F + ff = 1 1/2 f ?

[GregLaROCHE]

I have read that people use 1F, 1 1/2F and 2F. I have 2F and was wondering if I could mix it with 1F to get something similar to 1 1/2 F.

[rancher1913]

interesting question. the "f" rating has to do with the granulation size so mixing 1f and 2f would give you a mixture of granulation's. you can do a speed test by making 3 equal groves in a wood strip and filling them with each of the sizes, the longer the strip the more accurate the test. light all three at the same time and the 2f should burn the fastest and 1f the slowest. if the 1andhalf speed falls in between the others than it should be equal to store bought 1andahalf. I am by no means an expert and the best people to ask hang out on the "making black powder" thread, go there and ask fly or nobade or indian they would know for sure.

[Chill Wills]

I have read that people use 1F, 1 1/2F and 2F. I have 2F and was wondering if I could mix it with 1F to get something similar to 1 1/2 F.

The short answer is NO.
Think about grading powder; wire screens that the powder grains can be segregated by either Pass or Hold. By screening powder, makers segregate grain size which makes all the powder in a grade like 1-1/2F all about the same size.

Mixing 1F and 2F gives the opposite, a wide range of grain size.

If you believe that uniform size helps in achieving accuracy, then it follows some portion of the $$$ you spend on good powder like Swiss is so there are no fines and the powder grain size is very uniform.

Does that make sense?

[Don McDowell]

Nope mixing 1 and 2 f gives you an unknown mess.
Best to spend the money on a guality powder like Olde Eynsford.

[georgerkahn]

I concur 101% with Chill Wills -- to put this mix (or ANY powder mixes) in any firearm would be one of the last things I'd ever think of -- unless, of course, on a deserted island somewheres where that's all I might have -- to use in desperation only! Another analogy is paint mixing -- once you mix any two colors, whatever you end up is what it is -- no going back to the colors which made this new one. Each grade of powder is analogous to a color; when mixed, who knows what the result will be? I can add that, the smaller the powder grain, the quicker it ignites. Why we use FFFF in pans... And, do not ever forget that smokeless is a flammable solid -- black powder, on the other hand IS explosive!
geo
geo

[upnorthwis]

Years ago I had heard that there would be a benefit to loading a "duplex load" with 4F as the kicker under 2F. Tried it. It didn't do anything to gain accuracy for me. You can certainly try it. Being BP it's not likely to blow anything up.

[country gent]

1, 1 1/2, and 2f are different screen sizes to grade. A mixture is just that and may create other problems, the heavier 1 f kernals will flow different from the 2f kernals separating in the measure. I believe buffalo arms has a chart giving kernel size and fines in their powder section that might shed some light on what you want.

I use 1, 11/2,and 2f in loads depending on caliber and load. I simply buy a mixed case of powder when I order. I may get 10 lbs 1 1/2f, 6 lbs 2f, and 9lbs 1f. for a 25lb case. Most still give the price break on a mixed case too.

[indian joe]

interesting question. the "f" rating has to do with the granulation size so mixing 1f and 2f would give you a mixture of granulation's. you can do a speed test by making 3 equal groves in a wood strip and filling them with each of the sizes, the longer the strip the more accurate the test. light all three at the same time and the 2f should burn the fastest and 1f the slowest. if the 1andhalf speed falls in between the others than it should be equal to store bought 1andahalf. I am by no means an expert and the best people to ask hang out on the "making black powder" thread, go there and ask fly or nobade or indian they would know for sure.

Chill Will says "short answer is NO" -- long answer is also NO

If you mix FF and FFF you will get something close to 4FA which is a bulk fireworks grade blackpowder usually supplied to the pyro manufacturers. Same powder /same ingredients (out of most powder plants anyway) just our rifle powder is more evenly graded.

Evenness of kernel size is important for accuracy because it gets us more consistent burn rate and lower shot to shot velocity variation - none of which matters much in a 50 yard match but if you play the long range game its real important.

If you screened the various powder makers product you proly find they are all over the place as far as what size they each call FFF, FF etc - but within the can and batch of Swiss FF - GoEx FFF etc, you should find nice even kernel size - (I think some of em fudge the screen size a bit to get the burn rate they want) -- Even kernel size and consistent burn rate is key .

[labradigger1]

I stick to established load data 99% of the time but I do have a question. If black powder is compressed in a load how much would grain size matter?

[Chill Wills]

I stick to established load data 99% of the time but I do have a question. If black powder is compressed in a load how much would grain size matter?

Exactly.
Almost all my very accurate BP loads used zero compression.
The very few exceptions, 0.025 to 0.075" compression which does not crush the grains much.
I'd guess some of the highly compressed loads I hear about are basically a solid rocket booster :p
:kidding:

[indian joe]

I stick to established load data 99% of the time but I do have a question. If black powder is compressed in a load how much would grain size matter?

It will crush in a little short case like 44/40 but in longer / larger cases even with heavy compression what you find is the grain structure down at the primer end is pretty much intact - near the boolit it squashes grains.

When we talk about heavy compression is it distance the plunger travels? OR actual pressure?

Talk is Swiss likes less compression but its a more dense powder as it sits in the can - makes sense to me that less plunger travel on Swiss would (or could) equate to the same amount of pressure in the powder column - we could measure that roughly with a scale on the press handle - that might be interesting?

[Springfield]

It's not going to be more accurate, probably, but it sure woudn't blow up your gun. It's not like mixing smokeless powder. Like was said above, most powders are a slight mix of different grades anyway, the kernels are not all exactly the same, just very close.

[Lead pot]

Here is a heavy compressed triplex load :)

229313

That is what a heavy compressed load of 1.5F Goes express looks like.

[indian joe]

Here is a heavy compressed triplex load :)

229313

That is what a heavy compressed load of 1.5F Goes express looks like.

So do ya think your picture supports what I wrote? ""in longer / larger cases even with heavy compression what you find is the grain structure down at the primer end is pretty much intact - near the boolit it squashes grains.""

[Lead pot]

Those compressions are of the large capacity mid length case .50-2.5(90) yes the break up of granolas start in front (under the bullet) and it starts at .050"
The photo below is from .050", .100",.200"and the first photo is .300",.400" and .500"

229324

[John Boy]

It would be close mixing the 2 grades but you would have more 20 mesh and less 30 mesh


KIK Fg (Lot 3910)
12 Mesh – Trace
14 Mesh - Trace
20 Mesh – 99.9%
30 Mesh – Trace

KIK 1.5Fg (Lot 3910)
12- Mesh - Trace
14 Mesh - Trace
20 Mesh – 95.87%
30 mesh – 4.13%
40 mesh – Trace

KIK FFg (Lot 2004)
12 Mesh - 01 % Hold
14 Mesh - 03 % Hold
20 Mesh - 82 % Hold
30 Mesh - 14 % Hold
40 Mesh - Trace

[indian joe]

Those compressions are of the large capacity mid length case .50-2.5(90) yes the break up of granolas start in front (under the bullet) and it starts at .050"
The photo below is from .050", .100",.200"and the first photo is .300",.400" and .500"

229324

LP - maybe you can comment on some of this ?

How to measure compression ? By depth of plunger? or compression pressure ?

The only commercial powder I have for comparison is 5FA goex from last century (1990's)
a 45/70 case brimful is 79 grains my "other" powder is 72 grains

I load 63 grains of that 5FA in my 45/70, its reasonable solid compression but the plunger dont move very far -- so

with powder in (via drop tube) and a 60 thou wad just snug on the powder its .450 from case neck to wad - then compressed (heavy) enough to seat a 535postell the wad is .580 deep and that took 50 pounds effort on the press handle (.130compression depth)

With my homebrew FFg - 63 grains drop tubed and wad seated same its only .360 case neck to wad - compressed to .580 - same depth as the 5FA still takes 50 pound on the press handle (but is .220 compression depth)

Do you get where I am going with this? that Goex is more dense to start with but squash them both into the same volume in the case and although the volume of compression is more for the homemade the compressed density ends up the same and took the same amount of pressure effort to get there.

Is this why Swiss doesnt like as much compression as other powders ? its more dense to start with .

I used a small turret press that does not have much leverage for my test - the big press with its compound leverage would not give the same reaction on the handle end - I also usually use a 25 thou juice box wad in this load instead of the 60 thou card wad so my working compression in less than tested here.

[indian joe]

It would be close mixing the 2 grades but you would have more 20 mesh and less 30 mesh


KIK Fg (Lot 3910)
12 Mesh – Trace
14 Mesh - Trace
20 Mesh – 99.9%
30 Mesh – Trace

KIK 1.5Fg (Lot 3910)
12- Mesh - Trace
14 Mesh - Trace
20 Mesh – 95.87%
30 mesh – 4.13%
40 mesh – Trace

KIK FFg (Lot 2004)
12 Mesh - 01 % Hold
14 Mesh - 03 % Hold
20 Mesh - 82 % Hold
30 Mesh - 14 % Hold
40 Mesh - Trace

John
Looks to me like these people are creeping the grades some - (Swiss and Wano do too from my onbservation)
Most places I look the mesh sizes are different than your test
Fg 12 to 16
FFG 16 - 30
FFFG 20 -50
FFFFg 40 -100
Not that it matters any but their Fg and 1.5FG is really FFg and the FFg is really FFg with some FFFg blended in it.
I have some old GoEx Fg here and it grades correct at 12 to 16 mesh.

We see this creep of specs in the auto industry too, every model upgrade the small car gets a little bigger to beat the opposition until it turns into a mid size and they have to bring in a complete new badge small car to fill the space they very diligently vacated - called marketing I think!!!

[John Boy]

Joe, your post is so true. Look what Goex did to Olde E 1.5Fg to run the velocity up ...
Swiss 1.5 (250.205)
12 mesh – 0.27% retained
14 mesh – 5.24% retained
20 mesh - 92.59% retained
30 mesh - 0.10% retained
Through - 0.72%

Olde E' 1.5Fg:
20 mesh - 98.163% Hold
30 mesh - 0.612% Hold
40 mesh - 0.000%
50 mesh - 1.224% Hold
60 mesh - Trace
80 mesh - Trace Passed

[country gent]

I measure compression from top of powder with wad to case mouth with wad lightly hand seated then from case mouth to compressed difference is the amount of compression.

[indian joe]

I measure compression from top of powder with wad to case mouth with wad lightly hand seated then from case mouth to compressed difference is the amount of compression.

Thats what I would expect as normal process - the point I was trying to make in my post to Leadpot is that powders with different poured density (Swiss as compared to plain GoEx fr instance) will be getting different amount of actual compression with the same amount of plunger travel - that is what happened with my small comparison.
If we use a press with compound leverage its very hard to feel the difference when we do it.

[indian joe]

Joe, your post is so true. Look what Goex did to Olde E 1.5Fg to run the velocity up ...
Swiss 1.5 (250.205)
12 mesh – 0.27% retained
14 mesh – 5.24% retained
20 mesh - 92.59% retained
30 mesh - 0.10% retained
Through - 0.72%

Olde E' 1.5Fg:
20 mesh - 98.163% Hold
30 mesh - 0.612% Hold
40 mesh - 0.000%
50 mesh - 1.224% Hold
60 mesh - Trace
80 mesh - Trace Passed

John
The OE is straight FFg according to all the stuff I can find and really the Swiss is a little less tidy, mostly FFG with some FG admixture.
All else being equal the OE should be the better bet
I grade my own powder very strictly (shake the c..p out of it) my process would not pay in industry but it gets nice even powder
Fg = 12-16
FFG = 16-20
FFFg= 20-40
FFFFg = 40-100
If we need more FF then I move the goalpost a little between that and FFF
Also used the same screens and process when we used to source 4FA in bulk

[Lead pot]

CG gave as good of a answer as any. compression is what it is.
I have no set amount of compression for any of my loads or powder. I do what I call a ladder load. I start with zero compression and increase the powder load one grain per three rounds fired of each or just two rounds at times. When I see the group at it's best that is the amount of compression for that powder or bullet.
Swiss most use very little or no compression but I find two different amounts of compression that works with Swiss and other brands. There is no one rule that works well for all calibers/bullets/primers/and so on. You have to spend a little or a lot of time behind the butt plate to get the best and it's not just a finding a good load but also developing your skill and this means a lot of time behind the butt plate.

Kurt

[indian joe]

You have to spend a little or a lot of time behind the butt plate to get the best and it's not just a finding a good load but also developing your skill and this means a lot of time behind the butt plate.

Kurt

That last bit is the kicker - I have yet to arrive at the place where I am shooting as good as the gun or the load:bigsmyl2:
Used to do ok with muzzle loaders and I always believed there is a pretty strong connection between amount of powder burnt and results on the target.
Have to say hanging out here the last year has probably halved my group size with a couple of guns I like to shoot.

[GONRA]

".... big press with its compound leverage would not give the same reaction on the handle end..."

indian joe - GONRA put a Looong Handle on my Big Lee Press
(used for Range Bass Case Prep with STP Oil Treatment Case Lube)
to deal with these (RELATED) issues.

>>>> Get it: LOOONG HANDLE <<<<

[country gent]

I find when testing / working up loads in the above described manner it is interesting to watch the chronographs numbers especially ES and SD not just velocity. Starting at the no compression no airspace point and working up 2grn at a time the ES and SD numbers start to drop and get more consistant as you step up the compression. Most of my loads run around 12 fps ES for 10 round strings a couple have hit 8 or 9 fps. What gets interesting is after you go by this they will get bigger to a second point where they again become very consistant. Ive never looked for a 3rd point.

I currently weigh charges and drop into cases with a 36" drop tube. This gives a consistant powder stack in the case to start then add the heavy wad and compress the rest of the way with a die. What I have seen is the drop tube tends to do better with the lower part of the charge, when I pour a charge out after just the drop tube the bottom 48" or so is packed in snug enough it need a small screw driver or other tool to break it up to pour out. When compressed the entire charge needs this done. Compression should be consistant thru the charge with the die but due to friction and stacking it may not be.

One other thing to remember is black powder dosnt increase velocity in the same way smokeless does. a 1 grn increase is actually very little velocity increase