Centershot Sabots

[centershot]

Catchy name, yes? No, I'm not starting up a business. And, no, you can't buy them anywhere. But you can make them yourself, after all, that's why we all come here, to exchange ideas, right? Well, yesterday was range day. It was also something else;

FRUITION

Fruition, like when a plan comes together..........I started down this road four years ago. I wanted to be able to handload a shotgun slug that would at least equal the accuracy of rifled slugs from my gun, about 3-1/2" at 50 yards.

Yesterday I shot the group below.
I sat there for five minutes looking through the spotting scope, almost in disbelief, but there they were. Five shots, one jagged hole. Finally I walked downrange to retrieve the target. I had other loads I planned to shoot, but the thought that came to mind was "Patrick, it ain't gonna' get any better than this!" I packed up and went home. And then I loaded up a 25 round box of those loads! Here's the list:

Once fired AA hull (old style)
Win. 209 primer
19.0 grains Red Dot
Federal 12S-3 wad seated with 60 # pressure
Winchester .150" hard card
2" x .5" x .011" paper patch (cut from NRA outdoor smallbore rifle target. The outdoor targets are thicker paper.)
.662" round ball cast of 50% COWW + 50% pure lead
Fold Crimp
1290 fps

The OD of the "sabot" with payload inserted measures .739".

This was from my Mossy 500A, rifled barrel with a Leupold 1-4X shotgun scope mounted.

A deep feeling of satisfaction has settled upon me, and just in time too! Deer season opens November 18! Critters Beware!!!250322250323

[longbow]

Now that is impressive! Great work!

You deserve that feeling of satisfaction that settled on you for sure.

I do like big ol round balls! Good to see some fine accuracy from a wad/ball combo.

Did you recover any wads? I'd like to see what they looked like. Were RB's soft or hard lead... though that likely has little if any effect. Just curious.

Again, great work and thanks for sharing.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Yes sir! Nice job. That nice group also sports the power to put down anything in "the Abyss." Shoot with confidence!

[longbow]

Hah! Once again I should learn to read... ".662" round ball cast of 50% COWW + 50% pure lead" its all right there! Except for the wad question anyway.

I am always curious about wads. At 0.739" that's a pretty large combo so I'd figure those wad petals are getting squished pretty well but since it works they must be holding up.

I am thinking that since round balls have so little bearing area the wad petals must have to deform quite a bit to grip and spin that ball. I wonder if your softer than ACWW alloy helps with a bit of give to the RB as well. Recovered balls should tell that tale if you can find one. If the RB shows rifling marks then the lead is deforming some. I doubt straight wheelweights would deform between plastic and paper but your alloy just may.

You have obviously found the "sweet spot" for fit and the right combination. I have copied your load data for future reference for when I get a rifled gun!

Thank you!

Longbow

[Bob9863]

**** good for a RB, I can't get near that especially with .662 RB, my .690 is going good from the smoothbore but maybe a rifled choke will tighten things up a bit.
Although I dislike the idea of a rifled shotgun as it's no longer a shotgun in my book, but results like that are hard to argue with.
Maybe if we had a shotgun season or similar but it's just so easy to grab a rifle anytime I want to go for a shot.

[centershot]

longbow - I have not recovered any wads but I will zero the scope next trip and will pick some up. I was using ACWW but ran out o them, the 50-50 mix was in the pot (30-30 boolits) so that's what I used. I think the big difference was the increase in diameter as the previous load miked .733" and only grouped 5" @ 60yds. I will say that the 12S-3 wad is a tough wad, plenty strong with thick petals, They mike .028" at the point where the ball's equator makes contact.

Bob9863 - Now that I have the rifled bore running good it's time to get back to the smoothbore. I bought a Lee .690 ball mold based largely on your success with it, it arrived yesterday! I'm thinking a .690 ball in a AA12 wad might do the trick. The AA wad petals are thinner than the 12S-3, running .021" IIRC. We'll see!

And, I agree, it is easy enough to pick up a rifle and go hunt. Having done that for the 10 years that rifles have been legal here I've come to the conclusion that they don't offer me an advantage. In the 48 years that I've hunted deer my average shot has been about 30 yards. Having a rifle hasn't changed that. Shots are close here in NY, for the most part. Actually, I miss having a fast handling shotgun in my hands while on the hunt. Guess I've come full circle!

Hal - Thank you! Yeah, I figure if an ounce of lead @ 1300 fps was good enough for buffalo, it oughta' be good enough for my purposes!

[Bob9863]

I look forward to seeing how you go with the .690, the only two problems that I found was if the wad isn't thin enough it bulges the case a bit and it destroys wads, and unless you either reinforce the base of the shot cup with something hard or as I did use a felt spacer to cushion it then it pretty much goes through the wad or otherwise chews it making from what I saw about 2 out of 5 shots random.
The other thing is run a file over any marks from the casting.

I'm actually thinking about running mine in the tumbler after the file to really smooth them out.

[centershot]

Bob, the problem you noted regarding blowing out the base of the cup is pretty common if you don't reinforce it with a hard card wad. My experience tells me that around 1100 fps is where you start seeing this, so very light loads are probably OK. Even at 1000 fps it is a potent payload! I have used coenmeal successfully in shotcups with ribbed petals such as Remington RP-12's. Due to the tapered ribs the ball causes the wad to expand upon acceleration down the bore, centering it. That worked out OK in my smoothbore but I think there's room for improvement there. To be successful, some type of reinforcement is needed to keep the wad intact. And, a tough wad like the 12S-3 tends to hold up better than some others, in my experience.

[longbow]

cenershot:

I wouldn't discount the 0.662" RB in the smoothbore either. Some of my best round ball groups came from cloth patching the 0.662" RB into hulls with shotcups in them. I used a fairly thin cotton and patched them into the hulls much like loading a muzzleloader. IIRC the cotton compressed to about 0.011" with some squish using a micrometer.Accuracy was very good running 3" to 4" at 50 yards. It is the longer ranges where groups expand exponentially so by 100 yards they tend to be pretty large.

This is why I am happy to see your success with RB in shotcup in rifled gun. I like round balls!

I also like choke friendly slugs so should a slug load ever, for any reason wind up in a choked gun it won't be a concern. I don't care if there is no accuracy, the goal is no damage to gun or shooter. I know this is much like the situation we have with .45-70, .45 LC and a few other cartridges that have spanned from BP to smokeless and strong modern guns are made but many older guns that can only handle BP pressures are still around... keep the ammunition separate! While when under my control that is easy, if I leave this world and there is a pile of slug reloads that someone erroneously puts into a choked gun there could be trouble. Yes, I worry about things like that.

Anyway, an RB in shotcup should be choke safe in any choke except maybe extra full turkey choke. I may just test that with a hot load and 0.678" RB through a full choked gun. By suspicion is that the wad petals will extrude/shear and choke will not be damaged. Conversely I think a full bore hard cast round ball is likely to do some damage. I have an old cheap side by with a bulged barrel that I picked up that may become my test gun for that... just to find out what happens.

Longbow

[centershot]

OK, back to the range today to zero the scope. 38 deg. F, I'm happy to have needed only 8 rounds to get it done! I picked up these wads after I finished, I'm surprised to see the torn petals considering how well this load shoots!

229244229245

The 1st is good, no torn petals. The 2nd & 3rd from left have one petal sheared off. The 4th & 5th have one petal that's torn but attached. I only fired 8 shots to zero, these were the only ones I could find. The gas seals look good, but the wad does appear to have some blow-by on it. The crush section appears to have held up well, as I mentioned previously, the 12S-3 is a stoutly built wad. Overall I am very happy with this load, now to get back to smoothbore testing!

[longbow]

Those don't look as bad as some I've recovered! Especially considering the amount of squish that load produces. Those wads must be tough plastic.

Maybe I'll order some when I reorder components. Thick and tough is a good thing.

Longbow

[Bob9863]

Definitely not as bad as any of my unpadded RB loads, they go through the base of the wad, the padded ones are a bit better then those.

[bikerbeans]

Centershot,

I use the 12s3 wads with 69 cal RBs (hardball alloy) over 23g of unique. Two 0.125" 20ga NC under the ball. Old win trap hulls that are roll crimped w/o a OS card. The wads i have picked up are much worse than yours but i can consistently shoot 1/2 minute of pie plate at 50 yards. I shoot off hand an old 32" 12ga Mercury SxS marked full/full. Neither barrel is full choke, closer to modified, maybe barrel erosion?

BB

[centershot]

BB, thanks for that info! If you're loading a .690" RB in a 12S-3 and running it through a tight choke w/o problems I won't worry about using a cylinder or IC choke. Thanks brother!

[fastdadio]

Here's my 20ga. RB load.
.575" round ball > 28ga nitro wad, > 28ga card wad, > BPI Commander wad #020TC20, > 28ga card, > 20ga nitro wad, Remington hull.
Loaded with BR-5 and CCI 209m primer.
Shooting a Weatherby PA459 smooth bore with a Carlesons rifled choke. It's holding 3" raggety holes @35 yds. I haven't taken them out to 50 yds yet.
315876

[centershot]

Hey fastdadio, nice shootin'! Stretch that one out to 50 and then 100, let's see what it'll do!