Used muzzleloader and rust in bore

[MAGA]

I purchased a navy arms buffalo hunter made in 1975 and the description listed it as bluing and case colors at 98% and also stated a drop in bore light showed the bore to be bright and shiny throughout. I received it today and it is in great condition but when I looked inside the bore my heart sank. There is some specks of rust visible to the naked eye. I have never purchased a used musket before so I don’t know if this would be considered normal for the age and is nothing to worry about or I should be upset because all of my other guns have zero rust or pitting. I’m not sure how smooth these barrels were to begin with. There is absolutely no rust around nipple or bolster....

The first two pics are from the ad and the rest are ones I just took

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[ShooterAZ]

I think I'd have a chat with the seller regarding it. If it was not as advertised, I don't think i would be happy with it.

[Buzzard II]

If what is showing in photos is pitting, I would get my money back. If it's just surface rust, JB Bore paste should take care of it. Good luck.
Bob

[arcticap]

1. I don't know the terms of the sale, if you have an inspection period or not, if you have any buyer protection, or if it was an "as is" sale.

2. Sure, I'd be disappointed. The bore looks like it could be given a score on a scale of 1-10 of anywhere from a 7.0 to 7.8. - let's say it's a 7.5, hardly a 98% bore,
but I don't know what it was claimed to be besides being bright and shiny throughout. Perhaps the seller has cataracts or is full of himself.
He certainly seems to be puffing except that photos can often play tricks due to camera flash and artifacts and such.

3. Sometimes price is contingent on condition. A lower selling price will sometimes bring out even more puffing in order to get someone to buy the item without any complaints.

4. So what's your solution?

A. Are you so indignant about the condition of the bore that you want the deal canceled and your money returned?

B. You're upset but will accept an accord & satisfaction, a portion of your money back to keep the gun and live with it?

C. You're not sure if you got your money's worth or not because the price was fairly reasonable in the end?

I wish I had more details about where the gun was purchased, through a private ad or on Gunbroker or such.
Maybe 2-3 months ago I spoke with a fellow about a ML rifle that he had for sale that I wouldn't buy due to what some would call a minor detail
even though the price was very low compared to the current market value for a new one.
My question wasn't about anything that was posted in the ad, but about a detail that I had asked about on the phone during a long conversation.
And it came out although it would have never been stated otherwise, only because I had asked the question directly.
He also happened to have a .58 Hurricane for sale and was out of Pittsburgh, asking $350 I think it was. But it wasn't the gun of interest.
Could that be the same seller?

If not, then that should at least let you know that there could be others out there for sale in better (or worse) condition.

[MAGA]

1. I don't know the terms of the sale, if you have an inspection period or not, if you have any buyer protection, or if it was an "as is" sale.

2. Sure, I'd be disappointed. The bore looks like it could be given a score on a scale of 1-10 of anywhere from a 7.0 to 7.8. - let's say it's a 7.5, hardly a 98% bore,
but I don't know what it was claimed to be besides being bright and shiny throughout. Perhaps the seller has cataracts or is full of himself.
He certainly seems to be puffing except that photos can often play tricks due to camera flash and artifacts and such.

3. Sometimes price is contingent on condition. A lower selling price will sometimes bring out even more puffing in order to get someone to buy the item without any complaints.

4. So what's your solution?

A. Are you so indignant about the condition of the bore that you want the deal canceled and your money returned?

B. You're upset but will accept an accord & satisfaction, a portion of your money back to keep the gun and live with it?

C. You're not sure if you got your money's worth or not because the price was fairly reasonable in the end?

I wish I had more details about where the gun was purchased, through a private ad or on Gunbroker or such.
Maybe 2-3 months ago I spoke with a fellow about a ML rifle that he had for sale that I wouldn't buy due to what some would call a minor detail
even though the price was very low compared to the current market value for a new one.
It wasn't about anything that was posted in the ad, but a question that I had asked about it on the phone during a long conversation.
He also happened to have a .58 Hurricane for sale and was out of Pittsburgh, asking $350 I think it was. But it wasn't the gun of interest.
Could that be the same seller?

Here is the original listing description on gunbroker;
Here's a Navy Arms import of an Anton Zoli, Italian made Zouave Carbine. These halfstock carbines were not reproductions of any particular rifle, but are patterned along the lines, of so called “officer’s models”. These were custom made and given out by gun manufacturers to influential persons, to help secure arms contracts. It’s also reminiscent of the sporterized Civil War rifled muskets that were offered to the public after the war, by Bannerman’s etc. Compared to the many Italian reproduction Zouave military muskets sold in the USA, these carbines are very rarely seen, or offered for sale. In early Navy Arms catalogues, this rifle was referred to as both “The Buffalo Hunter” and “Zouave Hunter”. Navy Arms founder, the late Val Forgett, actually took some of these big bore rifles to Africa and used them in taking the ‘big five” of big game trophies. It is well known, the horrible wounds caused to man and beast, due to the 58 cal Minnie Ball, during the Civil War. This short, accurate, light weight carbine rifle would also have the same devastating effect on white tail deer or other large North American game animals. This 58 cal. was designed for conical, hollow based Minie balls. However, as we measured it, the rifled bore’s rate of twist is 1:64, making it also highly suitable for tightly patched round balls. The nipple accepts standard #11 caps. In the patch box is alternate nipple that uses the larger and hotter “top hat” musket caps. The nipple threads out of the bolster effortlessly. Rifle’s overall length is 42”, barrel length 26”, length of pull 14”, drop at the comb 2 ½”, weighs 9 lbs. The half stock rifle has a fancy hand checkered wrist, blued steel under rib, brass ram rod thimbles and entry pipe, nose cap etc. Lock plate and hammer have case colors. Bluing and case colors are close to 98%. The Italian date stamp is AA, which we believe indicates a 1975 production date. A drop in bore light shows the bore to be bright and shiny throughout. Wood and varnish have some minor dings and compression marks.

I gave $355 plus shipping of $30

I emailed the seller politely and attached photos but haven't heard back yet this seller was not from Pennsylvania though...

I would accept a partial refund I think but I don't know how the seller will want to proceed, there was an inspection period listed but must be returned back in sellers hand within 7 days unfired

[arcticap]

I would pack up the gun and get ready to send it back and take the loss on the shipping.
That's mostly because you said that your heart sank.

Navy Arms also made a .58 Hawken.
I think that you could do better for the money, no matter which .58 model that you end up with.

Here's the .58 Hawken, although the rubber butt pad is not original:--->>> http://www.icollector.com/Navy-Arms-Hawken-58-Cal-SN-677_i27409491

Another:--->>> https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-Military-Artifacts/Firearms/Navy-Arms-Co-Ridgefield-NJ-58-Cal-Black-Powder-Rifle-27-8221-Octagon-Barrel/lotInformation/41330568

I don't know if the Buffalo Hunter is the same as the Hurricane model:--->>> https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Navy_Arms__58_Cal_BP__please_Identify___Is_it_a_ki t_or_something_/5-1948696/

The one that I saw advertised a few months ago on the muzzle loading forum had a conventional style trigger guard.
I could put you in touch with the guy if I could determine if the gun is still for sale, or you can ask him yourself.
I have his cell phone and email.
But all of his photos were of the outside of the gun only.
I may also have his MLF name, but would need to check.
He was selling guns from his safe to raise money for his wife's medical bills, and didn't even have a place to shoot.

[charlie b]

I can't tell much from the pics but it looks like some surface stuff. Did you run a patch down it to see what is dirt and what is actually rust?

Given that they used a yellow bore light (don't like them) they would not see any rust blemishes, only if badly pitted or accumulated crud. So, based on that, their description may be valid.

I hope it is just dirt and surface stuff that comes off with a patch. If not then I hope the seller comes through.

[indian joe]

Here is the original listing description on gunbroker;
Here's a Navy Arms import of an Anton Zoli, Italian made Zouave Carbine. These halfstock carbines were not reproductions of any particular rifle, but are patterned along the lines, of so called “officer’s models”. These were custom made and given out by gun manufacturers to influential persons, to help secure arms contracts. It’s also reminiscent of the sporterized Civil War rifled muskets that were offered to the public after the war, by Bannerman’s etc. Compared to the many Italian reproduction Zouave military muskets sold in the USA, these carbines are very rarely seen, or offered for sale. In early Navy Arms catalogues, this rifle was referred to as both “The Buffalo Hunter” and “Zouave Hunter”. Navy Arms founder, the late Val Forgett, actually took some of these big bore rifles to Africa and used them in taking the ‘big five” of big game trophies. It is well known, the horrible wounds caused to man and beast, due to the 58 cal Minnie Ball, during the Civil War. This short, accurate, light weight carbine rifle would also have the same devastating effect on white tail deer or other large North American game animals. This 58 cal. was designed for conical, hollow based Minie balls. However, as we measured it, the rifled bore’s rate of twist is 1:64, making it also highly suitable for tightly patched round balls. The nipple accepts standard #11 caps. In the patch box is alternate nipple that uses the larger and hotter “top hat” musket caps. The nipple threads out of the bolster effortlessly. Rifle’s overall length is 42”, barrel length 26”, length of pull 14”, drop at the comb 2 ½”, weighs 9 lbs. The half stock rifle has a fancy hand checkered wrist, blued steel under rib, brass ram rod thimbles and entry pipe, nose cap etc. Lock plate and hammer have case colors. Bluing and case colors are close to 98%. The Italian date stamp is AA, which we believe indicates a 1975 production date. A drop in bore light shows the bore to be bright and shiny throughout. Wood and varnish have some minor dings and compression marks.

I gave $355 plus shipping of $30

I emailed the seller politely and attached photos but haven't heard back yet this seller was not from Pennsylvania though...

I would accept a partial refund I think but I don't know how the seller will want to proceed, there was an inspection period listed but must be returned back in sellers hand within 7 days unfired

Problem is you need to move quick

You expect a pristine bore in a 1975 blackpowder gun and pay 1/3 or less of current new price - that would be nice - unlikley maybe ?

Would you be happy if it cleaned up and shot ok???

Either send it back right away OR contact the seller right away and renegotiate - if its a decent shooter you dont have a problem and the price is fair?

If I was the seller at this price and you wanted a partial refund I would feel like you were trying to screw me after the event and my answer would be sent it back in the same condition it left home for a full refund ----if you asked for time (say two weeks) to shoot it (just what I would do) I would agree to an extension of the return time to test fire it - but take it at the price or return for refund would be the deal.

[pietro]

.

Well, regardless, it's a USED black powder rifle - have you cleaned/shot it yet?

It may very well clean up to be a good shooter - or was it bought with an eye to displaying an "as new" wall hanger ?

In any event, please keep us posted on any further developments.

.

[mooman76]

MLs are a more forgiving that center fire guns. If it were me I would try to get refunded some of the money. It doesn't look that bad to me. No body wants that but it should still shoot good.

[Ragnarok]

Oh my!...That bore looks great compared to the Euroarms M1861 I bought a month or so back. I would say it's fine...good to go. The bore on mine looked like pure red rust...no rifling visible at the muzzle and as far down the bore as you could see. I got the rifle/musket cheap and used WD-40 Rust Soak in the bore....rust scrubbed right out leaving a shiny but pitted bore. That bore I would just clean and shoot.

My M1861 cleaned-up ok...some very noticeable pitting in the last six or seven inches of bore that doesn't seem to have any negative effect on accuracy.

[waksupi]

I'd shoot it before returning it. I've had some original guns with real sewer pipes for barrels that shot very well.

[Mac118]

I too have seen scarier bores that shot well. But I've also seen return criteria based on visual inspection only - not shooting. So until you speak to the seller you don't have much to go on. I get much less hung up on bore condition with my muzzleloaders because they often surprise me when they don't look so good but shoot great.

[Tasbay]

The rifling still looks to be well defined. I`d run some Scotch bright or fine emery paper down it . Give it a good clean then shoot it. I`d be surprised if that barrel didn`t shoot. Hell its a 45 year old gun its going to have some faults.

[arcticap]

The thread below provides a documented article that indicates that the primary weapon that Val Forgett used to kill an elephant, hippo and buffalo
in Africa was the Navy Arms .58 Hawken Hunter.

Although he did take 2 guns with him, the other being the Buffalo Hunter .58 carbine with which he had handy when he needed to kill a lion,
it was the Hawken Hunter that was primarily made up of a US made barrel and Pedersoli lock parts, that was the gun that was able to be loaded
with over 600 grain bullets and 200 grain powder charges.

The Buffalo Hunter by comparison, was loaded with a 125 grain powder charge and a minie bullet, with which he killed a lion at 40 yards.

It was the Hawken Hunter .58 that was the primary gun for which Val Forgett became most famous for building and taking on the African safari.

It was the Hawken Hunter .58 that I saw for sale on the MLF website by the fellow from Pittsburgh.
And I believe that's the gun that's often referred to as the "Hurricane"
I didn't realize that Forgett took 2 guns with him on the famous African safari.
The Navy Arms article is a short and interesting read especially when taken in context with the entire thread.

Here's the thread with the Navy Arms article at the end:--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/navy-arms-58-cal-hawken-hunter.204231/

[Good Cheer]

When buying a muzzleloader on the interseine I've received worse after being assured of how wonderful the piece was.
All I can say is I paid my money and took my chances.

[labradigger1]

Does the seller on GB have a phone number listed? I sell items on gb occasionally and when someone buys the product I can see their phone number.

[725]

i'd hand lap it with some flitz and a tight patch. couple hundred passes and it should look like new. the photos don't seem to show hard corrosion, so a little elbow grease might just do the trick. good luck.

[MAGA]

I emailed seller with pics and he said if i wanted a return that was fine. I asked about shipping costs because if I was to return I would be out over $70 in shipping alone since the issues weren’t mentioned in ad... I said I might consider keeping it if we could come to an agreement and both be happy with price and received no response since yesterday. So today I just emailed back I will just try to clean it up and that I would keep it.

I ordered some kroil and some bronze brushes and have some 0000 steel wool would that hurt anything to swab the bore with?
I don’t want to hurt the rifling or anything.....

[indian joe]

I emailed seller with pics and he said if i wanted a return that was fine. I asked about shipping costs because if I was to return I would be out over $70 in shipping alone since the issues weren’t mentioned in ad... I said I might consider keeping it if we could come to an agreement and both be happy with price and received no response since yesterday. So today I just emailed back I will just try to clean it up and that I would keep it.

I ordered some kroil and some bronze brushes and have some 0000 steel wool would that hurt anything to swab the bore with?
I don’t want to hurt the rifling or anything.....

old brass brush - wrap it tight (real tight) with fine steel wool - go at it - I would use some jewellers rouge to finish with as well (have re surrected several worse than yours looks) - I would test shoot with patched ball first (I have a 58 Zoli that shoots ball good - have not got it shooting minies anygood yet - maybe will but the ball is easier in this slow twist)

[country gent]

Before getting to drastic start out with some flannel patches and shooter choice, maybe even the coarser pillow ticking used for round ball patches. wet them down good and work them a few strokes. See what shows. JB bore cleaner may work wonders also but is a lot of scrubbing. Steel wool, scratch pads of more aggressive abrasives may round male corners of the rifling.

I would simply give it a good solvent cleaning to start and shoot it see what the firearm tells you.

[charlie b]

Yep, clean it normally first. Then go shoot it. If it performs the way you want leave it alone.

I would only resort to the steel wool or other such measures if it is actually pitted and does not shoot the way you want.

[725]

be careful if using a bronze brush. they go in easy enough, but pulling it out again can be troublesome. the bristles are "bent" going in and then have to "get bent' in the other direction to come out. really tough sometimes. rotating the cleaning rod clockwise can occasionally swoop the bristles around to allow extraction.

[uscra112]

Use copper Chore Boy scouring pads from the grocery store. Won't harm the rifling at all. Just make sure they're all copper. Some are copper plated steel. Cut 'em down with kitchen scissors to get pieces that will fit down the bore. SOP around here for clearing leaded barrels.

[indian joe]

be careful if using a bronze brush. they go in easy enough, but pulling it out again can be troublesome. the bristles are "bent" going in and then have to "get bent' in the other direction to come out. really tough sometimes. rotating the cleaning rod clockwise can occasionally swoop the bristles around to allow extraction.

Correct !
I was saying use a worn bronze brush - thats to hold the steel wool - just wrap thin slivers of steel wool around the worn until it is a tight squeeze fit in the bore - add more as it beds in.
His major problem is deciding whether to send it back or not - if its decided to keep it then just work along and see whats needed to get this thing shooting - a decent clean might be all thats needed. If its going back for a refund then that needs to happen pronto .

[modified5]

I would clean and shoot it. I bought an older TC inline once for $114 delivered! It was from a pawn shop on GB and they stated that the condition of the bore was dirty and unknown. When seating a bullet it actually got looser for a couple of inches mid barrel. I shot it and it shot 1 1/2-2 inches for 5 shots at 100. That bore wouldn’t worry me at all.