Bullets in a fire

[abunaitoo]

Saw it on TV once. Guy got wounded by a round going off in a fire.
Could that really happen????
I would think the case would blow before the bullet is expelled.
Has anyone tried it????
As and experiment of course.

[Omega]

Check this out, it hurts looking at it, but only because the loss of all that ammo.

https://youtu.be/3SlOXowwC4c

[am44mag]

Saw it on TV once. Guy got wounded by a round going off in a fire.
Could that really happen????
I would think the case would blow before the bullet is expelled.
Has anyone tried it????
As and experiment of course.

Have I tried it, no. Can it hurt you? Yes.

The bullet is not what you have to worry about. Those usually stay put. The shell on the other hand tends to turn into a mini rocket. If they decide to just blow up instead, then you have the possibility of brass shrapnel causing injuries. This type of stuff usually doesn't have a lot of power to it. A wood crate or a steel ammo can will usually stop them. Bare skin won't stop it quite as easily. I don't know how likely it would be to kill you, but I'd rather not be the one to find out.

[Grmps]

I read somewhere that firemen would/could not be hurt by exploding ammo, it wouldn't penetrate their fire suits.
There is no barrel/chamber to help the cartridge build pressure or direct the boolit.

[smokeywolf]

The physics of it would suggest that you'd probably have to be in the same room or within not too many feet to be injured by a piece of flying brass.

As Grmps mentioned, there's no chamber to prevent the brass from freely expanding and separating from the bullet at greatly reduced pressure.

[Thin Man]

A local sporting goods store burned down here many years ago. They had a lot of ammo on their shelves and some of it "popped off" in the fire. When this began happening the firemen trained their hoses on the ammo stacks and got that stopped. None of the firemen were injured even though they were real close to the ammo that was exploding. They did not even have any brass particles embedded in their protective gear but it did give them a scare at first. When they got the fire out they were laughing about asking for combat pay for working in a live fire environment. The arson investigator who examined the scene privately reasoned this had been a "friction fire". He claimed the store owner's checkbook and the mortgage company's payment coupon book had rubbed together so much that this probably started the fire.

[Wheelguns 1961]

Friction fire! That’s funny!

[Petrol & Powder]

Bullets in a fire will just melt :-)

Cartridges in a fire may explode but there's not much danger unless the cartridge was contained in a chamber at the time. A loaded gun in a fire presents a danger to those around, particularly firefighters. If the round contained in the chamber cooks off the projectile will be expelled from the barrel as if the gun was fired in a normal fashion.

A cartridge in a fire will also cook off but the relatively heavy projectile will not be launched with significant force. The casing may become a projectile but it lacks the mass to do much harm. The casing is also relatively weak and is more likely to simply split open as opposed to being launched as an entire unit.

[dverna]

I do not worry about my loaded rounds....I do worry about the 150k+ primers I have stocked piled....they are in a separate building.

[Texas by God]

Young, dumb and bulletproof; we threw .22 LR and shotgun shells in the campfire to liven things up. Once a .270 was tossed in and THAT was exiting when the brass rocket launched and hit a pickup close by. It didn't even scratch the paint, though.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bdicki]

We did put some 38 shells, that we found in a shed, in a fire when we were kids. Seemed like a good idea to a couple of 10 year olds. You could here the brass whizzing in all directions and by your head. We never tried that again.

[OS OK]

Long time ago, me and my helper were running a long run of emt up in a warehouse along a concrete wall. He worked off the lift and I did the bending on the floor and handed the pipe up to him. He was using, I forget the name brand, using a little hammer fired concrete pin setting device that used crimped .22 blanks to seat the pin through the strap into the concrete wall.

Anyway, one of the blanks got away from him and was laying on the floor by me...when I dropped the bender to the floor the handle landed on the .22 blank, firing it. Scared the heck out of me. A few minutes passed and I noticed my left forearm bleeding. After looking closely I found an entry slit and exit slit about an inch apart just under the skin, a piece of that crimped brass must have blown off the case. I didn't even feel it hit me.

I doubt it would have passed through clothing or a jacket but it sure could take an eye out.

[Kraschenbirn]

Once upon a time in a land far, far away, I watched a UH-1D burn from about 50M away...240 gallons of JP-4 and a ton or so of magnesium make for a very hot fire! The 7.62 in the ammo boxes sounded like popcorn popping but don't recall any injuries from fragments.

Bill

[KCSO]

Done it as a demonstration many times a loaded 30-06 in a cardboard box. The primer is the most dangerous as it really flies out of the pocket and will penetrate a layer and a half of cardboard, next is the case if the brass shears off the bullet just bounces around in the box. To destroy loaded ammo we just put it a little at a time in the wood stove outside and let it go and then salvage brass for scrap and lead for re moulding.

[429421Cowboy]

I have seen cases after a fire, and they generally are split open and jagged looking, with the bullet often still in place (maybe it has to do if the bullet was crimped or not?). I'd say that there is a small degree of eye danger, but doubt they'd go through any kind of clothing really, certainly not through turnout gear. I was on a fire about this time last year at an old farmhouse that we were fighting, when the fire reached the basement ammo started going off, sounded like weak little pops. Still a little scary since we had no way of knowing what was loose and what might be chambered rounds. I'm honestly more concerned about accelerants in a fire than live ammo, I.E. paint cans, aerosol cans etc... One of the craziest ones I've dealt with involved crawling in a burning semi trailer full of Dominos Pizza fixings, the non stick spray cans kept popping off and flying around the trailer on fire. Way worse than any live ammo I've encountered!

[Grmps]

Ammunition Fire video from SAAMI http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?319275-Ammunition-Fire-video-from-SAAMI

Exploding Ammunition - Is this a problem? https://my.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/exploding-ammunition-is-this

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=zP7JW-_eOYqP8AOBnIWYDA&q=ammunition+in+a+fire+dangerous&oq=ammunition+in+a+fire&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i22i30l7.1838.5784..1 1102...0.0..0.159.2388.11j10......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..35i39j0i131j0i10.MybM9A3xXlw

[Echo]

A local sporting goods store burned down here many years ago. They had a lot of ammo on their shelves and some of it "popped off" in the fire. When this began happening the firemen trained their hoses on the ammo stacks and got that stopped. None of the firemen were injured even though they were real close to the ammo that was exploding. They did not even have any brass particles embedded in their protective gear but it did give them a scare at first. When they got the fire out they were laughing about asking for combat pay for working in a live fire environment. The arson investigator who examined the scene privately reasoned this had been a "friction fire". He claimed the store owner's checkbook and the mortgage company's payment coupon book had rubbed together so much that this probably started the fire.

Friction Fire - Love it!

[wv109323]

Loaded ammo in a fire is not dangerous. But a firearm with a loaded round is another story.

[country gent]

Had a pick up truck catch fire years ago behind the seat were 2 boxes of 12 ga bird shot shells. some the crimp unfolded others the sides split, these were the plastic shells not the older waxed paper hulls.

[lightman]

Loaded ammo in a fire can be dangerous, mostly due to brass particles and primers flying around. While serious injury could happen the likelihood is pretty small. A loaded firearm in a fire is another story. Contained in a chamber and cooking off is the same as being intentionally fired. The Firemen that I know and have worked around are much more worried about aerosol cans or bottled propane.

I recently saw a show, maybe Chicago Fire or 911, where a Fireman was injured by a loaded firearm in a fire. That may have been the show that the OP saw.

[BigMagShooter]

the above video says it all.

[Rick N Bama]

Friction fire! That’s funny!

When I was with the local VFD that's exactly what we called some of the fires we fought. Some were also spontaneous combustion when the Insurance Policy was combined with the Mortgage.

[Blanket]

common practice in the military to burn off unused small arms ammo

[Leslie Sapp]

But a firearm with a loaded round is another story.

A firefighter in Cross City, Fl (which is near my house) was killed some years back by a loaded .22 rifle lying on a shelf in a blazing garden shed.

[Lloyd Smale]

had a pole barn burn to the ground about 10 years ago. It was where I reloaded and all my ammo was stored. There was well over a 100k loaded rounds in there. It sounded like the forth of july. fire burned so hot some of the steal actually melted. We did find pieces of pole barn steel that had holes in it from bullets cooking off so if it will punch through that im sure it would not have much problem punching through your skin. I still find cooked off cases as far as 200 feet from the fire so even the case could hurt you. The fire fighters had no choice but to stand back and let it go because they didn't want to get near it and I don't blame them. When I built the new barn I made my loading room where I store ammo a bit safer. the walls are 8 inch poured reinforced concrete. At least if it happens again the fire fighters would be safe.

[mold maker]

It's the difference of being hit with a 1# anvil or a 1# pillow. One can kill ya and the other get your attention.
In a cook-off, the lighter weight piece is the one propelled.
The density difference between a boolit and an empty case is huge, so the case takes flight.
Granted if you're close enough, unprotected, and hit just in the right place, damage would occur, but that's a lot of variables.
Lloyd because it's you saying so, I won't dispute what happened with the steel being penetrated, but all conditions must have been perfect for it to happen.

[Omega]

When we invaded Iraq, we would torch all the ammo and blow in place the weapons because we had no way of securing the cache. Never seen any rounds go further than a few feet, and most of the projectiles were intact cases.

[bedbugbilly]

Our normal police was when we arrived at a "working fire", if the homeowner was present we would ask if here was anything in the house such as ammunition, etc. that we needed to be worried about. Nevertheless, I have been in fires where ammo did burn and I, personally gave it very little thought.

We once had a working fire where an old farm house with ballon framing was on fire. We got it knocked down but it had gotten in to the walls, and with the balloon framing, traveled up the walls. We had to tear lath and plaster off on both the first story and second to get to some of it and just as it was about to break through into the attic, we finally got it put out. After watching us for nearly two hours fight the fire, the homeowner walked over and said, "I probably should tell you that I have 5 pounds of black powder stored in the attic.". I have no idea if he was afraid he would get in trouble for having it stored in his house or what - but he got the lecture of his life for not informing us as it put all of us in danger.

We had a call for a house trailer fire one time and when we got there, the fire had originated in one end where th kitchen was. Two of us crawled in the side door and down the hl to the kitchen area whee you could plainly see it was going pretty well. I was on the tip and as we crawled through the door to the kitchen, we started hearing a number of what sounded like explosions. I had something hit me on the side of my air pack mask but we kept going and got the fire knocked down fairly quickly. After we had it all put out and were mopping up, the kitchen was pretty much charred but when I was looking for the origin of the fire, I noticed that charred parts of several of the cabinet doors were on the opposite side of the kitchen. It then became evident that the explosions and popping we had heard was canned goods in the cabinets that had become super heated and the cans blew. Enough force to take a portion of several of the doors off and put them on the other side of the room. It was the first time that I had ever run into that but I never forgot it and in training sessions, it would be recalled a number of times as lesson that ammunition, gunpowders, (smokeless will burn but
BP will blow), solvents, etc are not the only things to be aware of. When we got back to the station and we were cleaning up our air packs and gear, I couldn't believe what I found on the side of my mask as well as in the tank holder - almost charred but recognizable remains of "baked beans".

Just be prudent in where and how you store things - ammunition, powders, solvents, flammable liquids, etc. Personally, I never cared what a person and when we got to the scene of a fire as we were concerned in getting it out, making sure that everyone was out of the house and that none of us got hurt. But if you do have such things stored in your house or outbuildings, and should have a fire, for goodness sake let the FD know when they arrive on the scene so they can take precautions.

[Shingle]

Our substation burned down in 2006 there was about million rounds of 9mm in it brass cases were everywhere for a 100yd. around the building.

[DIRT Farmer]

I dug a primer out of my belly once, it was barly buried under the skin. This was working EMS and removing an injured person from a burning pickup. I had a standard uniform shirt on.

[Lloyd Smale]

I would guess some of the projectiles went through the steel because that ammo was packed together and im sure some of the cases couldn't move. Bottom line is don't take it for granted that it cant kill you. If it punched through pole barn steel it could punch through you. Even the cases that ended up 200 feet away surely left at a pretty good clip. Odd thing is the cases that went the furtist were wolf 762x39 factor ammo. I wondered if the fact they seal the bullets in lacquer allowd them to build a bit more pressure. that was 10 years ago and even this summer I found a couple wolf cases REAL far from where the barn is.

Bottom line though is the small amount of steel that didn't actually melt had bullet holes in them and im not talking holes made by cases but 223 and 30 cal holes. When I got home the barn was about gone already but the fire cheif said he never saw a fire like that. he said the center of the fire was a white glow. It actually turned some of the sand floor to glass. Everything lead and aluminum was a puddle and probably 3/4s of the steel of the walls and stuff inside was GONE. melted!

Now there was AT LEAST 500lbs of powder, cases of primers and im afraid to guess how much loaded ammo but it surely was measured in 10s of thousands. There was 4 50cal ammo cans just of of loaded 5.56 and two more one full of 9s and one full of 40s and probably even more 45acps then that, 4 cases of wolf 762x39 and a lifetime supply of 22lr. then add in my bolt gun ammo and all the revolver ammo so it was probably an exceptional example. Ill say this without reservation there was more $ in loading gear and ammo lost then the cost of the barn and everything else in it. Just lucky it was summer and the vette was out in the driveway.

Learned two lessons. I still have lots of ammo but not near that much and my insurance only covered 15k in contents and I had that much in there even if I didn't count the gun stuff. Today I have 50k in content insurance. There was a shining star in that mess. First I ended up with a much better set up when the new barn went up. Second is when it happened the guys right here on this forum were unbelievable. I had probably a hundred boxes of loading gear and components sent to me by the members here. Some with a few boxes of bullets some with presses and even a star loader, a lyman casting pot and two rockchuckers and so much more I couldn't even list it all. Not one person would take a dime for it and about half of it came without even a return address by guys that weren't even looking for a thankyou. Even dillion came through and gave me a free 550. What other hobby in the world would have guys that don't even know you come through like that!!!!!!!!
It's the difference of being hit with a 1# anvil or a 1# pillow. One can kill ya and the other get your attention.
In a cook-off, the lighter weight piece is the one propelled.
The density difference between a boolit and an empty case is huge, so the case takes flight.
Granted if you're close enough, unprotected, and hit just in the right place, damage would occur, but that's a lot of variables.
Lloyd because it's you saying so, I won't dispute what happened with the steel being penetrated, but all conditions must have been perfect for it to happen.

[Down South]

I've seen my share of ammo burned. Not much danger if you are a little distance back.

One of my houses burned down a few yrs ago from a lighting strike. I was in Houston when the house burned. I had moved out of the house and rented it out. The first call I got was to inform me the house was on fire. Since I was a known reloader, the second call I got I was asked if I had ammo in the house since they could hear explosions. I told them that I had removed all the ammo when I moved and I figured they were hearing canned goods exploding.

[beagle]

The NRA had a neat video of that some years back. After watching that, your mind should be at rest.

Now, I've witnessed two BIG ammunition fires in my lifetime and a pad of 8" projectiles going is not to be sneezed at so If you load for a M110 SP howitzer.....beware. I'd sure like to see the size of a mould for that projectile./beagle

[Brassduck]

I watched an ammo dump blow up in vietnam, took two days, ruined me for the 4th of July !!!!

[dale2242]

We had a fire in our reloading shed back in the 70s.
None of the cases or bullets escaped thin metal tray they were stored in.
There were some pretty deep dents in the thin metal but none of the materials escaped....dale

[WarEagleEd]

I found this article on the NRA/American Hunter website, https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2012/4/4/is-loaded-ammo-deadly-if-it-catches-on-fire/

It states what most everybody else is saying above. Brass shrapnel will fly about at times but typically not with sufficient velocity to penetrate a layer of cardboard. Bullets don't gain much velocity when cases explode, and they explode pretty randomly (i.e. not one big kaboom).

I think this article was in the American Rifleman magazine at some point, too, as I remember reading it at some point in the last several years

[Mal Paso]

6-800 rounds of full house 44 mag ammo cooked off in the back of my car when it burned. No holes, not so much as a dent.

[CLAYPOOL]

Some where in all the reading over the years I saw/read a story from the NRA? It was back 40 -50 years ago that i read it. Showed a photo of a .30-06 on a hot plate with a card box over it. The gist of it was it would not penetrate the box. Any one remember it...?

[Lloyd Smale]

lots of the brass and bullets that I found furthest from the barn were wolf 762x39 and 556. Maybe they had more force because the bullets are lacquer sealed and built more pressure. Don't know what to tell the doubters. You can read what you want but cooked off ammo punched though my pole bar steel and brass and bullets were found 50 yards away. If it will punch through pole barn steel id have to think that you in the yard in a light shirt would be in trouble. You wouldn't get me or anyone with a lick of sense to stand close to 10k of ammo cooking off let alone the amount I had in that barn. Maybe too it being in close proximity to the powder burning white hot cooked it off faster then a camp ground fire would. I don't know. I do know I saw it with my own two eyes.

[jsizemore]

Since it was Wolf, might it have been steel cased ammo?

[Lloyd Smale]

yes it was. don't know how that would make a difference though.

[KCSO]

Steel case is tougher and offers more resistance. I know that the primers fly harder and farther from a unchambered cartridge. I will try and test one this week for penetration and let you know.

[Omega]

Steel case is tougher and offers more resistance. I know that the primers fly harder and farther from a unchambered cartridge. I will try and test one this week for penetration and let you know.
I don't think that will make a noticeable difference. The only thing I can think of is if a case at the middle of a heavy pile went off and there was enough around it to hold the case down allowing the bullet to fly out. But even then, I don't think it would penetrate steel, maybe the holes were already there and were not noticed until after the fire.

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry the barn was less then 10 years old and didn't have a bunch of holes in wall. maybe cyborg mice came and ate perfectly round little holes in it before the metal cooled????
I don't think that will make a noticeable difference. The only thing I can think of is if a case at the middle of a heavy pile went off and there was enough around it to hold the case down allowing the bullet to fly out. But even then, I don't think it would penetrate steel, maybe the holes were already there and were not noticed until after the fire.

[Tom W.]

Well, in case anyone wonders what happens when you put a shotgun shell on a stump and shoot said shell with a shotgun and a load if #8 shot wonder no longer. The primer comes back at the shooter in a rapid
motion and the powder charge burns up. The shot charge stays where it is and the case mouth doesn't open. Of course, I only tried it once .......

[rbuck351]

I wonder if the roof steel was really hot, possibly white hot and very soft.

[Omega]

I wonder if the roof steel was really hot, possibly white hot and very soft.

That too is a possibility.

Speaking of dumb things, we used to wedge live .22 and shotgun shells into branches and shoot at them with bb guns. I'm surprised we didn't hurt ourselves with some of the stunts we pulled.

[RED BEAR]

actually saw it on myth busters they set different caliber ammo on fire with plywood around it a few feet away. no bullets but some of the brass stuck into the plywood mostly large caliber like 50 cal bmg. it didn't really penetrate but did stick into it. the bullet being heavier than the brass its the brass that moves.

[Tom W.]

When one is young one just has to try it and see...

[fatelk]

Well, in case anyone wonders what happens when you put a shotgun shell on a stump and shoot said shell with a shotgun and a load if #8 shot wonder no longer. The primer comes back at the shooter in a rapid
motion and the powder charge burns up. The shot charge stays where it is and the case mouth doesn't open. Of course, I only tried it once .......

I believe you. Long ago one of my grandfather's friends for some reason decided to put a 12ga shell on a fence post and shoot it with a BB gun. He then had to go to the emergency room to have the primer surgically removed from his arm. It came back and penetrated his forearm, traveling up through his arm to his elbow, as I recall.

[Lloyd Smale]

that's a possibility that I never thought of. I wasn't there to actually see the fire until it was almost out. I had gone to town to do banking and by the time I returned less then an hour later it was already a pile of rubble. Ammo was still cooking off but the walls (the little left of them) were already on the ground. Most of the walls and roof were actually melted. Had a 4 wheeler parked in there and all that was left of it was the frame crank and jug and some gears. The piston was even melted. Tried to recover as much lead as I could but built over it and poured a concrete floor and often wonder how much lead is still under that cement. I doubt I got half of what was there. You think smelting ww is bad try lead with gravel and sand impregnated in it.
I wonder if the roof steel was really hot, possibly white hot and very soft.

[Geraldo]

I believe it was in the Miami area that a loaded M1 carbine cooked off a few rounds in a house fire. It was lying on a shelf in a closet and the op rod cycled a few rounds. No one hurt and it's definitely an outlier.

From personal experience, if you're throwing empty cartridge boxes in a burn barrel and include a full box, 9mm FMJ doesn't penetrate the steel barrel.

Guns, ammo, powder, and primers were the least of my worries fighting fires. In fact, I didn't worry much about hazardous substances. Building construction, fire conditions, and getting lost/trapped are what will kill you.

[merlin101]

When one is young one just has to try it and see...

Ever notice the words "young and dumb" just seem to go together?

[GONRA]

Waaay back Lloyd Smale sez: "We did find pieces of pole barn steel that had holes in it from bullets cooking off....."
GONRA finds it Extremely Difficult to believe these Are Real Live BULLET HOLES?
Methinks its from some OTHER exploding consumer stuff? ???
OR - from the original Pole Barn Construction Crew screwups? ???
>>> One way or anoher - we'll Never Really No! <<<

[Omega]

that's a possibility that I never thought of. I wasn't there to actually see the fire until it was almost out. I had gone to town to do banking and by the time I returned less then an hour later it was already a pile of rubble. Ammo was still cooking off but the walls (the little left of them) were already on the ground. Most of the walls and roof were actually melted. Had a 4 wheeler parked in there and all that was left of it was the frame crank and jug and some gears. The piston was even melted. Tried to recover as much lead as I could but built over it and poured a concrete floor and often wonder how much lead is still under that cement. I doubt I got half of what was there. You think smelting ww is bad try lead with gravel and sand impregnated in it.
Oh heck no, I know for a fact rocks and gravel hold moisture, that may not end well.

[frankenfab]

Bill Cosby: "Who put the bullet in the furnace?" !

Anybody remember ?

[Mal Paso]

You think smelting ww is bad try lead with gravel and sand impregnated in it.

Been there, glass and aluminum too. The dross was excessive.

[dbarry1]

Primer can become the projectile. Comes out with enough force to go thru a t-shirt and lodge in the skin (that requires tweezers to pull out).
Ask me how I know... :O)