Powder for 38 Spec 125g plated load recommendations

[metricmonkeywrench]

Been toying with some 125g plated RNFP bullets as a lite/target load for the wife out of her S&W Model 64.

I have been loading them with 6g of Power Pistol. She likes the low recoil but accuracy is not that good. I tried some HP-38 today but the results were not promising. The only other powder I have on hand is AA#5 but I suspect the results may not be much better since it is slower than PP.

I'll be heading to the gun show this weekend and want to grab a pound of powder. Looking at the loading books I'm leaning towards Trail Boss, AA#2 or possibly Unique. There may also be a good chance by extension that this may be loaded in 357 as well so I'm looking for a powder with a good load range. I usually load plated but cast/swaged is always a possibility.

Any recommendations?

[tazman]

I have never loaded plated 125 grain boolits for my38 special. I have always used car or jacketed. That said, If I am loading plinking loads, I use either Bullseye or Titegroup at 3.0-3.5 grains. I use the same powders for full power loads, just with heavier charges.
They have been very accurate in my S&W model 14, 15, and 686.
When I am loading 357 mag, I always go with a heavier boolit. Just personal preference.

[slughammer]

Save your powder money and spend it on some different projectiles. Power Pistol is very close to Unique and HP-38 is the same as W231.

If you're not getting accuracy in 38spl with those 2 powders, the bullet is the problem.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've shot a ton or two of bullets out of 38 Special revolvers and I have to agree with the prior posts that the projectile is the problem.

Every cartridge/gun combination has a optimum bullet weight and the 38 Special lands somewhere in the 150-160 grain range.
125 grain projectiles are just a bit too light for the 38 Special.

HP-38 (AKA - ww231) is an excellent powder for 38 Special and with bullets somewhere between 150-160 grains you will find very good results.

My S&W model 64 likes loads near the upper limit for standard pressure 38 Special loads and does not respond well to downloading.

If you're looking for powder suggestions, HP-38 and Bullseye are where I would start. Most of my 38 Special career was with HP-38 (ww231) and I've recently converted to Bullseye for most of my 38 Special loads. Either one of those powders will give excellent results in 38 Special.
Unique will work but I don't like the way it meters in an automated powder measure.
I can't speak much to Trail Boss but I have used AA#2. Between AA#2 and Bullseye , I would go with Bullseye.

[Walks]

A number of people, myself included have discovered that the plated bullets are NOT as accurate as either Cast, Swaged or Jacketed.

If you want a light low recoiling load that will hit close to point of aim, and you don't cast or have access to cast. Try the swaged 158 SWC's from either HORNADY or SPEER.

I've found that while It's good for the big old high capacity black powder cases, TRAIL BOSS really raises pressures in small cases.

I use TITEGROUP, BULLSEYE or WW231/HP38 for light loads in .38SPL or .357MAG.

BULLSEYE- 3.0grs under a swaged/cast 158gr SWC is light and shoots close to point of aim in most fixed sight .38SPL revolvers.

[rintinglen]

Plated bullets shoot poorly, at least, that is my experience. I've shot about two thousand of them over the years in 9mm and they have never shot much better than 4 inches at 60 feet. That is double what I get from the same guns and well cast boolits. I've never used them in a 38 or 357. Cast works better and is cheaper, at least in my neck of the woods.

[Petrol & Powder]

And to build upon what Walks posted, there are some good commercially produced bullets that will yield low recoil and good accuracy.

The 148 grain swaged hollow based wadcutters [HBWC] available from Speer and Hornady are excellent bullets.
Either one of those bullets with 3.0 grains of HP-38 behind it will produce outstanding accuracy with little recoil.

The Speer 148 gr HBWC was my go-to wadcutter before I started casting WC's. They are available in 500 count boxes, usually for $40-$50 a box. ($0.08 - $0.10/ bullet) which is probably close to what you're paying or the 125gr plated bullets.

My experience with plated bullets is similar to what others have reported; sometimes they're accurate and sometimes they are not. I find that some guns just do not like plated bullets.

[ShooterAZ]

125 grain bullets are not "too light" for the 38 Special. They may not shoot to the sights though, in a fixed sight revolver such as a Model 10. I also believe that plated bullets aren't nearly as accurate as a cast or true jacketed bullet. Before I started casting, I used a ton of the Montana Gold 125 gr JHP loaded over 3.5 grains of Titegroup. This was a very accurate combo and I ordered the bullets by the case direct from MG. Nowadays I mostly just use cast, the 148 grain WC from a Lee 6 cavity mold has become a favorite. This one WILL shoot to the sights of a model 10.

[metricmonkeywrench]

All, thanks for the input, I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel yet. We were satisfied enough with the accuracy, though not great, but the cause came to light when I finally ran the load across the chronograph. 100fps ES points towards an ignition problem. Same gun same session shooting 3.0 BE under 148g HBWC indicates no issues with the gun. The next session I ran 2 test batches where the load was the same but I swapped to magnum primers for one batch and really heavy crimped the other. Both dropped the ES and SD by about a 3rd.

This is mostly what's leading me towards looking for a diffrent powder. My supply of Bullseye is about gone, so having another fast powder other than HP-38 on the bench can't hurt.

[Petrol & Powder]

The chronograph results certainly point to a powder problem but I think you may have several variables in the mix.

While ShooterAZ and I respectfully disagree a little on bullet weight, I think that may be one factor. While there's no doubt that a 125 grain bullet can be made to work in the 38 Special (ShooterAZ has strong evidence of that) I think it's a bit easier to get good results with something in the 150-160 grain range.

Plated bullets may be another part of the equation.

And then there's the powder part of the equation. The chronograph results lend some credence to the powder being part of the problem.

A "light for caliber" (read that as short) bullet results in a lot of volume in the casing behind the seated bullet and that coupled with a small powder charge may be a factor in those extreme spreads in velocity.

If the goal is low recoil + good accuracy, I have to wonder if there's a significant perceived difference in recoil between a lightly loaded cartridge with a 125grain bullet verses a lightly loaded cartridge with a 148gr HBWC ?

2.8 grains of Bullseye (or 3.0 grains of HP-38) under a 148gr HBWC is a pretty mild load to start with and clearly very accurate. Is there enough gain in recoil reduction to make a 125 gr load worth the effort?

[slughammer]

All, thanks for the input, I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel yet. We were satisfied enough with the accuracy, though not great, but the cause came to light when I finally ran the load across the chronograph. 100fps ES points towards an ignition problem. Same gun same session shooting 3.0 BE under 148g HBWC indicates no issues with the gun. The next session I ran 2 test batches where the load was the same but I swapped to magnum primers for one batch and really heavy crimped the other. Both dropped the ES and SD by about a 3rd.

This is mostly what's leading me towards looking for a diffrent powder. My supply of Bullseye is about gone, so having another fast powder other than HP-38 on the bench can't hurt.

I've had very good luck with 125's and Clays powder. Burned about 8lbs of it 3.1gr at a time. Ignites well, fills the case more. Was very consistent from the holster and subsequent shots when shooting steel challenge type stuff.

Your OP was about accuracy and my first reply was based on accuracy testing of 38spl at 25 yards and 45acp out at 50 yards. Multiple powders showed the same accuracy with chosen boolits. I could see the ES over the chrono, but even out at 50 yards I couldn't see an accuracy difference. (1911 Bagged with iron sights, 10 shots into 4" with several powders).

Try some Clays with the 125's, (regular Clays, not universal).

[jcren]

I burn lots of red dot or promo for light 38, 380 and 45acp loads. Not position sensitive, mellower report and recoil than BE and more case fill for less chance of double charge (i have double charged 3.6 of BE in a 38 once!). Trailboss was terrible for me in reduced 38 with 105 swc, later discovered it is not recomended for less than 70% case fill due to extreme es.

[tazman]

The chronograph results certainly point to a powder problem but I think you may have several variables in the mix.

While ShooterAZ and I respectfully disagree a little on bullet weight, I think that may be one factor. While there's no doubt that a 125 grain bullet can be made to work in the 38 Special (ShooterAZ has strong evidence of that) I think it's a bit easier to get good results with something in the 150-160 grain range.

Plated bullets may be another part of the equation.

And then there's the powder part of the equation. The chronograph results lend some credence to the powder being part of the problem.

A "light for caliber" (read that as short) bullet results in a lot of volume in the casing behind the seated bullet and that coupled with a small powder charge may be a factor in those extreme spreads in velocity.

If the goal is low recoil + good accuracy, I have to wonder if there's a significant perceived difference in recoil between a lightly loaded cartridge with a 125grain bullet verses a lightly loaded cartridge with a 148gr HBWC ?

2.8 grains of Bullseye (or 3.0 grains of HP-38) under a 148gr HBWC is a pretty mild load to start with and clearly very accurate. Is there enough gain in recoil reduction to make a 125 gr load worth the effort?

I am not certain what you would consider significant, but I can feel a noticeable difference between those two loads. I agree that the 148gr wadcutter is a superbly accurate load with little recoil.

[Salmoneye]

My supply of Bullseye is about gone, so having another fast powder other than HP-38 on the bench can't hurt.

Red Dot

[ShooterAZ]

Bullseye, Red Dot, Clays, Titegroup, 231, 700X, really any fast burning pistol powders are fully appropriate. All of them are time proven powders with 125 gr jacketed bullets. The bullet weight is not a factor. I have a library full of reloading manuals, and each and every one of them have a plethora of good data for 125 gr jacketed bullets. They work just fine.

[Ed_Shot]

I find Promo/Red Dot plenty accurate with 120~125 gr. boolits in a 38 Spl case. My favorite load is Promo 4.2 gr.

[osteodoc08]

see if you can get some 158gr SWC boolits donated to try and use HP38/W231. Thatll tell you what the issue is.

[CASTER OF LEAD]

Red Dot

+1 for Red Dot. However Titegroup gets the nod for most of my light 38 special work. Ymmv- Caster

[Walks]

Marshal,
I was given a sample of TITEGROUP to try by the HODGDON Rep, when it was first introduced at WINTER RANGE or maybe END of TRAIL. Too far back to remember exactly.

However, I definitely remember HE SAID IT WAS
NOT POSITION SENSITIVE.
Something I've found to be true over 20yrs.
It's also great in cold weather.

I've used it in almost all Cowboy Action ammo and most target loads.

Only problem I have with it, is you can't leave it sitting in your powder measure.

[tazman]

Titegroup is supposed to to be "not position sensitive". Someone on this sight did a test on that subject with Titegroup not long ago and found that it is position sensitive but not nearly as much as other powders.
I expect it would be nearly impossible to eliminate such things completely. Hodgdon has done a good job of minimizing the effects of position with this powder.
I, also, use Titegroup in the majority of my light loads as well as quite a number of full power loads in various calibers. It just works well and consistently for me.
Titegroup doesn't seem to bother the plastic on my Lee powder measures for some reason.
Often Titegroup can be found at lower prices than comparable pistol powders for some reason. It was available during the recent shortage when others were not in my area. It has become a powder I will always keep on hand now.

[smkummer]

Save your powder money and spend it on some different projectiles. Power Pistol is very close to Unique and HP-38 is the same as W231.

If you're not getting accuracy in 38spl with those 2 powders, the bullet is the problem.

Second this. Bullseye and 231 IS the powder for light loads. Just load a good old plain lead bullet. I have a female friend who shoots a lot of 3 grs. Bullseye and a 148 plain base wad cutter out of a lightweight colt agent 38. She doesn’t complain a bit about recoil.

[Petrol & Powder]

We seem to have divided into two camps = the 125 grain projectile camp and the 148 grain(ish) camp.

However we have managed to remain civil about it; so at least we're still above the average Ford v. Chevy debate :-)

Between the two camps (125 grain and 148ish grain) there is no lack of experience. Clearly followers of both camps have abundant amounts of experience with the 38 Special.


There is certainly plenty of data out there for 125 grain loads and there is no doubt that the 125 grain projectiles can be made to work.
However, I'm obviously not in the 125 grain camp.


I contend that it is easier to get a 148gr WC to shoot well than the lighter 125 grain projectile and that the recoil produced by a 148gr target load is minimal.

Like the Ford/Chevy debate, it is not likely we will come together but at least we have respectfully stated our views.

[ShooterAZ]

Not divided, I'm in both camps. I like to shoot both 125 gr and 148 gr bullets:D

[metricmonkeywrench]

So as an update, Thank you all for the input and PM's on loads and powders. I decided to forgo grabbing a different powder at the gunshow and will work with what I have on the shelf (HP38 & AA#5). I believe the HP-38(231) should be able to get me to where I need to be.

Here's some notes from asked questions:
I wasn't too clear... my wife's gun is a model 64, however my load development workhorse is a model 10-6, haven't slugged the barrel/throat/cylinder but the BC Gap is within spec.
The bullets are from Xtreme
Weight is consistent within .5-.8+/- of 125g.
Dial Caliper measures out the bullets to .356.5 consistently (Xtreme states sized to .357 the same as their 158g SWC which shoots with no problems)

[gwpercle]

38 Special , 125 grain plated or cast , fired out of my model 64 try the following:

2.8 grains of Bullseye , (755 fps) , 15 shots into 1 1/8 inch dia. , classic accuracy load, soft shooting .
5.5 grains AA #5 , (855 fps) , 10 shots make a 1 1/4 inch dia. , one ragged hole group .
6.0 grains AA #5 , (945 fps) , 15 shots make a 1 3/8 inch dia. , one ragged hole group

I usually shoot at 75 feet on indoor range.
Gary

[tazman]

They are a bit undersized for most 38/357 usage. That is undoubtedly the issue with your accuracy problem.
If they were larger, they would probably work fine. Those would be a good boolit for 9mm at that size.

[gwpercle]

So as an update, Thank you all for the input and PM's on loads and powders. I decided to forgo grabbing a different powder at the gunshow and will work with what I have on the shelf (HP38 & AA#5). I believe the HP-38(231) should be able to get me to where I need to be.

Here's some notes from asked questions:
I wasn't too clear... my wife's gun is a model 64, however my load development workhorse is a model 10-6, haven't slugged the barrel/throat/cylinder but the BC Gap is within spec.
The bullets are from Xtreme
Weight is consistent within .5-.8+/- of 125g.
Dial Caliper measures out the bullets to .356.5 consistently (Xtreme states sized to .357 the same as their 158g SWC which shoots with no problems)

Give Bullseye a try.....I don't know what it is about Bullseye but accuracy wise , I have for years tried to find a powder more accurate. Some are close, one or two are as accurate but none are more accurate in the 38 special than Bullseye....just try it once !

I have been advised that plated boolits are not as accurate as cast or jac***ed so some of your issues might be with them and beyond your control . I have always shot cast and lubed lead so have no hard data to give.
Gary

[jonp]

I've tried several powders using the Berrys Plated 125gr in my Model 15. I've had good luck with Titegroup, Promo (Red Dot) and IMR Target with my preference being Promo for economic reasons

[charlie b]

When I could still get it. I used AA5 for the .38 and .357 light loads. Now days I use AA7 in the light loads for the .357, basically a bit over .38 +P loads. All with 125gn plated bullets. Almost all of the pistol bullets I reload these days are plated. I have not been disappointed with accuracy, even when using the cheapest ones I could find.

I do find that the higher the load density the better luck I have with accuracy.

[Groo]

Groo here
If you want to try something different get some Trailboss..
There is a trick to it though.
Load the top or near top load,as full a case as possible with out compression.
A good strong taper crimp.[unless there is a crimp groove , then crimp normal to heavy]
A hot primer [I use Winchester]
You will think your using a lot of powder but your not[it is fluffy you know]
The hotter primer is because more fire is needed for a good burn[its fluffy you know.]
Better accuracy with a fuller case.[its fluffy you know]
The pressure will come on slower than bullseye more push less snap.
Just smells funny.

[roysha]

700X I use it in 32 S&W, 38 Spec, 9mm, and 45 ACP. 38 Spec, 2.7 grains with 148 gr. DEWC (yeah I know you want to shoot the 125 gr) in my S&W 14-5 will easily shoot 1 1/2" at 25 yards. Also, for folks that are small, I have a 3" S&W M-60 that I let them shoot because of the mild recoil and accuracy.

[Love Life]

I’ve never met a plated bullet that shot as well as a quality cast or jacketed bullet.