New load test in 45ACP Lyman 200gr cast & CFE Pistol

[tazman]

I tried out a near full power load for 200 grain(nominal) cast today using CFE Pistol for propellant.
I had checked the Hodgdon data site and saw claims for 1050 fps and up to 1145fps using CFE Pistol with standard or below pressures. I decided to try some.
Powder charge was 7.6 grains of CFE Pistol. This is .2 grains higher than the suggested starting load and .6 grains less than the listed max.
Pistols used were Springfield 1911 Mil Spec and a SIG 1911 Nickel Rail.
First, I didn't have my chrono with me so can't verify the speed. I can tell you the recoil is significantly higher than what I have been shooting for fast loads. Remarkably little muzzle flash. Less than the Bullseye loads I had been using. I had been using a Titegroup load under a Nosler Custom 185 grain Hollow point and it has less recoil and a lot more flash than this CFE load.
This load didn't heat the gun up the way the Titegroup load does.
The boolits were cast from range scrap and water dropped. BHN was probably around 12-16. They were just hard enough I couldn't scratch them with my fingernail.
I sized them to .452 and lubed with NRA 50-50(White Label). The boolits weighed out at 210 for the Lyman 452460 and 205 for the Lee H&G 68 clone.
The Lyman 452460 boolits were loaded to 1.200 OAL. The Lee H&G 68 clones were loaded to 1.255.
There was no leading after 25-30 rounds in either pistol I used.
Accuracy was very nearly as good as what I get with lighter loads. I think, after I got used to them, they would do just as well.
The pressure indicators were normal. No flattening of the primers. No apparent swelled cases. No cracked or split cases. No soot on the sides of the cases. No failures of any kind while shooting. Brass got ejected a bit farther than what I normally get but that was to be expected.
I may try another set of them and see how they do over a chrono since they worked well enough in all the other ways. My tests over the chrono with CFE Pistol in 38 special and 9mm have been close to what the data site calls for.
If they are achieving the book velocities, this combo will be producing right at 500 ftlbs of energy. Very respectable for 45ACP.
They might serve well as a hunting load or even a backup self defense load for here at the house. At the least, they will serve as a practice load for producing the feel of factory full power loads.

[scattershot]

Sounds very interesting. Please keep us posted on the chrono data.

[LAH]

Never shot CFE Pistol, sounds like I need to.

[tazman]

Never shot CFE Pistol, sounds like I need to.

Check out the Hodgdon load data site. They have loads for CFE Pistol for just about all cartridges and boolit weights. The posted velocities are usually pretty close to correct.
If you like higher velocities, this powder gives some extra speed without raising pressure.
The only powder I am familiar with that gives similar performance is Longshot.

[jcren]

Cfe had become my favorite full power powder for 380 and 45 acp. Suprising velocity with a milder recoil pulse than comperable hs-6 or autocomp and almost no flash. My defense 380 will run 95 grains at 925 from my tcp with only a dull orange-red flash about the size of a lemon. Same load in the a bersa thunder gets 1050+

[LAH]

Thanks Taz.

[gnostic]

I see CFE at Walmart all the time, I'm trying it in my PPK and 45's. That H&G 68 at 1145 could become my carry load in 45acp...

[tazman]

I see CFE at Walmart all the time, I'm trying it in my PPK and 45's. That H&G 68 at 1145 could become my carry load in 45acp...


Those numbers are for a max load in a 5 inch barrel. If you are using a shorter barrel for carry you will not be getting that much velocity. It should still be more than adequate though.

[osteodoc08]

CFE Pistol is a fantastic powder. It’s useful over a wide range of cartridges.

[wl620]

I have had some cfe pistol for awhile and dont remember shooting any of it so i broke it out today and loaded a few in speer 45 auto cases with the lyman 452460 i roll crimped these in the top lube groove, put them in full moon clips and loaded them in my 4” 625. I was too lazy to get my chronograph out but was impressed with the accuracy at 25yards only shot 2 different 5 shot groups one with 7.5grs. and one with 8.1. The 8.1 load was the more accurate of the 2, clustering 5 shots into an inch and a half with 4 nearly in the same hole and 1 flyer that I called. will try to drag out the chrony and report back about test results. I’m hoping it wasn’t a fluke.

[tazman]

The more people we can get testing this, the better.
I am wondering if, since this powder is a bit slower than some powders that are commonly used for 45ACP and target loads, that it might just be more forgiving with cast. Perhaps a bit less punishing to the base of the boolit.
Just speculating here. I have no way to prove it.

[wl620]

Taz, I have burnt up quite a bit of “slower” powder in the 45 acp like longshot,hs-7, accurate 7, and even 2400 to name a few, (not all of these in an auto) I have found that I don’t normally get acceptable accuracy until i reach near top end with these type of powders. A quick glance at hodgdon powder burn rate chart puts cfe pistol right behind autocomp wich I have had good luck with in 45 acp although testing has been limited and intermittent. I am by no means an ex-spurt and everytime I sit down at the loading bench I learn something, it’s all speculation until the trigger is squeezed!

[tazman]

That would certainly explain your best group being from the heavier load. The load I tested was a bit lighter than yours. About the same as your light load. Accuracy, for me, wasn't any different than my light target loads.
Then again, I am not a good enough shot to tell for sure just how good a load may perform.
I will need to do further testing since the results I got warrant that.

[Potsy]

I've been meaning to play with CFE, Longshot, and Ramshot Silhouette in my Kimber. Just haven't had time. I have read, at least with Silhouette (probably on here) that it works best at upper end to plus p loads, which is what I'm trying them for in the first place.
Now if I can just find the time......

[wl620]

I stole a little time this morning, actually broke out the chrony. was nat able to duplicate accuracy I got yesterday but I have good days and bad days overall accuracy wasnt bad.
First the results from the 625, its a 4” JM model with .004 b/c gap. I used the lyman 452460 weighing in at 201 grs with just the bottom lube groove lubed, once fired speer 45 auto cases cci 300 primers.7.2 grs. cfe pistol 1.171 oal taper crimped .470 average velocity 1015 with an extreme spread of 38, sd 17.
next I switched to starline 45 auto rim brass with an oal of 1.245 and 8 grs. cfe pistol roll crimped in the top lube groove with an average velocity of 976 E.S. 48, sd 19.
3 different groups were fired with the respective different cases with groups in the 2”- 21/2” range at 25 yards. did not go higher than the 8 grain load as these “seemed” hot enough recoil wise and just from looking at the fired cases.

[jonp]

I've been looking at CFE Pistol as I noticed the velocity and pressure in the manuals were very good. One of my bosses just gave me a pound of Power Pistol for use in my 40cal but it seems to have a great deal of flash. Some more testing over a chrono would be great as 200gr is my weight of choice in 45ACP

[wl620]

I decided to shoot some of this stuff in an auto so I grabbed my plain jane 5” rock island started at 7.2 grs. with speer once fired cases same 452460 boolit taper crimped at 1.171 oal average velocity 1020 with an extreme spread of 45, sd 18. accuracy was acceptable.
I then bumped it up to 7.5 and I would consider this absolut maximum for this boolit seated to this depth casees were smartly ejected straight back over my head and primers were cratered pretty bad. velocity was; average 1039 Es 22, Sd 9 groups were better than previous load but this load is too hot for my use. and I’ve had better results with alliant power pistol with this boolit and pistol combination at around the same velocity.

For comparison I loaded 20 rounds with 5.5 grs. titegroup same speer cases, same cci 300 primers, same 452460 boolit,same oal of 1.171. 5” RIA turned in an average of 969 E.S. of 26 Sd 11 with mild recoil and excellent accuracy 10 shots cut 1 big ragged hole I mooned the other 10 up and shot them in the 625 with an average velocity of 954 E.S. of 28 sd13 accuracy results were pretty much the same as the rock island.

[OFFSHORE]

I just wanted to give CFE Pistol a try due to seeing it on a friends bench. He gave me several tablespoonfuls of it and I gave it a whirl. . .it did well in my Gold Cup National Match, so I bought a pound. After a little experimenting I settled on 7.5 grains of the CFE Pistol under a Lee 452-200-RF. This boolit is of 50/50 COWW/SOWW H2O quenched (not that it is needed, I just do) and sized to .452 then lubed with Ben's Red (I have switched everything over to Ben's Red!) and these weigh-out to 214gr. average. I shoot this load in three 45ACP pistols; Colt Gold Cup National Match, Springfield Long Slide V-16 and a Springfield XDS Mod 2 Subcompact. The Colt is my fun-gun, pure target perfection! The V-16 is duel purpose hunting/target, numerous hogs and a few deer have fallen to this pistol. The XDS Mod.2 Subcompact is my carry gun, with 10 rounds of this wide meplat bullet sailing along at 915 FPS, I don't think any two-legged varmint could withstand a dose of it. I may have just gotten lucky for this load combination to work out perfectly in all three .45's, but I must say I'm REAL happy it worked out that way. Awesome accuracy, great velocity, meters fantastic and clean burning. . .couldn't ask for more.

[tazman]

I got to the range today and used the chronograph on this load($100 Pro Chrono). I had 25 rounds of each boolit(452460, H&G68 clone) loaded over 7,6 grains of CFE Pistol.
According to Hodgdon's data site, this charge should give around 1050fps with these boolits(nominal 200 grains) from a 5 inch barrel.
I used mixed brass(I know, I should have sorted cases but this is how I shoot them so I didn't want to cherry pick data), CCI large pistol primers and seated both boolits so a fingernail of the front driving band was showing in front of the case. I fired these using two different 45ACP pistols. One was a Springfield 1911 Mil Spec with a 5 inch barrel. The other was a Springfield XDM with a 4.5 inch barrel. The chrono was setup 10 feet in front of my shooting station. I did not correct velocities to the muzzle. Not certain how to do that so I didn't try. I fired 10 shots with each boolit through the 1911 and five through the XDM. It was getting late and I had an appointment to keep so I shorted the XDM.
Temperature was about 53 degrees F
Results were as follows.
Springfield 1911 Mil Spec 5 inch barrel
Lyman 452460
Average velocity 1020fps es-33
H&G 68
Average velocity 985fps es-70

Springfield XDM 4.5 inch barrel
Lyman 452460
Average velocity 1042fps es-36
H&G 68
Average velocity 1014fps es-39

The Mil Spec gave less velocity than the XDM even though it had a longer barrel. I was expecting it to go the other way. Just goes to show that two guns can give very different result with otherwise identical conditions. The speeds were in the ballpark for the Hodgdon data site prediction. A little less but not terribly so. Within lot to lot differences easily enough. The XDM was really close to the predicted speed.
It was also interesting that the 453460 was noticeably faster than the H&G 68 with better extreme spreads than the H&G 68 clone. This occurred in both pistols.
If the velocities were corrected to the muzzle, it might be right on the money. I have no way to know for sure.
If any of you people get a chance to test this out please report here. I like seeing results from other shooters.

[Ed K]

This thread is very interesting. Just a couple of months ago I saw this article claiming high velocity at standard pressure.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-loads-for-the-45-acp/99214#
Has anyone tried Enforcer that is now working with CFE? No need to repeat ground that's already been covered. Anyhow high velocity at standard pressure sounds great regardless of the powder that gets you there.

[slam45]

this was shot in a S&W 625 5" starline auto rim brass, oal 1.25 using Labradar
Bullet: Accurate Molds #45-225B cast in 4/4/92, white line BAC, sized to 0.452"

I have used CFE Pistol in several 45 autos as well, it shoots very nicely in my 16" 45 ACP PCC which builds carbon in the comp shooting cast over red dot, stays clean with CFE.

Total number of shots 11

Units velocity fps
Units distances yd
Units kinetic energy ft-lbf
Units weight grain (gr)
45 Auto Rim 230wfn 6.5 CFE-Pistol
Stats - Average 796.25 fps
Stats - Highest 819.63 fps
Stats - Lowest 760.72 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 58.91 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 20.98 fps

Shot ID V0 V5 V15 V25 V50 V100 Ke0 Ke5 Ke15 Ke25 Ke50 Ke100 PF5 Proj. Weight Date Time
1 789 787 781 777 777 751 319 317 313 309 309 289 181.88 231.1 2/3/2018 10:28:39
2 812 809 802 797 797 0 338 335 330 325 325 0 186.96 231.1 2/3/2018 10:28:45
3 813 810 805 799 799 799 339 336 332 327 327 327 187.19 231.1 2/3/2018 10:28:50
4 762 759 754 748 751 0 297 295 291 287 289 0 175.4 231.1 2/3/2018 10:28:55
5 805 801 782 776 726 691 332 328 313 308 270 245 185.11 231.1 2/3/2018 10:29:01
6 814 810 804 798 0 0 339 336 331 326 0 0 187.19 231.1 2/3/2018 10:30:41
7 761 758 753 748 748 0 296 294 290 286 286 0 175.17 231.1 2/3/2018 10:30:45
8 789 785 778 772 0 0 319 316 310 306 0 0 181.41 231.1 2/3/2018 10:30:50
9 820 807 786 781 713 0 344 333 316 312 261 0 186.5 231.1 2/3/2018 10:30:54
10 811 808 801 794 794 0 337 334 329 323 323 0 186.73 231.1 2/3/2018 10:30:59
11 783 781 776 771 0 0 314 312 308 304 0 0 180.49 231.1 2/3/2018 10:31:05

[tazman]

Thank you for posting your data. I have a question or two.
I see the test was fired in February. I assume it was fired outdoors. What was the temperature when the test was fired?
Do you happen to know the cylinder gap measurement on your revolver?
In past tests I have found CFE Pistol to be a bit temperature sensitive. Not terrible by any means, but just enough to make me wonder about temperatures when test are run.
Also, it seems the expected velocities posted on the Hodgdon data site may be a little bit optimistic for CFE Pistol. As usual, different guns give different results.
The fact remains that lots of people are getting good, consistent accuracy with CFE Pistol powder. I really like the results I get with it.

[slam45]

temp as i recall was in the 50-55 range, western Oregon i mild in winter, though not near as wet as it should be lately... the 625 cylinder gap is 0.004 i to find it to be useful in several pistols and very good in the PCC...

[tazman]

That temp is a lot different than what I normally get here. In February, I usually have temps in the teens or lower. Big difference.

[jonp]

Thanks for the data, guys. I am going to buy a pound at the next gunshow to try it out. I'm still playing with the IMR Target and highly recommend it but this powder seems pretty good