9mm +P+, what pistol can shoot it?

[Gray Fox]

I was digging through an old stash of stuff and came across 2 boxes of 9mm 115 grain JHP factory +P+, one Federal, one from an LEA Winchester restricted issue. I had been doing some LEA-related instructing over 10 years ago and was often told to take any left over ammo with me because the agencies hated to do the paperwork to put stuff back into inventory. My question is, what pistol can this stuff be fired in safely? If I recall there was/is no real standard definition of what +P+ pressure actually is. I was thinking perhaps the 9mm cylinder in a Ruger .357/9mm convertible might be safe. What say you folks? GF

[tazman]

What guns were the officers using to shoot the stuff?
I recently called Springfield armory and asked them about +P 9mm(not +P+). their response was to shoot a few now and then but not to make a steady diet of it. That technically, all their 9mm pistols are rated for +P. They would prefer you didn't do it all the time.

[Outpost75]

Ruger Blackhawk Convertible will eat that stuff three meals a day and midnight snack with no issues.

[Walks]

I remember my FAMILY loading very hot 9mm Handloads for the surplus P-38 & P-08 pistols in the 1950's-'60's. American made 9mm Luger didn't always function these guns. No problems with the Canadian made Hi-Powers.

Of course you can shoot just about any 9mm Load in a RUGER BLACKHAWK .357 Convertible's 9mm cylinder.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've shot the 115 gr. Winchester +P+ "law enforcement only" stuff in Beretta 92's with no ill effects. I've seen the same round damage an early model Kahr MK9 but only after several hundred rounds.

I wouldn't make a habit of shooting that stuff in any pistol over a long term, I think it was meant to be used as carry ammo and not practice ammo. I don't believe two boxes would cause serious harm to a modern full size, 9mm pistol in good condition. I would refrain from shooting +P+ in something like an old aluminum framed Walther P-1, a 60 year old Star model B or some pocket pistol chambered in 9mm.

[Wheelguns 1961]

I think the blackhawk convertible would handle it, and you wouldn’t have to pick up the brass.

[35remington]

Under warranty for the record?

Nothing I am aware of.

Nearly all manufacturers I am aware of specifically disclaim coverage of +P+ ammo due to no SAAMI standard adherence. So they say “don’t shoot it in your gun.”

That is the typical official response. No one on the gun manufacturing side of the equation sanctions it.

[ShooterAZ]

Maybe the Uzi?

[oger]

Mp-40

[Gray Fox]

If it came from the one shoot I recall I think it was a variation of the H&K USP. They also had some of the pre-issue .45 USPs with cans and about a pallet of ammo and let us try to burn up a bunch of it. There were also H&K MP5s with the integral suppressed barrel, but I doubt the +P+ stuff was fired in them, just the 147 grain subsonic loads. It was a fun day for us on the staff once the class was done. Lots of brass to pick up, though, and they let me haul it away, too! GF

[WebMonkey]

i'd put them in the 9mm cylinder of my blackhawk without any concern.
;)

[RU shooter]

When I carried a 9mm on duty in the late 80's I used a glock 19 and shot a a few boxes of the federal 115 +p+ in it with no ill effects also shot it in a Taurus 92 . Friend did the same in his ruger p85 . If it's just a box or two most quality full size pistols shouldn't have an issue with them .

[GhostHawk]

Hipoint C9 is plus P rated.

https://www.kygunco.com/Product/View?ItemNo=54646

Hi-Point C-9 special features:

100% American parts and assembly
On / off thumb safety
Magazine disconnect safety
Last round lock open
+P rated
Hi-Point lifetime unconditional warranty
Includes 8-round magazine, trigger lock and extra rear peep sight
Made in the USA

152$ at Kentucky Gun.

[RU shooter]

Not knocking hi point on their quality BUT and a big but it's just ugly as sin

[lefty o]

its really not recommended in the browning hi power, as you only break the barrel lug that is swaged into the frame ONCE! a few isnt going to hurt one, but a steady diet is not so good.

[Shingle]

Any modern 9mm service weapon will handle it the +p+ is not as hot as you think im sure your average reloader has made that class.

[Texas by God]

Ruger P89.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Catshooter]

Any Glock or H&K will handle +P+ with ease.


Cat

[Traffer]

I would not hesitate to shoot it in my Norinco 213.

[Forrest r]

Any firearm that's "nato" approved will eat a steady diet of them.

Glock 17 & 19, sig 226 & 228, CZ- P01 & 75b, beretta m9 come to mind.

[9.3X62AL]

Any firearm that's "nato" approved will eat a steady diet of them.

Glock 17 & 19, sig 226 & 228, CZ- P01 & 75b, beretta m9 come to mind.

The current service load for the 9mm pistols is a stalwart one--124 grain bullets running in the 1235-1250 FPS bracket. This has been pretty standard for European 9mm pistols since just about forever. It has been American ammo companies that have down-loaded the 9 x 19 Parabellum out of concern that Euro-spec ammo might find its way into wheezy and less vigorous nominal 9mm pistols with OEM cartridges other than & lesser than 9 x 19.

[Combat Diver]

Used to shoot that stuff all the time in my Beretta 92 and CZ 75/85s. Limited number in my Simth 6906. Still carry a mag or two of it in my G19.

CD

[Thumbcocker]

I have some of that stuff and was thinking of trying it in the CZ75 BD but have been a little squeamish about it.

[GhostHawk]

Not knocking hi point on their quality BUT and a big but it's just ugly as sin

In my book Ugly is as Ugly does. A good looking gun that consistently has a problem loading the second or third round would be terminally ugly to me.

I will admit that Hipoints won't win any constest based on good looks.

But when it comes to reliable, inexpensive yeah they do it for me.
In fact they care so little about what they look like that it becomes a positive for me.f

Function is all, image is nothing. I can live with that.

[DuaneH]

I see a lot of speculation with no real pressure data. The OP mentioned Winchester 9mm 115 gr. LE agency loads. My father retired from the Illinois State Police in 1986, and this was the issue load for their S&W M39 at that time.
228826228827

I would be comfortable shooting a 40,000 CUP load in a Blackhawk, due to the fully supported case head in that gun. I personally would not run it through a semi-auto.

[RU shooter]

I see a lot of speculation with no real pressure data. The OP mentioned Winchester 9mm 115 gr. LE agency loads. My father retired from the Illinois State Police in 1986, and this was the issue load for their S&W M39 at that time.
228826228827

I would be comfortable shooting a 40,000 CUP load in a Blackhawk, due to the fully supported case head in that gun. I personally would not run it through a semi-auto.
Apparently the ISP had no issues Firing it in their semi autos

[Catshooter]

Apparently the ISP had no issues Firing it in their semi autos

:) I think he kinda made a point there without meaning to.


Cat

[Forrest r]

FWIW:

The late 80's the glock Armorers manual lists the 17/19 as being rated for 43,500psi. That's with the glock un-supported chambers.

Winchester had/has some pretty hot 9mm ammo. They sold mountains of the stuff.
ww's ranger-t series that is 42,000cup rated
http://www.winchesterle.com/Lists%2FCatalogAmmo%2FAttachments%2F13%2FRA9TA.pdf
That 42,000cup ammo being tested in a glock 19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSY018CXRi8
You can buy that same ammo for $28 a box (ra9ta)
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/61176

That (ra9ta) winchester ammo is pretty popular and has been used in countless makes/mfg's of different firearms. Anyway there's a ton of video's out there showing shooter's using hot 9mm ammo, do a search on winchester ranger t-series ammo. You'll see anything from taurus's to berska's shooting/using that 42,000cup ammo.

I'm not telling anyone to use or not use anything. Just pointing out that +p+ ammo has been around for decades and still is being used to this day. I do find it surprising that this thread/website came up with it's a "ruger" only ammo when countless 1000's of le agencies using 1,000,000's of firearms that weren't rugers have used this ammo for decades. Let along the ammo in question is actually mild compared to the modern winchester ra9ta ammo (42,000cup vs 40,000cup) that has been fling off the shelves/bought up fast/extremely popular for years.

[Sailormilan2]

One the back of my box Winchester(RA9115P+) has is this warning, "These cartridges are loaded to specifications that require higher velocity and pressure than conventional 9mm Luger cartridges: average pressures is 20-25% higher(approximately 40,000 C.U.P.) than industry standard pressure for 9mm Luger."

[DocSavage]

I've had several Ruger semi autos and the instruction manuals all said that their semi autos are designed with all 9mm in mind be it NATO,SAAMI or CIP. I would think the CZ 75 family of pistols would be as sturdy being all steel.

[35remington]

The problem is that +P+ is neither SAAMI standard nor NATO nor CIP, so as I said before, it is not endorsed officially nor warranted. So therefore not “all” 9mm ammo is endorsed if it does not fall into those categories. +P+ does not.

I have read a lot of Ruger manuals myself. I can trot out any number of them that tell you very specifically not to use +P+ ammo. Just quoting the source here.

The caution not to use it is highlighted in red letters. Obviously they want to get your attention and desire that particular message to be clearly understood.

[Time Killer]

It will shoot in most 9mm. In the limited amount that you have not much to worry about. If feed a steady diet of this type of ammo is used some autos will start to malfunction due to wear faster than others.

[revolvergeek]

I have shot the 115 9BPLE +p+ Federal load in Glocks, Beretta 92s and a couple Hi Powers (*with heavy aftermarket recoil springs in the BHP) with no ill effects.

[Rodfac]

I see no reason to accelerate the wear on any of my 9's that use of +P+ ammunition entails. Stephen Camp, the long time guru of all things pertaining to Browning Hi-Powers, cautioned against any +P use in the earlier guns. (Mkl and Mkll's). In his own use, IIRC, he used a stiffer than issue recoil spring to mitigate against battering when using any ammunition that approached max velocities. With today's boutique bullets, at a buck a piece, standard pressure ammunition should do all that a 9 is capable of...IMHO...YMMV, Rod

[Forrest r]

The problem is that +P+ is neither SAAMI standard nor NATO nor CIP, so as I said before, it is not endorsed officially nor warranted. So therefore not “all” 9mm ammo is endorsed if it does not fall into those categories. +P+ does not.

I have read a lot of Ruger manuals myself. I can trot out any number of them that tell you very specifically not to use +P+ ammo. Just quoting the source here.

The caution not to use it is highlighted in red letters. Obviously they want to get your attention and desire that particular message to be clearly understood.

Try the lcr manual

[35remington]

Many warn against it. Read your owners manual and find out.

Have not read the LCR manual. By all means photocopy and paste their approval of +P+ with your phone camera if you can do so.

[sparkyv]

Ruger Blackhawk Convertible will eat that stuff three meals a day and midnight snack with no issues.


^^^This^^^

[35remington]

For example, Smith and Wesson specifically warns against the use of +P+ in its full size, or any size for that matter, 9mm autoloading pistols. FWIW.

Read your owner’s manual and decide if you want to pay attention to warnings or not.

[Broomstraw]

There are several sites where this ammo is for sale today. After a quick cursory search, I was surprised at the number of companies that make +P+ ammo. My experience with +P+ has been used in Full Auto guns. Uzi's love HOT ammo. To me, it improves the cyclic rate. The same with the H&K MP5. Personally, why would you want to shoot this ammo? Maybe if you had a Single Shot pistol and had ONE shot. Shot recovery from the blast and muzzle flip would take more time which in turn would delay a second shot on target.

[Sailormilan2]

I loaded a batch of 9mm+P+ for my 1911 9mms. I think it makes them function a bit better, especially since the main springs and slides are set up for 10mm.

[tazman]

Many warn against it. Read your owners manual and find out.

Have not read the LCR manual. By all means photocopy and paste their approval of +P+ with your phone camera if you can do so.

The Ruger manual for the LCR is available as an online download. When it talks about ammunition, it doesn't mention any higher pressure ammunition specifically at all. It just says that 9mm ammunition is made to different tolerances and pressures worldwide and that all are safe to use in the gun. It says that some ammunition will develop pierced primers and that if that problem occurs, that particular ammunition should not be used due to operator safely reasons.
They also mention lead boolits for use in the LCR. They said to keep an eye on the chambers since the lead boolits can shave off a ring and deposit it at the front of the chamber, making cartridges hard to load completely.
Apparently they are not worried about high pressure factory loads in this revolver.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

2 boxes of 9mm 115 grain JHP factory +P+, one Federal, one from an LEA Winchester restricted issue.
If I had these two boxes, I'd save them.

[JBinMN]

Posted not to start or create argument, but for informational purposes for those who wish to know more...

I happen to have an LCR in 357M here, but have no need to use +P+ ammo in any of my 9mm.s, or any firearm I have for that matter.
But I was curious to re-read the LCR manual, as I did not remember anything in it regarding +P+, as well as like I said, have no interest in using +P+ at all.

Just as I was "curious" in reading this topic for "informational purposes".
;)

Here is the Ruger LCR manual from their website:
http://ruger-docs.s3.amazonaws.com/_manuals/lcr.pdf

Tazman pretty well covered what Ruger has to say in their manual for the 9mm LCR, but I copy/pasted here from Page 13 to quote:


AMMUNITION INFORMATION
RUGER® LCR® REVOLVERS
CHAMBERED IN 9MM LUGER

NOTE: A package of three 9mm moon clips are supplied with the revolver and
are required to allow proper ejection of the 9mm rimless cases.
See “SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR 9mm MOON CLIPS” on page 18. The
RUGER®
LCR® chambered in 9mm Luger is only compatable with the 9mm
Luger cartridge. Do not use any other 9mm cartridges (9mm Short, 9mm
Bergmann, etc.). RUGER®
LCR®
revolvers are designed for use with
cartridges of the correct caliber which are manufactured in accordance with the
U.S. Industry Standards. Be certain to use proper cartridges of the correct caliber.
See page 23 (“Care and Cleaning”) for important information on chamber
cleaning.
Because 9mm cartridges are manufactured worldwide for use in pistols, revolvers,
and submachine guns, it is possible to encounter cartridges which, when fired,
develop pierced primers. If this occurs, discontinue the use of the particular
brand or type of ammunition. The possibility of a pierced primer is another
reason why a shooter should always wear eye protection. Use only metal jacketed
bullets in 9mm revolvers. When a lead bullet is fired, its base expands and a ring
of lead is shaved off and deposited in the shoulder area of the chamber. A buildup
of lead rings can prevent proper chambering of cartridges, so routine, proper
cleaning is very important (see “Care and Cleaning” page 23).
Also note that some ammunition may not securely crimp the bullet in the
cartridge. An improperly crimped bullet will move forward in the cartridge. This
will only become an issue if the round moves forward enough to protrude out of
the front of the cylinder. Should this happen, the cylinder will not be able to
index to fire as the nose of the bullet will hit the outside of the barrel or frame.
Should this happen, discontinue use of that particular brand or type of
ammunition.

I still do not feel the need for the +P+, but everyone is different. So ... Do as ya like, it is Your choice to make.
:)

[35remington]

I read that as NO +P+ for the LCR as well, as there are no industry standards for it by SAAMI, CIP or anyone else. They stated that ammo manufactured to industry standards was okay.

Don’t see where they said all types and pressure levels were safe to use, just those manufactured to US standards.

I have not heard of anyone specifically condoning +P+ in a factory manual. Since there are no pressure standards for it, the reason why they do not is pretty obvious.

[GONRA]

GONRA is amazed that today's 9mm pistol manufacturer's don't STRONGLY mention
"shoot only CLEARLY IDENTIFIED SEALED BOX commercial ammo"!
There is some really hi pressure military ammo (for example, for SMG's)
that is for your cartridge collection, nothing else.

Really Bad News Example: Hirtenberger Patronen L7A1 ammunition.

[RED BEAR]

i was always under the impression that there is not really any such thing as +p+. it is really just +p ammo that the manufacturer is trying to make sure that people realize it is +p. any gun in good shape that can handle +p should be fine.

[35remington]

What is commonly seen in instruction manuals:

“While XYZ brand gun is approved for use with +P ammo, usage will accelerate wear on the gun.”

Quote.

What I have yet to see in a manual sent out with any gun:

“While XYZ brand gun is approved with +P+ ammo, usage will accelerate wear on the gun.”

I have often seen +P ammo specifically approved for use by mentioning it specifically, which is the non ambiguous way to do it. I have never seen a manual for a firearm specifically approve +P+ in such an unambiguous way. If read correctly, approval for use of +P+ is nowhere to be found.

As I said, it is understandable why that is not seen in owners manuals for the firearm.

Up to you to decide if that means what it says or not, or to try to find approval in something not specifically endorsed.

[razorfish]

I have a pistol that’s Factory designed to shoot this ammo. It’s an STI 2011 Trubor. In USPSA we call it 9 major. I load HS-6 under a 115 grain bullet and get just under 1500 fps (172 Power Factor). It’s a lightly compressed load designed to create lots of gas for the compensator.

http://www.semperfiarms.com/STI/TruBor/TruBor.html

[dragon813gt]

i was always under the impression that there is not really any such thing as +p+. it is really just +p ammo that the manufacturer is trying to make sure that people realize it is +p. any gun in good shape that can handle +p should be fine.

This is incorrect. There’s no SAAMI specs for +p+. On paper it means more pressure than +p. But since there’s no standard it’s a guess as to what you’re getting. A gun that can handle +p doesn’t mean it can handle +p+. I know I have a few that specifically say not to shoot +p+ in it.

An open gun is designed to shoot 9 major. They’re one of the few where I would feel comfortable feeling it a steady diet of greater than +p rounds.

[RED BEAR]

if there is no standard i can't believe that ammo companies would load anything over the sammi recomended pressure . i can't remember what issue but i believe the american rifleman had some thoughts on +p+. even buffalo bore ammo is all with in sammi specs.

[35remington]

9 major is not really comparing apples to apples here. We are not talking about race guns and non pressure tested handloads for most people, which is how experimenters run 9mm major, but rather factory guns most of us commonly buy.

Variations in chamber support and overall loaded length are a factor. In factory guns neither may be optimized, making deliberate hot rodding a bad idea. It would be beneficial to recognize that if one decides he can craft super hot ammo faster than can be bought.

[35remington]

If Buffalo Bore is within SAAMI spec, it isn’t really Plus P Plus, then, is it?

In making that point I remind that there is no SAAMI spec for Plus P Plus. It either falls within that standard of Plus P or it does not.

It is a pressure standard.

That being said, slide velocity is a function of bullet weight and velocity. It is possible for a load to get a bit higher velocity at industry acceptable pressure if it is run to the upper end of the limit.

[35remington]

And once again I am talking about what the manufacturers officially condone and what they will tell you in writing and in person.

You do what you want to do. Your decision, not mine.

[Cast_outlaw]

Ruger p89 is a +p+ rated gun I’ve maxed out 158g cast at 1100fps it’s been taking it for over 20 years if I go up .1gr on the load it ruins the cases and it won’t fit in the shell holder in my press any more

[Forrest r]

I read that as NO +P+ for the LCR as well, as there are no industry standards for it by SAAMI, CIP or anyone else. They stated that ammo manufactured to industry standards was okay.

Don’t see where they said all types and pressure levels were safe to use, just those manufactured to US standards.

I have not heard of anyone specifically condoning +P+ in a factory manual. Since there are no pressure standards for it, the reason why they do not is pretty obvious.

I'm sure you do read it as no.

Other's like myself read it as yes, probably has something to do with the use of the 9mm ammo mfg'd for submachine guns.

In your post #31 you clearly stated
"The caution not to use it is highlighted in red letters. Obviously they want to get your attention and desire that particular message to be clearly understood."

For some odd reason there is no "red" warning in the lcr manual for the 9mm about the use of p+ or +p+ ammo If you read the ruger lc9s manual you will see that they clearly "in red" have a no +p+ warning.

Odd that ruger puts a "red" +p+ warning for 1 firearm but doesn't for another. Heck the ruger SR 9mm manual doesn't have a "red" +p+ warning either.

[Forrest r]

It's a bad day when you can't shoot/use LE 9mm ammo in a ruger lcr or a sr, but you can in a $200 hi-point pistol.

Hate to say it but the ruger blackhawk manual using the same wording for the 9mm cylinders as they do for the lcr 9mm revolver.

Page #15
"Because 9mm cartridges are manufactured worldwide for use in pistols, revolvers, and
submachine guns, it is possible to encounter cartridges which, when fired,
develop pierced primers. If this occurs, discontinue the use of the particular
brand or type of ammunition. The possibility of a pierced primer is another
compelling reason why a shooter should always wear protective glasses to shield
his eyes."

I guess that means that you can't use the LE 9mm ammo in the lcr's or the blackhawk's.

[35remington]

Call ‘em and find out if you are confused about their meaning. Best guess is they will say no to ammo that does not have a defined standard.

They did say ammo loaded to US standards was approved and we know +P+ is not loaded to any standard, so my reading of no into their statement is done by paying attention to what was printed rather than taking inference from something else.

Heck, I’ll give them a call if that helps someone.

The SR9 manual says ammo loaded to SAAMI or CIP standards is approved. To think that includes +P+ is a mistake in reading or understanding that +P+ has no standards. So no to that pistol as well in terms of specific endorsement.

Glock does not recommend it either. This is playing out as I suggested it would. Again just speaking about what the manufacturers of the guns say about what to do.

If the wording is the same for the Blackhawk the company line is NO for that one as well. No surprise there.

If Hi Point states specifically that their guns can run +P+ I would be fascinated to see it. Statements like the type found earlier about the LCR will not be very convincing because they give no such endorsement. I suspect Hi Point says something similar and gives no endorsement.

The fail is the suggestion that ammo loaded to standards is approved. Ergo, +P+ is clearly not.

My point is simply this: Since Plus P Plus has no standards, asking a manufacturer to approve its use when the maker of the ammo’s idea of “safe pressures” may markedly deviate from the firearm maker’s idea of “safe pressures” is something they are just not going to do. Understandably so.

After being informed, what you do next is personal choice. Free world out there, at least most of the time.

[jmort]

I have a couple 9mm LCRs
I am good with standard pressure loads
I call (whatever does not get me in trouble for language) on the "Blackhawk could not take +P+"
My LC9s Pros' manuals say +P ok, but that a lot of them will accelerate wear.
My 9mm Ruger American says unlimited +P but now Ruger has a recall on those.
There are plenty of good standard pressure ammunition choices.

"The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,001 psi) piezo pressure. The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi) piezo pressure. An empty case with primer weighs about 4 g (0.14 oz)."

So there is no +P+ standard, but you would think it is around 40k psi.
At that point, I would not shoot it. Makes no sense to me. I see no need.
I would go with the .357 Sig.

[tazman]

Personally, I have never seen the need to load a cartridge beyond it's original design. I have seen many do this over the years with uniformly poor to disastrous results.
If you want more power, get a gun with a more powerful cartridge. Why risk a perfectly good firearm by loading beyond the cartridge limitations?

[35remington]

Again, the point I am making is whether the maker of the gun wants you to use hot ammo, or not.

What you shoot is personal choice. If you do what you do after gathering all relevant information....that is all one can expect. No one controls what you choose to do.

No one suggested the Blackhawk could not ever take hotter ammo. What was stated is it is pretty clear Ruger does not recommend Plus P Plus in it for understandable reasons, so I see nothing to disagree with in anything I did say.

[AggieEE]

It's my understanding, I could be wrong, that +P+ pressures are less than or equal to proof loads. That said, do you really want to feed your gun a steady diet of proof loads? It may take it but for how long?

[Forrest r]

The op asked about le 9mm ammo and what firearm it could safely be used in.

After 3 pages of this thread, apparently the only "safe" firearm is a custom rig designed for major ammo.

Tends to make me wonder why:
Le's aren't issued these special rigs??? Why are we putting their lives/safety in danger by not only giving them this dangerous ammo to use & then giving them something like a glock to use it in? Why do I keep seeing countless posts about don't use reloads for sd/ccw or you'll be hiring a lawyer. Use whatever your local le's use seeings how the le ammo is so dangerous. Why do all those le turn-ins sell like hotcakes when they hit the market after having all the damage & pre-mature wear from using the dangerous le ammo?

I'm not telling anyone to use any ammo.

I just think it's impressive that truckloads of this high pressure le 9mm ammo has been used for decades by countless 1000's of le officials in common firearms that you & I can buy pretty much anywhere. A box of the older lower pressured ammo comes up on this website in this thread (old ='s 40,000psi vs new 42,000psi) & no one can figure out what firearm to use it in.

Might be a good thing the next time you ask a local le officer what ammo they use. Go 1 step further and ask them what firearm was issued to them to use it in.

[jmort]

Disagree, not exactly what is in this thread. Specific firearms mentioned and the usual thread drift. And now no firearm mentioned, and an thread autopsy which is ironic.
I will agree with the P89s, but I am biased. Mine seem bullet-proof.

[35remington]

What was discussed was whether the manufacturer warrants or recommends the use of Plus P Plus.

None do. In that context, the information is yours to do with as you please, and for you to make some decision about what it means in relation to your planned future use of the gun

Is that really that unacceptable given lots of people will make their own final decision on the matter that suits them? Pointing out the realities of manufacturer recommendations does not prevent anyone from doing anything. Just gives them something to think about.

Given that truth, there is little to argue with or get upset about.

I think the implication that +P+ ammo is used by the majority or even a significantly large percentage of LE agencies needs some corroboration before it can be discussed as a “given.” I suspect its usage is in the very small minority by LE as a whole, but then I do not have country wide stats on the matter either.

Best guess on my part is +P+ is talked about way more than it is shot by LE nation wide. I am not aware that the FBI issues +P+ to the rank and file in preference to lower power ammo, for instance.

If someone knows about significant numbers of LE entities issuing +P+ in quantity by all means give a lowdown on who and the guns they are shooting it in as that would be information of use.

[RED BEAR]

35 REMINGTON that is my point exactly name me one company that loads over saami specs. +p+ is a marketing thing it is no difference between it and +p. after reading this thread i would say that the marketing worked well. there is not a company anywhere that will load over the accepted limits. if you can find one let me know i might buy some before they are sued out of existence

[Texas by God]

Imported in the late 80s/early 90s; Hirteberger Patrone +P+ 100gr fp lived up to the hype. We fired 49 rounds thru a Star 30M and the recoil resembled .357 125 Rem hp from a Security Six. No way would I shoot it in my Taurus 92 or Astra 600/43 back then. They were HOT.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181111/38f27e9ee2245307e671dcb920534fbf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181111/65ac461d64a5f9a4a59a798c7fe94783.jpg

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[9.3X62AL]

Jmort--right you are, those Ruger P89s are TANKS. I have run some STALWART 30 Luger loads from my pistol, using its swap barrel and the 9mm recoil spring. LOUD--and flat-shooting like a 22-250.

Our 2 "carry" 9mms are both SIG-Sauers, a P-226 and a P-228. Our ammo of choice is labeled as "+P", whatever that is. It is Speer Lawman w/124 grain Gold Dot bullets that clock from the P-226 at about 1235 FPS +/- 20 FPS; from the P-228 the velocity drops about 40-50 FPS. Per my armorer, both pistols will run this Euro-spec ammo for 5,000 rounds before a refit is recommended. In heavy service (like a military unit or police department) an owner should expect 4 more 5K round cycles after the first refit, and should consider retirement at the 25K round count. "Refit" at 5K includes replacement of recoil spring and guide rod, replacement of small springs in the decocking mechanism, and overall inspection for undue wear or receiver cracks. At 10K round count, hammer spring and strut and often the barrel are replaced, in addition to the springs replaced at 5K. I am not real worried about the pistols--if they break, I'll replace them. The P-226 is at about 8K rounds total, with one refit under its belt.

[farmbif]

I feed my g22 gen4 with storm lake 9mm barrel nothing but the hottest of handloads and never had a problem, gun still in perfect cond.

[ebner glocken]

Anybody have any experience with underwood +p+? I've fired it in my G19 and CZ75 with no issues but in limited quanity. Yes, it's hot but no pierced primers or any of the sort of thing that would scare you into not shooting it at all in a decently strong pistol. I am hesitant to shoot it in the kel tecs. using 124 and 115 gr.

Ebner

[jmort]

I have ordered it, but I found that really did not change that much. Shot in a P89.
I like both the Lehigh Defender and Penetrator bullets that Underwood loads. I buy also buy the bullets directly from Lehigh. But I did just get a box full of boxes of ammunition from Underwood. Especially for the .380 ACPs that get pocket carried. At this point, beginning to favor the Penetrators. Standard pressure Penetrators seem to be the best all around.

[ebner glocken]

I have not tried the LeHigh yet but did see a youtube video from .22plinkster where he put one in 10mm through a teller window. Not too many handguns will do that, perhaps too much of a good thing in a public setting. The 9mm +p+ 115 or 124 or the 10mm 200 JHP underwood is what I've been carrying for awhile now.

Ebner

[jmort]

Here it is

https://youtu.be/WDvzul3rvTk

[jmort]

If you are worried about over-penetration, standard pressure Lehigh Defender is just right. I tend to want through and through.
BTW, I have seen the 10mm shoot through level 3A body armor

[Clark]

231242

In 1999 I started reloading. Nearly the first thing I did was try to work up to destruction in 9mm with every possible pistol powder and bullet.

The thumbnail take home would look like:

1) Usually the first thing to fail in a 9mm work up is the brass blows out down the feed ramp.
This is because the feed ramp intrusion is typically 0.19" and the web of a 9mm case is typically 0.16"
Here are some measurements of some 9 mm feed ramp instructions.
Glock 19: 0.190"
Star M43 0.165"
CZ52 Czech aftermarket barrel 0.145"
Tokarev Chinese 9mm barrel 0.160"
Beretta 92 0.163"
kel-tec P11 0.190"
kel-tec PF9 0.190"
S&W 659 0.183"
Star BM 0.215"
Star Super B 0.193"

That case blow out down a 0.19" feed ramp intrusion will typically happen with ~~50% extra powder. All powders are different, and AA#5 and HS-6 make trouble much sooner than Unique or Power Pistol.

+P+ has ~ 10% more powder.

Comparing +P+ with handloads over the chronograph:
Kel-Tec PF9 3" barrel
a) 124 gr Hornady bullets and 10 gr Power Pistol. 1336 fps.
b) 100 gr Hirtenberger +P+ 1275 fps

But the strength of the 9mm pistol is not the practical limit for powder charges... the real practical limit is caused by......

2) Recoil
The forward momentum of the projectile and gas causes a reaction in gun and shooter's arm movement.
About half the calculated momentum is coupled to the slide and barrel velocity with respect to the frame velocity.
This difference in momentum MV can be equated to and energy 1/2 mv^2 in slide kinetic energy with respect to the frame.
That energy would ideally be stored in the recoil spring. As the powder charge is increased, the spring force should be increased.
Before the limit of case blowout is reached the spring force needed becomes prohibitive:
1) Few men have the grip strength to chamber a round
2) The slide accelerated forward so fast the magazine spring can not push up another round fast enough and the chamber comes up empty. This requires double mag springs, the few have the thumb strength to load.
3) The disconnection in the semi auto trigger may not reset that fast. Glocks will need to get the New York trigger.


231243
In this picture I have plotted force to push back a slide and force returning the slide in a semi auto pistol, measured with a force gauge. The hysteresis is caused by both cocking the hammer effort and by friction
231244
Here I depect and inadequate recoil spring allowing the slide to hammer the frame. This is bad for the pistol, the shooter's joints and nerves. That is compared to a recoil spring that matches the ammo. Recoil is pleasant and empty cases land 5 feet away.