Old double barrel question...

[Kev18]

I have an old double barrel made in Belgium. Paid it 100$ at a gun show a couple years ago. it was made around the 1890's. My question is: How do I know if it is safe to shoot high brass loads? I would like to shoot buckshot atleast. For now I shoot low brass reloads and commercial 7.5. Just those knock me on my ****! Im not sure how to know if the barrel is safe for those hotter loads.

[megasupermagnum]

Generally the stock is more the concern than the barrel, assuming they are not Damascus steel. Heavy recoil can crack the old wood stocks.

[Markopolo]

Before you do anything, get the gun checked out by someone in the know. Know what type of barrel you have first of all, because that will tell you if it’s safe to shoot at all, even with a great stock. Old guns, especially shotguns can be down right dangerous, and the 100 bucks you paid for it will seem like a pittance compared to a life, limb, or eye.

Just my 2 cents, and warning.

[RMc]

Understand that "low brass" commercial loads ie. Dove loads, trap, skeet, etc. use faster burning powders than heavy loads and develop top end pressures for modern smokeless loads.
Have the gun checked out professionally!

[Bob9863]

This is how I test them when shooting a questionable home load creation. [smilie=1:

228708

But it's not for the feint of heart, generally most testing is an eyeball test although with an experienced eye.
I've safety tested thousands of rifles in the service and it's go no go gauge some safety testing of sears etc and visual inspection for cracks, stress and a mandrel down the barrel to check straitness.
And non of that is a guarantee, unless you ultrasound the barrel looking for hidden cracks, I've seen anyone even dye penetrating test one, it's a check if safety's, lockup and tightness, function and general wear of parts.

Unless you get it proof tested then the best you will get is an it's probably alright.

The biggest thing with a SxS especially an old one is the bite, if it's center or left of center, especially left of center there's a problem, is there play in the action I.e can you wiggle the barrels side to side any when the action is closed.
Other then that it's check the proof marks make sure it's good for smokeless, what it was proofed to and what it's chambered for.

And if there is doubt like asking this question, check all those things and if it's ok and you want to be sure do as in the photos with a half dozen or so of mini mag shells and if it handles them without blowing up, busting, splitting or cracking.
High brass is irrelivent when it comes to fitting, they will fit in any shotgun that is chambered in the same length shell.
12ga loads both 2 3/4" and 3" are tested to 11,500psi and most old guns were tested to 12,300psi and that test is good for the life of the gun unless altered or on visual inspection one of the following is found.

Rivels (small ‘waves’ left in the metal where it has not sprung back into shape)

Bulges (bigger areas of expansion, usually where the metal is thin)

Cracks (in the chambers, action or lumps)

Coming off the face (the side to side play)

Lumps (dovetail lumps can become loose or even detach)

I view the average gunsmith inspection the same way as I view having my car serviced by a mechanic, unless I know and trust them then I have to recheck everything anyway as it's inevitably a half hearted tick and flick usually by the most junior person or apprentice on the lowest wage thinking about how longs left until knock off.

[Bulldogger]

Proof marks on the underside of the action lump are the first place to look. It's possible it is nitro-proofed, but it is unlikely. Even if it is, it is of an age that micro-cracks and pits are possible, and the action could be compromised but look fine.

I agree with the recommendation to have it looked at by a professional, if you intend to put it to use with smokeless loads regularly. Plenty of people have fired smokeless in old Damascus doubles with no ill-effects, but plenty does not equal all, and no one wants to aid that negative statistic if they can help it.

Bulldogger

[bikerbeans]

There is reduced pressure smokeless load data meant for the old damacus shotguns that are in good condition. I would search with google or wait for our resident antique doubles guru to chime in.

BB

[725]

? made in the 1890's ? i'd stick with the powders available then. ie: black powder

[Kev18]

I have shot it plenty with the low brass loads as mentioned above, but Im just not sure with any other stuff. I only paid it 100$, im not worried for the gun, its more about me.

[Bob9863]

Trap loads (unless specific low pressure loads) are the same psi as standard 2 3/4" buckshot 2 3/4" loads, so if you have shot heaps of low brass trap loads then buckshot is fine.

[Kev18]

Trap loads (unless specific low pressure loads) are the same psi as standard 2 3/4" buckshot 2 3/4" loads, so if you have shot heaps of low brass trap loads then buckshot is fine.

I dont have low brass buckshot, I have the remington high brass ones. The come in little boxes of 5.

[ascast]

my 2 cents-
1) do not try to guess pressure by the height of the brass shell
2) any twist steel might have handled "high brass" ((whatever that means)) shells in 1910, but that was 100 plus years ago. Rust any other corrosive action NEVER sleep. It is not as good now as it once was. Stick tp BP pressure, or less.
I have a pristine '89 Remington with hammers in the other room that my brother thought was OK with low brass. He was wrong.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Generally Damascus barrels have a Brown Paisley Pattern on the barrels, as opposed to a blued finish like later model shotguns have.

IF this doesn't make sense take it to a gunsmith and have him look at it.

In any case I would avoid heavy buckshot and slug loads at all cost anyway simply because the will knock the snot out of you.
Normal Dove /Trap Loads are running between 1150 and 1200 fps. Low Recoil Buck and Slug loads are up to about 1300 fps. Anything above that is going to be real unpleasant to shoot.

I have some Federal Power Shot Maximum 1oz. Slugs at 1610 FPS. These have a higher Taylor Knock Out Value than a .458 Win Mag with a 500 gr bullet at 2150 FPS. I have shot exactly 2 of these in my life and that resulted in 3 trips to my Chiropractor to get my shoulder re-located.

Point being, you don't need to shoot heavy loads like this unless you are going up against big animals or light pickups. Even if the gun will take it.

Randy

[webfoot10]

I see nobody said anything about chamber length in the old shotguns. Most shotguns
from the late 1800's to about 1920 had 2 1/2 in chambers. a 2 3/4 in shell will fit, but
when fired it will open in the forcing cone of the 2 1/2 in chamber, causing high chamber
pressure and the hard recoil from the gun. Check the chamber length and use the correct
shells. Any of the damascus barreled guns will have the 2 1/2 in chambers. A easy check
drop a 3 in shell into the chamber if it sticks out 1/4 in it is 2 3/4 in chamber, If it sticks
out 1/2 in it's a 2 1/2 in chamber. DON'T force the 3 in shell in and try to fire the gun. It's only
for testing chamber length. Be safe.

[RED BEAR]

low or high brass make no difference its a marketing thing you can load just as high a pressure in low brass as high brass. that not my opinion its ballistic products and they do all there own testing. x weight of shot is x weight no matter if it is bird shot or buck shot. i buy all low brass hulls unless the others are on sale and cheaper. i second having the gun checked out some of the cheaper Belgian guns have a bad reputation. as far as it being cheap i just bought a cresant double made in 1929 for the all in price of 82 dollars. finished reblueing working on stock now.

[Kev18]

Here you guys know what you're all talking about... me not so much. Im better with rifles. So I took a few pictures! :)

Shotgun in question:
https://i.imgur.com/FBlIbJu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BOO2wyI.jpg

Someone said somehting about brown on the barrel. Im not sure if thsi will help but here's the two barrels. The bluing is completely off indicated by the rust!
https://i.imgur.com/D6wrepa.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dwjRHyx.jpg

Barrel markings under the forend (not sure what these mean) :
https://i.imgur.com/tWj0VHu.jpg

A 3 inch shell in the chamber fits fine, drops in no force needed:
https://i.imgur.com/gXMrwRu.jpg

A 3-1/2 fit fine also... no force needed. Im confused.:
https://i.imgur.com/AMsAENu.jpg

I only shot 2-3/4 so far. 7-1/2 bird shot only.

[RED BEAR]

i am not sure about the 3 1/2 inch fitting but i would definitely not shoot them in it as the pressure is a lot higher on them. if you are not completely sure i would still have it looked over. with just a little work that could be a nice gun. reblueing is not that hard the trick is in the prep the nicer you get it before blueing the better it will turn out. as i said before guns from Belgium can run the gambet some great guns others not so much. i have been looking for an exposed hammer gun to make a coach gun out of.

[webfoot10]

That old Belgian shotgun will have 2 1/2 in chambers. I would use the brass shells that are made in Brazil in that gun with blackpowder.
The new plastic shells will slid right in , but don't fire them. I have one of the Husqvarna double guns with fluid steel barrels. I was shooting
the cheap walmart 2 3/4 in shells in it, and had the soldered barrel rib separate from the barrel from 2 3/4 in shells. I checked and found that
I had 2 1/2 in chambers. The brass shells are just 2 1/2 in in length, and with blackpowder you'll have no problem. By the way, Nice looking
shotgun.
webfoot10

[junkbug]

The ELG over a star inside a crown is a black powder proof. The 12-70 1s 12 gauge, 70 mm (2 3/4") chambers. 18.2 (mm) is the choke dimension. about .716" I think this means a modified choke, but I am not sure.


Here is some helpful information.

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

[Kev18]

The ELG over a star inside a crown is a black powder proof. The 12-70 1s 12 gauge, 70 mm (2 3/4") chambers. 18.2 (mm) is the choke dimension. about .716" I think this means a modified choke, but I am not sure.


Here is some helpful information.

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

2 3/4 chamber so I shouldnt shoot that length in shells... I have been for awhile. That means 2 1/2 shells it is.

[Kev18]

That old Belgian shotgun will have 2 1/2 in chambers. I would use the brass shells that are made in Brazil in that gun with blackpowder.
The new plastic shells will slid right in , but don't fire them. I have one of the Husqvarna double guns with fluid steel barrels. I was shooting
the cheap walmart 2 3/4 in shells in it, and had the soldered barrel rib separate from the barrel from 2 3/4 in shells. I checked and found that
I had 2 1/2 in chambers. The brass shells are just 2 1/2 in in length, and with blackpowder you'll have no problem. By the way, Nice looking
shotgun.
webfoot10

I shoot the 2 3/4 shells from walmart too. Now I guess if I want to live longer il buy the brass ones. I know where to get them they are just 40$ for 20 I think. Abit more expensive for me since im in Canada!

[toallmy]

You could cut and roll crimp plastic hulls to length .

[Kev18]

You could cut and roll crimp plastic hulls to length .

Thats true. I have a roll crimper! Il give it a try.

[curator]

You can also cut the crimp portion off plastic shells and use white glue to secure an over-shot wad. These work fine in break-open guns but might not feed well in pump or auto-loaders. Roll crimpers have never worked well for me with plastic hulls, Paper hulls, work fine but are increasingly rare.

[Kev18]

You can also cut the crimp portion off plastic shells and use white glue to secure an over-shot wad. These work fine in break-open guns but might not feed well in pump or auto-loaders. Roll crimpers have never worked well for me with plastic hulls, Paper hulls, work fine but are increasingly rare.

I always wanted brass shells but il cut the ones I have for now. Il see how it goes.

[W.R.Buchanan]

There is a 12/70 proof mark on both barrels. The gun is 2 3/4" but it is also a black powder gun.

Here's a hot tip: Why don't you hang it up over your mantel, and just buy something newer to shoot that you don't have to worry about.

That gun has seen better days and the pitting on the barrels is a sign that it wasn't taken very good care of. That bluing coming off the barrels isn't bluing, it is paint.

Rather than trying to shoot something from a bygone era that is of questionable condition, you might just be better off retiring it.

I personally would not fire that gun with any kind of ammo unless I was in a life or death situation and had no other options.

Randy

[St. Hogustine]

Did you ever figure out if the barrels were Damascus? I think you are on the right track with reduced loads and 2.5" shells. I'm always a little leery of 19th century Belgian shotguns, but mainly because most of the ones I see have been through at least two generations of heavy use. I have two on the wall right now, passed down in the family, split stocks and all.
Yours looks really nice!

[Uncle R.]

There is a 12/70 proof mark on both barrels. The gun is 2 3/4" but it is also a black powder gun.

Here's a hot tip: Why don't you hang it up over your mantel, and just buy something newer to shoot that you don't have to worry about.

That gun has seen better days and the pitting on the barrels is a sign that it wasn't taken very good care of. That bluing coming off the barrels isn't bluing, it is paint.

Rather than trying to shoot something from a bygone era that is of questionable condition, you might just be better off retiring it.

I personally would not fire that gun with any kind of ammo unless I was in a life or death situation and had no other options.

Randy

This. ^^^^^^^

If you value your hands and your eyes, please do not shoot that gun.

I certainly would not shoot it with any smokeless loads, whether high brass, low brass, heavy or light - not ANY smokeless loads.

Black powder might be okay if the gun were in its original condition, but it's not. Not by a long shot.
After a century of obvious neglect and wear I wouldn't want to shoot that gun even with black powder.

No competent gunsmith will give you the OK to shoot that gun in its present condition. If someone does, that's a pretty good sign you shouldn't trust their judgment.

If you're determined to shoot it, look into having those barrels lined with modern steel. Liners and a careful tightening of the action could probably make it safe to shoot.
Plan to be sitting down when you get the quote on cost.

It's a wall hanger.
Yeah, I know you've been shooting it and it hasn't blown up yet.
That doesn't mean it can't blow up on the very next shot, or the one after that.
When it does blow, it's most likely to let go right about where you fingers are.
Or perhaps I should say where you fingers used to be.

Why push your luck?
Give it an honorable retirement to decorator status and use a modern gun for shooting.

Uncle R.

[725]

hang the old girl over the mantel & tell every body it was milard philmore's white house gun. he used to shoot trap off the roof with it. :)

now that I see it has visible pits, i'd just put it on display. you'd spend more than that $100 on your first trip to the e.r.

[Kev18]

Did you ever figure out if the barrels were Damascus? I think you are on the right track with reduced loads and 2.5" shells. I'm always a little leery of 19th century Belgian shotguns, but mainly because most of the ones I see have been through at least two generations of heavy use. I have two on the wall right now, passed down in the family, split stocks and all.
Yours looks really nice!

Mine isnt cracked or anything. I am looking for another one to make into a coach gun.

[Kev18]

I know most people are telling em to use it as a wall hanger, but in all honestly that probably wont happen. Whatever I own I shoot. I own many rifles that were in worst condition then this. And they all shoot really nice. I own one or 2 modern guns. And modern I mean a mosin and sks.

[cas]

I own many rifles that were in worst condition then this. And they all shoot really nice.

Until they blow up.

[Kev18]

Until they blow up.

No, they are all fine. And all in shooting condition. Doesnt mean because something is rusted that its useless. They still work just as well as they did 130 years ago! I got one rifle that was "rusty" checked out by a gunsmith. A really reputable one. He offered to buy it off of me for 12 times what I paid it. I got it for a super cheap price, so far i have gotten good offers on it. And by no means is the rifle restored or pristine.

[RMc]

From the picture provided, the shotgun appears to have the Belgian "definitive black powder proof for breech loading guns"

http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

[Newtire]

I dont have low brass buckshot, I have the remington high brass ones. The come in little boxes of 5.the pressure developed by low brass is generated quicker and is just as high basically as your high brass loads.
If you worry about shooting Damascus vs fluid steel, you should try reading a couple of interesting articles by Sherman Bell in the Double Gun Journal entitled "Finding out for myself." I too was brought up to believe that Damascus was inherently weak and was slowly rusting between the layers etc. I have taken it upon myself to rid the shooting community of those beautiful but worthless old doubles. Just box them up & send them my way. I will make sure they don't accidentally blow up on anyone. I pay postage of course!

[megasupermagnum]

That looks like regular steel to me. Somebody must have painted it, and now it looks worse than it really is. The pitting is on the muzzle end. If it locks up tight, I don't see what the problem is. Those sidelocks are the ones known to crack the stock at the wrist. I wouldn't be shooting heavy loads in it. Guys a lot smarter than me shoot smokeless in old guns like that, you just have to be smart when loading. Take my advice for what it is though, my oldest shotgun is 1940 best I can tell.

[jaguarxk120]

Hang it up and get a much newer gun!

[Uncle R.]

I know most people are telling em to use it as a wall hanger, but in all honestly that probably wont happen. Whatever I own I shoot. I own many rifles that were in worst condition then this. And they all shoot really nice. I own one or 2 modern guns. And modern I mean a mosin and sks.

You keep shopping around for advice.
You can always find someone who will tell you what you want to hear.
Good luck.

Uncle R.

[W.R.Buchanan]

^^^^^^ what he said

Randy

[Bob9863]

From my reading of it it was made between 1923 and 1952, proofed for black powder only, 2 3/4" chambers.
On that note it's best not to shoot smokeless in it, the later make then the original 1890's estimate means the barrels are most likely stronger but still not proofed for smokeless powder.
It's actually fun looking that sort of stuff up.

[Texas by God]

If you MUST shoot it, buy 20 gauge inserts from Briley and epoxy or SuperLoktite them in. Shooting an old blackpowder shotgun with modern ammo is reckless behavior at best. My .02; your face...

[Bob9863]

Even some full length insert barrels would be great, but defeats the purpose of buying a cheap gun to start with.
I've used 20ga inserts and they do surprisingly well pattern wise if the gun has any kind of choke, the ones I've got are steel and that has to increase the strength of the chamber.

[skeettx]

If you are going to shoot it, use these:
http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/2-12-Gauge.aspx

[KCSO]

First a LOT of those were cut with 2 1/2" chambers and ANY 2 3/4 load is a danger. Second it needs to be checked by a competent gunsmith to see if it is Damascus faux Damascus or just tubing. If it is 2 3/4 which I doubt, and if it has good solid steel bores then and only then you can shoot modern shells in it. Be aware the gun will shoot loose quickly with modern loads. As few as 10 boxes and it will be off face. They were made of softer steel and were realy designed and made for B/P pressures and pressure curve.

These are the guns I shoot all the time with proper loads you just have to respect their limitations.

[Newtire]

First a LOT of those were cut with 2 1/2" chambers and ANY 2 3/4 load is a danger. Second it needs to be checked by a competent gunsmith to see if it is Damascus faux Damascus or just tubing. If it is 2 3/4 which I doubt, and if it has good solid steel bores then and only then you can shoot modern shells in it. Be aware the gun will shoot loose quickly with modern loads. As few as 10 boxes and it will be off face. They were made of softer steel and were realy designed and made for B/P pressures and pressure curve.

These are the guns I shoot all the time with proper loads you just have to respect their limitations. Some very good points. I made a chamber-checker by putting a cut off 20 gauge hull inside of a 12 gauge shell and stuck it in the chamber. When the rim of the 20 gauge hits the end of the chamber, it will telescope inwards and that's the maximum length shell you should shoot. I use a little cutoff saw blade from a dremel set in my drill press to trim the shells down. The shooting loose part was something I never really gave much thought to but I believe it now-makes sense.. After reading the articles I mentioned, I wasn't too worried about shooting shells loaded to low pressure specs. blowing up the barrels. The guy who wrote those articles did pressure testing on the loads. Interesting to note that roll crimping gave less pressure than star crimping and primers made a huge difference. Winchester primers were on the mild side and Federals gave much higher pressures. Still, you are on your own when you fool around with this stuff.

[Kev18]

Some very good points. I made a chamber-checker by putting a cut off 20 gauge hull inside of a 12 gauge shell and stuck it in the chamber. When the rim of the 20 gauge hits the end of the chamber, it will telescope inwards and that's the maximum length shell you should shoot. I use a little cutoff saw blade from a dremel set in my drill press to trim the shells down. The shooting loose part was something I never really gave much thought to but I believe it now-makes sense.. After reading the articles I mentioned, I wasn't too worried about shooting shells loaded to low pressure specs. blowing up the barrels. The guy who wrote those articles did pressure testing on the loads. Interesting to note that roll crimping gave less pressure than star crimping and primers made a huge difference. Winchester primers were on the mild side and Federals gave much higher pressures. Still, you are on your own when you fool around with this stuff.

I made a chamebr tool just like that also awhile ago. It works kinda good.

Do you think I could reload plastic modern shells with BP? I have alot of low brass federal. Id just cut the crimp, add a shot card, and roll crimp. Is there a possibility that they could melt?

[junkbug]

Yes, you can, and yes, they may melt some. But it is done, however, it is a little more complex than just what you stated. You need an over powder card, a fiber cushion wad, and an over shot card, at minimum

[Markopolo]

I would just love to find a good ole 12g side by side in my neck of the woods. Just ain’t available here. If I had one, I would load these...229141

229142

RCBS makes a 12g die set and shell holder that works in a rock chucker for resizing and such.. pretty easy to reload them by volume with a BP substitute or holy black. The simple rule to follow is equal measure of BP to shot by volume. BPI and others make fiber wads for 11g to use the brass shells, and as long as you don’t go crimp crazy, the brass shells will last over 20 reloads. If you can’t get the old brass shells, CBC sells them by the box of 20.. reasonable price considering how many times you can reload them. I do recommend annealing the brass ones. I use them with single shot 12G and 410, and they are a blast to shoot, easy to load, and a read head turner at a crowded range, not that I have a range within 100 miles here... it’s a real fun project, and perfect for that gun once it’s deemed safe to shoot... your gun will like it too..

Marko

[labradigger1]

My 2¢.
High or low brass has nothing to do with shotshell pressure. High brass was more of an importance when hulls were paper. Smokeless powder has and always will have MUCH more pressure than black powder. I see no nitro proof markings in your pictures so you better stay with black. Also, shooting 2-3/4 shells in 2-1/2 chambers will drastically increase chamber pressure due to constriction of the folded crimp opening into the forcing cone instead of before it.
If it were mine (and i have one similar) I would use roll crimped hulls with very light loads and black powder (roll crimps produce less pressure) or use brass hulls with black powder.

[Kev18]

My 2¢.
High or low brass has nothing to do with shotshell pressure. High brass was more of an importance when hulls were paper. Smokeless powder has and always will have MUCH more pressure than black powder. I see no nitro proof markings in your pictures so you better stay with black. Also, shooting 2-3/4 shells in 2-1/2 chambers will drastically increase chamber pressure due to constriction of the folded crimp opening into the forcing cone instead of before it.
If it were mine (and i have one similar) I would use roll crimped hulls with very light loads and black powder (roll crimps produce less pressure) or use brass hulls with black powder.

I cut the crimp off some Winchester and federal 2 3/4 shells. Took the powder out and slapped some Pyrodex in there. Cut the middle part out of the wads. They have a "spring" type piece inbetween of the over powder wad and shot cup. So I cut that out and it fits in perfectly with the load. I put an over shot card and roll crimped.