Moderate loads for .357 magnum?

[harbor2]

I am trying to find a moderate load for my Smith & Wesson M66 4 inch using the .357 case. I have 158 gr. SWC 20-1 sized .358 with a brinnel of 8 to 9. Powders available are Unique, Win 231 and Universal Clays. Of course my goal would be to get at least .38+p velocities maybe 900 to 1000 fps and not lead the cylinder and barrel. The Hodgon manual quotes 5 grains Unique as max for the 158 lead bullet. Web searches show 6 to 7 grs. and hard cast. Is it possible to get the velocity I want with these softer slugs?
harbor2

[Wheelguns 1961]

I use 6.5gn of unique with a 158gn swc cast of 50/50 wheelweights to pure. I haven’t chronoed it, but it shoots accurately. I believe that it is in the 1000-1,100 range. I have also used 5.0gn of ww231 under the same bullet with excellent results. Edited to add: bullets are powder coated.

[JSH]

Look at max book loads for the 38 special or +P, then look at what a start load is with same powder and bullet for 357.

As to speed and leading, your gun,alloy and lube will be the judge of that.

[marek313]

Thats pretty soft for 357 magnum but if you powder coat those they should work. I would use Unique for mid loads but I'm at work so I cant recommend anything specific.

[Thumbcocker]

4.5 of red dot worked well for me as a plinking load.

[harbor2]

Thank you all for your replies. As soft as these slugs are I will start with 4.5 grs Unique and go from there. I have never tried powder coated bullets.

[Petrol & Powder]

harbor2, I think 4.5 grains of Unique may be a bit too low in a .357 mag casing but there's no harm in trying. I doubt that load will even get you to 900 fps. Since you have 231 available, I would suggest something around 5.0 - 5.3 grains of 231.
I wouldn't worry too much about the alloy being soft. With a proper fitting bullet and a good bullet lube you should have no trouble with leading even at 8 - 9 BHn as long as you don't try to push that too fast.

Make sure your casings aren't swaging those soft bullets down even smaller than .358" And you may want to measure your throats; most S&W cylinders I've run across are closer to .357"

A Lyman "M" die of the appropriate size may also be useful.

Good Luck

[Petrol & Powder]

And just FYI:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

[harbor2]

harbor2, I think 4.5 grains of Unique may be a bit too low in a .357 mag casing but there's no harm in trying. I doubt that load will even get you to 900 fps. Since you have 231 available, I would suggest something around 5.0 - 5.3 grains of 231.
I wouldn't worry too much about the alloy being soft. With a proper fitting bullet and a good bullet lube you should have no trouble with leading even at 8 - 9 BHn as long as you don't try to push that too fast.

Make sure your casings aren't swaging those soft bullets down even smaller than .358" And you may want to measure your throats; most S&W cylinders I've run across are closer to .357"

A Lyman "M" die of the appropriate size may also be useful.

Good Luck
Thanks for the reply Petrol & Powder, I will try Win 231, it definitely meters better than Unique. I need to read up on the Lyman M die particulars. I have Lee dies with the extra factory crimp die. Now that you mentioned to watch the case size in reference to the soft bullets, maybe the fcd die might not be usable. Will have to see, thanks again.

[robg]

7 gr true blue works well ,meters well and clean

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not a fan of the Lee FCD but that's a personal opinion. It's also not the relevant issue here.
It's easy for a an improperly sized casing to swage a soft bullet down to a smaller diameter. A lot of expanders that work fine for jacketed bullets are not as well suited for cast lead bullets, particularly if the bullets are soft.

When the casing is expanded the brass will spring back a little after the expander is removed. Ideally you want the casing to provide a little bit of neck tension without so much that it swages the bullet. For a .357" -.358" lead bullet, a .357" expander works fairly well. The casing will spring back to about .356" and that diameter coupled with a roll crimp in the crimp groove will prove good results.
Add that neat little Lyman "M" die "step" that really helps to start the bullet squarely in the casing and the whole system works nicely with cast bullets that have a crimp groove.

[Petrol & Powder]

I just measured the expander plug on my Lyman "M" die for 38/357 and it's .356" with a step of about .360"

The plug is removable and you can get different sizes.

I had Lathesmith make a couple of Dillon powder funnels (Insert BIG endorsement for Lathesmith here) and they are .357" with a .360 step.

[rintinglen]

6.0 grains of WW-231, 6.5 Grains of Unique, 7.0 grains of Power Pistol: any of these will make for a nice medium .357 158 grain load in the 1000-1100 FPS range.

[eddietruett]

I shoot a lot of coated 158gr TCFP and SWC with 5.0gr of Universal. I did chronograph some but can't find my book, but I think it was giving me around 950 out of a 8 3/8" Model 686. I shoot a lot of steel plates and 75 yards which is the limit to my home range. Very Pleasant to shoot and extremely accurate. Was using Unique but the Universal meters better in my Dillon press and seems to shoot a little cleaner. I have used a very similar load of Power Pistol listed by rintinglen above with very good results as well. I shoot most of mine in 38 special cases and use in .38 and .357 Revolvers. More of a +P .38 load

[harbor2]

I really appreciate all the replies for finding moderate loads for my .357. Now I just have to get out and do some loading and range work. I have a Lee hand press and dies coming in the mail, should be here soon. In the mean time, my grandson and I are taking this week to go reindeer hunting on Atka Island, Alaska. Wish us luck.

[Walks]

Good Luck on your Hunt.
LYMAN M-dies are the best dies for expanding a case for a cast bullet. The 2-step expander has been sold by LYMAN for over 60+yrs.
I don't care much for LEE dies either. I discovered their Factory Crimp die was actually squeezing the bullet Diameter of bullets seated & then Crimped with a FCD from .428dia down to .426dia in my .44-40. And .401dia bullets in a .38-40 down to .398dia, I don't use them anymore.
Good roll crimp is the best way to hold a bullet for good powder ignition.

I don't know what manual you are using but it's been a WHOLE LOTTA YEARS since HODGDON published a manual showing Alliant/Hercules powders like UNIQUE.

Are you sure you're reading the right line?
I would you suggest you use data from only the HODGDON (Winchester, IMR, HODGDON powders) or the ALLIANT website.
Perhaps buy a copy of the LYMAN CAST BULLET HANDBOOK #4 or one of the caliber specific Loadbooks covering .38spl/.357mag.

[rfd]

i load 4.7 to 5.0 grains of w231 under an acme or precision hi-tec coated 125 grain bullet for my S&W model 60 snubbie. easy going on recoil, pretty accurate, too. now i need to figure out what to load for a companion .357mag rifle ...

[HBAR2989]

I stumbled on 10gr of blue dot 25-30 years ago. For a mid range load it has been the most accurate load I have used.

[Ed_Shot]

Red Dot / Promo 5.0 gr. under a 120~160 gr boolit in a .357 case is my standard mid-range load. Economical, and the accuracy is hard to beat.

[sniper]

For years, I shot IPSC with my 4" Smith & Wesson 586 ...5.5 gr Unique, 357 brass, standard primers, RCBS 150 gr. SWC boolit, home cast with what I hoped was somewhere in the neighborhood of Lyman #2 alloy, from my Coleman camp stove, which is supposed to be ~ BHN 15. Lubed with some red stuff Lee packaged with its pan lubing outfit. 860 fps, chronoed, no leading to speak of, easy to shoot. 9.5 gr. Blue Dot under 158 cast boolits was also nice to shoot and accurate. Since the prohibition against 125 gr. boolits/Blue Dot, my use of has gone by the wayside, but I still see current loading manuals showing use with 125 gr. projectiles. (?) Good luck with your search. Some very good suggestions have been offered. 8-)

[Larry Gibson]

6 gr of Unique will pretty much duplicate 38 SPL+P with that bullet. I most often use 6.5 gr though. You might try both loads. You don't say what lube(?) so I suggest a good softer NRA 50/50 lube or BAC. LLA also works if 2 light coats are used allowing each coat to completely dry.

[derek45]

I am trying to find a moderate load for my Smith & Wesson M66 4 inch using the .357 case. I have 158 gr. SWC 20-1 sized .358 with a brinnel of 8 to 9. Powders available are Unique, Win 231 and Universal Clays. Of course my goal would be to get at least .38+p velocities maybe 900 to 1000 fps and not lead the cylinder and barrel. The Hodgon manual quotes 5 grains Unique as max for the 158 lead bullet. Web searches show 6 to 7 grs. and hard cast. Is it possible to get the velocity I want with these softer slugs?
harbor2

231, unique, and universal are all good choices

6" 586

158gr swc 7.0 unique 1237fps

6.1 win231 1117fps

6.4 w231 1151fps

[uscra112]

I stumbled on 10gr of blue dot 25-30 years ago. For a mid range load it has been the most accurate load I have used.

Same here, using a 160 gr. SWC cast of 50-50 Pb/wheelweights with 1% tin added. 9 grains is mild, 10 grains moderate, 11 grains is snappy.

Blue Dot doesn't get the respect it deserves, IMHO.

[harbor2]

Appreciate everyone's help and advice. I tried 5 grs of 231. Decent accuracy but leaded the chambers, lead on the chamber end of the cylinder, forcing cone and about 1/2 inch up the barrel. Chronograph from 10 rounds was 848 fps. As I mentioned in my initial post the bullets are .358 with a mix 20x1 Desperado Bullets and a soft lube. Thinking now of trying .357 dia, I do have some old Meister bullets and are hard cast. I did use a expander M die and it's the ticket for straight seating the slugs, thanks Mr Gibson.

[harbor2]

I misspoke about the M die, thanks Petro Powder for your comments and the die does make it easier to get the bullets started straight. Mr Gibson and all who have shared, Thank you for sharing your time and knowledge, I truly appreciate it.

[rfd]

starline brass, 4.2 to 5.0 grains of w231 under a BBI 160 grain hi-tek coated #2 alloy lead bullet in a henry H015 .357mag rifle with 22" bbl - NO pressure signs or leading. bullets seated to within .020" of the rifling.

[sniper]

I just finished reading Patrick Sweeney's book "Reloading for Handgunners"; a good, informative read. His formula for "mild " 357 Maggies was: "Pick a .38 Special load, and add 10%"! I did some comparison, and that will result in a load about .38 +P, pressure and velocity...somewhat less powerful than the starting loads for the 357, depending upon powder. The comparison with 38 +P loads is hotter, but still below most starting load pressures for the 357.

[sniper]

Same here, using a 160 gr. SWC cast of 50-50 Pb/wheelweights with 1% tin added. 9 grains is mild, 10 grains moderate, 11 grains, snappy.
Blue Dot doesn't get the respect it deserves, IMHO.

My sentiments, too! (9.5 gr. Blue Dot under a 150-158 gr. SWC was very pleasant to shoot, but I didn't have a chronograph, so have no idea of the velocity. I shot up the last of a nearly-full bottle I bought from a co-worker for $5, and It sort of fell by the wayside.

[cwlongshot]

I'm not a fan of the Lee FCD but that's a personal opinion. It's also not the relevant issue here.
It's easy for a an improperly sized casing to swage a soft bullet down to a smaller diameter. A lot of expanders that work fine for jacketed bullets are not as well suited for cast lead bullets, particularly if the bullets are soft.

When the casing is expanded the brass will spring back a little after the expander is removed. Ideally you want the casing to provide a little bit of neck tension without so much that it swages the bullet. For a .357" -.358" lead bullet, a .357" expander works fairly well. The casing will spring back to about .356" and that diameter coupled with a roll crimp in the crimp groove will prove good results.
Add that neat little Lyman "M" die "step" that really helps to start the bullet squarely in the casing and the whole system works nicely with cast bullets that have a crimp groove. I agree 100%

CW

[JoeJames]

I just finished reading Patrick Sweeney's book "Reloading for Handgunners"; a good, informative read. His formula for "mild " 357 Maggies was: "Pick a .38 Special load, and add 10%"! I did some comparison, and that will result in a load about .38 +P, pressure and velocity...somewhat less powerful than the starting loads for the 357, depending upon powder. The comparison with 38 +P loads is hotter, but still below most starting load pressures for the 357.I agree with adding 10%. My good 38 Special with 4.1 grains of Win 231 and 158 grain SWC's average about 850 fps. I would start with 4.5 grains of 231 and see how that does. Backing off a tad from your 5 grains would be a fair test.

[sniper]

Duplicate

[JoeJames]

DuplicateI am kind of puzzled here. I looked back through the other postings and did not find one specific reference to just plain old using 4.5 grains of Win231. I posted my advice since he indicated he had leading when using 5 grains of Win231. If I was in error posting this, I most heartily apologize.

[harbor2]

Thanks Joe James and everyone for the advice. I recently tried 158 gr. Rn and swc coated .358 dia. from Missouri Bullets. No leading but had to use Flitz to remove the baked on coating on the front of the cylinder and inside the frame. Might as well stick with gg slugs, easier to remove. I slugged and miked the cylinder chambers tonight and they all are a uniform .356 diameter. Slugged the barrel but with the 5 groove I can't get a decent measurement. The barrel slug though was a slip fit in all the chambers which is good. I did order a Lee sizer in .357 dia. and will size the lead .358 bullets and give that a try. By the way the coated bullets were accurate with 2 six shot strings, all touching from a rest at 15 yrs. Problem now if it don't quit snowing I might not get to the range till spring.

[crankycalico]

Try lubing the barrel with Johnson paste wax?

[Orchard6]

I too vote for Blue Dot. I run 10 grains behind a modified Lee 358-158 rnfp dropping a 150 grain hollow point with great accuracy. Another load my Blackhawk likes is the Lee 358-125 rnfp on top of 20 grains of 296 this would be a bit above a medium load but it shoots like a lazer!

[Char-Gar]

I applaud your search for a moderate 357 Mag load. There is no reason to stress these K frames Smith, unless their is a real need to do so.

I favor a 150 grain full wadcutter over either 5/Bullseye, 10/2400 or 7.5/AA5. This will all produce between 1,050 and 1,150 in your Model 66. You can of course use any nominal weight cast bullet you want. I am certain you can find an equivilent Unique load. I am thinking around 6.8 grains should do the trick, but I have not tried it, so your blood be on your own head.

[dale2242]

5 gr Red Dot with a 158/160 gr. cast....dale

[Murphy]

If you keep experiencing leading, my first suspect would be the cylinder throats. In your post, you state they measure .356 diameter from your slugging them. Having them opened up to .358 may solve your leading problem.

I was just telling a co-worker a couple of days ago, that one of the things I find enjoyable about reloading is finding the just right load for a specific gun.

Murphy

[Possumbelly220]

My go-to load is 6.1grns of Universal for a cast 158grn bullet. Super accurate in my 4 5/8 Blackhawk!

[Hick]

4 grains of Titegroup under almost anything

[curioushooter]

This is a good thread. I have a S&W 60-18 (5-shot J-Frame 357 with 5" barrel). I want to find a moderate load that is not also just a 38 Special +P load.

The problem is good data is hard to find.

Much of the data out there seems to use the 40,000 PSI SAMMI guideline form pre-'95. Vitavouri seems to use CIP which is something like 43,000 PSI (by another method). Still, above where I want to be. Lyman seems to go by a ~40,000 CUP max, which isl well over 35,000 PSI.

I want to be something like 32-35000 PSI with a slow-to-mid range powder that will actually burn up in 5."

But what everyone seems to offer are either cat-sneeze Bullsye/Unique/Universal/Tightgroup 38 loads or they want to give you basically a starting load with the slow magnum powders, almost all of which are inefficient. 2400/296/AA#9 all need to be pretty close to that 40K mark in order to burn well it seems. I've tried magnum primers. It helps, and AA#9 is the best of this group, but I think they are not very efficient, even with 158-168 grain bullets.

Blue Dot seems promising. But I dislike blue dot with those big flakes. It also doesn't approach case fill. The limited testing I have done clocked ~1100 FPS. Hardly any more than 38+P

Two powders that seem to make sense to me are AA#7, Vit 3n37, and Shooters World Heavy Pistol maybe? At least Alliant and Shootersworld have data with 357 Magnum at the 35,000 MAX. Unfortunately, vitavouri doesn't seem to publish starting load pressures, which could possibly be a good.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I have been shooting the following load in my .357Mag revolvers for decades.
I use 158gr commercial cast LSWC over 9.8 great of Blue Dot.
No chronograph but my reloading manual says approximately 1200-1250fps.
I settled on this load because it is accurate in all six of my .357Mag revolvers.

[pukester]

I understand you want "moderate" loads in your 357. But you have to understand that "moderate" and 357 magnum, originally had nearly opposite meanings....at least for the first 3 or 4 decades of it's existence. I believe for a long time 7 grains of unique under a 158 gr. swc was a fairly common moderate load. But I am pretty sure the "moderate" only applies to velocity.

[robg]

158 gr pb boolit over 7 gr true blue nice accurate light load in 357 case.

[curioushooter]

7 grains of unique under a 158 gr. swc was a fairly common moderate load. This load is over sammi max. 6.8 grains of Unique with a LSWC is Alliants post 95 max load which is no longer listed (it was dropped down to 6). You can find this in the Lee manual. 7 grains of Unique is NOT a moderate load it is a full powered load by any reckoning.

6.5 grains of unique is thrown around as a moderate load. My testing with a 4" model 19 has show it to not achieve even 1000 FPS. It's typically around 950. For comparison 38+P (in 38 brass) can run at 900 FPS with 5.5 grains of unique. Unique is a fast burning powder...only small charge weight changes result in pressure spikes.

I am convinced that a moderate burn rate powder slower than unique and faster than 2400 is needed. Bluedot is what I have tried so far, but getting 1100 FPS, my target velocity, has not occured even with 10 grains which is near a max load and probably running over 30kPSI.

12 grains of 2400 is another option, but I don't like 2400 at backed off pressures. It is dirty and wasteful and not particularly accurate.

I was thinking PowerPistol may be a good option but I cannot find cast/lead bullet data for it.

[tazman]

I was thinking PowerPistol may be a good option but I cannot find cast/lead bullet data for it.

There is data available for PowerPistol using a jacketed 158 grain bullet. Since the burn rate for PowerPistol is only slightly less than Unique, you can compare the load data and back off the appropriate amount from the jacketed loads.
The load data for Unique and PowerPistol are nearly the same for jacketed. Both in charge weight and achieved velocity. Posted difference is .2 grains and less than 30fps(2001 data manual). Not certain you would be any happier with it.
I wish Alliant would show a starting load with their data.

[mr surveyor]

This load is over sammi max. 6.8 grains of Unique with a LSWC is Alliants post 95 max load which is no longer listed (it was dropped down to 6). You can find this in the Lee manual. 7 grains of Unique is NOT a moderate load it is a full powered load by any reckoning.

6.5 grains of unique is thrown around as a moderate load. My testing with a 4" model 19 has show it to not achieve even 1000 FPS. It's typically around 950. For comparison 38+P (in 38 brass) can run at 900 FPS with 5.5 grains of unique. Unique is a fast burning powder...only small charge weight changes result in pressure spikes.

I am convinced that a moderate burn rate powder slower than unique and faster than 2400 is needed. Bluedot is what I have tried so far, but getting 1100 FPS, my target velocity, has not occured even with 10 grains which is near a max load and probably running over 30kPSI.

12 grains of 2400 is another option, but I don't like 2400 at backed off pressures. It is dirty and wasteful and not particularly accurate.

I was thinking PowerPistol may be a good option but I cannot find cast/lead bullet data for it.


Have you considered AA#7?


jd

[Tim357]

The 6.0 Unique LSWC load was started around the the Speer #10 manual. They said it was the load, using their swaged bullet, that provided the max velocity with freedom from leading, or words to that effect. 6.2 Unique with a lswc bullet has always been a decent midrange .357 load.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

4 grains of Titegroup under almost anything

You can even use it for light rifle loads. Good stuff.

[AlaskaMike]

Curiousshooter, 32-35k psi and the term "moderate load" are pretty much mutually exclusive when we're talking about .357 mag.

Are you just looking for a max-saami pressure loads using faster powders?

[Tim357]

Just an observation with a question: have you considered hot .38s? Power pistol with a 158 boolit at a 6-6.5 gr charge will get you around 1000 fps easily

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I just made up some loads for my 3" Model 60. 125 gr. jhp over 7.0 Titegroup. 1150 fps out of my 5" m27and not at all unpleasant to shoot in the m60. Was thinking of batching up some 95/2.5/2.5 alloy to see how well it would work with that charge. Have not chrono'd it out of the m60 yet.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

This is a good thread. I have a S&W 60-18 (5-shot J-Frame 357 with 5"

That would be a nice barrel length to have. How old is it?

[cowboy4evr]

The K-frames are not " weak sisters " . they do have their limitations , "hot loads using 125gr bullets loaded over a max charge of H-110 /W296 " . Several yrs ago I was in a LGS . He had a Ruger Security Six that was the " loosest " hand gun I have ever seen . Ruger builds fine hand guns . My point is any gun can be ruined . I will tell you that my everyday load in my 19's is 7.0 grs of Unique using a 158-173 gr cast bullet . I have shot a boat load of those in my 19's over the years . My manuals are the older ones , which was current when I bought them . My guns are as tight as the day I bought them . Regards Paul

[Martin Luber]

The Lee FCD is decent as a resizer tho...it offers minimal sizing for cast bullets. I made a decapping adapter for mine.

They botched the math on sizing. It may be ok for jacketed but it usually squeezes down a cast bullet resulting in leading and poor accuracy.

[tazman]

The Lee FCD is decent as a resizer tho...it offers minimal sizing for cast bullets. I made a decapping adapter for mine.

They botched the math on sizing. It may be ok for jacketed but it usually squeezes down a cast bullet resulting in leading and poor accuracy.

I have the Lee FCD dies for 5 different handgun calibers and none of them cause those problems for me.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

I have the Lee FCD dies for 5 different handgun calibers and none of them cause those problems for me.

works well for me also