Stooopid Booolit question(s)

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

New to this forum and hankering to try CB's inmy semi-autos and later bolt guns when I aquire some more mil-surps.

My main question relates to recoil with cast lead bullet loads, I am intersted in .308 and .30-06 for my Garands, FAL and M14 clone primarily, I want loads that will properly cycle the actions and provide decent accuracy.

What I am wondering is this, will recoil be significantly reduced using CB loads that will cycle a semi-auto? I'm not a wimp and have shot hard kicking rifles for almost 40 years however, I just had my 5th back surgery and things arent very stable, I dont think right now that even my target barreled AR15 would treat me right not to speak of what full house ball in the M14 would do to me!

So, in order to shoot more, with less abuse to my body AND to add a new dimension to my hobby, I am looking at casting in a fairly serious light.

So, what can I expext? Perhaps some of you more mathmatically inclined individuals can even express the difference in recoil energy, etc. so I can quantify the net results between full up jacketed bullet loads and cast bullet loads.

Also, I do have the following pwders on hand to try; IMR 4895, IMR 4227, IMR SR7624(? I may have that worng, will check later), WC846/BLC-2, AA2230C and Aliant Power Pistol. What can I do with these choices for .308, .30-06, 8mm mauser, and .45acp?

Thanks in advance, great board here guys:smile:

Jeff

[45nut]

this thread may help!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17615

[Three44s]

Hello Jeff,

Looks like 45 Nut gave you a grand start for autoloaders and boolits.

My experience in this area is a FAT ZERO .... but I had better get off my DUFF and try this in my Garrand .... sure looks like FUN!!

Mark

[missionary5155]

Welcome JKH ! I am in Peru right now and do not have that load Record book with me.. But the above mentiomed link will get you up and shooting. Then down the THREAD LIST in Military Rifles scrole through... Lots of GOOD STUFF !

[JKH]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the info! Still looking for empirical or anecdotal information about recoil.

I found a bunch of old cast bullets that I was given many years ago, there are 143 - 170 grain round nose HP GC bullets that are lubed with what appears to be a graphite based material, these measure .311, should I load these up and give them a try? Which rifle first, FAL, M14S or Garand? I am leaning towards the M14S or FAL as they both have chrome lined bores which I am assuming (I know, its not a prudent thing to do some times!) would have less of a tendency to lead or at least be easier to clean.

I also found some flat point 179 grain bullets with gas checks measuring .309 and lubed with a mostly clear and somewhat sticky/slipper lube, what would these be good for? Shouldnt they be larger in diameter for a .308 bore?

And last, I have some plain based spitzers lubed like the ones above that weigh 167 grains and measure .321 at the bottom driving band and the rest of the bands measure .318, would these be good for the commission sporter with .318 bore and using a light load of IMR4227? How many grains of powder?

I am getting more exited about trying cast bullets, I picked up a large cast iron skillet to start processing wheel weights and have my eyes on a double hot plate that has flat cast iron elements, it puts out 1850 watts, next I will try to find a small dutch oven that will hold about 10 pounds or so of lead and a ladel to cast with, and MOLDS! I am going to limit myself to LEE tumble lube bullets for .45acp, .308 and 8mm and later will go further as time and money allows, great place here and thanks for the warm welcome!

Jeff

[Ricochet]

8 1/2 years ago, when I nearly tore my right arm off, shattered the ball end of the humerus and got a prosthesis put in, for a while I was afraid to shoot my magnum rifles and such off of the bench. Bought something from Midway or one of the shooting supply dealers that was just a big rectangular sandbag. Weighs about as much as a cinder block when full of sand. I set up the rifle on the rest and rear bag as usual, propped this thing firmly against the buttplate, aimed and fired. No recoil to me. Still took a bit of realignment for each shot.

[JKH]

I have thought about a lead sled or similar but thats no good for off hand. unfortunatly by back is so unstable that even a hard sneeze will make my left leg collapse at times, hoefully in a few months since this last surgery it will stabilize more but the prognosis isnt to rosy right now.

Jeff

[mike in co]

recoil is about bullet weight(mass), velocity, and weight(mass) of the rifle.( gas system affect it also),

so generally going with the same weight boolit as the std mil load, shot slower will give less recoil. if you go up in wieght, it may not help, but if you go down and go slow...things could be nice.

i know guys that have shot short range matches with garands and m-14's with 125 and 135 gr bullets.


mike in co

[felix]

Mike, velocity has noting to do with it. Remember, it's Acceleration, via F=MA. You got the Mass correct. ... felix

[smokemjoe]

Theres never a stuiped question when it comes to gun talk.Just like its a never stuiped question in a machince shop. Ask all you wish, we enjoy reading the answers, Smokemjoe

[missionary5155]

The BIG difference between Cast and Jackets is the friction coeficient... BUT when I shoot a 180 grain cast in my M1A or Garand or Krag and then a 180 jacket with the same powder load I might be hard pressed to guess which was which if I did not know which order they were loaded. If all your trying to do is limit recoil... shoot a .22. I weight 155 pounds stand a whole 5-9... and for fun shoot .685 round ball out my 12 gauge Mossberg at 1300fps. Just get used to it... it wont hurt ya to be sore once in a while.

[JKH]

missionary,

Not to seem crass but you need to read my posts more carefully, I have been through 5 lumbar back surgerys and have an extremely unstable spine, right now just being able to continue working in my office is an extreme challeng which is only accomplished via round the clock percocet. I love to shoot and have shot hard kicking rifles since I was 7, .22's since I was 3 and .45's since I was 7 so am no stranger to recoil. I am hoping that some reduce lead loads will allow me to continue shooting my semi-autos and not end up in the hospital from doing so.

So, if the actual recoil from cast lead loads that will cycle and M1, M14S, etc. is similar to jacketed loads, I might have to give up and only shoot my mouse gun and pistols, or use ultra light loads inthe semi's and hand cycle but that would be hard to give up as semi-autos are my passion.

I'll try a few loads and see what happens, maybe with a brace it might be doable, otherwise I might have to convert my AR10(T) into cash and buy some more bolt guns to shoot light loads in.

Jeff

[45 2.1]

JKH-
In the interest of keeping you shooting. There are a few military semi autos that have adjustable gas ports. With those, medium loads will function in semi auto mode. Another way to ease function requirements is to spray furniture wax on cartridges that barely function semi auto. George Nonte wrote an article about this that Wolfe reprinted in one of their earlier books (the gray colored book cover one) about getting several of the common early semis to function well. Another option is to alter the gas port size on your rifles, an option which could be potentially bad for someone after you though.

[river-rider]

Here is another approach. http://www.lahticompany.com/
I have one of these and you can hug the back of the gun but the rest pretty much
takes the recoil. You have to reset the rest after each shot and you still get some
enjoyment of sighting the rifle.

[JKH]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the info, I recently ran across one of Nonte's books on loading I have, smart man and very adaptive, one of my favorites was during the war he and a buddy picked up a sporting rifle in the .35 caliber neighborhood but no bullets=no joy, the took .30 carbine cases and cut them short, inserted the carbine bullets back in to the head so that the bullet from the ogive forward was exposed and loaded these to shoot! Crazy system but it got the rifle shooting with acceptable accuracy, I wonder if the anealed the case first?

My FAL has an adjustable gas system so that may be the first to try, I prefer my Garands and M14 clone but do like the FAL enough to have kept it for the past 5 years.

Should I try IMR4227 with the 170grain RN HP's ? Or IMR4895?

In the end run, if I have to shoot light loads one at a time its better than nothing, I do have a Kimber 82 target rifle for when things really go to hell, I'll just need a gun bearer :^ )

Jeff

[Three44s]

Hello Jeff,

Check this out:


http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

You might check out the gas adjuster idea that 45 Nut raised ... there are some for the Garrand as well. The waxing of cases was news .... thank you 45 Nut!

And so far as a bolt gun ..... YES!! That's where my play time with cast is headed .... I have some Mosin Nagants and 24/47 Yugo Mausers in wait.

Three 44s

[JKH]

holy cow! thats a blast from the past! I HAVE USED SEVERAL OF THEIR ADAPSTORS IN THE PAST, INCLUDING ONE TO SHOOT 7.62X39 IN A CZ52 7.62x45 chamber (with a very clean chamber and health dose of red loktite it actually worked well).

cast bullet loads in .30 carbine in an '06 or .308 chamber adaptor would be a pussycat. I had one in '06 before and shot standard carbine ball ammo, zero recoil and very mild report.

I have seen Schuster and other brand adjustable gas nuts for the Garand, does anyone make one for M14's?

I'll try some loads this weekend in the FAL, it has always shot softer than my M14S anyway and just might do the trick, right now it cycles beautifully on a gas setting of 3 with surplus ball, that gives me a lot of lattitude for closing the gas down using loghter loads.

I picked up a mint Mosin 91/30 sniper last year from TankerFrank on Gunboards, it would have been perfect for light CB loads, my oldest son talked me out of it before the day was over and I never even shot it! Good thing he's bigger than me and in the military, otherwise we would have had a tussle over that one ;^ ) I bet that mosin would be great with good CB loads, he had it out last week with S&B hunting ammo and was getting 5 shot 100 yard groups slightly over an inch. Anyone here shoot cast loads in a K31? I love straight pulls and if its Swiss its perfect.

Jeff

[45 2.1]

Anyone here shoot cast loads in a K31? I love straight pulls and if its Swiss its perfect. Jeff

The K11 is a much better cast boolit rifle. I've shot them since about 1975. The RCBS 308-165-SIL with 11.3 gr. of Unique is a very good shooter.

[9.3X62AL]

JKH--

I don't have a lot of experience with semi-auto rifles and cast boolits, but have fired about 30 rounds of BruceB's cast loads from his M1A. My subjective impression of the recoil impulse was that it felt like a little less than half the push given by M-80 Ball. Very gentle, in other words.

I've owned or used several military-pattern semi-auto rifles over the years, prior to their demonization by the California leftist wingnuts. I wasn't eager to deal with the foofahrah it took to retain them legally, but the bottom line was that they were NOT cheap to run. Had I tried castings in the M1As and HK-91, those rifles might have been worth hanging onto.

[JKH]

9.3,

Okay, that gives me some more hope, what load of his did you shoot? I have to peruse that thread again, LOTS of good info in there. If I remmebr correctly he had some loads going with IMR4895 which I have about 1/2 pound of to try, I wonder how WC846/BLC-2 would perform, I have an 8 pounder of that and a like size jug of AA2230C which from what I have been told correlates with H335, anyone use either of those numbers?

CB's in a HK-911/G3? Hmmm, with the delayed blowback it might run on some pretty soft loads, probably wouldnt beat the cases up nearly as bad either, not to mention you wouldnt have to look for your cases in the next town!

45, is the K11 another iteration of the Schmidt Rubin?

Jeff

[45 2.1]

CB's in a HK-911/G3? Hmmm, with the delayed blowback it might run on some pretty soft loads Yes, it will, probably wouldnt beat the cases up nearly as bad either Not true at all...., not to mention you wouldnt have to look for your cases in the next town! Also not true......

45, is the K11 another iteration of the Schmidt Rubin? Yes, but the one previous to the K31 and made in rifle and carbine versions from 1911. The carbine version (K11) is the best of the series.

Jeff[/quote]

[JKH]

45,
So, the G3 will still pound the heck out of cases and toss them from here to eternity with light loads?

Okay, I know the earlier SR straight pull a the model 1911, through me for a minute. They are sweet as well, I had a rifle length many moons ago, very smooth action. I have also played with some Ross straight pulls of which the model 1910 with interupted canon thread type lugs is the best, Steyr 85 straight pulls arent to bad either but all the ones I have had were perfect on the exterior with sewer pipe bores, except one htat was in 8x57 mauser, wish I had kept it but the extractor was missing and impossible to replace. I would really love another nice Ross 1910, guess I should peddle some semi's and buy some bolt guns and get back to my roots (except the garands, CANT sell those!).

Jeff

[45 2.1]

45,So, the G3 will still pound the heck out of cases and toss them from here to eternity with light loads?
Jeff

By the time I got the loads to function the action in semi-auto format, the cases were heavily fouled and fluted with a slight dent in the sidewall if I could find them 10 feet away. That is an improvement over full ball, but not to my likeing yet. Accuracy was excellent BTW which is the reason i'm still working with it. I think i'll go back to my M1A load with 3100 powder and try it. That one has some manners.

[richbug]

In the FN FAL, you can remove the inner recoil spring, and the gas piston spring. If your feed rails are nice an smooth(Imbel or FN receiver should be fine, DSA, Hesse or century will need some work) you can run some really soft loads through one.


In an unmodified rifle, I have been using 3100 or H4831, 37-40 grains or so with a 200 grain boolit will cycle it just with no gas system adjustments from where it runs M80 ball ammo.

[Three44s]

I have owned an HK91 since they came on the American scene .... and reloaded for just a bit longer .... and yet, never loaded for it.

Go figure!

One downside is that their chambers are fluted .... and in particular, the neck region of the chamber ...... you get these ridges FULL LENGTH of the case. You may be fighting sooted up case externals.

Regards

Three 44s

[JKH]

three44's,
reloading G3/HK91 cases is and interesting project, brass is fine as the dents will iron out but the grooves from the fluting remain, very unique looking reloads!

I probably wont be loading and shooting this weekend, spent the day with my wife and daughters and now we have my month old granddaughter for tonight and tomorrow so mom and dad can have a little extra rest, baby Edie already has grampa wrapped around her little finger ;^ )

Jeff