I'm going to start CCWing with reloads...

[Idaho45guy]

I've seen a few threads over the years in which people say carrying reloads in your CCW pistol is a horrible idea because they are unreliable and a prosecuting attorney will use it against you.

I carry reloads in my woods carry pistols...

I have been using either Federal Hydra-Shoks or Hornady Critical Defense in my CCW pistols since I started carrying.

I have never gone to the range and shot a full session at varying distances with that ammo (except 10mm Hydra Shoks since it was free and I think it is worthless).

I have never been able to afford to blast 100 rounds of expensive carry ammo at a time. That's $100 or more worth of .40 S&W Critical Defense ammo. It has bugged me for years that I was not practicing with the same ammo that I would potentially use to save my life.

So I decided to start loading and shooting full-power loads with Speer Gold Dot or Hornady XTP bullets. That's still $25 and change for a 100-round range session, but that's a lot easier to swallow.

I loaded up some .40 S&W with the 165gr Gold Dot and 7gr of Silhouette powder. That's not a max charge, which is 7.2gr, and the bullet doesn't have a scary name. I don't see how an over zealous prosecuting attorney could accuse me of "looking for trouble" or having a "Death Wish vigilante mentality" if I ever have to defend my life and my self-defense reloads are in the pistol.

I will now be able to be completely familiar with recoil, point of impact, accuracy, and shootability of the ammo I could potentially use to save my life or the lives of others.

Anyone else use their own reloads for carry ammo?

[MyFlatline]

Always have carried reloads..

Agree with Marshall 100 %

[Hossfly]

I produce all my own ammo.

[El Bibliotecario]

I would speculate that the concern about factory v. handloaded ammunition stems from a prominent gun writer who has repeatedly warned of the legal perils of shooting folks with handloads. This writer also advised that when attending training, to take away only what works for you. I will apply that good advice to his opinion on ammunition.

[bgw45]

I've heard the issue of "killer reloads" for years being an issue in court after a successful defence. I have never seen or heard of an actual case where a prosecutor/civil case included this for the state or injured bad guy.

If anyone has knowledge of reloads being a factor in an actual court case, please post the case info. Thanks

[dragon813gt]

I would speculate that the concern about factory v. handloaded ammunition stems from a prominent gun writer who has repeatedly warned of the legal perils of shooting folks with handloads. This writer also advised that when attending training, to take away only what works for you. I will apply that good advice to his opinion on ammunition.

And that would be Massad Ayoob. I’m mentioning his name so others can read his writings and make their own decisions.

[Idaho45guy]

Took my new S&W M&P40c to the range with my new reloads. Very disappointing in a few regards.

My old M&P40c would do 2-2 1/2" groups at 25yds. My XDS 40 will do 1 5/8" - 1 3/4" at 25 yds.

Not sure what is going on, but my best group with reloads was 4". I shot a 5-shot group with the current carry ammo, Hornady Critical Defense with 165g bullets. It was scary bad with a 9" group.

The weird thing is, I can shoot a 1" group off-hand with the same ammo at 10yds.

I will try some loads with the 155gr and 180gr XTPs and see if the pistol responds to that.

The shorter distance performance is definitely acceptable, but I need to get the 25yd groups cut down quite a bit before I'm happy.

[MyFlatline]

Took my new S&W M&P40c to the range with my new reloads. Very disappointing in a few regards.

My old M&P40c would do 2-2 1/2" groups at 25yds. My XDS 40 will do 1 5/8" - 1 3/4" at 25 yds.

Not sure what is going on, but my best group with reloads was 4". I shot a 5-shot group with the current carry ammo, Hornady Critical Defense with 165g bullets. It was scary bad with a 9" group.

The weird thing is, I can shoot a 1" group off-hand with the same ammo at 10yds.

I will try some loads with the 155gr and 180gr XTPs and see if the pistol responds to that.

The shorter distance performance is definitely acceptable, but I need to get the 25yd groups cut down quite a bit before I'm happy.

Not being judgmental but if I am in a situation that I need to pull my CW , I doubt it will be more that 30 feet. If we are just talking practice that is one thing.. I'm not looking to take a pistol to a rifle fight, if you get my meaning. Again , please take no offence, but I get confused in these discussions..

[Tom W.]

I haven't purchased factory loads for carry in many years. Many years. I carry my handloads in my pistols & revolver, and they are cast boolits. So far they've saved my bacon twice. I haven't had any problems from LE, lawyers or other city officials about it. The local Sheriff's Office knows what I have and never did they say that it's not a good thing. All I've been told was to hit what I'm aiming at.

[Idaho45guy]

Not being judgmental but if I am in a situation that I need to pull my CW , I doubt it will be more that 30 feet. If we are just talking practice that is one thing.. I'm not looking to take a pistol to a rifle fight, if you get my meaning. Again , please take no offence, but I get confused in these discussions..

So you know for a fact that you will never have to hit a target farther than 30' in order to defend your own or another's life?

And that is the crux of the argument. I don't drive around or walk around town with a rifle. I like to know that I can hit a target reliably at 75'.

Yes, the majority of self-defense shootings are under 10yds, but since the chance that any of us are going to be in ANY self-defense shooting is miniscule, then why not have the ability to engage a target beyond 30'?

We already spent thousands of dollars being prepared for something that will likely never happen, so why not be prepared even further?

[HATCH]

You walking a fine line.
As a CWP holder there are only a handful (ie 2 or 3) situations that you aren't required to retreat from first.
I can't speak for every state because I live in SC so I can only speak about my state's laws

You can “stand your ground” and meet the attack with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe that your force is necessary to protect you
or someone else from death or great bodily injury or to prevent the commission of a violent crime. You don’t have a duty to retreat. This protection applies in public, such as on a
sidewalk or at the mall, or at your business.
If you are in your home or vehicle there are only one or two situations that don't fall under the stand your ground clause.
Most of the time if you are in your vehicle or home you are cleared to defend yourself.

Generally speaking from my experience at the ranges that I have attended over the past decades, there is only a handful amount of people that I have to worry about beyond 10 yards if they have a handgun. On rifles I would say beyond 100 yards (without a scope)
Yes, they can send a bunch of lead down range and there is a decent chance one will hit their mark. But I would hope that after the first couple shots fired at me that I would respond with fire and the person would need to go on the defense vs the offense.
I say that I hope because I have never been in a situation where I was being fired upon.
And unless you are a LEO or have been deployed in the Military, chances are you haven't been in that situation either.

It is fun to discuss what ifs, kinda like what you would do if you won the $1.6 billion dollar lottery but in reality its just a dream in either case.

[poppy42]

I’ve said this many times, and I’ll say it again! Show me one documented case where charges have been brought against someone defending themselves Soley because he used handloads ! They don’t exist A legal justified shooting is just that a legal justified shooting. Until someone can show me that documented case I will continue to use my hand loads for self-defense

[Dan Cash]

Idaho45guy
I am another who carries home rolled exclusively except for .32 ACP on the rare occasions that is the carry gun. Mine are all cast and multi purpose in nature. I live in the country and carry every day for sport, self defense and for pleasure shooting. I fire at least 12 rounds a day and have no reservations about my ammo.

[Dieselhorses]

If you feel like your life is threatened, you can defend your life using any means possible. It is either you or the assailant. This includes rocks, kitchen knives, flower pots, picture frames, tire irons and a host of other garage sale items. So no, the least of the arguments will be that you shot a perp with homemade ammo. It's either justified or not justified. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.

[bob208]

I have never carried a factory round in my ccw all my loads have been cast. the only j bullets I have carried are Remington golden sabers in 9m/m 124 gr. loaded in mixed head stamp brass. the h-p is totally reliable.

[JBinMN]

Just recently there was a topic where someone... I think it was the member, JimP , that shared a link to cases where handloads were part of an issue with the trials of some whoused handloads vs. factory rounds. I will try to locate it & share both the link to the topic as well as the link to the referenced handloads vs factory round cases.

Might take me a bit..

I will comment on "MY opinion" , after Igo look to see if I can find the info.

[FergusonTO35]

As far as I can remember, the only factory ammo ive ever carried were CCI Mini Mags in my Beretta Bobcat. That was way back when I only glove box carried, before I got my license.

[contender1]

I have heard this discussion often. And I had the pleasure of meeting & talking with Mr. Ayoob once,, and his thought was this.
He has been called to testify a lot about shootings,, and is considered an expert. He says,, it may not have happened YET,,, (at that time, several years ago,) but that he advises the carrying of factory ammo over handloads BECAUSE an over-zealous prosecutor MAY use just about any argument to prosecute you. Including your choice of ammo,, that may or may not be as "lethal" as factory ammo. And, he added,, that even if it's a weak argument,, it can cast doubt in a juror's eyes,, as well as make you spend more money for ballistic experts to testify in your behalf.

I also carry ammo I handloaded. And if, God forbid, I ever get into a situation to where I have to use my firearm for SD,, I will ONLY speak to my lawyer,, and then I will use as much legal jargon as I can to protect myself. (My wife worked as a paralegal for many years.) I'll use what I prefer,, and let the jury & courts decide if I'm right or wrong.

[Tom W.]

Dieselhorses, I'd rather be acquitted by 12 than carried by six....

[JBinMN]

I could not find the topic here at CB.GL forum that I mentioned a few posts back, but I found what I think is one of the source links to reference info that was presented in the post I read in the topic I mentioned earlier...

You make your own decisions. It is your *** on the line...
;)

-------------------
NH v. Kennedy

{Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843. }

----------------
NJ V. Bias

{Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823
Note:
Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

Supreme Court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT.TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995.
State v. Bias
142 N>J> 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)}
-----------------------

TN v. Barnes
{The records of TN v. Barnes are archived under case number 87297015 at:

Criminal Justice Center
201 Poplar
Suite 401
Memphis, TN 38103}
---------------------

Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

------------------

Source: https://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reference-how-forum/81488-cases-where-handloads-caused-problems-court.html

Original source:http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

----------------------
I carry both my own handloads & factory SD loads. I do not believe that it should matter which is used in a self defense situation.
Would it matter if I used a custom made knife to defend myself or a store bought kitchen knife?
Why should it matter what I use if it is a JUSTIFIED case of Self Defense?

Of course, there may be a prosecutor who will use whatever they can to convict, while at the same time, if it was JUSTIFIED, why would they prosecute?

Do what ya think is right & what you are willing to defend.

G'Luck!
;)

[fast ronnie]

I have looked at each location of each who have posted on this thread. I don't recall anyone who has posted about carrying handloads who lives in California.
Here, you are not even allowed to change a spring in your ccw. (YES, IT IS STIPULATED!!!)
My instructor was very adamant about the ammunition in your carry to be factory loaded only. If you live in California, you will know why. Yes, it is expensive, but what cost will be your decision if the need arises?
Carry what the local LEO carries, or even the FBI. There will then be no need to justify what you are carrying. (you are going to have enough problems without adding that.)

[sw282]

l have been shooting IHMSA silhouettes since the 70s.. l have shot quite a bit of factory ammo over the years. Most of the time to get Federal Brass, which l prefer. Except in the very early years, l cant remember shooting factory ammo that shot better than MY AMMO..
For years l had a factory box of 270 Winchester 130 gr SP on my bench with a couple rds where the bullets were seated BASE UP..
Me thinks it may be possible some gun writers might be biased against hand loads because they may get free ammo/money or BOTH from sponsors.
0nly situation where hand loads are not allowed is air travel.. TSA states that ammunition MUST be in factory cartons...
The ammo in my CWP 38spcl is loaded/tested/inspected by ME.. Anyone else is uncceptable

[bob208]

yes some states are way better then others. pa. is a stand your ground state. I would not live in any other.

[Catshooter]

When I load fighting ammo, I do the following:

Inspect the primers for compound & anvil

Use only once-fired brass, that way I know the case has a flash hole


Watch the powder drop (the drop tubes on my RCBS presses are clear) or look into each case for powder prior to bullet placement


Check each round when they're done for a primer that's there and properly seated.


As far as worrying about prosecution for using handloads, well, for many years Ayoob was a major distributor for Cor-Bon. And it's never happened. So I call it a case of vested interest and don't worry about some vague possibility.



Cat

[Mr_Sheesh]

In WA State the top end of the law on SD shootings is:

There has to be a THREAT to your or anothers' life (Implicit or explicit);
The other person has to be ABLE to carry out the threat;
And you have to do nothing to ESCALATE that situation.

Given those 3 conditions, and assuming your defense attorney isn't a complete DOLT, do you really believe that carrying factory ammo versus handloads is likely to become an issue?

Say some guy picks up a machete and runs at you from 20 feet away, and you're sitting at the time, what, you should have had factory ammo instead of whatever accurate good-functioning handload ammo you are carrying? IDK, seems "off" to me.

Massad Ayoob makes money from controversy, is, I suspect, part of it; Most gun writers only make money by getting people stirred up. I don't have time to deal with being stirred up, I have other priorities :)

[John Ross]

I have spoken personally with Massad Ayoob about this issue. A prosecutor can TRY to paint a picture of the self defense shooter in a negative light, such as:

* Use the same ammo local police use? You're a cop wannabe.
* Use FMJ ammo? That's a MILITARY TYPE WARFIGHTING LOAD!
* Use JHP? That's a DUM DUM, banned even for the military for fighting wars!

A good lawyer will be able to counter all of these EXCEPT arguments that hinge on GSR. They might bring up the fact that you DO reload, that you DO compete in combat-type matches, that you DO shoot a lot...and your lawyer will shoot all these issues down. Those are ARGUMENTS and OPINIONS, and you can win in both.

GSR, however, is hard science. It's there or it's not. The problems with admissibility of "evidence that was literally manufactured by the defendant" are almost insurmountable. The Danny Bias case was the "Canary in the coal mine" for people who use handloads in their defense weapons, even though it had nothing to do with self defense.

From Massad Ayoob:

NJ V. Bias

This is the classic case of gunshot residue (GSR) evidence being complicated by the use of handloaded ammunition, resulting in a case being misinterpreted in a tragic and unjust way. On the night of 2/26/89, Danny Bias entered the master bedroom of his home to find his wife Lise holding the family home defense revolver, a 6” S&W 686, to her head. He told police that knowing that she had a history of suicidal ideation, he attempted to grab the gun, which discharged, killing her. The gun was loaded with four handloaded lead SWC cartridges headstamped Federal .38 Special +P.

Autopsy showed no GSR. The medical examiner determined that Lise Bias had a reach of 30”, and the NJSP Crime Lab in Trenton determined that the gun in question would deposit GSR to a distance of 50” or more with either factory Federal 158 grain SWC +P .38 Special, or handloads taken from his home under warrant for testing after Danny told them about the reloads. However, the reloads that were taken and tested had Remington-Peters headstamps on the cases and were obviously not from the same batch.

Danny had loaded 50 rounds into the Federal cases with 2.3, 2.6, and 2.9 grains of Bullseye over Winchester primers, under an unusually light 115 grain SWC that he had cast himself, seeking a very light load that his recoil-sensitive wife could handle. The gun had been loaded at random from that box of 50 and there was no way of knowing which of the three recipes was in the chamber from which the fatal bullet was launched.

We duplicated that load, and determined that with all of them and particularly the 2.3 grain load, GSR distribution was so light that it could not be reliably gathered or recovered, from distances as short as 24”. Unfortunately, the remaining rounds in the gun could not be disassembled for testing as they were the property of the court, and there is no forensic artifact that can determine the exact powder charge that was fired from a given spent cartridge.

According to an attorney who represented him later, police originally believed the death to be a suicide. However, the forensic evidence testing indicated that was not possible, and it was listed as suspicious death. Based largely on the GSR evidence, as they perceived it, the Warren County prosecutor’s office presented the case to the grand jury, which indicted Danny Bias for Murder in the First Degree in the death of his wife.

Attorney John Lanza represented Danny very effectively at his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. Legal fees exceeded $100,000, bankrupting Danny; Attorney Lanza, who believed then and now in his client’s innocence, swallowed some $90,000 worth of legal work for which he was never paid.

For his second trial, Bias was assigned attorney Elisabeth Smith by the Public Defender’s office. Challenging the quality of evidence collection, she was able to weaken the prosecution’s allegation that the GSR factor equaled murder, but because the GSR issue was so muddled by the handloaded ammo factor, she could not present concrete evidence that the circumstances were consistent with suicide, and the second trial ended with a hung jury in 1992. At this point, the prosecution having twice failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, the judge threw out the murder charge.

It was after this that I personally lost track of the case. However, I’ve learned this past week that the case of NJ v. Daniel Bias was tried a third time in the mid-1990s, resulting in his being acquitted of Aggravated Manslaughter but convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. The appellate division of the Public Defender’s office handled his post-conviction relief and won him a fourth trial. The fourth trial, more than a decade after the shooting, ended with Danny Bias again convicted of Reckless Manslaughter. By now, the state had changed its theory and was suggesting that Danny had pointed the gun at her head to frighten her, thinking one of the two empty chambers would come up under the firing pin, but instead discharging the gun. Danny Bias was sentenced to six years in the penitentiary, and served three before being paroled. He remains a convicted felon who cannot own a firearm.

It is interesting to hear the advice of the attorneys who actually tried this case. John Lanza wrote, “When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target.”

He adds, “With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load. With a hand load, you have no such uniformity. Also, the prosecution may utilize either standard loads or a different hand load in its testing. The result would be distorted and could be prejudicial to the defendant. Whether or not the judge would allow such a scientific test to be used at trial, is another issue, which, if allowed, would be devastating for the defense. From a strictly forensic standpoint, I would not recommend the use of hand loads because of the inherent lack of uniformity and the risk of unreliable test results. Once the jury hears the proof of an otherwise unreliable test, it can be very difficult to ‘unring the bell.’”

Ms. Smith had this to say, after defending Danny Bias through his last three trials. I asked her, “Is it safe to say that factory ammunition, with consistently replicable gunshot residue characteristics, (would) have proven that the gun was within reach of Lise’s head in her own hand, and kept the case from escalating as it did?”

She replied, “You’re certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, “It couldn’t have happened the way he said it did’.”

The records on the Bias trials should be available through:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Warren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823

Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter.

142 N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table)

END AYOOB QUOTE

The takeaway here is that if there is ANY question about how far away you were when you shot in self-defense, factory ammo can help show you were at the distance you say you were. Handloads can't.

So, do I carry factory ammo in my gun? No. Factory .500 ammo has waaaay too much penetration. But since it can easily be proven that I am physically unable to run without falling down, and can only walk at a normal pace, I cannot envision a SD shooting case that would hinge on whether I was either three, five, or fifteen feet from my attacker.

[dverna]

John Ross, thank you for posting that.

As I will never use anything but near full power loads for SD, the issue of a light load yielding insufficient GSR is moot.

The post about carry ammo in CA was interesting, and if true, it adds another reason to why I am grateful I do not live there.

[dverna]

I've seen a few threads over the years in which people say carrying reloads in your CCW pistol is a horrible idea because they are unreliable and a prosecuting attorney will use it against you.

I carry reloads in my woods carry pistols...

I have been using either Federal Hydra-Shoks or Hornady Critical Defense in my CCW pistols since I started carrying.

I have never gone to the range and shot a full session at varying distances with that ammo (except 10mm Hydra Shoks since it was free and I think it is worthless).

I have never been able to afford to blast 100 rounds of expensive carry ammo at a time. That's $100 or more worth of .40 S&W Critical Defense ammo. It has bugged me for years that I was not practicing with the same ammo that I would potentially use to save my life.

So I decided to start loading and shooting full-power loads with Speer Gold Dot or Hornady XTP bullets. That's still $25 and change for a 100-round range session, but that's a lot easier to swallow.

I loaded up some .40 S&W with the 165gr Gold Dot and 7gr of Silhouette powder. That's not a max charge, which is 7.2gr, and the bullet doesn't have a scary name. I don't see how an over zealous prosecuting attorney could accuse me of "looking for trouble" or having a "Death Wish vigilante mentality" if I ever have to defend my life and my self-defense reloads are in the pistol.

I will now be able to be completely familiar with recoil, point of impact, accuracy, and shootability of the ammo I could potentially use to save my life or the lives of others.

Anyone else use their own reloads for carry ammo?

When I was working, I used factory ammunition and still have a good supply stock piled so I will continue to use it. I would practice with reloads that had the same POI. I will never run out of factory ammunition for SD as I do not practice with it. So carrying reloads will not likely happen. But if it does, I will not buy factory SD ammunition again. I will likely not use cast bullets but whatever is the best factory bullet for the caliber at the time.

The argument by Ayoob is really stretching things AFAIC. If your reloads are loaded with factory bullets to the same velocity as factory ammunition, how can they be perceived as "killer reloads"? Doing something like loading "devastator" bullets or other weird bullets could open the door but I see no need to deviate from factory bullets to increase performance of SD bullets.

[megasupermagnum]

After doing a little research on the Daniel Bias case, my take away is to talk to nobody besides a lawyer. His story didn't make sense. If anything this was a way of playing dumb.

As far as GSR, how is that any different than loading with different kinds of factory ammo, say alternating two different loads. One shot would be a no brainer, but 2+ how could you know which one hit the attacker? Maybe if the bullet was recovered.

[Whiterabbit]

handloads vs factory. I didn;t read the cases, but what I would keep in mind is that not only does the case have to be based on the handloads used, but that a more favorable ruling would have been achieved had that individual used factory.

If we cannot definitively say that, then it was meaningless in the case.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Even if you carried home made exotic ammo, if the attacker has threatened you or someone else, has the capability to carry out that threat, and you don't escalate the situation, you should be golden. I've seen that situation Ayoob mentioned; if someone who's suicidal has a weapon, you might want to not let them have one as they're close to a prohibited person? That's not the same at all as a self-defense situation, really. That's being involved in an attempted suicide, really a different kettle of fish altogether, isn't it?

[Idaho45guy]

Another thing that I DO think is sage advice is to resist the temptation to put logos or inscriptions on your firearms that may be interpreted incorrectly by a jury.

If you are carrying around a pistol for self-defense that it adorned with the logo associated with a TV vigilante killer, then you might be a few crayons short of a full box...

229296

Crown inscriptions are also a bad idea...

229297

And this guy is just asking for a jury to throw him in jail no matter how justified his shooting may be...

229298

[John Ross]

Mr Sheesh, the relevance of the Bias case is if the prosecutor tries to raise the issue that you were far enough away from your attacker when you were threatened that you should have exited the area instead of using deadly force, the forensic people will not be able corroborate your story based on GSR if you were shooting something other than ammo made by a major manufacturer.

However, the Bias case shows me that .38 Special +P factory ammo leaves detectable GSR from 50" away, so any handload I use in a much larger caliber is going to leave GSR at a longer distance than that.

I don't know what distance is required for magnum handgun factory ammo to leave no GSR on the shootee, but that's the potential concern--that the prosecutor will say you should have run away, and forensics will be unable to determine how far away you were.

For the reasons I listed, I'm not worried at all about that.

[Whiterabbit]

What is GSR? Gun Shot....R?

[dverna]

What is GSR? Gun Shot....R?

Gun Shot Residue

[dragon813gt]

Another thing that I DO think is sage advice is to resist the temptation to put logos or inscriptions on your firearms that may be interpreted incorrectly by a jury.


A LEO was found not guilty in AZ for shooting someone and he had an inscription on the dust cover of his AR. While I agree about not putting it on the gun. There is no way to know how a jury will react. They may look fondly upon it because they associate w/ it.

I guess a jury could find the dust covers on my ARs offensive. It has the second amendment etched on it. I guess that makes me a far right deplorable gun crazy conservative in someone’s eyes.

[megasupermagnum]

I think the 2nd amendment, or someones name is a long ways from having skulls, punisher, or something stupid like "itchy" engraved on your trigger. Better yet, wear T shirts that say "I don't call 911".

[Whiterabbit]

More like being a LEO saved the day.

Didn;t prevent the media from having a field day with it.

Media WONT have a field day with a reloader.

[Mr_Sheesh]

John Ross - You may not know, I'm older & disabled, the option of outrunning someone else is just plain NOT present... It helps that I'm a big guy, but that won't stop some pests. Sadly. Fortunately - I don't have anyone in my life that would be categorized as suicidal; And if a would be attacker has implicitly or explicitly threatened myself or someone else serious bodily harm, has the capability to carry out that harm, and I don't escalate the situation, I'm (AFAIK) pretty well covered here. Just plain use GOOD JUDGEMENT!

There was a case I am aware of where a passing motorist saw a state trooper get shot, and, as the attacker walked over to the trooper, and lined up to shoot him in the head at close range, shot the attacker with his deer rifle; And was of course not prosecuted, but rather lauded for saving the officers' life. No gunshot residue there, nor would there be if a would be attacker was 30 yards from me with a pistol and aiming it at me. One very unusual odd situation is not the entire universe of self-defense; And learn from the people who'll tell you, if you pay attention at all, to not talk to the police before you have your attorney present, and all should be well. "I'm sorry, officer, I have heard of too many cases where someone used a few wrong words and was harmed for it, I really want to help you but need to wait for my attorney" is pretty darn reasonable, with the way the world is right now.

(I know of a criminal case where an officer was caught lying about what a suspect said to them, he just wanted to nail the guy for that crime, even if he hadn't done it; If they hadn't talked to the officer at all, it would have saved him no end of trouble, and removed the temptation for the officer to lie.)

Guy I know had "Kill them all, let God sort them out" engraved on his AR; I sorta migrated away from him, due to his sterling exhibition of such good judgement. Just ... -facepalm-

I'd engrave the 2nd Amendment or "AR 15" or "Target shooting is fun!" on mine, but nothing that'd look vigilante-like, just a bad idea, that.

Also - On my budget, about all I can afford is my handloads, so if asked I'd honestly say "I shoot what I can afford, they are decent but not hot loads, loaded for good accuracy."

[jmort]

The case Ayboob relies on is a guy who murdered his girlfriend.
He said she comitted suicide.
The judge would not allow evidence in about the reloaded ammunition as no foundation could be made, in the judge's opinion, as to exactly how much powder was in the reload.
Again, I think the judge was wrong as the other 4 or 5 bullets could have been deconstructed to determine the charge weight. I that that is probabtive.
And once again, I think the judge was wrong, but it had nothing to do with self defense. It was a murder. Do not murder your girlfriend.

[dragon813gt]

More like being a LEO saved the day.

That’s a major understatement. The video clearly shows how it all went down. I have no clue how they acquitted him. But I wasn’t on jury and didn’t see all the evidence that was presented. His lawyer dig him out of a major hole.

[Dieselhorses]

Dieselhorses, I'd rather be acquitted by 12 than carried by six....

More appropriately said.

[Tim357]

Actually, TSA requires packaging specifically designed to transport small quantities of ammo. MTM plastic boxes are perfect. They don't care what is packed in them as long as they aren't tracer or incindiary ammo. The idea is no bulk ammo or loaded magazines.




l have been shooting IHMSA silhouettes since the 70s.. l have shot quite a bit of factory ammo over the years. Most of the time to get Federal Brass, which l prefer. Except in the very early years, l cant remember shooting factory ammo that shot better than MY AMMO..
For years l had a factory box of 270 Winchester 130 gr SP on my bench with a couple rds where the bullets were seated BASE UP..
Me thinks it may be possible some gun writers might be biased against hand loads because they may get free ammo/money or BOTH from sponsors.
0nly situation where hand loads are not allowed is air travel.. TSA states that ammunition MUST be in factory cartons...
The ammo in my CWP 38spcl is loaded/tested/inspected by ME.. Anyone else is uncceptable

[Rodfac]

I practice with my own cast bullets, but carry with store bought jacketed ones...the same ones carried by our local police. Mas Ayoob's articles on carry ammunition convinced me that was the way to go. I shoot enough of the carry loads to ensure gun/ammo compatibility, then practice with ACWW's. You may see it differently, but that's your choice. Rod

[Catshooter]

ONE case since 1989? Oh yawn . . .


Cat

[sw282]

Actually, TSA requires packaging specifically designed to transport small quantities of ammo. MTM plastic boxes are perfect. They don't care what is packed in them as long as they aren't tracer or incindiary ammo. The idea is no bulk ammo or loaded magazines.

l have to disagree TIM... l Hunt and FLY with MY gun... TSA told me 'No Handloads', 'Factory Boxes ONLY'..

Been doing this even before 9/11... Latest hunt New Mexico June 2018---282

[am44mag]

And that would be Massad Ayoob. I’m mentioning his name so others can read his writings and make their own decisions.

I feel he MIGHT have a point in some liberal hell hole like California or New York, but then again they're probably going to try to nail your *** to the wall regardless. Once you cross those borders back into America, I feel it's no longer an issue. There's never been a precedence or even an argument made in court regarding reloads being used in self defense to my knowledge.

I use reloads in both my carry guns. Neither is outrageous. The ballistics are close to factory ballistics. Just cheaper to shoot and more accurate.

[Ed K]

1. Get rid of your press because a search of your residence will bring to light that your factory loads purchased at great expense for CCW are "reloads"!

2. Purchase CCW ammo brand that has maximum GSR range - better yet, start your own ammo company with the selling point that your ammo provides GSR at greatest range of any ammo on the market therefore highest probability of a "good shoot".

[FergusonTO35]

Carry what you are comfortable and confident with, simple as that. For me it's reloads, but if it's factory for you then roll with it.

[EMC45]

Often times I have carried my S&W I and J frame .32 S&W-L revolvers concealed. There aren't many affordable options for defense ammo in that caliber. I carried RCBS 32-098s over Bullseye powder in them. I also had a couple loaded TUFF Products speed strips in the pocket for reloads as well.

The above mentioned ammo is pretty mild, but very accurate. I had no concerns for it's ability to get me out of trouble if need be.

[jmort]

Well, every time this dead horse is raised, and it is tedious, I bring up People v Fish. Mr. Fish was convicted in a self-defense case involving factory ammunition. Evidence was allowed in an Arizona court regading his too "powerful" 10mm, his firearms training, and the fact that that he had a lot of guns and ammunition. While the trial court judgement was overturned on appeal, we know that carrying a 10mm, getting firearms traing, using factory ammunition, having lots of guns and ammunition, can get you convicted. There is nothing to stop a judge from admitting all of that evidence against you. So powerful factory ammunition can, as a matter of fact, get you in trouble. If you are limp-wristed, use exactly what the LEOs in your jurisdiction use. Otherwise, use common sense, and make it a good shoot. A good shoot trumps everything. Ayboob must know this.

[poppy42]

Ok i’ve already expressed my opinion on this matter in an earlier post but I would like to pose the question hypothetical so it may be. Bear with me now as I’m not a professional writer and hopefully I can wake this wording so that everyone understands what I’m saying. If the argument against caring handloads is that a prosecutor can argue the fact that these rounds are loaded with the intent to kill as opposed to eliminating the threat . Can The prosecutor not apply the same argument when someone purchases self defense specific ammunition such as Critical Defense or some other SD specificthat ammunition? Ammunition that according to manufactures create a larger wound cavity, better expansion, more tissue damage, etc. if that is the case shouldn’t we be carrying the least powerful ammunition we can find? Maybe rubber bullets or beanbags? Now let me reiterate I am no way believe this to be the case in these are strictly hypothetical questions. As I said before I have and will continue to carry my hand loads for self-defense. In a justified self defense scenario no one is going to convince me that I will have charges brought against me solely because of the fact that I used my hand loads as opposed to say or today’s critical defense ammunition. If the use of deadly force is deemed justified that’s exactly what it means it’s justified. It doesn’t matter as someone said in an earlier post whether it’s a rock, a knife, stick or a baseball bat . If the Law is followed, and the use of deadly force is applied to eliminate the threat and not to kill it isn’t going to matter. To me that’s just a common sense approach . Now that doesn’t mean you’re not gonna get in trouble for using some high-powered handload to take somebody out at 100 yards that’s running away or if you hit someone once with a baseball and knock him out because he is threatening you with a knife and then proceed to beat him to death after he’s already been knocked out. To me it’s the same thing.

Well hopefully I got my point across and it makes sense to everyone else . In closing I just like to say use what you’re comfortable with if you have doubts don’t use a hand loads the person has to do what they think is the right thing

[toallmy]

That's along the way I think poppy 42 , if I need to shoot something it's going to be what I always have in my handgun , so I suppose it's going to be cast target loads .

[John Ross]

Poppy, every competent CCW instructor will tell you that a "good shoot" is when you are in reasonable fear for your life, you shoot, and you stop shooting when the attacker is no longer a threat.

If a guy threatens you with a contact weapon such as a knife at under 20 feet, and you shoot him and he falls to the ground and you keep shooting him when he's lying on the ground ten feet away from you, that's not good.

Any discussion of "how powerful your gun or ammo" was should immediately be countered by your lawyer, who will point out that the purpose of defensive shooting is not to kill the attacker, but to incapacitate him and thus end the threat to your life as quickly as possible. Before we had so many women police officers, the police weapon of choice, if available, was the 12 gauge with buckshot.

No CCW handgun on earth, not even my beloved .500, is as good at immediately incapacitating someone at close range as twelve .30 caliber projectiles all hitting his chest at the same time.

If a jury buys into the argument that "you must be a bloodthirsty killer because you carried a 10mm" (or XYZ Defense ammo, or whatever), then either you had a completely incompetent lawyer, or there's something else going on.

[Tim357]

Well Sir, your TSA must get different training than the Phx metromess ones do. I've never had anyone question my ammo. All they wanted was empty gun and seperate ammo boxes. No mention of handloads or not. MTM ammo boxes were acceptable.
l have to disagree TIM... l Hunt and FLY with MY gun... TSA told me 'No Handloads', 'Factory Boxes ONLY'..

Been doing this even before 9/11... Latest hunt New Mexico June 2018---282

[John Ross]

MS, those are all arguments that can easily be shown to be nonsense. All your lawyer needs to do is put on a reenactment video of the 1986 Miami shootout where six FBI agents got their clocks cleaned by two bank robbers that they were looking for and had identified in advance before any shooting started.

[FergusonTO35]

Often times I have carried my S&W I and J frame .32 S&W-L revolvers concealed. There aren't many affordable options for defense ammo in that caliber. I carried RCBS 32-098s over Bullseye powder in them. I also had a couple loaded TUFF Products speed strips in the pocket for reloads as well.

The above mentioned ammo is pretty mild, but very accurate. I had no concerns for it's ability to get me out of trouble if need be.

I like your thinking. Not to mention the fact that, there really aren't any factory defensive loads for the .32 S&W Long outside of boutique makes such as Buffalo Bore. 99% of the time I am carrying a small .380 or snub .38. Yes, defensive ammo is common for those cartridges but I still carry reloads. Why? First of all, I don't see the need or usefulness of expanding bullets in these cartridges, at least not without nasty recoil. The .380 Auto is a low sectional density boolit, expansion is going to limit penetration quite a bit. Every test I have ever seen indicates that you really need 800 fps to get any kind of expansion out of the .38 Special, 850 fps is better unless you use a lightweight, low SD boolit as in the .380. I am honest in admitting I can't shoot a snubnose with full horsepower ammo and alot of other folks can't either.

My loads are a Lee 356-100-2R at 875 fps in the .380 and a Lyman 358091 at 712 fps in the .38. Like EMC45's .32's, they are accurate,easy to shoot, and give me the best possible option of defending myself with a small gun that I can always have with me.

[LAH]

I have two 9s with factory stuff for house loads but the LCP in my pocket has my loads.

[mjwcaster]

Not surprised at different experiences regarding flying with firearms/ammo.
I have heard all sorts of stories of incompetence.
I always suggest being prepared to educate, carry copies of relevant regulations.
Just another reason I drive instead of fly as much as possible.

No mention of factory only ammo in the relevant regs, just boxed/secured.

Don’t forget every airline has their own policies on amounts and another level of incompetence.
————

https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transporting-firearms-and-ammunition

Firearm magazines and ammunition clips, whether loaded or empty, must be securely boxed or included within a hard-sided case containing an unloaded firearm. Read the requirements governing the transport of ammunition in checked baggage as defined by 49 CFR 175.10 (a)(8).


(8) Small arms ammunition for personal use carried by a crewmember or passenger in checked baggage only, if securely packed in boxes or other packagings specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition. Ammunition clips and magazines must also be securely boxed. This paragraph does not apply to persons traveling under the provisions of 49 CFR 1544.219






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[FergusonTO35]

I printed out both the TSA regs and airline policies just in case I needed them. Fortunately, every airline employee I encountered was familiar with the routine and gave me no problems. From what I understand, if you declare a firearm there is an excellent chance they won't give your bag any more scrutiny than any other piece of luggage.

[Dieselhorses]

All my ammo is "factory" whether cast or not. powder coated or lubed. My cases, primers, powder, and yes, even my lead was made at a wheel weight factory! Seriously though, it's a matter of preference. Factory or home made, there's enough liberal, chauvinistic prosecutors whose interest is only in prosecuting (that's if, you do indeed get charged).

[ericandelaine1975]

I couldn't get this to post to this discussion but here's something from youtube you can look up. Its very informative. It was posted in another group I'm in on the same subject.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181030/1fec4aa2ed23c5d15f849f86f761d17d.jpg

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[JBinMN]

I couldn't get this to post to this discussion but here's something from youtube you can look up. Its very informative. It was posted in another group I'm in on the same subject.

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I put the corrected link to the video you were trying to share in your quoted post above, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmYbV_7xGL4

ETA: For those who just want this guys take on Ammunition, he begins talking about it at the 5:30 mark or so.

[ericandelaine1975]

Thanks.

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[JBinMN]

Thanks.

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You are Welcome!
:)

Good video that is along the lines of this topic. Even though he is in Ohio, his "take" could be applicable all over & I thought it worth the watch anyway.
:)

[ericandelaine1975]

Yes. I'm in North Carolina and thought the same thing.

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[dragon813gt]

Interesting video. What I took out if it was “don’t do X because it makes my job harder”. Which is completely understandable since he’s a lawyer. You never know how a jury is going to respond. Just because a gun is pink doesn’t mean they will see it as a bad thing. Some may find a black gun more “evil”.

Basically what everyone should do is minimize their risks. This will make defending you in a court of law easier.

[ericandelaine1975]

Interesting video. What I took out if it was “don’t do X because it makes my job harder”. Which is completely understandable since he’s a lawyer. You never know how a jury is going to respond. Just because a gun is pink doesn’t mean they will see it as a bad thing. Some may find a black gun more “evil”.

Basically what everyone should do is minimize their risks. This will make defending you in a court of law easier.Exactly

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[smkummer]

My reloaded 38 special and 380 acp, gets shot and reloaded, a lot. Which means my carry ammo gets into the cycle. Which means my carry ammo doesn’t get old. In fact when I shoot what was in the gun and the extras carried with it, I draw and fire it like it was an emergency situation. It has always worked. FWIW, my 380 mustang is carried with Hornady nickel cases and Hornady 90 xtp bullets. It looks factory but loaded with Win 231 powder that pushes that bullet close to 1000 FPS. If I use my gun in a self defense situation, I am more concerned that my gun functions and performs.

[Art in Colorado]

Many years ago in Sheriff Jim Wilson's column he brought this up and in his LEO position never heard of hand loads being a problem in the courts. He asked to be informed if any one heard of this and never did. Good enough for me.

[Texas by God]

Many years ago in Sheriff Jim Wilson's column he brought this up and in his LEO position never heard of hand loads being a problem in the courts. He asked to be informed if any one heard of this and never did. Good enough for me.Yeah, me too. I figure he knows better than the majority of us. BUT I use Hornady Critical Defense ammo to carry based on my own wet paper and water bucket testing. I would have no qualms about carrying certain reloads- but I don't have to.

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[FergusonTO35]

My carry ammo is all loaded with clean cases of the same brand. Unless you are a reloader yourself and know what to look for, they look factory. On the other hand, some folks will carry factory ammo of several different types and vintages in the same magazine because it's what they have on hand.

[Harry O]

The only thing that people here should be looking at is the DA in their jurisdiction. If the DA is a pr*ck, he will bend the law to nail you, regardless of what kind of ammunition you are carrying, what kind of gun you have, and what stickers are on it. If the DA is anti-gunowner (like the one we have is), you will be ground into dust by the DA regardless of the details of the shooting. Pay attention to the local news stories and decide if your DA is a reasonable person or if he makes a habit of stretching the law. If he stretches the law, you will be in for a hard time.

My son was the target of a DA that overreached (no, it did not have anything to do with a shooting). It cost a LOT of money to fight him. Remember that the DA has virtually unlimited resources. I doubt if most of the people here have unlimited resources. I know I don't. So fighting will cost you a lot of your future. Anyway, the Judge eventually threw his case out of court before trial. He said (thanks to the experts we hired) that the DA did not have enough evidence to prove his case. So, the DA shopped around for a different Judge that was coming up for a retention election and tried again. After a lot more money, the new Judge threw the case out of court again. The DA decided not to prosecute again but made the point to us that if he got any new evidence, he could and would file again. That was about 15 years ago.

I carry handloads. It doesn't matter. If I ever have to shoot someone, I will be spending my kids inheritance in court regardless of what happened.

[Idaho45guy]

The only thing that people here should be looking at is the DA in their jurisdiction. If the DA is a pr*ck, he will bend the law to nail you, regardless of what kind of ammunition you are carrying, what kind of gun you have, and what stickers are on it. If the DA is anti-gunowner (like the one we have is), you will be ground into dust by the DA regardless of the details of the shooting. Pay attention to the local news stories and decide if your DA is a reasonable person or if he makes a habit of stretching the law. If he stretches the law, you will be in for a hard time.

My son was the target of a DA that overreached (no, it did not have anything to do with a shooting). It cost a LOT of money to fight him. Remember that the DA has virtually unlimited resources. I doubt if most of the people here have unlimited resources. I know I don't. So fighting will cost you a lot of your future. Anyway, the Judge eventually threw his case out of court before trial. He said (thanks to the experts we hired) that the DA did not have enough evidence to prove his case. So, the DA shopped around for a different Judge that was coming up for a retention election and tried again. After a lot more money, the new Judge threw the case out of court again. The DA decided not to prosecute again but made the point to us that if he got any new evidence, he could and would file again. That was about 15 years ago.

I carry handloads. It doesn't matter. If I ever have to shoot someone, I will be spending my kids inheritance in court regardless of what happened.

I grew up here in the Northwest as the son of a cop. My brother and I both went into law enforcement. He stuck with it and is now a detective. I'm in corporate security.

My brother is now married to a lawyer who worked for the prosecuting attorney.

We are a very pro law and order family which has grown up hunting and shooting for decades and viewing law enforcement officials as friends.

I made the mistake of moving to the midwest in the 90's. Screwed up even further by meeting and marrying a redhead who was also an only child of strict fundamentalist Christians.

Anyway, we settled down in the heart of Iowa for a few years and that was the first time I encountered corrupt law enforcement. First time I had heard gun shots in town, and first time I had to draw my weapon in defense of others.

I learned that Iowa is the source of Fudds; people out there generally like shotguns for bird hunting and muzzleloaders for deer hunting, but beyond that don't get the gun culture and distrust outsiders who carry concealed.

I had my family surrounded in an A&W restaurant by 6 cops because some mouth-breathing idiot reported that I was carrying a pistol. Yes I was, while dressed in slacks, polo shirt, and eating with my wife, mother-in-law, and 2 small children.

It was completely uncalled for and a total overreaction.

So yes, you have to know the environment in which you are carrying. In my area, people generally have common sense and local law enforcement is not feared.

Out in Iowa and that area, I sure as hell wouldn't push my luck. Wear a John Deere hat and keep your pistol hidden...

[EMC45]

Can't stand Fudds

[9.3X62AL]

I carry factory WWB 40 S&W JHP 180 grain and factory WWB 45 ACP JHP in my carry arms. These have been my old agency's issue duty ammo for 20+ years, and has been highly effective in all respects for that entire time. The WWB JHP ammo is identical in all performance parameters to the Win Black Talon and Ranger SXT loads that we all know and love. This is affordable carry ammo that does the job without drama and nonsense.

I reload ammo to duplicate the ballistics of my carry loads closely for the purposes of practice and recreation. The Lee TC pistol castings (175 grain in 40 cal, 230 grain in 45 cal) do great work in this venue and are uber-cheap to assemble. That such an advisement needs making on a reloading and casting hobby site is surprising.

[Dieselhorses]

The only thing that people here should be looking at is the DA in their jurisdiction. If the DA is a pr*ck, he will bend the law to nail you, regardless of what kind of ammunition you are carrying, what kind of gun you have, and what stickers are on it. If the DA is anti-gunowner (like the one we have is), you will be ground into dust by the DA regardless of the details of the shooting. Pay attention to the local news stories and decide if your DA is a reasonable person or if he makes a habit of stretching the law. If he stretches the law, you will be in for a hard time.

My son was the target of a DA that overreached (no, it did not have anything to do with a shooting). It cost a LOT of money to fight him. Remember that the DA has virtually unlimited resources. I doubt if most of the people here have unlimited resources. I know I don't. So fighting will cost you a lot of your future. Anyway, the Judge eventually threw his case out of court before trial. He said (thanks to the experts we hired) that the DA did not have enough evidence to prove his case. So, the DA shopped around for a different Judge that was coming up for a retention election and tried again. After a lot more money, the new Judge threw the case out of court again. The DA decided not to prosecute again but made the point to us that if he got any new evidence, he could and would file again. That was about 15 years ago.

I carry handloads. It doesn't matter. If I ever have to shoot someone, I will be spending my kids inheritance in court regardless of what happened.

Maybe I'm just sitting here dreaming or something but my question is why do "DA's" always chase after things that aren't there? When, in the grand scheme of things-a color is clearly "blue" but all they see is "red"? I guess it's for notoriety? Another feather in the hat? Another notch? Is it "guilty until proven innocent"? Or, "innocent until proven guilty"? In all fairness, where is justice? Closest I've ever got to any judges or DA's or ADA's was that I did several construction jobs for them, and of course in my younger days, when a "black cloud" loomed over my head for a few years.

[Harry O]

To be just a little more specific: The DA charged my kid with "felony terrorism" with a possible 20 years to life. I was in the courtroom and heard the first judge tell the DA that he did not have any case for felony terrorism. At best, he had a "third class misdemeanor littering case" ... and he would have to prove that. The DA refused to reduce the charge and the judge threw it out of court. The DA then shopped around and refiled EXACTLY the same charges with the different judge. The DA did now know what we told the first judge, so he was able to change his approach a little, but with some additional work, we were able to counter him the second time, too. How can anyone inflate charges that much?

Here is another case by this DA, although I read about it entirely from the newspapers since I have no connection to anyone involved: The DA fought concealed carry licenses in the legislature for many years. When it was passed anyway, he was pissed. Then, someone called the police about a CCW holder. He evidently saw the gun "print". The CCW holder was arrested and his gun was taken away. The DA charged him with "brandishing a firearm". His "logic": The person arrested had a concealed carry license. Since someone saw it print, it was not concealed. Since the person who saw the print called the cops, he was alarmed. Showing a gun to cause alarm is brandishing. Brandishing is still against the law. He got a conviction. I have mentioned a few times on other threads that where I live we have to make sure our guns are COMPLETELY concealed, not just mostly. This is why.

Unfortunately, DA's like this are usually rewarded by the voting public by being elected to higher office, not sent to jail.

[9.3X62AL]

I have no explanation for cops or prosecutors that step outside the law or outside the facts in order to "create" cases. In the areas I worked, there were real crimes a-plenty for law agencies to choose from, and much of the selection process involved NOT fluffing up facts but more a matter of choosing the most egregious of cases from a host of rascalities. It was triage, not creative writing. I could not work in that fashion, and will not live like that. I have to sleep at night.