in the reloading room and commented how dangerous BP was. So I poured a pile on a steel plate and beat it with a steel hammer. Then I said to Scottie ... watch this. Made trail of the powder on the steel plate and got my lighter out of my pocket. Asked him if he wanted to leave the room and before he could reply ... lite the powder trail. He is now a believer it Ain’t "

If I misread this then I will apologise ? .................................................. ????

(have shot over 50 pound of HM powder since 2015 --- I do have some skin in this game - not one of the panic merchant brigade)

"no old, bold blasters"

[sharps4590]

It'll put yer eye out, kid....:-D

[1hole]

If I misread this then I will apologise

Goodness! Read or "misread" .... I haven't a clue; what's your point????

[megasupermagnum]

" A friend was in the reloading room and commented how dangerous BP was. So I poured a pile on a steel plate and beat it with a steel hammer. Then I said to Scottie ... watch this. Made trail of the powder on the steel plate and got my lighter out of my pocket. Asked him if he wanted to leave the room and before he could reply ... lite the powder trail. He is now a believer it Ain’t "

If I misread this then I will apologise ? .................................................. ????

(have shot over 50 pound of HM powder since 2015 --- I do have some skin in this game - not one of the panic merchant brigade)

"no old, bold blasters"

I'll admit that when you highlight it that way, it could be misread. I sure don't read it the way you did. I don't know John Boy, but I'm pretty sure he is intelligent enough not to light a fire or smoke in his reloading room.

[John Boy]

I don't know John Boy, but I'm pretty sure he is intelligent enough not to light a fire or smoke in his reloading room
megasupermagnum, your almost totally correct:
* My reloading room has long work benches along 3 walls:
* All powders are in a fire safe cabinet is a separate room
* All reloaded ammunition are in a separate room
* The reloading room only has reloading presses, empty powder chargers, empty brass in a cabinet, trays of cast bullets under one counter, 2 safes, tools and related firearms accessories on shelves on the 4th wall
The test provided to Scottie was less than an ounce of black powder poured on the steel plate on the work bench on the left. Yes, the short trail smoked when I lit it with a match, as black powder does. The container of black powder was closed and on the work bench on the opposite wall.
And no I am not "stupiddd" as one poster said, because black powder will not explode when not in an enclosed container when ignited to deflagurate (not explode) as does smokeless powder. The 'explosion' incidents usually fires read about at the mills normally happen in the corning house with large quantities of DRY powder being ground and sieved for ratio sizes.

When I reload, there is only one can of powder in the reloading room and is tightly closed and away from the powder charger and presses until I am done so the excess powder in the charger can be funneled back into the container

Now, for the "intelligent enough not to light a fire or smoke in his reloading room" ... I smoke a pipe when I reload with a 20 lb fire extingusher on the floor next to the door to the loading room. Should I not smoke while reloading - agree but old habits going back going back over 50 years are hard to change not having a pipe in my mouth while reloading ... So Be It

[Lead pot]

:drinks:

[303Guy]

Don,
To be blunt, you are wrong. Static electricity isn't a concern with BP; the carbon in it conducts it to a ground source. However if a lightening bolt strikes it that's a different story as it has enough amperage to ignite it. Proven fact!
It's carbon conducting the spark to ground that is the issue. It's a spark hitting a conductive, flammable (and in this case, explosive) substance that is the concern. The spark wouldn't hit it if it was an insulating material. The real issue is that the amount of heat required to ignite the black powder is not likely to be supplied by a static spark. Not unless that spark is quite substantial. A static spark would need to hit a small enough particle to heat it to ignition point. Would a small enough particle igniting produce enough heat to ignite the rest of the powder?

It's like swiping your hand through a flame. The flame has the potential to do serious bodily harm but the swipe is too fast for enough heat transfer to take place. Ever tried pouring a teaspoon of methylated spirits in your palm and lighting it? The flame doesn't burn you because the evaporating meths keep your hand cool. Just don't get a fright when it lights with a poof and throw it all over yourself. That could end badly. It's ironical, I'm a nervous and jumpy person yet when playing with fire I can have nerves of steel.

Risking sparks on black power or any other explosively or just plain combustible material is no less clever than lighting meths on the palm of your hand. So shoot me. I done some seriously stoopiddd stuff in my youth. None of it ever killed me though. (I can't say the same for my eyebrows [smilie=1: ). Luckily I was indestructible in my youth - weren't we all! Well, I shouldn't be suggesting that anyone else did dumb stuff like that. If only I had been that confident and bold with the girls. :mrgreen:

[Nobade]

It's carbon conducting the spark to ground that is the issue. It's a spark hitting a conductive, flammable (and in this case, explosive) substance that is the concern. The spark wouldn't hit it if it was an insulating material. The real issue is that the amount of heat required to ignite the black powder is not likely to be supplied by a static spark. Not unless that spark is quite substantial. A static spark would need to hit a small enough particle to heat it to ignition point. Would a small enough particle igniting produce enough heat to ignite the rest of the powder?

It's like swiping your hand through a flame. The flame has the potential to do serious bodily harm but the swipe is too fast for enough heat transfer to take place. Ever tried pouring a teaspoon of methylated spirits in your palm and lighting it? The flame doesn't burn you because the evaporating meths keep your hand cool. Just don't get a fright when it lights with a poof and throw it all over yourself. That could end badly. It's ironical, I'm a nervous and jumpy person yet when playing with fire I can have nerves of steel.

Risking sparks on black power or any other explosively or just plain combustible material is no less clever than lighting meths on the palm of your hand. So shoot me. I done some seriously stoopiddd stuff in my youth. None of it ever killed me though. (I can't say the same for my eyebrows [smilie=1: ). Luckily I was indestructible in my youth - weren't we all! Well, I shouldn't be suggesting that anyone else did dumb stuff like that. If only I had been that confident and bold with the girls. :mrgreen:We have a lot in common.

[John Boy]

Back in the 50’s, young and dumb, my one and only exposure to no eye brows and a bedroom filled with smoke was mixing home made BP in a mortar and pestol .... DRY
That’s why at the plants the mix in the ball mills is 20% water and then dried during the caking process

[yeahbub]

I was at a BP competition some years ago, and a competitor who was upset at not doing well, grumbling and snarling in frustration, stepped to the firing line to the right of a fellow with a flintlock as the flint shooter touched off his shot. Our grumbler caught a bit of ejecta from the touch hole and angrily exclaimed, "GEEMINY! How BIG IS that hole ANYWAY?!?" From an unknown in the crowd was heard, "I dunno. Stick your head in there and see!" I loved that crowd.

I agree that much mythology abounds about the nature of BP. Who hasn't heard, "It gets more and more touchy and powerful the older it gets! That old civil war stuff is like dynamite now!!" Spare me such "wisdom". I've tried the hammer (on concrete, on steel, and an anvil) and static experiments and could never get it to ignite without heat. Some years ago CVA brought out the Electra (was it?) muzzleloader with electronic ignition and they had a long explanation about what it took to ignite BP tightly packed in a chamber and using a capacitive discharge circuit of some sort to get reliable ignition, especially without fouling up the ignition system. It sounded like quite a bit of development went into it, but they don't make it anymore. The chief difference I notice between BP and smokeless is their respective ignitability. An unconfined train of smokeless burns lazily, and the train is easily scattered and the flame stopped. BP, on the other hand may take a bit to ignite, but once lit, the flame front propagates with astonishing rapidity and any grains it reaches will be consumed. Many a young tyro has had his fingers painfully scalded, thinking he could touch a match to a thimble-full of loose BP and pull his hand away quickly enough to avoid being burned, but without success. Confined or unconfined, once lit, it's over before one can think. The only way to win that game is don't play. Preventive safety precautions are in order, as GONRA notes, but after years of competition and hunting with it, I don't carry my accoutrement in dread of inevitable catastrophy. I have learned from others what not to do - like not to warm my hands at the campfire/space heater/wood stove with powder horn or flask hanging on my person exposed to the heat. Evil, bad suicidal no-no! Imagine getting over an explosion of 1/4 lb. of black, blinded and burned over the whole front of one's torso - alone in the woods in winter and some distance from help. Take it off and leave it hanging away from ignition sources. Same with discharging a pistol or rifle over one's shooting bag, in which is a small accumulation of loose powder over time. I saw that happen, but the brass powder flask in there didn't ignite, thank God. Shooting glasses are cheap and easy insurance, as is hearing rpotection. I use them as a matter of course, as do most.