New rifle .40-65 chamber

[flatsguide]

This BPCR shooting is addictive. In the two Silouette, I don’t think I’ve been in the game long enough to call it silly-wette, matches I’ve shot I did pretty good, proving the adage that even a blind squirrel finds an acorn.
I’m shooting a Browning .45-70 that has proven to be very accurate with paper patch bullets but the recoil is leaving saucer size black and blue and I mean black and blue mark on my arm shoulder area. I’m on blood thinner so that may be the reason. So from what I have read, a .40-65 will knock the critters over just as well with a heavy 400 plus grain bullet with less recoil. With that said, MVA is making a 1885 action with a single set trigger for me, Ron Smith in Canada is making the barrel suggested by Coltsmoke. It will be in stainless later to be blued in .40 caliber, gain twist 1:14 taper bored and 28 inches. Ron Snover, my neighbor up the road will do the chambering and fitting and milling the octagon flats. I’ll do the drawfilling on the barrel, the rest of the metalwork and stocking. After the barrel is finished it will be sent out for stress relieving and blueing.
I would like to use Starline brass as it will have the correct headstamp. So the question, does any one have a .40-65 pp chamber drawing for Starline brass or gg drawing. Manson will be grinding the reamer or reamers. if I get a sizing die reamer too. I may have to draw up my own reamer to get the correct neck size to match the brass/bullet diameter size plus .004 spring back. Any info about the care and feeding re the 40-65 very welcome.
Ideas, suggestions and constructive criticism very welcome.
Thanks Richard

[Chill Wills]

Hook, Line and Sinker. :p

Welcome to the club.

[rfd]

richard, yer doomed. :veryconfu and that's a good thing. :bigsmyl2:

[Don McDowell]

There's a ton of 40-65 chamber designs. Manson should have drawings for most of Dan Theodore's 40-65 chambers, along with others. Not sure who came up with C Sharps chamber design, but it works well with Scrapline brass and either patched or greasers.

[Lead pot]

Richard you can use my .40-65 drawing. It is for the Starline brass but it's a PP chamber only, it will not except a GG bullet. If you want to shoot a greaser you can enlarge the neck dimensions.
I had this CPA rifle build especially for the silhouette matches and it has a 14 ROT Douglas barrel on it but I haven't had time to work with this rifle. The last match I shot in September At Cadillac Mich. I used this rifle using rounds just filled with powder and bullets from new moulds hoping I had time to test before the match but this did not happen so I shot the match with what I had.

It started bad with only 4 sighter shots allowed and a 2 MOA 10 ring the last sighter went into the 9 ring and going for score then things went down hill into a 7 and 6 with 3 misses in a row and I ended up with a 40. The rear scope mount was loose and the scope fell off rear block on the last shot fired.
The second relay things went better and after three shots fired for the rest of the day I checked the rear screws and at times it took a 1/4 turn to tighten them again but I shot a 80 and 83 from the 600.
I used lock tire and let the rifle set over night and for the 500 things went better with 91/0--95/1---94/2. I think with some load development this will improve. I hust threw some Swiss and OE loads together with 64 grains each but different bullets for each powder loads. The Swiss 64 gr 1.5 F I used the Brooks prolate 393 gr 393 diameter 1.396 long at 600.

On the 500 I used 64 gr of 2F OE with the BA ellipticaL 415 gr 394 diameter 1.455 long. Now this is a custom mould I had Jim make with my specks,I have three moulds I ordered for this rifle and all three shoot good at 200 yards but need testing for longer ranges.

229621

[Lead pot]

Forgot;
I normally order a sizing reamer for a uncommon chamber reamer like the original .44-75 Ballard chamber and make my own sizing die for forming proper cases for the chamber. This print above I did not make a reamer for it because I had a set of .40-65 Lyman dies and I ran some cases through the die and took measurements and all that needed to be done with the die was cutting the easy edge off the die mouth to tighten the base. The print shows a .502" ahead of the rim and it came .501" that is a little tighter then the Lyman die had.

[GregLaROCHE]

I don’t understand why so many people say the .45-70 has so much recoil. I’ve shot it for many years with hot smokeless loads and have never had anything to complain about.

It is very important to have it positioned properly in your shoulder tight, so there is no jump. If you have it against your arm and not in the proper shoulder spot you are sure to get a blue that will last for quite a while. This will happen even with less powerful calibers and cartridges.

[kokomokid]

Is your neighbor Ron Snover or Ron Long? My Ron Long 40-65 was a little picky due to tight neck and long free bore But a tack driver when I got the load worked out. I use a Shooters Friend slip on recoil pad on my 45-70 and larger.

[Gunlaker]

You might want to hold off on the reamer and bullet until you get the barrel. I have several of Ron Smith's barrels. Some of them have much tighter bores than what you might expect. They do shoot very well though.

Chris.

[flatsguide]

I don’t understand why so many people say the .45-70 has so much recoil. I’ve shot it for many years with hot smokeless loads and have never had anything to complain about.
I don't either Greg...A bunch of girly men I think. LOL
Ron Snover is my neighbor, But Ron Long and I were freinds in Denver many years ago and we shot muzzle loaders then. Fond memories, that was in the early '70s.

[Lincoln Creek]

I don’t understand why so many people say the .45-70 has so much recoil. I’ve shot it for many years with hot smokeless loads and have never had anything to complain about.


No disrespect intended, but take your hot smokeless powder loads(loaded with a 540 grain bullet)and lay down prone and shoot 15 rounds in 12 minutes. Do that again and again until you’ve shot 60 rounds.
Then when you get up the next morning do the same exact thing. If you don’t have a recoil pad on your rifle, you will have a bruise.

[indian joe]

I don't either Greg...A bunch of girly men I think. LOL
Ron Snover is my neighbor, But Ron Long and I were freinds in Denver many years ago and we shot muzzle loaders then. Fond memories, that was in the early '70s.

Had a little sharps carbine - skinny little stock - 8 pound rifle - steel buttplate - prone with 525 postell and a sharp load of FFFg - ya might change yr mind about girly! It dont take 60 either - nor a hot smokeless load - that caper stopped bein fun from about shot no 2.
I have about got it fixed now
No matter how big a hero anyone is with recoil - nobody is gonna consistently shoot to their potential with something that hurts -- prone is the bit that hurts - that puts ya in the chiropractors office .

[flatsguide]

Indian joe....lighten up that was a lighthearted put down. I’ve shot .460 Weatherby’s prone, 577 nitro express my backup rifle was a nine pound prewar magnum length Mod 70 action in .450 Ackley mag at nine pounds I don’t flinch my mind goes beyond recoil for the most part but it does get to you physically No need to be over gunned. In fact if I stay healthy I have a long range rifle based on a ..45-90. Now back to the .40-65.

[indian joe]

Indian joe....lighten up that was a lighthearted put down. I’ve shot .460 Weatherby’s prone, 577 nitro express my backup rifle was a nine pound prewar magnum length Mod 70 action in .450 Ackley mag at nine pounds I don’t flinch my mind goes beyond recoil for the most part but it does get to you physically No need to be over gunned. In fact if I stay healthy I have a long range rifle based on a ..45-90. Now back to the .40-65.

I wasnt bein perticulerly serios there - looks like we use our language different south of the equator .
If you shot 460 weatherby prone more n a couple times - u either quite crazy or built like the proverbial brick dunny or some combination thereof :bigsmyl2:

While we are on this what about the 40/82? original 1886 was a lighter boolit round but no reason with appropriate twist that this case couldnt handle say 400 to 450grainers ? Reason I ask is a friend has the reamer and would do the work - that little sharps could stand a new barrel - we (Aussies ) are gonna wake up one morning and no longer able to get a barrel in the mail like can now (local manufactured ) I am not serious enough shooter to do the paper patch thing I think - GG loads in 40-82 would/should have similar reach to a 40-65 shooting PP? -- 45-90 brass not cheap but not so difficult to find either and forming to 40/82 no big deal . There must be something wrong with this idea? not many blokes talk about it? what do ya reckon???
No hero here but recoil in a twelve pound rifle in this calibre should be ok - am shooting a 45/75 with 500 grain bolits at the moment
(10 pound gun) not expecting to become a cripple any time soon from that!

[flatsguide]

Kurt, thanks for that print of the chamber and you thoughts and suggestions. I ordered that mold from BACo. The JIK 395415. I’m going to wait and find out what the actual bore diameter is before ordering the reamers as Gunlsker suggested. Thanks Chris.

[GregLaROCHE]

I didn’t mean to start a controversy. I admit, I don’t shoot prone much and certainly not 60 in a row.

Has there ever been a device built that tested the amount of recoil from various rifles and loads?

[country gent]

I believe Guns and Ammo had a crude test of a very few rifles many years ago. The Author made cart on wheels with a rifle mount on it. rifle were mounted and fired the amount the cart rolled back was measured. Like I said a very rough test but it did answer some questions. Another way to see this go to a benchrest match where the Iron monsters are competing these are return to battery rifles remotely fired with a remote cameras trigger and recoil on a set of rails. watch how far they move when fired. The old external scopes will also show recoil with their movement in the rings if the spring is removed from them. My MVA Malcomb style scopes move in the rings when fired ( this is from memory) 45-90 2 1/2-3" , 45-70 2"- 2 3/4" these are both with 550 grn bullets. 40-65 moves 1/12"-2" with the 400 grn and 38-55 is around 1 1/4-1 1/2".

I tooo have shot 45-90,45-70,40-65 and 38-55 on a days shilouette match. After 60 -70 rds with the 45-90 and 550 grn bullets Im beat and sore. My partner is driving home. The 45-70 is quite as bad but is right up there. If it weren't for the breaks scoring for the next relay and change overs I might not make it thru with these. I don't flinch but the concentration to not and the actual recoil levels are physically draining. The 40-65 is better here with the 400 grn bullets and I have "more" left in me at the end of the day. This shows on the ram scores too. And last is the 38-55 that's is a dream to shoot and use for the day. recoil is next to nothing with the 460 grn bullets performance is good and the ram scores are up more at the end of the day. My rifles are all in the 11 1/2lb to 12lb range. I shoot a MVA Malcomb scope most of the time.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt, thanks for that print of the chamber and you thoughts and suggestions. I ordered that mold from BACo. The JIK 395415. I’m going to wait and find out what the actual bore diameter is before ordering the reamers as Gunlsker suggested. Thanks Chris.

Just to give you an example, I have two RKS barrels in .38 cal that I shoot breech seated PP bullets in. The first is an older barrel and takes a .363" bullet wrapped in Seth Cole 55W which fits snugly. The second, recently built, one can use that bullet but requires a mechanical seater with a lot of force to seat the bullet. As far as I can tell the bore is 0.365" which is super tight for a .38.

I'm sure you will like the barrel though. I don't know anyone who has one that is not very happy with it.

The rifle you are building sounds perfect for the job!

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

I'm sure you will like the barrel though. I don't know anyone who has one that is not very happy with it.
Chris.

Chris, are you shooting any Ron Smith gain twist barrels for use in BPCR silhouette? What has been your experience getting them where you are happy with the accuracy.
Are they any more accurate than a regular twist barrel (in your opinion)

Gain twist barrels make up a very small minority out there -specifically BPCR Silhouette- and the few riflemen that report to on them review mixed.

I have a Stainless Steel take off barrel, Ron Smith gain twist 31 to 16 45cal. I am not sure what it is going to be on or just sold.

Flatsguide, consider a regular barrel as a almost sure deal accuracy wise. Of course a little risk and trying something out of the ordinary and then making it work is fun too. I just thought I would bring this up for consideration as well as my learning from Chris's experience would make aother data point for me too.

BTW - we likely know a lot of the same names from Denver ML days. Many of them moved into the early Denver Gateway range BPCR Silhouette matches in the eighties where I met them.

[indian joe]

I didn’t mean to start a controversy. I admit, I don’t shoot prone much and certainly not 60 in a row.

Has there ever been a device built that tested the amount of recoil from various rifles and loads?

Greg
No controversy -- we just havin a bit of fun
There is a calculator free to use on the net someplace - feed in boolit weight - powder charge - velocity - weight of the rifle - it gives a pretty fair comparison - other things being equal (which they often are not) - felt recoil is often a different thing than actual though - good stock design for the event in question, proper fit to the individual shooter, all makes a difference -- I dont rate the 45/70 at blackpowder level as a serious problem but mine had a bunch of things wrong. Shooting prone really is the killer - mine would get me down my spine several days after a match (I am only 5'8"and almost 70 not in as good physical shape as I should be) . Most of us can take a fair jolt standing or sitting even - the body can move with the recoil.
Perception is part of this, I had the opportunity (visiting the midwest) to shoot a friends S&W 500 handgun, only 360 grain factory loads, was pleasantly surprised, its a big pistol well designed, I only took 5 rounds with me, (worse luck!), wasnt scared of it but I took it seriously, and I did ok, didnt think that was any big deal but I see ijits on utube with long barrl versions of that same gun and cant control it at all

[flatsguide]

Chill, did you know George Orndorff? He and I shot competitive pistol bullseye shooting in the early seventies. I moved from a Denver around 78 and returned to fly for Rocky Mountain Airways when BPCR shooting was taking off(no pun intended). George was really getting into that but I had another sport at that time. Fond memories indeed. Getting back into shooting at 80 years old is still fun but the body has other ideas, ha ha.
Spoke to a number of shooters that are using Ron Smiths Stainless gain twist and having very good luck. Coltsmoke comes to mind first. He is a hell of a shot and thinks they are first rate barrels.

[Lead pot]

I wish Ron would make a .438/446 barrel. I called him about a .44 left hand gain twist but all he would do is a .416.
I just might have him make a .40. Like I need another :)

[Gunlaker]

Chill, I haven't used any of my Ron Smith barrels in competition actually, well except for one in a .32-40 that I shot black powder bench-rest in Tacoma. I have been using my Shiloh rifles for all of my silhouette/BPTR matches. I decided to go that route as there just aren't any gunsmiths in my neck of the woods and my Shiloh rifles just shoot so well for me.

Most of my RKS barrels are on schuetzen rifles and I sort of lost focus on that when I got addicted to BPTR. I do have two .45 cal rifles with RKS barrels. One is a .45-70 gain twist ending in 1:17.5 on a Meacham highwall. It is a very accurate rifle, I just haven't used it in silhouette yet. The other is a 15 lb Shiloh Sharps with a 1:16 twist ( non-gain ) and chambered in .45-2.6 with Dan's PP reamer. I have not yet shot it in a Creedmoor match. I might one day though.

I don't think the RKS barrels are necessarily better than say a good Green Mountain, Badger, or a Shiloh barrel, but they seem to work consistently well.

Jack Odor is a big fan of Ron Smith's barrels, I gave him a .38 cal RKS gain twist barrel this year from a project that I decided not to do. He would be a good person to talk to about those barrels.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Jack Odor is a big fan of Ron Smith's barrels, I gave him a .38 cal RKS gain twist barrel this year from a project that I decided not to do. He would be a good person to talk to about those barrels.
Chris.

Chris - Well :p it was your barrel that got this conversation going a few days ago. Two weeks ago Jack Odor and I were on our way to a pronghorn hunt and stopped by Mike Lewis's house to drop off Jack's rifle project. It was snowing like crazy and Mike was not home - so a few days ago the three of us met for lunch. (trying to keep this short)

Mike is doing a barrel project for me, I'm re-barreling a rifle for my son in 40-60 Maynard by taking off a Ron Smith 45-70 Gain twist and Jack had your Ron Smith gain twist barrel and was going to try it on his rifle project.
According to Mike, over the years, he has been fielding complaints from people having trouble (consistent accuracy) with gain twist in BPCR applications. He made the distinction that gain twist barreled rifles for the 200y schuetzen rifle shooters using smokeless weren't in that group. Mike wasn't saying "Don't do it!" But just throwing that out there.

So I'd thought I would run that by you and/or anyone one with experience shooting Black in a gain barrel.

[Chill Wills]

Flatsguide
I don't know George but I do know Rocky Mountain Airways:p

By the time you were flying for them in the 80's were you in Otters or the 4 engine Dash 7?

About that time I was working at the end of the Stoll port runway ducking whenever you were taking off. I was a fireman 30 years ago in Avon/Beaver Creek.
It was snarky to call the airline Rocky Mountain Scareways. That little airport is long gone.

[flatsguide]

Lol, Rocky Mountain Scareways...got that right. I flew both the twin otter and the Dash 7.
Just ordered 250 rounds of Starline brass and now looking for a good stock blank. I may go with a pre Inletted blank. Anybody here that has tried a Treebone pre inletted stock ?
Thanks Richard

[Chill Wills]

Treebone is good. Give George a call, talk it over, he is good at getting you what you are looking for.

[Gunlaker]

Chills I'm honestly couldn't say whether the gain twist is useful at all. That Meacham highwall shoots pretty well, but so do all of the rifles that I haven't sold off :-). I know that some of the old timers didn't think much of it. In Perry's book he dedicates a single sentence to gain twist barrels. He says to avoid them interestingly, but doesn't say why.


Chris.

[flatsguide]

Comments on gain twist. I don’t know how to make an active link.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/08/boyer-succeeds-with-bartlein-gain-twist-barrel/

[Chill Wills]

Comments on gain twist. I don’t know how to make an active link.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/08/boyer-succeeds-with-bartlein-gain-twist-barrel/

Here is part of the first paragraph
Quote;At the recent IBS 100/200 Yard Nationals, Benchrest legend Tony Boyer shot a spectacular 0.1697 Grand Agg in the Heavy Varmint class (0.1552 at 100, and 0.1843 at 200). This is the combined, distance-adjusted average group size for five targets at 100 yards and five targets at 200 yards. Interestingly, Tony was shooting a very unusual new gain-twist barrel from Bartlein Barrels of Wisconsin. A “gain-twist” barrel has rifling with a variable twist rate, that starts with a slower twist and transitions into a faster twist. The barrel used by Boyer had a very slight gain twist: 1:15″ twist at the breech end, increasing to 1:14.25″ at the muzzle

Greg- I think (I sure don't know) that trying to compare smokeless with our BPCR looses something in translation. The one sited above is just about NOT.....gain twisted;) "a very slight gain twist: 1:15″ twist at the breech end, increasing to 1:14.25″ at the muzzle".

My old shooting partner Woody shoots a gain twist 40-65. Not because he was looking to buy when he was putting the rifle together he fell into the barrelblank and it too is some mild version of the one above. These RKS barrels like the one Chris gave my friend Jack ( Wow! By the way who gives an almost stranger a free barrel????) and the one I took off a trade rifle (Woody again) in 45 cal RKS 31 to 16 twist is about a two to one ratio.
I have zero experience with them either so I'm just spitting in the wind too. I guess I need to install the one I have on something and learn. The history of mine is the first owner, a national match champion could not make it shoot and he traded it to Woody and Woody was not impressed so much that he wanted to keep it so it went with the rifle action and stock to me. So far it is a two time looser.

Now to be fair, RKS barrels have a seller reputation. He make a lot of normally twisted barrels that get on rifles that win matches.

Okay - enough for now. Somebody else's turn. (I did not even proof rear this - time for dinner.)

[Lead pot]

I would like to look at a undamaged PP bullet recovered from a snow bank to see what the land cuts look like.
Kurt

[flatsguide]

I would like to look at a undamaged PP bullet recovered from a snow bank to see what the land cuts look like.
Kurt
That would be interesting to see. Bullet rifling I’ve seen from my pp bullets looks good, but maybe a gentler start of the bullets spin may be slightly more beneficial. Pope really liked gain twist but he was very meticulous guaranteeing just over MOA at two hundred yards.

[flatsguide]

Just received my MVA 1885 action. I must say that I’m very surprised at the quality and finish. The action is very smooth and locks up tight. There are machine and grinding marks left from various manufacturing operations but they are not deep at all. MVA states that there is .005” left for finishing and this is true. There is a little bit of file work to do and the rest can be stoned and finished with 400 to 600 emery cloth. If MVA had to do this the cost would be most likely 50% higher. The set trigger is very good and crisp both as a single unset trigger and when set. Most likely I will use it set on the chickens and unset on the rest of the critters. I’m waiting on the .40 caliber barrel from Ron Smith. When I get the barrel I can determine the bore size and figure out the chamber size and get a PP reamer ground from Manson.
I’m looking for some nice wood to stock her with. Something like this.
230368

230365
230366
230367

To be continued...
Regards, Richard

[Chill Wills]

That MVA action is a first class, a well made piece of steel.

That looks like a blank of American Black with fine crotch figure. That is a high end blank.
How long do you think to complete the rifle? Please post pictures as you go.

[dave roelle]

Have a look with Cecil Fredie (sp) for your wood

I believe his web sight is
http://www.gunstockblanks.com
Cecils wood and georges carving get the job done

Dave

[Old-Win]

The 40-65 chamber was discussed a while back on the ASSRA forum and might be worthwhile reading. https://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1495847350/0
Also, a good source of both American and Turkish walnut is Watts Walnuts.
http://www.wattswalnut.com/inventory.php

[Hardcast416taylor]

Not to hijack this thread. A friend is rehabing an old lever Winchester in .40-65 to shooter condition. He is looking for lead boolet load data for the original Lyman #403169 that was the standard for the old loads. Anybody have any data for loads?Robert

[flatsguide]

Thanks for the wood blank links. I’m moving along faster than I anticipated so I need to order the wood this coming week. I hope to have the gun finished I about three months. I tore the action apart and started filing and getting the action ready for case hardening...I sti”l need to polish the side panels and blend the side radii to the flats.
230484
230485
230486
After I finish the action I need to file the correct profile into the lever. There is a transition area that would be difficult to do by machine but a few good strokes with a file will dress it up. I’ll post pics of that when I start on the lever. I will get it to a 600 or 800 finish for case hardening... Later R