Winchester 94 out past 100 yards

[David LaPell]

I have always had a healthy respect for the Winchester 94 and .30-30 as a round in general. I have had seven or eight Model 94's and a couple Marlin .30-30's, and I know that they make a great all around rifle, not just for hunting but would be a great truck gun and if I had to have one rifle for everything outside of a .22 LR, this would be it. So I decided to take it out and practice it past 100 yards. This silhouette was put out at 125 yards, which is how far the local range goes.
I shot five rounds of my handloads, 170 grain Hornady SP behind 30.0 grains of IMR-4064. My old Model 94 put all five rounds home with ease.

https://i.imgur.com/4y6kQih.jpg?1

[redhawk0]

Nice...looks close to center of mass to me...I like it with the custom sling and the lever wrap. Looks like you've had a good day.

redhawk

[dverna]

If/when the AR's are banned, (yes, it will come to that eventually) the lever actions will become the new "assault" rifle. They are effective to at least 200 yards with a decent bullet.

I stocked up on some AR's for SHTF, and was going to get rid of the .30/30's, but decided to keep them.

[Char-Gar]

The 30 WCF (30-30) have always been a sterling round and in it's traditonal levergun format is and has been widely used. Today, I have 5 of them. A Browing 1885 SS, a Savage 340, two Marlin 336s and one Winchester 94 carbine. None of them are going anywhere.

[Omega]

I became disillusioned with the 30-30 back in the 80s. I grew up in Colorado, where 30-06 was king, so when assigned to Fort Bragg, NC I asked around to see what caliber was good for the area. Most suggested a 30-30, so went out and got a Win 94, with hindsight, I should have maybe got a Marlin due to the side mounted scope mount. I did ok with it in the bottoms, and anywhere within 100 yards, but when we found a place to hunt with shots out past 100, I found it less than adequate. Now, I play with the 300Blk, which is compared to the 30-30 and 7.62x39, ballistically, so maybe I need to give it another chance. My only lever at the moment is chambered in 308, so realistically it will be awhile before I get one, unless I come across a good deal of course.

[Walks]

WIN 94 was the 1st RIFLE, I ever bought on my own.
It was a the 1st GREAT WESTERN GUN SHOW at the GREAT WESTERN EXHIBITION CENTER just east of downtown Los Angeles, in the mid 1960's. It was $28.50, I had to borrow $3 from my DAD, He was looking over my shoulder, on my 1st Gun Deal.

I've never been without one since.
I favor the #31141 cast of sweet #2 over IMR3031.
The HORNADY 150gr RN over the same, for my 1981 REAL WINCHESTER Trapper.
And the SIERRA 170gr FN over WIN 760.

No HUNTING with plain LEAD in CA, since nanny brown's 1st 2 terms as Governor in the 1970's.
Now no lead anything for the last 2 years.

[Outpost75]

Here's mine at 200 yards.

229294

[smkummer]

During the last ammo shortage when 30-06, 308 and 223 was gone from the shelves, 30-30 was still there. If it had to do it, 30-30 will kill anything on this continent. 200 yards is my main range and a 170 grain lead bullet at 1600 FPS rings a 24” plate easily. My only complaint is the front hunting bead sight completely covers that plate at 200 yards. I thought about changing the sight but then it takes away from the fast hunting sight target acquisition.

[dverna]

Here's mine at 200 yards.

229294

Yep....I wouldn't want to be the guy you are pissed off at even at 300 yards. Like I said above, I kept my .30/30's even though I do not use them for hunting. I have better choices in case of a long shot...but I would feel adequately armed if it was all I had. Load some FTX bullets over Leverevolution, and it will perform better at longer ranges. Larry Gibson did a lot of work with that combination of bullet and powder a while back and posted a great thread on it.

[koger]

Try some leverloutions from Hornady, the 160 FTX makes it a true 200+ yard gun! I have a Winchester and Marlin 336, both shot much better with the LL loads. As a plus, you can buy the bullets and the powder, with the factory load data on the can. I have shot the same hole for 3 shotos at 50 yds, using 1 factory round and two of the FTX's that I loaded with the data on the can!

[retread]

Spire point in a tubular magazine??


I have always had a healthy respect for the Winchester 94 and .30-30 as a round in general. I have had seven or eight Model 94's and a couple Marlin .30-30's, and I know that they make a great all around rifle, not just for hunting but would be a great truck gun and if I had to have one rifle for everything outside of a .22 LR, this would be it. So I decided to take it out and practice it past 100 yards. This silhouette was put out at 125 yards, which is how far the local range goes.
I shot five rounds of my handloads, 170 grain Hornady SP behind 30.0 grains of IMR-4064. My old Model 94 put all five rounds home with ease.

https://i.imgur.com/4y6kQih.jpg?1

[Outpost75]

Spire point in a tubular magazine??

Nope Hornady 170 SP is a round-nosed soft point with generous glob of exposed lead.

[Outpost75]

During the last ammo shortage when 30-06, 308 and 223 was gone from the shelves, 30-30 was still there. If it had to do it, 30-30 will kill anything on this continent. 200 yards is my main range and a 170 grain lead bullet at 1600 FPS rings a 24” plate easily. My only complaint is the front hunting bead sight completely covers that plate at 200 yards. I thought about changing the sight but then it takes away from the fast hunting sight target acquisition.

The factory open sights of pre-1964 Winchester Model 94s in .30-30 came zeroed to strike within a 3 inch circle drawn tangent at 6:00 inside a 6 inch black aiming bull at 50 yards. Normal sight picture with open sights is to take a "fine" bead in which the front sight is drawn all the way into the small rear notch, then using the bead to take a 6:00 hold on the bull, using factory loads, with the sight elevator set on its lowest notch.

Each step on the open rear sight elevator increases the zero range by approximately 50 yards or meters. Raising the open rear sight into its second elevator step with the correct height of front sight height should be zeroed at 100 yards, the third notch at 150 yards, and the 4th notch 200, using a "fine" bead, drawn down completely into the small notch, and taking a 6:00 hold.

When using semi-buckhorn factory open sights for quick combat range estimation, the shoulders of an FBI silhouette or Army "E" target approximately fill the width of the small lower notch at 100 yards or meters. If you can see daylight there around the shoulders of the silhouette, the target is farther than 100 meters and to make a quick shot at a fleeting target without stopping to adjust the sights, you would then alter your sight picture so that the bead "floats" above the fine notch.

When the bead is leveled with the first shoulder inside the semi-buckhorn, above the inner notch, point of impact approximately coincides with the center of the bead at 200 yards. Proper sight picture, being altered from the base 100-yard zero, then is to hold for center of mass of the Army “E” or “F” silhouette.

At longer ranges, the hasty combat sight correction is to raise the front sight relative to the rear notch so that the bead "floats" between the top ears of the semi-buckhorn open sight. The bead then subtends the height of the silhouette and provides correct elevation to approximately 300 yards or meters.

Receiver peep sights should be adjusted to a base zero which exploits the optimum trajectory of the .30-30 cartridge. Using factory 170-grain loads with a bead front sight and ghost ring aperture the rifle should be zeroed to strike 3 to 4 inches above the front sight at 100 yards, or 10 cm high at 100 metres on a metric range. This provides a point of aim = point of impact hold, covering the target with the bead at about 170 yards, hitting 3 inches below a center-of-mass hold at 200 yards and 10-1/2” below center-of-mass, into the lower half of Army E or F silhouette targets at 250 yards.

Using correct sight picture, with a correct base zero, a game warden or state trooper qualified as Sharpshooter or better should average 80% hits or better on the Army "E" silhouette at 200 yards, 70% or better at 250 yards and 60% hits or better at 300 yards. The correctly zeroed and managed .30-30 lever action provides hit probability fully equal to the Soviet SKS and is more accurate than typical AK platforms at ranges exceeding 100 yards or meters.

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[Hick]

I find the Hornady 150 FMJ/BT does very nicely in my 30-30 well past 100 yards-- the only catch is you have to load the rounds singly because (1) its a very sharp spire point and (2) the round is too long for the cartridge lifter.

[Remmy4477]

In the 80's and 90's the gun writers gave the old 30wcf some awful bad press trying to sell the latest and greatest rifles and ammo. More comments than not said it was useless beyond 50-100 yards. Again another great approach to sell the newest thing. Yet the old 30 wcf has taken more game both big and small since its creation than most of the "new fangled" rifles and cartridges ever will!

My grandfather lived and hunted in colorado during the 30's, 40's and fifties. His rifle of choice a winchester 94 made in 05 with a 26 inch barrel, 30wcf.
With him one shot kills on dear and elk from 100 to 600 yards was the norm, If he could see it he could kill it!!

Don't sell the old 30-30 short, in the right hands it can be deadly at any range!

[Jkrem]

Excellent thread.

[EMC45]

For the past many decades it's been the cry of "7MM Mag or 300 Win Mag" for whitetail. The 30-30 will do it. I never understood when hunting in GA the amount of hunters that carried huge magnum rifles with Hubble telescopes on them for 75 yard shots in pine thickets. My recommendation to new hunters was always "get a 30-30". Ammo can be found EVERYWHERE and pretty cheap as well - Remington Core Lokts in 150 or 170gr do just fine.

[FergusonTO35]

I have always had a healthy respect for the Winchester 94 and .30-30 as a round in general. I have had seven or eight Model 94's and a couple Marlin .30-30's, and I know that they make a great all around rifle, not just for hunting but would be a great truck gun and if I had to have one rifle for everything outside of a .22 LR, this would be it. So I decided to take it out and practice it past 100 yards. This silhouette was put out at 125 yards, which is how far the local range goes.
I shot five rounds of my handloads, 170 grain Hornady SP behind 30.0 grains of IMR-4064. My old Model 94 put all five rounds home with ease.

https://i.imgur.com/4y6kQih.jpg?1

You da man! IMR 4064 is an awesome powder for .30 WCF, all I use for it anymore other than .32-20 level loads. What position were you shooting from? Did you use a rest of any sort?

[Omega]

For the past many decades it's been the cry of "7MM Mag or 300 Win Mag" for whitetail. The 30-30 will do it. I never understood when hunting in GA the amount of hunters that carried huge magnum rifles with Hubble telescopes on them for 75 yard shots in pine thickets. My recommendation to new hunters was always "get a 30-30". Ammo can be found EVERYWHERE and pretty cheap as well - Remington Core Lokts in 150 or 170gr do just fine.I seen a lot of that as well back in the 80s in the NC woods. I dropped a few deer before I switched over to the 270 Win, it did its job down in the thickets. The problem I had was when I had to go from average shots under 50 yards, to ones greater than 100. Due to the side mounted scope mount, the POI would shift greatly from zero at 100 to shooting left of POA at 200 not to mention the drop. The 270 wasn't as good at punching through errant branches, but it did not have to, I could thread a needle with my Winchester Model 70. If the 30-30 is all I had, I could make it work, but if I get another, it will be the Marlin because of the scope mount and almost straight up ejection.

[redhawk0]

I grew up in PA and have been hunting since I was 12 (43 years now)...There were two "staples" when I was a kid growing up, the 30-30 and the 30-06. Seems everyone had at least one of those two cartridges. I now own both (plus a few more). On my post-64 Win94, I put a tactical rail scope mount (mounts in the rear site dovetail, and one screw on the side of the receiver.) I then mounted a 2-7 Bushnell scout scope. Since its a scout scope and the eye relief is long, the rear bell is over the chamber allowing for top eject.

Anyway...I am a firm believer in proven cartridges that have been around for a long time...ammo is easy to find, relatively inexpensive, easily reloadable (data is plentiful)...and in general, if something should go wrong with the firearm...parts are easily obtainable as well....the 30-30 definitely meets all those criteria.

redhawk

[bob208]

yes I remember the 80's and 90's when the .30-30 would not even get a clean kill on a groundhog at 25 yds. even if you could hit it. remember the old 94 was less accurate then a smoothbore.

with Skeeter and Elmer gone the gun mags. just became sales brochures for the latest and greatest.

[Texas by God]

Back in the 1970s and 80s the 30-30 in a rifle was short-range only Wonder. if you put it in a 10 inch barreled contender it became a 300-yard deer gun!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[northmn]

Back in the 1970s and 80s the 30-30 in a rifle was short-range only Wonder. if you put it in a 10 inch barreled contender it became a 300-yard deer gun!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Darn right. Then you had Jeff Cooper proving that a 44 mag revolver was far superior to the 94 at 100 yards. There was an article on the Marlin forum I believe talking about all the B.S. that has been perpetrated about the 30-30. One claim was that an individual that used or borrowed one held over the back of a deer at about 75 yards because he thought it would drop that much and was upset that he missed it.

My 38-55, according to the Lyman cast bullet catalog has a fairly point blank range at 150 yards. This is with a 1650 fps load and 100 yard sight in. At 200 that gets very tricky as the bullet really starts to drop after 150 yards. Take a 30-30 at about 2100 with a 170 grain bullet and that range will increase quite a bit. With flat points many considered that with a proper 100 yard sight in one had a point blank of about 175 yards. I would say that the 94's limitation is in the sights. Maybe with a scout scope or the use of a Marlin and normal scope one could do quite a bit better.

DEP

[EMC45]

The trash talk against the 30-30 has been pervasive for decades - I've never understood it either. What's not to like?....Relatively light weight, .30 caliber cartridge, good magazine capacity, light recoil, ammo availability, very effective on game, on gun racks in pawn and gunshops all over America....I just don't get it.

[Walks]

Outpost75,
That's some good info. I'd forgotten about the settings for the Win 94 peep sight.
I put a WILLIAMS FP & 3/32" bead on my TRAPPER when I bought back in 1982, last of the REAL WINCHESTER'S, A top eject.
Bottomed out that would put 170gr loads 2" high at 50yrds & dead on at 125yrds. It was also dead on with 150grs RN/SP at 50yrds.
Used to load one 150gr Spitzer in the tube & one chambered. Where I hunted with it there was a 1 percent chance for a 3rd shot.

[smkummer]

The factory open sights of pre-1964 Winchester Model 94s in .30-30 came zeroed to strike within a 3 inch circle drawn tangent at 6:00 inside a 6 inch black aiming bull at 50 yards. Normal sight picture with open sights is to take a "fine" bead in which the front sight is drawn all the way into the small rear notch, then using the bead to take a 6:00 hold on the bull, using factory loads, with the sight elevator set on its lowest notch.

Each step on the open rear sight elevator increases the zero range by approximately 50 yards or meters. Raising the open rear sight into its second elevator step with the correct height of front sight height should be zeroed at 100 yards, the third notch at 150 yards, and the 4th notch 200, using a "fine" bead, drawn down completely into the small notch, and taking a 6:00 hold.

When using semi-buckhorn factory open sights for quick combat range estimation, the shoulders of an FBI silhouette or Army "E" target approximately fill the width of the small lower notch at 100 yards or meters. If you can see daylight there around the shoulders of the silhouette, the target is farther than 100 meters and to make a quick shot at a fleeting target without stopping to adjust the sights, you would then alter your sight picture so that the bead "floats" above the fine notch.

When the bead is leveled with the first shoulder inside the semi-buckhorn, above the inner notch, point of impact approximately coincides with the center of the bead at 200 yards. Proper sight picture, being altered from the base 100-yard zero, then is to hold for center of mass of the Army “E” or “F” silhouette.

At longer ranges, the hasty combat sight correction is to raise the front sight relative to the rear notch so that the bead "floats" between the top ears of the semi-buckhorn open sight. The bead then subtends the height of the silhouette and provides correct elevation to approximately 300 yards or meters.

Receiver peep sights should be adjusted to a base zero which exploits the optimum trajectory of the .30-30 cartridge. Using factory 170-grain loads with a bead front sight and ghost ring aperture the rifle should be zeroed to strike 3 to 4 inches above the front sight at 100 yards, or 10 cm high at 100 metres on a metric range. This provides a point of aim = point of impact hold, covering the target with the bead at about 170 yards, hitting 3 inches below a center-of-mass hold at 200 yards and 10-1/2” below center-of-mass, into the lower half of Army E or F silhouette targets at 250 yards.

Using correct sight picture, with a correct base zero, a game warden or state trooper qualified as Sharpshooter or better should average 80% hits or better on the Army "E" silhouette at 200 yards, 70% or better at 250 yards and 60% hits or better at 300 yards. The correctly zeroed and managed .30-30 lever action provides hit probability fully equal to the Soviet SKS and is more accurate than typical AK platforms at ranges exceeding 100 yards or meters.

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Thank you so much for this info. That took a lot of your time and is very appreciated.

[Outpost75]

Thank you so much for this info. That took a lot of your time and is very appreciated.

Didn't take much time. The lesson was already "in the can" and that is how I was taught to shoot the '94 Winchester by LTC Ellis Lea, (USA) Ret. when he still worked for the Office of Public Safety for USAID in the early 1970s.

[beagle]

In my younger days, I was down at Ft Bragg, NC visiting a friend who ran one of the Army's Trainfire ranges. We were talking guns and loafing and decided to see how well my M94 would do on 200 yard silly wets. It surprised us both and took down about every one we aimed at after the first couple of shots.
Then, we switched to my M1911A1, an old Remington, and GI Ball ammo. After about a magazine of trial and error, we were able to take down silhouettes quite regularly.
Surprised both of us on the effectiveness of these two old standbys.
Bought my first M94 in the early 60s and since that time, there's been a .30/30 in the house ever since....and a.30/06 as well./beagle

[MT Gianni]

I laugh about the article in an old gun magazine how a 14" contender in 30-30 was superior to a 94 because it could take a pointed bullet. The 94 would also, you just load 1 in the chamber and one in the tube.

[northmn]

I laugh about the article in an old gun magazine how a 14" contender in 30-30 was superior to a 94 because it could take a pointed bullet. The 94 would also, you just load 1 in the chamber and one in the tube.

Now we have the LE's, but the 14 inch barrel also gave enough less velocity such that the pointed bullet would have lost any advantage. What some don't mention is that the bullets for a 30-30 are more or less unique to the cartridge. After the 120 years its been around they have them down pretty good. When I got my daughter her 300 Savage bolt I loaded it down a bit but used 150 grain Cor Loks made for the 30-30. Those caliber dedicated bullets have made the 30-30 more effective than paper suggests.

That trick is so old it has hair on it but they really work well on reduced loads. Many of the spitzers are made to function in everything from the Savage to the 30-06. Now Hornady is making a bullet just for the 300 Savage. While I have used a 300 as well as my daughter, softer bullets would not hurt anything.

DEP

[Texas by God]

That old trick works well at full .308 velocity as well. I noticed well hit runoffs stopped when I switched to 30-30 specific bullets instead of pointed btsp in my Sako .308 back when.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[LAH]

I've shot mine out to 300 plinking rocks with a 190 cast at 1600. That for sure is stretching the load but it can be done if you know your rifle. Like most here I think it's a very good all round rifle for most things you normally do. They are handy & inexpensive. By the way mine is the unless post 64 model made the first year after the pre 64s went away. And everyone knows they are no good.

https://i.imgur.com/VW3Ydxg.jpg?1

[indian joe]

I've shot mine out to 300 plinking rocks with a 190 cast at 1600. That for sure is stretching the load but it can be done if you know your rifle. Like most here I think it's a very good all round rifle for most things you normally do. They are handy & inexpensive. By the way mine is the unless post 64 model made the first year after the pre 64s went away. And everyone knows they are no good.

https://i.imgur.com/VW3Ydxg.jpg?1

And everyone knows they are no good ---- interesting comment - I have a post 64 model 70 in 22/250 - also regarded as no good - the pre 64 mauser type with its controlled feed /claw extractor is so much better ? Funny thing - I have had around 4000 through mine, throat is burnt some, and accuracy started to decline but NEVER had an extraction problem - not one time! Would not swap for a pre 64 even if you added a large sum of cash to the deal.

[LAH]

Guess I could have done without saying that Joe but thought I'd say it before someone else did. :groner:

[Char-Gar]

My first centerfire rifle was an old octagon barrel Win. 94 rifle. This was about 1956. On the way to Boca Beach down here, there are some mud flats with a hill behind them that was used by the Army for a rifle range, when Fort Brown was still active. I picked up rifle brass and even a few loaded rounds from before 1910.

At any rate some of the old boards were still there and bleached white by the sun. I took a seating position from 600 yards and went to work on a 3 foot by 5 foot board. I could see the bullet strikes on the dry flats and when I got the elevator set, I proceded to put five rounds in the the board. That convinced me that the 30-30 was more than a 100 hard rifle.

[modified5]

But I thought you needed to shoot a 338 Lapua to get past 100 yards much less kill the new generation of armor plated deer!
Love my 30-30’s!

[snoopy]

Thank you