Another conversion cylinder loading question.

[gavlan]

Hi guy's i'm looking to load for the 45 colt in a reproduction Rem 1858 with a Kirst converter ( 45 colt).
My question is if I want to stay within the safe zone here how do I know how deep to seat the boolit if there is no data for that particular design?.
Say I want to load the Ideal 454374 which is the RN 230 gn boolit to within safe specs and this boolit isn't in any load book for the said 45 colt , how do I know how deep to seat that sucker so I don't up the pressure and make it a tad hooter than i'm going to be comfortable with ?,
I ask cos I have a gazillion of these cast up already for use elsewhere , also have the H&G 68 from NOE
.

Or can I seat it just below max overall lenghth ,say 1.590" max being 1.60"?,

OH! also in the lyman manuals it says I can load the 200 gn 452460 swc but it's fps is in the 900"s whereas the recommended safe load ( fot the kirst conversion cylinders ) say's 850 fps,, agghhhh!!!! i'm so confused ,,, Darn conversions,,, can't wait to get shooting,,

[curator]

Some loading books don't give the Cartridge overall length along with powder charge and bullet design/weight. Lucky that you know how important that information is before you make up a bunch of loads. You will probably be OK with "close to" maximum overall length, but you did not specify what powder and charge weight you are using. Buy the Lee Handloading book. It is one of the best in that it gives correct bullet seating information along with starting and maximum loads. You will find others do as well. The Lyman books are confusing and inaccurate in my opinion. Another option is getting a chronograph and check the velocity of your loads. Start on the light side and gradually work up to your intended target. I get (about) 730-750 fps using the Lee 451/230 RN bullet seated to 1.60" with 6.5 grains of Unique in .45 Colt brass from my Kirst converted 1848 Army revolver (Dragoon) and pressures low enough that the cases don't effectively seal the chambers unless the (Starline) brass has been recently annealed.

[gavlan]

Thanks for the reply Curator, I have most of the older Ideal /Lyman books and the newer cast boolit books also some Sierra and Hornady's.
I gave my BIL my Lee book when he started to reload maybe I should have kept it ,,,Ha !!!!.

You are quite right about the Lyman books , there is differences betwix editions.

I am spoiled for choice I quess when it comes to powder choice because I have most of the " popular " ones , RD , Unique , BE , 700x, W231, TB, ect.

I am thinking of starting with reddot but then I changed my mind and went with TrailBoss but now i'm leaning towards 700x.

I figured if I stay under max lenghth it shouldn't be much of a problem with around 5.5 gns of RD with the 230 boolit.

On a side note Lymans cast book list the start load for the 200gn 452460 " speeding " along at 900+ fps and that's a start but I want around 850fps, this is confusing the heck outa me and I have been casting and loading for a long time.

Maybe i'm over thinking this , if this gun was a Ruger or Thompson or something stronger than my Rem NMA 1858 with a conversion cylinder I wouldn't have any problems but this whole strength deal with these handguns has me very cautious .:groner:
I notice you said you have a conversion for a Dragoon ,,,, nice,,, wonder if they make one for a Cimmeron Whitneyville Dragoon , I have one of those..

[curator]

gavian:

My opinion on loading for the conversion cylinders is to stick with both black powder pressures and using something similar to the black powder pressure curve. IMHO red dot, trail boss, 700x, and Bullseye are all a bit too fast burning with a sharp pressure spike. Contrary to what is commonly believed, black powder in a compressed load is slower burning than any of the aforementioned powders. Even in a 5-shot .45 Colt conversion cylinder is pretty thin walled particularly under the cylinder bolt mortice. The Cowboy Action shooters get away with their conversion loads with fast powders like Trail Boss because they load VERY light (like 500 fps) with light bullets for minimum recoil and fast shooting at big targets close up. Unique, and Universal are two powders that have similar pressure curves to real black powder in light loads (under 12000 psi)

[gavlan]

Sorry for the delay with getting back here .
I have some Unique but only a tad left in my jug so i'll have to grab some more sometime in the near future,
I need to get " stocked up" again anyhow.
Thanks for the very useful info Curator it is much appreciated , another member ( you know who you are ,,ha,,) recommended Clays also so if I can get lucky enough to get both powders at my local GS this coming weekend i'll snag a couple of jugs .
Not 20 minutes ago I had a delivery of some Starline 45 Schofield brass so I have the best of both worlds for my 1858 NMA.
Thanks again.

[415m3]

Have you tried a load yet? I have a Taylor's cylinder for my 1858 and am about to try Unique or maybe make the drive to find some Goex

[John E.B. Rawton]

Hello,
I had been loading Trailboss for about 7 years with absolutely no issues. Recently I switched to black powder and loaded full cases with a 200gr .454 rnfp. 35gr of ffg. It is a nice stout load in the kirsts I have in my uberti walkers.
p.s. The trailboss loads were not on the light side but slightly under max load. I actually forgot the exact charge I use. LoL.

[gavlan]

Have you tried a load yet? I have a Taylor's cylinder for my 1858 and am about to try Unique or maybe make the drive to find some Goex

no not yet , I have finished " hogging "out the recoil shield so I can use the Kirst loading gate and after treating it with the OXPHO-BLU I gotta say the color match is awesome.
I'm in the process of trimming my 100 Schofield cases to make them all somewhat alike in length.
I have laded up a few with 231 starting at 5.5 gn and stopping at 5.9,,,,,,,,,, the boolits are Ideal 452460 200gn swc .
I have seated these down to the very top of the last drive band and putting a heavy crimp over the top of that band and it mics out to 1.340", just like the book said to have them at.
Will get to the range next week and play a bit to see the results,,, not to optimistic but hey ya gotta start somewhere,,,,,,,,,,, right ????.

[gavlan]

I'm in the process of trimming my 100 Schofield cses


THATS the first issue I have with what you are doing, using a 45 colt powder charge in a schofield case is GOING TO CAUSE TRAUBLE. Pressure will be higher then the schofield was meant for.

Essiantially its the "should I load 158 grain bullets in 38 special cases using .357 magnum powder charge?"

Anything in a 45 schofield case will be fine pressure wise. Anything in a 45 colt case will be fine. IF YOU USE CORRECT POWDER CHARGES.

Kirst likes to use confusing advertising on what is "safe" for his products. He may refer to what is called a "nominal" velocity range, but VELOCITY has NOTHING to do with chamber pressure. Spend a few days looking at the handgun reloading section in your favorite manual, and youll quickly see how identical chamber pressures can have drastic differences in velocity.

Oh maybe I didn't make it clear sorry , i'm not using Colt charges in he 45 S&W I have separate Schofield data to use.
I have spent years reading my books and I have a ton of them and you are right about the pressure and velocity situation, I get it.
maybe I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say.

[gavlan]

no not yet , I have finished " hogging "out the recoil shield so I can use the Kirst loading gate and after treating it with the OXPHO-BLU I gotta say the color match is awesome.
I'm in the process of trimming my 100 Schofield cases to make them all somewhat alike in length.
I have laded up a few with 231 starting at 5.5 gn and stopping at 5.9,,,,,,,,,, the boolits are Ideal 452460 200gn swc .
I have seated these down to the very top of the last drive band and putting a heavy crimp over the top of that band and it mics out to 1.340", just like the book said to have them at.
Will get to the range next week and play a bit to see the results,,, not to optimistic but hey ya gotta start somewhere,,,,,,,,,,, right ????.

Minuteshaver, I didn't mention loading colt data in my Schofield cases, next time I need to be clearer when I say something ,, i'm confusing folks.

Thanks I appreciate your input.

[Boston Bill]

I just had Kirst install one ( with the loading gate ) in my Cimarron Whitneyville Dragoon last month! The nice ladies in the Kirst office told me the Whitneyville conversion is the same as the Dragoons. Haven't shot it yet. Am thinking I am going to dedicate the 45 Long Colt cylinder to it.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello gavlan,

My intended 45 Colt load for conversion revolver is 20 grs of Black MZ under a LEE .452-200-RF bullet, with a piece of biodegradable packaging peanut as a filler (some say filler is not necessary).
No lube, the Black MZ takes care of that.
My first batch of 44 Colt Original (with .451 Heeled Bullet) was 1.9 cc Black MZ (approximately 27.9 grs), under a LEE 450-200-1R Bullet with a swaged heel.
They shoot great with lots of smoke & easy to clean.

AntiqueSledMan.

[mazo kid]

Now that we have established that you are looking for smokeless loads....I use 4.8 grains of American Select and the boolit loaded to the OAL. I don't remember what the pressure is but the fps is well under what you are looking for and is very clean burning. I also use 5.8 grains of Trail Boss and and a load of W231 that I don't remember off the top of my head. I really prefer using black powder though, just for the boom and smoke!