Win/Miroku 1873 44-40

[Randy Bohannon]

So I found the exact one I have been wanting ,Shot Show Special,Pistol grip, very nice wood, steel shotgun butt,24" half round barrel,checkering, CCH. I have ordered the Accurate mold # 43-215 @.430" and plan on B/P only and soft 20:1 bullets shot as cast lubed with enhanced SPG lube and Swiss/O/E 1.5Fg-2 Fg,3Fg untilI get I 1250 fps or so,replicating original performance level.
Has the R.O.T for 44-40 barrels been a consistent 1:38" or thereabouts or is there slow and slower ? What would be the optimum bullet weight for accuracy and hunting or the best accuracy with heaviest for caliber that would be reasonable for the 73 action ?

Thank You all for your experience and wisdom.

[HawkCreek]

They are real nice rifles! Though I know nothing about reloading for them yet.

Here's mine:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?368442-New-Miroku-1873

[CamoWhamo]

I already own a half dozen Win/Miroku's in 1873, 92's and 94's and i am very pleased with all of them.

I just ordered another one. This time it's an 1873 24" Octagonal Barrel with pistol grip in 44-40.

I have a Model 92 in 44-40 already and the barrel on that is .431 so my guess is Miroku use the same barrel as they do for 44 Magnum (SAAMI spec for lever guns is .431).
The .431 bore has been a real bugbear for me trying to find a bullet that works so i'm hoping Miroku make the 1873's closer to tru spec. Then again, if it's not .431 like my 92 then i'll have to buy more molds.

[GARD72977]

I work for Winchester. We make the ammo not the guns. I can order one through the company. I'm wanting a 73. Can't make up my mind between 45LC or 44-40.

[Randy Bohannon]

I have the 92 in 45 Colt and is a good shooter with fat .456 boolits also have a Win/Miroku 1873 SRC .38/357 love the rifle 38/357 a bit underwhelming.
So the new fancy one is 44-40WCF ,what the rifle was designed around. MidWay has 44-40 Cowboy dies on sale for $43.00,get a 44-40. If you already have a lever gun in 45 Colt get a 44-40.

[CamoWhamo]

I work for Winchester. We make the ammo not the guns. I can order one through the company. I'm wanting a 73. Can't make up my mind between 45LC or 44-40.

I like the .45 but if you're going to buy a nostalgic or classic firearm i'd stick to the original calibers so I'd go with 44-40 myself. It's the classic rifle/caliber combination. They never sold the originals in .45LC.

[GARD72977]

I'm aware of the originals. I consider these shooters not collector's.

[indian joe]

I'm aware of the originals. I consider these shooters not collector's.

44/40 shooters proly cause you less grief than a 45

[HawkCreek]

I have a Miroku 92 in .45 Colt as well as the above mentioned Miroku 73 in .44-40, these are the only two Miroku's in pistol calibers I have seen so I can't say if I got top shelf both times or not. The .44-40 seems to be a better shooter. The .45 Colt has a VERY generously cut chamber. It's still within spec as far as I can tell (havent gotten around to casting it yet) but it leaves a hump in the brass with every load I've tried through it to date.

[greenjoytj]

44/40 shooters proly cause you less grief than a 45

A statement like that begs the question why?

[veeman]

45's are not designed for a rifle. Doesn'r mean they don't work, just that the rim is smaller, brass is harder, more blowby on 45, dirtier brass. I'm sure others caan explain better, but that's the basic of it.

[Randy Bohannon]

It has been explained to me that the 45 Colt was never chambered in original designs because it was a difficult cartridge to the get the cartridge load and feed as well as other cartridges did and it was just plain bothersome to entertain.Modern engineering has made it possible with the dreaded '45 Colt Bulge' in leverguns so chambered.Virtually all 45 Colt chambers are big sloppy affairs in leverguns regardless of who made it with few exceptions.This aids in the feeding/chambering issues that had been discovered in the early rifles that were never commercially produced,it's not because the manufacture does'nt know how to chamber a rifle.

[indian joe]

A statement like that begs the question why?

Veeman pretty much got it with this
"45's are not designed for a rifle. Doesn't mean they don't work, just that the rim is smaller, brass is harder, more blowby on 45, dirtier brass. I'm sure others can explain better, but that's the basic of it. "
I would add --Winchester knew what they were doing when they built those early lever gun rounds with that little bit of bottle neck - it helps a lot with slick feeding

[Texas by God]

The original rim on .45 Colt ammo was just big enough to headspace in the SAA. Today's rims are bigger thanks to the New Service/ 1909 USMC Colt revolver- as far as I know. The 44 WCF is a better design case for chamber seal.

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[bigted]

Knowing now what i did not when i got three japchester 45 Colt's i would never get another lever in the 45 Colt chambering.

The primary problem is not the case rim. The real problem is the complete straight case. Take the 92 for instance ... take a look at the cartridge as it rests on the lifter ramp. It is going at an angle and will have to have a generous hole to glide into as the case has no taper. If it were tapered or necked as with ALL the other cartridges it was chambered in then the hole could be the same size as the cartridge. However, the Colt case is completely straight ... hence the hole it needs to go in MUST be larger then the cartridge so the angle works.

The 73 has a different problem, it chambers good as the straight cartridge is lifted in a complete flat condition hence just slides straight into the chamber and this hole can be the same diameter to chamber EXCEPT ... now after firing ... that complete straight case that had simple folded brass/copper cases which swell upon firing ... have and had extraction trouble. So now to combat the sticky extraction trouble, the chamber needs to be a bit bigger then the case so upon firing, the case swells and returns to a closer then needed factory condition, therefore be able to extract with ease.

The 44 WCF is a way better choice or 38 WCF for that matter as they are thin cases as well as being a necked AND tapered cartridge, they feed AND extract like butter ... seal the chamber ... and keep the fouling ahead of the case mouth.

Simple ... original chambers ... MUCH BETTER!

[CamoWhamo]

I had a Miroku built Winchester 92 in 45LC and have had 2 in 44-40 (and still have one).

I can concur with the blowback and chamber seal in 45LC. My 45LC cases were always covered in carbon about 3/4 of the way from from the case mouth, whereas my 44-40 cases are much cleaner.

[Hootmix]

Hey CamoWhamo , up having coffee ,, other wise i'd get in on the discussion ,, .oh ! I shoot 44/40 ,, Rossi src ,, 90's model ,," life is good ".

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

[CamoWhamo]

I picked mine up today.

Model 1873 blued receiver with pistol grip and 24"octagonal barrel.

Next step is the remove that sticker, give it a good clean and do a cerrosafe cast to determine bore diameter.

It won't chamber fired cases or loaded rounds from my Win/Miroku 92 so my guess is bore is less than my 92's .431.

229357

[bigted]

That's a super looking rifle my friend. She looks like an original working rifle. Just rite. I am betting you will love yours as much as i like mine. EXCEPT ... sure wish i had held out for the 44 WCF.

Keep us posted please. Anxious to hear your trail of happiness with your new rifle.

[CamoWhamo]

bigted, it is indeed a beautiful rifle. I have wanted this exact rifle for many years but supply here in Australia is very poor so i had to settle on an 1873 short rifle in .357 and a Model 92 in .44-40.

Winchester Australia recently got a shipment in and i couldn't order one quick enough. I don't need another rifle but here you have to seize the opportunity when it arises or you miss out. They rarely come up on the used gun market too.

Today i gave it a clean and did a cerrosafe cast of the bore. It mikes out at .430 and the chamber is definitely tighter in the 1873 so i'll have to spend some time finding the right combination of bullet size that will chamber and function fine.

My package from Buffalo Arms arrived this afternoon so the rifle now has a Marbles Tang Sight and Lyman Globe front Sight. I will take some pics in better light tomorrow.

[CamoWhamo]

Today i did a cerrosafe cast of the chamber and throat and double checked my bore cast. I found that my bore is in fact .430, not .431 as i originally measured. That explains why most of the ammo made for Model 92 don't chamber. My 92 has a .431 bore and looser chamber tolerances.

The chamber dimensions are such that bullet should be sized to .430 to allow enough room for the case neck to expand and release the bullet.
Rounds made with .431 bullets are a snug fit in the chamber.

[crash87]

It has been explained to me that the 45 Colt was never chambered in original designs because it was a difficult cartridge to the get the cartridge load and feed as well as other cartridges did and it was just plain bothersome to entertain.Modern engineering has made it possible with the dreaded '45 Colt Bulge' in leverguns so chambered.Virtually all 45 Colt chambers are big sloppy affairs in leverguns regardless of who made it with few exceptions.This aids in the feeding/chambering issues that had been discovered in the early rifles that were never commercially produced,it's not because the manufacture does'nt know how to chamber a rifle.

Something to ponder, "It has been said to me",....JK, that Winchester never chambered the 45 Colt in a rifle because it was a cartridge designed by "COLT", was a "COLT" cartridge, and wanted a cartridge with a W-W headstamp. Also, could have been also because they didnt have the Right to do so, and didnt want to possibly pay for it, Of course speculation on my part.
Also I have, and shoot alot of 45 Colt handloads, 3 in SA revolvers, (Colt, Colt Clone, and Ruger), and 1 rifle, a 94, Made in Japan, I have never experienced the "dreaded '45 Colt Bulge'"! Manufacturers have, IMHO, done a pretty good job of giving us things, unheard of years ago! But even when they do, for whatever reasons, some consumers are still not very happy.
I know this has nothing to do with the OP's post so let me say I also have a Winchester '92, Made in japan, in 44 magnum. I would have likes to have one in 44-40, but knowing that the barrels were not set up for 44-40, instead, because of mfg. costs, use the same as for the 44 mag, That is what I went with. I also, because of being a Boolit caster and handloader, my 44 magnum is loaded with titegroup and brought down to the 44-40 ballistics with bullets cast in one of Mihecs wonderful molds, a 200 gr plain base. After all, once the Boolit leaves the muzzle its just a .44 caliber bullet, traveling at 44-40 velocities, nothing more, nothing less. But also, with the 44 magnum, not having the potential, for headaches of shooting an undersized bullet or using a proper size boolit and having clambering problems.
Crash87

[Texas by God]

Winchester model 73 wouldn't work reliably with the the tiny .45 Colt rim. You can bet Winchester would have chambered the Govt. Issue .45 Colt if they could have. Colt wasted little time in chambering the SAA for 44-40; calling it the Frontier Six Shooter.

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[Randy Bohannon]

I have had the rifle for a week now, I went with one of Accurate's 44-40 B/P 215 gr. boolits @ .430 cast with 16:1 WW brass 38 grs. of Swiss 1.5 gave me 1.5"-2.0" groups @ 50 yds. Not bad for the first time out,definately need to change out the factory front and rear sight. I used RCBS 'Cowboy' dies and they made handloads that fit my rifle perfectly, did not crush a single case neck while seating bullets or bulge a case while compressing B/P even with 40 grs. Also there was no need to use case lube when resizing new brass at least with WW brass and RCBS dies.Now I want a Win/Miroku 92 in 44-40, the 73 is for B/P loads only maybe some similar level smokeless when I get bored.

[indian joe]

Winchester model 73 wouldn't work reliably with the the tiny .45 Colt rim. You can bet Winchester would have chambered the Govt. Issue .45 Colt if they could have. Colt wasted little time in chambering the SAA for 44-40; calling it the Frontier Six Shooter.

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What about company dynamics? I read a story said colt manufactured a lever gun for trial marketing - winchester countered with five or six quite nice pistols - there was a meeting - colt decided to ditch their lever gun - these things happen behind closed doors all the time .....

[CamoWhamo]

I went with one of Accurate's 44-40 B/P 215 gr. boolits @ .430 cast with 16:1 WW brass 38 grs. of Swiss 1.5 gave me 1.5"-2.0" groups @ 50 yds.
Now I want a Win/Miroku 92 in 44-40, the 73 is for B/P loads only maybe some similar level smokeless when I get bored.

I took mine out for it's maiden shoot a couple of days ago. I was using the 43-220C which is the same bullet style but for smokeless. My load was 7.8gn of Unique and delivered 1180fps average velocity. The results can be seen in the pic below. 50 rounds at 50m (55yd) fired from the bench and most are inside the 10 ring. I'm very happy with how it shoots.

I put a Marble's tang sight and Lyman 17A front globe sight on mine. I was using one of the Lee Shaver inserts in the front sight. That combination worked really well.

I have a Miroku 92 and it's also a beautifully made rifle but not as accurate as the 1873, but i suspect that has much to do with the sights.

230231230232

[Randy Bohannon]

I have the 92 Win/Miroku 45 Colt once I got the right size/design boolit it shoots very well,you are right,very well made rifles.I have the 1873 Win/Miroku in 38/357 SRC as well, beuatifully made rifle I am not impressed with the cartridge in a lever rifle, it feels puny.It currenty has a MVA tang sight and MVA front sight I am waiting for a base for the pistol grip 1873 and change them over to the 44-40.This rifle want's to shoot and I'm already looking at a heavier bullet mould. Accurate has a bunch suitable to 44-40 WCF.

[CamoWhamo]

We could be long lost twins Randy.

I have also owned a Win/Miroku 92 Takedown in 45LC and a 1873 Color Case Hardened Short Rifle in .357.

Whats the MVA sight? I haven't heard of them before. The Marble Arms Tang fits both the straigh and pistol grip rifles just fine.

[Randy Bohannon]

https://montanavintagearms.com/sights/
Montana Vintage Arms = MVA very high quality vernier and Soule sights, they make a copy of the Lyman tang sight for most of the lever guns I have not used the Lyman copy just vernier and soule sights.. I have used their sights for years on my BPCR rifles and very comfortable with them.Everything they make is suitable for the finest rifles or not and you do get what you pay for.
I just looked MVA list's two different bases for straight or pistol grip, I see no difference in the top tang of either rifle. I'll see if it fits with out any problem but I do like each rifle having it's own vernier or peep tang. Have you used the Marbles tang sight on the Win/Miroku 92 with the tang safety ?




We could be long lost twins Randy. Could be.

[bob208]

just what is the difference between cowboy dies and a lyman 3 die set ?

[Randy Bohannon]

Expanding die for off the shelf dies are set up for jacketed bullets. 'Cowboy' expander dies are for fat cast bullets



just what is the difference between cowboy dies and a lyman 3 die set ?

[danmat]

Hey Randy I installed a marbles tang peep on 92 Miroku 45 takedown, fit like glove tang wood was slightly proud, base fit between wood perfect I only installed tang screw never drilled and tapped the second one.
It has never moved in over a year of use.

[Randy Bohannon]

Thank you for that danmat, I have real disdain to drill and tap another hole,I'm going to give one a try.

[indian joe]

Thank you for that danmat, I have real disdain to drill and tap another hole,I'm going to give one a try.

???? My original 92"S are D&T from the factory for the forward screw for a marbles tang sight

[Randy Bohannon]

That's great, we are talking about new/newer Win/Miroku 92's they have the tang safety which you have to use the action screw and drill/tap for a second screw using any tang sight. Danmat just used the action screw to secure the Marbles sight,he indicated satisfactory results without D/T'ing for the second screw..



My original 92"S are D&T from the factory for the forward screw for a marbles tang sight

[danmat]

I also have the cch 73 Miroku which is d and t for a tang sigjht I'm pretty sure this year they released the 92 trapper cch and it is also d and t for a tang sight I believe

[HawkCreek]

https://montanavintagearms.com/sights/
Montana Vintage Arms = MVA very high quality vernier and Soule sights, they make a copy of the Lyman tang sight for most of the lever guns I have not used the Lyman copy just vernier and soule sights.. I have used their sights for years on my BPCR rifles and very comfortable with them.Everything they make is suitable for the finest rifles or not and you do get what you pay for.
I just looked MVA list's two different bases for straight or pistol grip, I see no difference in the top tang of either rifle. I'll see if it fits with out any problem but I do like each rifle having it's own vernier or peep tang. Have you used the Marbles tang sight on the Win/Miroku 92 with the tang safety ?



Could be.


I emailed MVA this week. They said their 1886 tang sight should fit my Miroku 73 and that it comes with the correct mounting screws. I plan to order one soon, I'll post the results.

[Randy Bohannon]

I suppose the 1885 and 1886 MVA bases are the same, When I called them and ordered mine as I could not find a listing for the 1873 on their web site, they said the 1885 base is the correct one for the Win/Miroku. Also note that they list a pistol grip and striaght grip bases. I just put straight base on a pistol grip and fits the same. The top tang is the same only the bottom tang is different, The new/ Win./Miroku 1886's and 92's have the tang safety which the 1873's do not, I dont see how the 1886 base will fit the 1873.

[indian joe]

I suppose the 1885 and 1886 MVA bases are the same, When I called them and ordered mine as I could not find a listing for the 1873 on their web site, they said the 1885 base is the correct one for the Win/Miroku. Also note that they list a pistol grip and striaght grip bases. I just put straight base on a pistol grip and fits the same. The top tang is the same only the bottom tang is different, The new/ Win./Miroku 1886's and 92's have the tang safety which the 1873's do not, I dont see how the 1886 base will fit the 1873.

difference from pistol grip to straight should be because of length of the tang screw ?

[Randy Bohannon]

difference from pistol grip to straight should be because of length of the tang screw ?


The Win/Miroku 1873 has seperate holes D/T'd on the tang for tang sights without using the action screw Win/Miroku 1892's and 1886's do not.

[DaveM]

So I found the exact one I have been wanting ,Shot Show Special,Pistol grip, very nice wood, steel shotgun butt,24" half round barrel,checkering, CCH. I have ordered the Accurate mold # 43-215 @.430" and plan on B/P only and soft 20:1 bullets shot as cast lubed with enhanced SPG lube and Swiss/O/E 1.5Fg-2 Fg,3Fg untilI get I 1250 fps or so,replicating original performance level.
Has the R.O.T for 44-40 barrels been a consistent 1:38" or thereabouts or is there slow and slower ? What would be the optimum bullet weight for accuracy and hunting or the best accuracy with heaviest for caliber that would be reasonable for the 73 action ?

Thank You all for your experience and wisdom.

FWIW, I load for .44-40 using the same bullet, cast in 1:20 and sized to .429 in my Cimarron (Uberti) 1873 Sporting Rifle. For lube I use a home-brew of 50/50 beeswax and mutton tallow. Powder charge is 2.2cc (35 grain equivalent) of either Goex, Old Eynsford, or Swiss 3Fg. I mostly use Starline brass, which is a little more robust than Winchester brass, but still thin enough to seal the chamber well. The action stays clean; I get more fouling in it from cleaning than from shooting.

Swiss gives the highest velocity and least fouling, but I have a large supply of Goex. Accuracy in my rifle with Swiss is a little better. Any of these combinations will group into 2" - 2.5" at 50 yards from the bench. Velocity with Swiss is ~1300 FPS, per a chronograph.

Cleanup with any of these loads is easy, but especially so with the Swiss. Goex is a lot dirtier than Swiss but I have a good supply of it. Even after putting 100 rounds through the rifle. I use Moose Milk made from ~1/3 Ballistol to 2/3 water. The exact proportions aren't critical. Windshield wiper fluid works good, too.

Another load you can try which will stretch your powder supply and reduce fouling further is a .44 rimfire-equivalent load of 28 grains of 3Fg with enough cornmeal on top as a filler so that there's no air space. IIRC that was 0.5cc. There's noticeably less recoil and fouling although in my rifles the full power loads are more accurate.

[CamoWhamo]

My rifle continues to impress me each time i take it out.

I tried a new mold i had made from Accurate. It's a 43-220CC (43-220C with change to the crimp groove).
I used 8.0gn of Unique and Lyman Orange Magic Lube.

My first 5 fouling shots printed a decent group just high and left.
A few clicks of adjustment and the next 5 made a ragged one hole group inside the X ring

230866(@55yd).

[Randy Bohannon]

A little time and effort works for most things, good shooting Camo, I've had to switch gears for a week or so.Brother and I are doing a 'Project Appleseed' event and I want my Rifleman badge the first time out.