Pass through versus "Energy Dump"

[Rattus58]

I've gotten into a debate about this and would like your opinions. My cast lead bullets have so far, never remained within any animal I've ever shot with cast bullets... well except a large pig where the bullet wasn't able to exit the hide, but did penetrate completely the body cavity. My obersvations are and opinions are that a complete pass through especially with a wide flat meplate, imparts a maximum of damage and energy transfer all the way through the animal, imparting the most damage possible to the animal. With my 58 caliber muzzleloader, I had one bullet enter the front chest at an angle, broke ribs just behind the offside shoulder, and then being trapped by the hide, traveled the length of the deer and exited just in front of the rear leg, taking out the lungs and possibly other organs... she was awash in blood.

But there seems to be an argument for "energy dump" to reign supreme, yet we've harvested two animals that had been previously shot with bullets that didn't penetrate the animals well, one left with an infected shoulder that was putrified, and another that was hit with a bad shot that left the animal quite incapable of doing much but waiting to die when my hunting partner came across her and put her to rest.

So I'm looking for opinions, and science, if there is any.

Thank you...

Much Aloha...

Tom

[Omega]

I've always felt that you needed both, a bullet that would expand enough to make a bigger hole, penetrate the vitals and exit. When the bullet dumps all its energy upon impact, there may not be enough left to penetrate, especially if the placement is less than optimal. I've shot deer or two where there was little blood sign, luckily the shot was good and they didn't go far. In one case, once I field dressed the deer, I found the bullet, almost intact as it had hit a bone at an oblique angle. The nose had deformed but not mushroomed, and had barely penetrated one wall of the heart. Another case, it went right through but the exit hole was such that there was not much of a trail, if it hadn't been a lung shot, I may have never found the neon trail. Which puts me in the camp of shot placement being #1, then expansion with penetration. I would guess that you need a boolit just hard enough to control expansion, so it can penetrate and exit, yet make a hole big enough for a blood trail.

[Rimfire]

Bullet placement and penetration are the 2 main things I look for. The bullet speed and shape are next FP is a better shocker than a round nose.The amount of "energy" is meaningless. How can a 100 lb. deer not be thrown 10yds if it is hit with 2000 FP of "energy". It's because very little energy is transferred to it when hit.

[Jeff Michel]

Personally, I haven't seen an example of Hydro static shock in an animal any larger than a woodchuck or marmot. My observations and first hand experiences are similar to what you describe. I do not believe anyone with any field experience would argue the effectiveness of having a hole on both sides of your game animal.

[kingrj]

When I first started handgun hunting many years ago I was all about energy dump and loaded up some 200 grain JHP's to over 1500 fps in my .44 mag Redhawk...I shot a little buck in the neck at about 40 yards and he dropped like a rock. When I got to him it looked like a cherrybomb had gone off on his neck. I got only about two inches of penetration and if I had had to take a raking angling away shot I would NOT have killed this deer. I have since used only hard cast wide flat nosed bullets in my large caliber handguns and they kill deer from any angle as long as the bullet path goes through a vital area. Some drop on the spot and some run a ways...The problem to me with handguns is that a bullet designed to transfer energy quickly will lack penetration and a bullet designed for penetration will not expand much so a big bore flat nosed hard cast bullet seems to solve both problems. Just my opinion.

[Hogdaddy]

To me all my boolits go through the Deer.. I'll neck shot most all deer within 50 yards or less, All have hit the ground not to be tracked.. As to the pass through all have, though the deer around hear are not that big. A 150lb deer is hugh down hear most are 100 - 120 lbs still above average ; )
H/D

[Larry Gibson]

Agree with Omega; 'Which puts me in the camp of shot placement being #1, then expansion with penetration"

[elk hunter]

Where I hunt tracking is difficult at best if there is no blood trail. Exit wounds generally bleed better than entrance wounds hence a better blood trail. I've shot animals that were dead right there but most often they run at least a short distance and tracking is how we find them.

Bullet placement is important but we or at least I don't always get perfect placement when we don't then a good blood trail is all important to me. Energy dump works if it is timed exactly to coincide with the animals vitals but unless you take only perfect shots timing becomes problematic, I seldom get the chance for a perfect shot. If you're shooting 100 pound whitetails then energy dump most likely works well but, when it comes to big and possibly dangerous animals I want a bullet that expands but does not blow up and will penetrate deeply enough to damage as much as possible and then exit to allow a good blood trail. Your experience may be different than mine but give me decent penetration with expansion.

[waksupi]

I want them to bleed from both sides. That is why I don't like hollow points, as they don't penetrate as well, especially on larger animals like elk.

[Hamish]

Im with Waksupi, poke a hole through both lungs, with an entrance and an exit, they die,,,,,

[country gent]

I want penetration so no matter what angle the shot is I capable, It then becomes my decision to pass or take the shot. A heavy for caliber bullet loaded to its best accuracy does the job normally. On medium and big game shocking isn't that effective as theres more animal and mass to absorb it. Ill bet the buffalo hit with the big sharps rifles hardly flinched when hit with that big slug at 1200 fps or so. Once you have a round that gets to the vitals or past depending on angle it then becomes a matter of accurately placing the shot where it needs to be.

[dverna]

Ideally I want both. Expansion to dump most of the energy into the wound, and a hole out the other side. I feel overgunned using the .308 on deer as most of my shots are going to be under 150 yards and a FP .30/30 is plenty...but I want to be able to take that long shot down the power line if it presents itself. So I wind up loading HPBT 165's that hopefully do not come apart at 50 yards but will also have decent trajectory and expansion at 300 yards.

[bdicki]

Two holes get em leaking.

[megasupermagnum]

Where I think energy dump has validity is with over powered rifle cartridges, especially in an area where other "hunters" are known to steal game you have shot. Thankfully I live in an area where people are respectful, can use nearly any caliber, and choose bullets for a complete pass through if possible. The only bullet that I've seen fail with my own eyes was a fancy pointed muzzleloader bullet that didn't expand. Deer run a long way with a pin hole. We have recovered all deer shot with a flat point, or any expanding bullet so far.

[500Linebaughbuck]

I've always felt that you needed both, a bullet that would expand enough to make a bigger hole, penetrate the vitals and exit. When the bullet dumps all its energy upon impact, there may not be enough left to penetrate, especially if the placement is less than optimal. I've shot deer or two where there was little blood sign, luckily the shot was good and they didn't go far. In one case, once I field dressed the deer, I found the bullet, almost intact as it had hit a bone at an oblique angle. The nose had deformed but not mushroomed, and had barely penetrated one wall of the heart. Another case, it went right through but the exit hole was such that there was not much of a trail, if it hadn't been a lung shot, I may have never found the neon trail. Which puts me in the camp of shot placement being #1, then expansion with penetration. I would guess that you need a boolit just hard enough to control expansion, so it can penetrate and exit, yet make a hole big enough for a blood trail.

i couldn't say it better!!!!!!

[bmortell]

Seems like everyone agrees on pass through. But i been thinking the higher the exit velocity the better, as long as you achieve that by sectional density rather than a less effective bullet shape. Because an exit wound should be larger from a higher velocity exit than say just squezing through far side hide at 450fps.

Id say exceptions for aiming at energy dump is maybe if your one of the people who do neck shots to drop the deer, the deer drops from shock to the vascular and nervous system so close to the brain so penetration isnt such a big deal in that case. For chest shots i dont think stops from energy dump is reliable enough to be a worth while goal unless your 338 lapua'ing deer or 22-250'ing a coyote or something along that scale. But for stuff more like 44 mag hunting any design that would dump a good amount of energy would comprise heavily on penatration, not that it had a large amount of energy to begin with so might as well focus on penatration like a heavy WFN design.

[Larry Gibson]

I've been using HPs in 30. 31, 8mm and 35 calibers for years killing deer, elk and sundry other critters getting great expansion and as far as penetration goes......I'd sure like to show y'all some of the expanded bullets I recovered that didn't penetrate out the other side and not leaving a nice bleeding exit wound but I can't as I haven't recovered any bullets yet..........because they all penetrated through and through.......

That properly alloyed and HP'd cast bullets blow up w/o any penetration in deer and elk is a myth......

[rking22]

Placement is absolute #1, then I want an exit hole and then if there is expansion then that's gravy. There are times when a well placed shot may fail to penetrate, to lightly constructed bullet or brittle hp, yielding only shallow damage. A friends son put a very fast 125gr from an 06 on a big bucks shoulder, they found him 2 months later,almost a mile away. Shoulder destroyed, no ribs broken due to bullet breakup.
I have seen hydrostactic work, I have also seen a 120lb whitetail take a 300gr jhp 4570 Ruger level load and show NO sign of a hit till he plowed in after a 50 yard run. The bullet did not exit the chest cavity, the only thong left reconizable was the very bottom tip of the heart. All else forward of the diafram was blood pudding! Calculate the energy, 300gr at 2250fps,, deer did not react other than turn 180 degrees and dtart running! Perfect placement, total "energy dump" of 2000+ ftlbs, ran 50 yards.
Place a well designed bullet in the vitals and break out the knife. That extra hole and bloodtrail is insurance for when the dead deer dosen't know he's dead and runs off into the nasty thick brush. As far a hp cast, my 375 winchester will put a 50:50 hp ene tp end thru a tennessee deer, build em right and they penertrate plenty.

[Elkins45]

It’s not either/or. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

[dk17hmr]

If I know I’m going to be tracking I want two holes or more for the critter to leak blood. If I’m looking to drop the animal I want energy dump. My shot placement is going to be different also.

[Markopolo]

Well, I must say, shot placement is paramount for me, as it is a rare thing to be able to find much blood at all where I live in the rainforest. Here, I forget about non existent blood trails and focus on penatration 1st, expansion second. A killing shot is a killing shot, but I try to take anchoring shots that will be DRT. The country is so so thick, that if I screw up on a deer or black bear, it could very well be gone for good. 3 or 4 hundred yards run from a bad shot might just as well be 3 miles. I have learned to bring insurance with me though, and almost always hunt with my dog. A well trained dog is every advantage, and she ques me in to all sorts of things I would have missed, and recovery is much more sure in case a shot is bad. Placement, penatration, and expansion leads to recovery. Anything else is a heck of a lot of work around here.

[Michael J. Spangler]

For those that like to read about terminal ballistics.

Here she is. The compendium.

Same applies for 4 legged creatures.

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/0B_PmkwLd1hmbd3pWYVVJeGlGaFE

[sharps4590]

Heavy for caliber bullets with a large meplat. When I have that I don't even consider expansion. After that, shot placement.

[Petander]

Big bullets make big holes. When they are long they also penetrate. No expansion helps if there is no penetration.

I hear people talking about energy dump. Well, I like Ballistic Tip in 300 WM for accuracy. But if I shoot a deer with it at 50yds it sure dumps all the energy within a couple of inches, practically exploding, and the poor critter will suffer.

Around 300 meters Ballistic Tip is an excellent whitetail bullet for 300WM,it penetrates and opens in a controlled way while being very accurate.

A big,fat,long,strong bullet also stops better. I would never rely on expansion or energy dump when hunting dangerous game. You want brute force big bore penetration for a charging animal.

FWIW I've been in a moose hunting club for 20+ years . Taken them with 30-06, 45-70, 338 Lapua, 9,3x62 , 300WM. Never used a 308 which is very common around here. And I sold the 30-06 around 2000... It is good for deer.

[fatnhappy]

I want 2 holes and a blood trail. It’s not too tall an order.

[Chad5005]

I prefer pass thru,shot a doe yesterday afternoon with a 308 shooting 150gr Hornady spbt at about 80 yards,the shot bust the heart in half and she bled good but ran almost 100 yards,entrance and exit were the size of a pencil,kind of concerned me a little but after skinning we found it never touched a bone

[Bloodman14]

I am looking for a through-and-through on deer-sized game, with as much energy transfer as I can get, given the caliber and bullet meplat; I want maximum energy dump into a human assailant.

[armednfree]

You don't want energy dump, you want energy dissipation within the animal. Dump would imply an instant delivery of all energy which would mean no penetration. Dissipation would imply energy delivery over a time period, Penetration.

As far as dump, when I first started deer hunting with a handgun I used a 180 grain Sierra HP pushed as fast as it would go from a 44mag Super Blackhawk. I shot a doe in the neck at 83 paces, she went about 75 yards bleeding heavily. When I found her I had to finish her. The wound on her neck was impressive, and shallow. I could see the jacket inside the wound. It did not fully penetrate her neck. Had I hit her square in the chest I question weather the bullet would have even taken out a single lung. I question weather I would have ever found her.

Then I switched to a 240 grain JHP. I killed two deer. One shot broadside fully penetrated yet the blood trail was rather sparse. The second taken at a facing away angle left a blood trail that was difficult to pick up and was almost too sparse to follow.

Then I went to a 300 grain cast on a whim. six deer killed with all but one that was shot down the pipe not retaining the bullet. Exit wounds were very good without being explosive and blood trails easy to follow. In fact most fell within sight.

I can no longer shoot the handguns due to a neurological problem in my hands that caused a 40% loss in grip strength. I shoot a rifle now and my still hunting rifle is a 45 colt. Three deer killed and no bullets recovered including one that hit on an angle and broke a shoulder. All rapid recoveries with the deer falling within sight.

As far as Meplat size, thing of a speed boat and it's pointy bow pushing the water aside. The think of a barge with its square bow and the water piling up in front.

[odfairfaxsub]

I’m not terribly scientific as some are here (you need sage science though to base my simpler explanations). A man named 44man (I actually loved that guy. Met him a few times and enjoyed every min spent w him and shooting w him and Vic who blessed me w meeting him) and I learned one thing from 44man......wide nose to dump lots of energy and heavy bullet to pass through all the way. I tried many things shooting many deer but the conclusion I came to was .430 or larger w wider noses than not have me really super easy kills. I tried narrow noses, hollow points of the right alloy and not right alloy, etc and my most favorable kills in the boiler room came from your larger nosed.430 or larger bullets. Killing can be done w all the calibers and all the designs. Best ones give you energy dump and penetration

[Distant Thunder]

First off bullets don't "DUMP" energy, that's a lie perpetuated by writers. Bullets transfer energy! To transfer a maximum amount of energy a bullet must have a blunt nose shape, whether by design (WFN) or through expansion (SP or HP), and it must maintain as much of it's impact velocity as possible as it passes through tissue. To maintain a maximum amount of the impact velocity a bullet must have length, mass behind the blunt nose pushing like hell and transferring energy as it passes. The more tissue the long blunt nosebullet passes through without stopping or slowing down anymore than it has to the greater the amount of energy that transferred to the greatest amount of tissue along it's path. The added benefit of this is duration of shock (energy transfer). This "duration" is rarely mentioned but plays a big role in the terminal effect of a bullet, killing power.

High velocity usually works against you in all the above. Moderate velocity kills, plain and simple. Just the facts.

[popper]

E=M v^2. If there is an exit, not all E is lost. E lost can be on water pushed aside, bone, expansion, etc. If it does what you want, OK. Duration in target only has an effect as the tissue shock wave response. Which is a function of E dissipated. Pointy vs flat nose do not determine wound channel, but a bigger exit may allow more blood loss.

[Harter66]

With laws ranging from ;
A 25ACP for deer in Maine , to
Nevada's 4" barrel of 24 or greater cal with a case length at least that of the Rem 44 magnum for hand guns ;
2" minimum OAL , 22 cal or greater and a minimum energy of 1000 ftlb @ 100 yd ;
We tend to have different opinions about delivery of the needed tissue disruption .
We all agree that the disruption needs to be in the proper place , whether that be the brain pan or boiler room .

Based on 20 or so Mule deer in the first person and 5 hogs by my hand I have concluded that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing . I don't care for the bone chips sprayed through out the shoulders and 4" exit holes . Which is what I've seen from everything in an 06' or larger case from 25-28 cal . 30 cal likes to leave less bone spray but still dollar sized exits .

I can't say for 32-34 cal but 35&45 seem to disrupt tissue without displacement of it .

High speed low drag and expansion to double dia sure wrecks a lot of tissue but as long as it's above the diaphragm the critter will likely be in a heap in pretty short order .

For hunting I cast everything to expand . As to yet I haven't used but a full power 30-30 in live game . A 135# hog went about 30 ft with a soft round nose .
I had a 45 Colts 454424 that left a full half inch exit in a hog . So I'd have to say I had some expansion .

BP has been killing stuff with dead soft RB for what 800 yr while generally stopping under the offside skin .

Conclusion ?
I got nothing .
Well sort of .
If you make a caliber entry hole and a half inch plus tunnel through the critical tissues the critters will die fairly rapidly . The exit is only important if you need to track , which should be a pretty short job if you put the bullet in the right place .

[Walks]

Back in the late 1930's my DAD was hired for "varmint" control by a Stockmen's Association. He shot coyote's & wolves from an airplane. He used a Win 94 in .25-35 with his own handloads. He rarely lost a case as he ejected the brass back into his hand. I know he used soft nose bullets from a Western tool company ? ? Just about every shot was a one shot kill.
Mounted Cowboys followed the trail of dead coyote's, picking up the carcasses for bounty. Rarely wasting a cartridge to finish off an animal.
He told me every shot was through & through.
My DAD was a heck off a RIFLE shot.

I've seen one case of pure Hydrostatic shock. I shot a 100lb Antelope at about 150yrds. I used a Weatherby .257 Mag with 100gr Sierra Spitzers. The bullet slipped between 2 ribs and blew the heart to mush before it stopped just under the skin. The little buck sorta of "bulged" for a second and his legs just folded and down he went.

[Iron Whittler]

For what it's worth, I have taken numerous deer and one big bull elk. All dropped where they were standing. No tracking required. SO---- Shot placement counts above all. If the hunter does their part, the bullet will put food on the table. If the hunter does not do their job, The outcome gets quite a bit shaky at best. My opinion is if you are to go hunting, you and your smoke pole should be married. By this I mean you can hit the mark Every time! If you are going to hunt, YOU THE HUNTER have an obligation to make a quick, humane kill on the game you are hunting. If you bang flop your game animal, blood trails and tracking are not needed. Practice with your favorite load as often as possible. Practice on pretty sunny days, pouring down rain, wind trying to blow you off your stand. The point being weather conditions are often far from the best, BUT YOU MUST still hit the mark. As for solids vs.. hollow points, Which ever one works for you and your favorite smoke pole. Put them where it counts and you got meat in the freezer. Iron :Fire:

[BigBore45]

My ideal bullet would expand on a good shot and on a bad shot I'd like the shank to stay intact and push through.

[dave roelle]

Mr Gibson. My experience as well with hollow point cast bullets +++

[35 Whelen]

Energy never has and never will kill anything guys, it is merely a number by which we can compare ballistic qualities of similar caliber and weight bullets. High velocity .22 caliber bullets and low velocity large caliber handgun bullets can have very similar bullet energies, but obviously are worlds apart in how and what they are capable of killing.

35W