.44 mag 50th ann. bore

[unclebill]

.44 mag 50th ann. bore

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any members own a ruger n.m. black hawk?
have you slugged the bbl.
if so what was the bore dia.?
thanks
bill

[Heavy lead]

.44 mag 50th ann. bore

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any members own a ruger n.m. black hawk?
have you slugged the bbl.
if so what was the bore dia.?
thanks
bill
Bill,
I've got one, haven't shot it yet, if I get the chance I'll slug it this weekend, heck maybe I'll even shoot it. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[44man]

The bores will all be a little different. It is best to slug your own gun.
But the average for the Rugers I have had here has been .430".

[unclebill]

i came up with
bore .4291
cylinder .4321
44man
i used that micrometer you suggested.
as i am still uncertain how good i am at using it.
i measured a few times.

[44man]

Sounds good to me. You should be able to shoot anything from .430 to .432 as long as they chamber.
That is pretty tight for a Ruger.
They are not as picky as some think. They shoot good with a boolit that matches the twist close. 240 to 330 gr's.

[unclebill]

i sent those slugs to villageidjit to check my measurments.
he got 4321
and
4292
so it seems that i wasnt way off.

[44man]

My .44's have never been picky and I have owned a pile of them over the years. All I have learned since 1956 is that the BH, SBH, SRH and S&W's all love 296 with a Federal 150 primer.

The RH needs H110. I am not sure about the primer in the RH because I don't have one. It is a harder gun to get to shoot so I never bought one. I have worked with a lot of them for friends though, I just never wrote down primer tests with them.

[jack19512]

44man

I recently measured my 50th Anniversary 44 mag again and came up with .430 barrel and .4315 on the throats. Am I correct in that I should probably need at least around a .431 cast boolit?

This is why I think I may not be getting the accuracy I want from the 44 mag because in order to install my gas checks I use a .430 sizer. I checked with Midway and they don't offer a Lee sizer larger than .430.

My cast boolits are coming out at .431 - .4315 so should I just try some as cast without the gas check?

So far for the 44 mag I am using 296 and Unique powder and CCI 300 large pistol primers with LLA lube with 240gr. and 310gr. boolits. I feel that it is time to try something different. If it were you where or what would you start with as far as trying something different? I should also add that I am using air cooled wheel weights. Thanks

[44man]

Several suggestions. First, try water dropped boolits and let them harden after putting on the checks.
Lap the die to size .431". It is easy and only takes a few minutes spinning fine emory cloth wrapped around a slotted rod for a snug fit. It will take you longer to clean the die of all lube first.
The next to try if you don't want to lap is to just run the base of the boolits into the die only far enough to crimp the checks, don't size the whole boolit.
I bought a bunch of .44 Lee size dies and lapped a lot of them for every size I want. I have .430", .432", .433" and .4335" (For Marlin. Yes I have molds that cast large enough.) My RCBS die is .431".
Next, dump the LLA snot and use Felix lube. You should see an immediate decrease in groups.
I stuff the Felix lube in the grooves with my fingers and run the boolits through the size Lee die I need just to remove excess lube. Be prepared to be messy. It gets everywhere. I just use my thumbnail to scrape excess off the noses and have to wipe the brass after loading but I ignore the boolit noses. Does not hurt a thing, just keep boolits out of your pockets when hunting. You need to clean dies often too. Is it worth the accuracy? Why sure it is! [smilie=1:
Do not leave the gas check off. Doing that reduces the drive length and grip to the rifling that extra area provides. A PB shoots as good as a gas check design but don't leave them off a boolit designed to take them.
Your primers are OK with 296. The 310 Lee boolit shoots best with 21.5 gr's and should do 1" or less at 50 yd's.
However, you did not say what dies you are using. They will make or break accuracy right off. You MUST have proper case tension before anything else works. After working with the .44 since 1956 and years of IHMSA shooting, I have tried everything from RCBS, custom BR collar dies to Hornady dies. Hornady dies make the most accurate loads of all the factory pistol dies on the market.
If you are running out loads on a Dillon or using RCBS dies, don't expect accuracy. A Dillon can't be fixed, RCBS dies can but it takes work.
Most fellas think a die is a die is a die, not true at all!
Another thing that ruins accuracy is speed loading with any machine. You must FEEL everything you do. Boolit seating is critical. Start the boolit straight and feed it into the die SLOWLY! :Fire:

[jack19512]

All of my dies are Lee and I have the Lee Turret press. I weigh every charge on my digital scale. I can take the time to do this because I don't load hundreds or thousands of rounds a month like some do.

I think the LLA is gumming up the works on my two Marlin lever actions. It's my fault though I haven't been wiping the noses of the boolits off.

My 44 mag seems to prefer the .310 gr. boolits better than the .240's so that is what I have been shooting most. I am using 20 gr. of 296 at the moment for the .310 gr.

I was shooting today and as of right now I can obtain groups of around 4 inches more or less at around 25-30 yards. I'm not sure I will ever be able to achieve 4 inches at 50 yards much less 1 inch at 50 yards with this revolver.

The good news is the windage problem that I had is gone now but it still doesn't shoot any better. At least my rear sight is centered now instead of being adjusted all the way to the right and still shooting to the left some.

This is why I thought it was time to try something different because I think I have gone as far as I can as far as the things that I am trying now goes. I will attempt to lap my die out tonight, I am thinking a larger diameter boolit is in order. Also will order me some of the Felix lube and try it. Thanks again

[44man]

I can't shoot open sights from the bench. It puts them too close to my eye and I can't line my glasses up for a better picture. I have to shoot them Creedmore or off hand.
You really need a perfect picture and a perfect trigger break without moving.
Don't give up, I am sure your gun can do what you want.

[Bass Ackward]

Don't give up, I am sure your gun can do what you want.


I am glad you are.

My experience is that finding a good handgun is like finding a good wife. You have to go through quite a few to find one you can live with.

I have spent countless hours ascertaining and correcting problems, but if they ain't going straight down the hole normally, you are going to get out of balance bullets no matter how hard you make them or what design you use. Oh you can get OK accuracy at 25 yards eventually, but on out you are screwed.

44s and 45s have been harder than the smaller calibers because they are harder to hold. If a bullet slams into a cone on the right side, it is going to pull that gun to the right out of momentum. That's why you can put a gun in a Ransom and get good groups and when you try to do it and it is all over the place. A well aligned gun shoots for everyone, just not someone with big paws. That is until the cone wears away and you have a more gentle taper that creates less momentum. A self made Taylor Throat, but where Professor gun wants it.


Jack,

Understand what you have, accept that, and then do what it takes to make it come round. The gun will come around as it fixes itself. That could be 200 rounds or 2000, but it will come round.

Get some jacketed and just shoot the thing for awhile fella until you see the jacketed start to shoot like you wish that your cast would perform. Use a known accurate load like 23 grains of H-110 or 23.5 of 296 with a 240 grain slug and bang away. The hotter you can get her, the faster the wear will occur. Cause if you continue as you are, you are going to be doing the work for the next guy who buys that gun when you give up.

[Dixie Slugs]

Dixie uses a .431" die in the Star sizers. We use Hornady gas checks. We have also had good results with .431" in the Marlin 1894 series guns. .431" is a good compromise for both the Smiths and Rugers.
The Ruger chamber throats seen to run about .002" over groove diameter. We have found it's better to size close to the chamber throats.
Regards, James

[44man]

Bass is right, shoot the devil out of the gun. Ruger uses some darn tough steel so it takes time to smooth them. I recommend that every shot be taken to train yourself at the same time, don't just blast away and learn bad habits. However, some shoot right out of the box.
What Bass says is why I do not like a revolver with zero side play in the cylinder. Even line bored revolvers will not shoot good if they are too tight. They line bore using the hole in the frame and then screw a barrel in???? Who says the barrel is right?
I don't worry about Ruger's and have very little trouble with them.
Now my BFR's all have shot right off the bat with cast. My friend just brought a brand new one over and it shoots better then a rifle.
I would do something with the terrible trigger pull the factory sticks on them too. (BFR's also have bad triggers. Ruger parts.)
I don't know what it is with them but I suppose they think the single action is going to be used for quick draw so they put that horrible trigger on them. Now I have never seen a bad trigger on the SRH's, mine broke at 2# and the others I had here all ran around 3# with no creep.
Bass, my friend bought a new SBH Hunter. We loaded some of my loads in his brass and he was shooting 1" groups at 50 yd's with the first rounds out of the gun. (After I fixed the trigger.) I put his Ultra Dot on and it only took a few minutes to sight it in.
Now about the Ransom rest. [smilie=1: We can outshoot the thing from sandbags. In fact I can outshoot it from Creedmore. :mrgreen: Two of my friends, Whitworth and Bioman also make it look sick. I call it a crutch for the recoil shy. :drinks:
Everyone can not shoot a revolver with heavy recoil. I can hand my revolvers that will shoot way under inch groups at 50 yd's, to some of my friends and even from sandbags, the flinch is there. They can't keep my guns on paper. They dig tater furrows in front too. They get settled into a nice sight picture and yank the trigger.
This fact has to be considered when talking about how good a gun shoots.

[jack19512]

Before making any judgments one way or the other I have to find out for sure if it is indeed the revolver or me or even a bit of both. I am in the process of lapping out my .430 sizer. I'm not making much headway yet but I will get there eventually.

I assume that if my barrel slugs at .430 and I am using a .430 sizer chances are I am not going to get the best accuracy. I cast some more boolits and water dropped them this mourning.

I also have to try other lubes. I noticed that you have to make your own Felix lube. I plan on getting a SBH in the future so at least what I learn now might come in handy for me in the future.

[Bass Ackward]

Everyone can not shoot a revolver with heavy recoil.

Add me to the list. Man has to know his limitations.

Burger King had it right. "takes two hands, to handle a wopper."

[44man]

I don't believe that Bass, want to borrow my hat? :bigsmyl2:

[jack19512]

Everyone can not shoot a revolver with heavy recoil.






The funny thing about my Ruger 44 mag is and I am sure there is some kind of explanation for this but the more potent the round the better my 44 mag shoots as far as accuracy goes. I can shoot better groups with loads that bring pain to your hand than I can when toning them down. :confused:

[45nut]

IMHO that tells me your boolits are undersized Jack. The large charge, [pun intended], bumps the boolit up and fits the rifling better, hence the enhanced,[nuther pun], accuracy.
Of course, I could be a fellow bonehead like my buddy Joe. :)

[felix]

Yeah, and they come out of the barrel quicker. giving less chance for a screw up. That's my excuse because I shut both eyes just before jerking the trigger. ... chicken kat

[jack19512]

IMHO that tells me your boolits are undersized Jack.







Even though I didn't know why this was every time I tried really potent rounds, you know the kind that you really don't want to shoot many of them, I had better groups.

It has had me puzzled because most would think that less recoil would promote better groups. I have lapped my mold today and in the process of lapping my sizer and when I am done I will see if any of this has helped any.

I need to try some other lubes also. It is so frustrating because without any real effort at all I seem to do really good when it comes to rifles but really suck when it comes to revolvers.

I have put a stainless Ruger SBH with 7 1/2 inch barrel on my XMAS list. I guess I will find out if Santa thinks I have been a good boy this year or not.

[unclebill]

JACK,
i'll put in a good word for ya.
me an santy are old drinkin pals....

[44man]

Jack, it is the velocity match to the twist rate that makes hot loads accurate. The heavier and longer the boolit, the faster it has to be shot to spin up. Plinking loads with heavy boolits will not work good. It is best to use light boolits for plinking loads. 240 gr's and under. For maximum accuracy even with the 240 gr, it needs 23 to 24 gr's of 296 but it will do fair at low speeds.
Shoot a 320 gr boolit with 7 gr's of Unique and you might as well throw them. It needs 21.5 gr's of 296 for the best accuracy.
Each and every boolit has an optimum velocity. Work too far away either side of that and accuracy suffers.
We learned a lot watching bullets through a spotting scope when shot at long range. Using a model 29, the 240 gr loaded hot would corkscrew around the flight path, reducing the load 1/2 gr or going to a 250 gr bullet made them run a straight course.
This was not seen with the Ruger's. Hot 240's ran straight.
We could not see much with light loads but groups were never good which means they were not spun up enough. A little over spin does little harm and the 29 with hot 240's was extremely accurate but POI would vary small amounts as ranges changed.
Do not ignore the twist rate. You will not cure it with any alloy.
One of the strangest things we seen was with a 30-30 TC contender. The bullet would move to the right so far it was headed for the next 200 meter ram from the one he was shooting at. Then it would swing back and hit his ram in the center. The shooter never knew this. He could not figure out why he needed a big windage adjustment for the turkeys until we showed him.
I took this same 30-30 with a cast boolit and shot nickels at 100 yd's. One time I left the gas checks off and every single shot went through the paper sideways at 50 yd's. No longer a good match to the twist.
Every boolit needs a complete workup. It works until the boolit gets too heavy and can't be shot fast enough or the barrel is too short for even medium weight boolits. You can't spin up a heavy boolit in a 2" or 3" barrel.

[jack19512]

JACK,
i'll put in a good word for ya.
me an santy are old drinkin pals....






Thanks, I appreciate it. Considering I am about to spend right at $1000.00 for a LCD 42 inch HD TV for my wife's birthday present I am hoping it won't be a problem.

unclebill, I realize I am pretty much highjacking your thread, if it's a problem let me know and I will start another one. Since all of my questions pretty much pertain to my 50th Anniversary 44 mag I was hoping you wouldn't mind.

[jack19512]

I have been trying to lap my Lee .430 sizer and I'm not sure I am getting the results I want. Has anybody that uses the Lee sizers ever run the boolit into the sizer base first instead of nose first just enough to crimp the gas check?

The reason for this is so I can shoot the boolit as cast and still be able to use a gas check without having to size the boolit. So far I don't see anything wrong with doing this, just have to use a small hammer and wooden dowel to knock the boolit back out the bottom. Any opinions?

[unclebill]

Thanks, I appreciate it. Considering I am about to spend right at $1000.00 for a LCD 42 inch HD TV for my wife's birthday present I am hoping it won't be a problem.

unclebill, I realize I am pretty much highjacking your thread, if it's a problem let me know and I will start another one. Since all of my questions pretty much pertain to my 50th Anniversary 44 mag I was hoping you wouldn't mind.

no no
we are both doing the same thing.
might as well get our answers at the same time eh?:drinks:

[44man]

Jack, yes, you can do that but the dies are so easy to lap, just make them so they size a boolit .431 and run them through. Lee dies only have a short sizing portion, the part above is larger then you need and will not size anything so nothing needs to be lapped above the sizing part.
I had some boolits that the checks would pull off of after sizing because the base was too small. I used a Lee factory crimp die to crimp the top of the checks. It worked good until I could open the mold for a tighter fit.
All kinds of goofy stuff you can do! ;)

[unclebill]

i am going to use a ransom rest and see what happens.
if i can eliminate me as the source of bad groups.
then i will know what to do.

[Heavy lead]

I think your spot on Bill. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself here. I am a pretty good rifle shot, as far as a handgun, I'm night and day. There are days that I think I'm Wild Bill Hickok, there are days where the safest place for somebody to stand is 50 yards downrange. If you can take out the human element as much as possible, it will give you confidence as to what is going on at the least.

[Bass Ackward]

That's why it is always advisable to have control loads and control guns.

I use a 617 S&W which is a 22 LR and T-22s as a control gun / load. Not because it shoots especially well, but because I know what to expect from it.

It is also advisable to have a light plinker load that shoots well for "that" gun. This will tell you if fouling has become the enemy and it is time to clean.

Much cheaper than a Ransom if you don't already have one. Can't win fair in life or are just too poor, cheat.

[unclebill]

I think your spot on Bill. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself here. I am a pretty good rifle shot, as far as a handgun, I'm night and day. There are days that I think I'm Wild Bill Hickok, there are days where the safest place for somebody to stand is 50 yards downrange. If you can take out the human element as much as possible, it will give you confidence as to what is going on at the least.

we are in the same boat.
1st see what the gun can do
2nd start developing loads for the gun.
once i know it isnt the gun or the ammo there is only one factor left.......

[unclebill]

my goal is to find a bullets/powder combo this gun likes .
and I'm never fooling with it again.
i don't really like load development.
the less time loading
and the more shooting
the happier i am.

[Heavy lead]

my goal is to find a bullets/powder combo this gun likes .
and I'm never fooling with it again.
i don't really like load development.
the less time loading
and the more shooting
the happier i am.

Bill,
I ditto this,
However I have a character flaw, I get the gun to shoot (this is with rifles too), tweak, rebed, lapp the barrel, open throats, buy bullets, new powder, different primer, then whala, she shoots.
Then my character flaw kicks in. I get bored with her, I eventually trade her off for something different, or newer, or older. Start the whole monkey business all over again.
I think I need a shrink!

[unclebill]

Bill,
I ditto this,
However I have a character flaw, I get the gun to shoot (this is with rifles too), tweak, rebed, lapp the barrel, open throats, buy bullets, new powder, different primer, then whala, she shoots.
Then my character flaw kicks in. I get bored with her, I eventually trade her off for something different, or newer, or older. Start the whole monkey business all over again.
I think I need a shrink!
once the one in my hand shoots .
i just buy another gun!:drinks:





think thats why im broke?................

[unclebill]

ive got 8 guns in the safe that i am done with.
when i want to shoot them i just grab some already proven,loaded rounds and have some fun.

[unclebill]

it seems like it's taking forever to get my gun back from ruger.....
it feels like being a kid waiting for xmas or something.....

[jack19512]

it seems like it's taking forever to get my gun back from ruger.....
it feels like being a kid waiting for xmas or something.....






Tell me about it! It seems like it took forever to get mine back. Worth the wait though. I'm not shooting any better groups with it yet(probably my fault)but at least my rear sight is centered and not about to fall out like before.

[jack19512]

Got my Ruger SBH 10 1/2 barrel out of lawaway today and will load up a bunch of cast tonight and hopefully see how it does tommorrow. :-D
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/RugerSBH-1.jpg

[crabo]

If you can't hit 'em with a boolit, you should be able to whack 'em with that barrel before they get away!

[Heavy lead]

Ya needs ya a shoulder stock and bayonet lug. They'd never get away then.

[JesterGrin_1]

Crabo you are not right lol. I think you need a longer barrel lol. But if you have the stock attachment that would be ideal. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

Heavy Lead you scare me lol. :)

[jack19512]

It's one revolver I won't be trying to stick down the front of my pants for sure. :mrgreen:

[unclebill]

i sent those slugs to villageidjit to check my measurments.
he got 4321
and
4292
so it seems that i wasnt way off.

so with those measurements in mind.
what size sizer?

[IcerUSA]

.4315 or .432 as both should size to the bore , if your lapping out a sizer I would lap a little and try a few as it's easier to take metal off than put it back on .

Keith

[jack19512]

Got my Ruger SBH 10 1/2 barrel out of lawaway today and will load up a bunch of cast tonight and hopefully see how it does tommorrow. :-D
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/RugerSBH-1.jpg


The rain finally stopped and I got a chance to shoot the Ruger 10 1/2 inch revolver today. Here is a group from 31 yards. The load was 240 gr. boolit with no/gc and 21.5 gr. of 296. The 3 holes that are circled are my first 3 shots and after checking my group I fired the next 3 shots.

Quite a difference in the 2 groups. Is this a sign that my problem isn't with the gun or ammo but with the shooter? Again I find my best groups are when I don't anticipate the gun to go off. The gun also liked the 310 gr. boolits with 296. Unlike some I am not having any luck using Unique powder with either the 240 gr. or 310 gr. boolits. I am going to look into a trigger job for this revolver.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/Ruger6shotgroup.jpg

[JesterGrin_1]

Like many of us I think it is U lol. It just takes a few shots or so for many to settle down and do some real shooting.

Nice work :)

[unclebill]

I think your spot on Bill. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself here. I am a pretty good rifle shot, as far as a handgun, I'm night and day. There are days that I think I'm Wild Bill Hickok, there are days where the safest place for somebody to stand is 50 yards downrange. If you can take out the human element as much as possible, it will give you confidence as to what is going on at the least.

i used the ransom with my S&W 27-2 8 3/8bbl. .357
and found the load it likes as well as the fact that this gun shoots very well.
now i know it is me to blame !
this is exactly why i wanted this rest.
eliminate the dummy and see what is really going on.

[Heavy lead]

i used the ransom with my S&W 27-2 8 3/8bbl. .357
and found the load it likes as well as the fact that this gun shoots very well.
now i know it is me to blame !
this is exactly why i wanted this rest.
eliminate the dummy and see what is really going on.

Cool, nice gun btw, I'd like to find one.

[jack19512]

eliminate the dummy and see what is really going on.








Boy, have I had to to that often enough. :mrgreen:

[unclebill]

44man
QUOTE ;just run the base of the boolits into the die only far enough to crimp the checks, don't size the whole boolit.
;UNQUOTE

how is that done?
put them in upside down?

[44man]

Unclebill, Yes, with the lee. Adjust the die so only the check portion enters just far enough to crimp it. You have to push it back out the bottom with a dowel.
I use the RCBS lube sizer and the boolit has to be pushed in just far enough to crimp also.

I am getting to the point where I wonder if a gas check is needed in any revolver. I bought the Lee 400 gr .475 mold and it is PB. I asked Lee if it would be better with a GC, I don't remember the answer but the darn boolit shoots super with a max load. I started to make a few molds with PB for it and the 45-70 revolver and all of them exceed my expectations. Accuracy is as good or better and there is no leading in the bores. So I went the same route with a heavy .45 Colt boolit with great results.
I have yet to make one for the .44 but it will be my next boolit.
I am starting to think that using a large meplat, cast at about 22 BHN and fit to the gun, that NO boolits need a check.
I feel they were needed when boolits were shot soft and fit to the gun was not understood like it is now. Since large revolver boolits kill and penetrate better without expansion, why do we keep fooling with gas checks?
I can't speak for revolvers like a hot .454 or .460 though and we need someone to test hot PB loads in them.
Could gas checks for revolvers be obsolete? :drinks:
The cost of the things is a driving force with my thinking! :mrgreen:

[unclebill]

the only reason i bought g.c.'s at all was because of all these boolits i have that have that kind of base.
it is my understanding that using no checks on a boolit that is supposed to have them is bad.

[44man]

That is the same reason I have so many GC boolits, because it is the only mold for the boolit I want.
I would not shoot them without the check. Sometimes it works but some times it is a disaster.

[JesterGrin_1]

Just a thought but why can you not just drill out the part that would make a gas check and have it standard size? :)

[44man]

You sure can, but it is hard to do.

[jack19512]

Just a thought but why can you not just drill out the part that would make a gas check and have it standard size? :)







I did this with one of my double cavity molds and it wasn't very hard. I wanted the option of GC or no GC. It turned out good.