LBT vs Mountain Molds [Archive]

Maven

12-01-2005, 03:04 PM

All, I have 5 LBT molds and have had no problems in getting them to fit my bbls., delivery, dealing with Veral Smith or with their workmanship and downrange performance. However, base fill-out is sometimes a problem, but hardly a fatal one. Given LBT's current pricing, I'd certainly look to Mountain Molds or Jim Allison's Cast Bullet Enterprises in NSW, Australia.

JDL

12-01-2005, 05:53 PM

Mountain Mold, without a doubt! I have both and have had better results with Dan's molds. As a matter of fact, I'm probably going to sell off the LBT's in the future. -JDL

Haywire Haywood

12-01-2005, 07:07 PM

I kinda figured the split would be more along the 50/50 line. I have 2 45cal brass moulds from Dan before the online design got started, and one recent one from LBT. Dan's moulds didn't require any tweaking, but Veral's needed the shank enlarged. He offered to fix it, but decided to let Jim have at it instead. I think my next one is going to be an MM mould but an LBTish design.

Ian

SharpsShooter

12-01-2005, 08:39 PM

Anyone have the URL for LBT? I googled a vareity of variations and come up empty. Mountain Moulds design program is decent looking.

Hardcast

12-01-2005, 08:54 PM

Anyone have the URL for LBT? I googled a vareity of variations and come up empty. Mountain Moulds design program is decent looking.

LBT's website was being hosted by Leverguns.com, but apparently that is no longer. Veral posted on Graybeard's site that he is trying to get his website hosted on Graybeard.

MGySgt

12-01-2005, 09:21 PM

MM for sure.

I have at least 6 MM of different design. I had a problem with out of round on 3 of them (molds warped, probably my fault) Dan replaced them no questions asked - Didn't even want the old ones back!

I have wanted to try the LBT's but due to COST and there seems to be a problem with a quick reply/turn around if there is a problem with LBT, at least for the current time - I am staying with MM.

One other thing about MM - I have always gotten a quick response from him on everything, most of the time with in 4 to 6 hours!

Drew

waksupi

12-01-2005, 10:19 PM

LBT's website was being hosted by Leverguns.com, but apparently that is no longer. Veral posted on Graybeard's site that he is trying to get his website hosted on Graybeard.

I guess I couldn't see it,then. I've been kicked off of Greybeards. Twice. Greybeard don't like questions, or dealing with things he don't agree with. I was even very polite, and didn't swear or anything. I recall Jumptrap's mention of him visiting his place. I'm heartbroken.

ammohead

12-01-2005, 11:19 PM

no "father knows best" nonsense about it.

Oldfeller

Give credit where credit is due. The man did a lifetime of research that we all benefit from and I haven't found any of his "nonsense" that doesn't work. His bullet designs will live on long after all of us are gone. I never heard anyone giving Elmo Keef a hard time about being opinionated, unless maybe it was Jack O'Connor. He has earned his right in my eyes to pontificate if he choses.

rant over

That being said, I hear great things about MM's products and most likely Dan will get my next order. Gotta try something new, especially when everyone loves them. Who knows, maybe when Dan gets old, he'll get a little opinionated too.

Got a hankerin for a flat nose copy of a homemade paper patch mould for my 348 Win. Been bumping a flat on the nose with my sizing press and can't help but think that I might get a bit more accuracy with a bullet done right.

ammohead

omgb

12-02-2005, 12:06 AM

Veral got bumped from Leverguns after a disgruntled customer voiced concerns over Veral's handling of his order. The guy who runs things at Leverguns decided that this (removing him from the site) was the best course of action. I don't know who is at fault really nor do I claim to know all of the details. Certainly, I'm not qualified to make a judgement on the rightness of either party involved. I do know however, that Veral has always treated me well and his moulds have proven to be some of the most accurate bullets I have in 45-90. Craftmanship of the moulds I have is flawless and his sprue plate is really a work of genius. That being said, there are rough spots in dealing with LBT. He is not really computer savy and his connection to the internet is spotty. So, communication is not exactly instantaneous.

Also, as many have said, Veral has strong opinions based on years of experience which he does not hesitate to share...often strongly. He also will not suffer fools quietly. This bothers some people but I tend to trust him. He is quick to admit his areas of weakness. He does not, for instance, claim to be fully versed on all of the intricacies of BPCR. Whether or not you ever buy an LBT mould, I would urge all involved in shooting cast bullets in centerfire firearms to read his book. It is filled with a wealth of really solid factual knowledge about bullet shape, fit, lethality and lubricants.

Veral is a bit of a character. He went head to head with the IRS and did time in the federal lock-up. From what I've read, he got a raw deal and perhaps some bad advice. At any rate, he is a solid gentleman, honest and definately patriotic. His skill at metal work is above reproach and his prices reflect it. I'm going to give MM a try though simply because I may be able to get equal quality for a better price.

9.3X62AL

12-02-2005, 12:56 AM

No experience with LBT molds or their originator. I do believe that Veral has added a great deal to our hobby and to the utility of cast boolits for hunting and target work. I'm not deeply fond of the LBT designs for general purpose shooting, but the WFN/LFN designs have proven themselves as capable game harvesters in the hunting fields. To be blunt, it isn't my place to criticize LBT designs--I like Keith and Thompson SWC designs due to their flexibility, and I'll leave it at that.

I own three of Dan's MM molds, and all are a pleasure to use. I will buy more of them in the future.

PatMarlin

12-02-2005, 02:09 AM

LBT is the finest performing molds on my bench by far. Never have used a MM.

Char-Gar

12-02-2005, 02:29 AM

I have never owned or use an LBT mold, but they are quite expensive. I do have several Mountain Molds and have been very happy with them. Each one has been made to the specs I requested.

By far the best molds I have ever seen and used are made by Rob Applegate. Rob is taking a hiatus from mold making and I hope he does not give it up for good.

Haywire Haywood

12-02-2005, 05:50 AM

Ah, the LBT fans arrive... good. The thread was starting to look like an MM advertisement ;)

I have never owned or use an LBT mold, but they are quite expensive.

I thought they were expensive too till I found the Victory Mould site :veryconfu

Ian

Bret4207

12-02-2005, 08:28 AM

I've used a few LBTs and own one. I've read Verals book several times and, like Elmer, the man has opinions. I don't dispute them. They go basicly hand in hand with Elmers and those ideas have always worked, at least for me. I will say that no LBT I've used has anything on a Walt Melander NEI mould. Use-wise I mean. Design-wise, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like Veral's sprue plate design and I think if he was 20 years younger and not such a hard head he'd still be at the front of the pack. He's not much of a salesman. MM has a strong future if Dan can handle the "dealing with the public" part. Some folks have been less than thrilled with that aspect of MM. I intend to buy from Dan when I finally figure out what I want in a slightly heavy 32WCF mould. I like the idea of his online design program. I just can't decide what I really want. If you want to compare value- price vs. quality vs. getting exactly what you want, I'd say Dan at MM wins at this time. Who knows where they'll all be in 5 years.

omgb

12-02-2005, 09:16 AM

That "slightly heavy 32 WCF mould" is precisely what I'm looking at too. The problem I'm encountering is the lack of a tapered leade boring in 32-20 rifles. Dan warns on the discussion boards that a wide driving band up front or in fact, a full caliber driving band will make chambering impossible. Veral cautions against the same thing. So, I'm where you are at, stuck deciding just how to design the bullet. What was your idea of slightly heavy? I'm shooting a Lyman 311316 right now and would like a .314 bullet with a flat base.

The Nyack Kid

12-02-2005, 09:30 AM

Despite my vote for MM im secertly rooting for Veral. sssh dont tell no one :bigsmyl2:

Bret4207

12-02-2005, 09:41 AM

OMGB- I think I want a .314 design about like the 311316 at about 125 gr. Thats as far as I've gotten. This is for a rifle.

MGySgt

12-02-2005, 02:44 PM

Addition to my earlier POST.

I WILL buy one of Veral's molds for the 45/70 Marlin, just can not deside on a weight - 450, 400, or 350 grains.

I will buy one of his 44 molds - once I figure out do I want the LFN or WFN? I know the weight will be 280Gr.

I have purchased some items from LBT and especially his book - I must have read it 5 times already and still learn something new when I re-read a chapter. Didn't understand a lot of it the first few times I read it.

Veral has always been honest with me, even when I received an order from him that was wrong - No questions asked - sent the correct items.

BUT he is hard to get ahold of (e-mail only). Right now I am in the experimenting stage and have lots of questions that need answering. When I make up my mind - I will order the LBT's. In the mean time I am buying MM's at 2 to 1 over the LBT's.

Drew

PatMarlin

12-02-2005, 03:20 PM

It's not Verals info that's hard to understand, it's his writing.

I bought Verals used off ebay, so I never paid full pop.

I wish I hadn't bought cheaper molds, but then one comes along like the .457 LEE 340, and it sings like a bird when it's flyin.

Some molds I just cuss at when casting, but they shoot pretty darn good.

Marc2

12-02-2005, 04:46 PM

I have a couple of molds from both. Both produce exceptional bullets. The MM has a large sprue hole that took awhile to get use to. The Smith mold has a resevoir in the sprue plate that makes it hard for me to pour one cavity at a time but this can be overcome. In my opinion either mold should serve you well.

PS Keep in mind that LBT is very hard to contact (no phone or internet) but if you can live with that you'll be OK.

Marc In VA

9.3X62AL

12-02-2005, 06:58 PM

The problem I'm encountering is the lack of a tapered leade boring in 32-20 rifles.

You said it, sir! Most lever rifles have very short, abrupt rifling leades that resemble a concrete city street curb. The front band on #311316 JUST squeezes into the throat of my Marlin 94 x 32-20 WCF, and if it was half as long things might interface a lot better.

I'm fixing to have Dan cut me a 215 grainer for my Win '73 x 44-40. The default setting for front drive band on his program is .100"--try adjusting the front band setting to its minimum (.050") to see if such a configuration will get along better with the throat profile of your rifle.

omgb

12-02-2005, 11:25 PM

You know, one thing Veral will do that Dan will not is cut a 4 cavity mould with three of the four cavities flat based and one of the four GC. I know getting ahold of Veral is tough, but dang, those moulds are sweet and his LBT blue is the BEST D#$%ed lube I've ever used bar none. IT really does make a difference in high speed loads. Also, his advice concerning Star lube-sizers and counter-boring the seater punches for GCs is brilliant. Hornady GC seated using this set up do not come off in flight.
R J Talley

waksupi

12-03-2005, 12:07 AM

Ok, a worthless two cents, maybe.
I've had, and still have some of Verle's molds. Nothing wrong with them at all.

I've never owned one of Dan's molds. It seems like when I get ready to order one, a similar design comes from another arena, to try out, to approach the same results I am interested in, or ready cash disappears.

I want to tell you folks something, though.

As far as I remember, when this board had to move from it's previous home, Dan gave great financial support, to help make this move much easier than it could have been .

I have great respect for Veral, and what he has contributed to the knowledge of cast bullets. The information he has made available, is nothing that can be ignored by any serious cast bullet shooter. If you don't have his book, you are behind the learning curve. It's that simple.

But returnng to my original premise. Dan was a much needed supporter here from the very beginning, as far as I know. I believe we owe him some loyalty just for that. His consistant reported quality, makes him easy to support.

9.3X62AL

12-03-2005, 12:28 AM

But returnng to my original premise. Dan was a much needed supporter here from the very beginning, as far as I know. I believe we owe him some loyalty just for that. His consistant reported quality, makes him easy to support.

Ditto that--and since he takes time off for hunting season and posts to his website that he's doing so, is just another positive in my book.

snowwolfe

12-03-2005, 03:19 AM

What is LBT's web site?

Haywire Haywood

12-03-2005, 11:17 AM

Veral doesn't have one at the moment. The closest thing is an LBT support forum that he posts to at Graybeard Outdoors. His catalog is posted there in a sticky. Ordering will have to be done via snail mail tho.

Ian

omgb

12-03-2005, 11:38 AM

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=114

The above is the link to Greybeard's "Ask Veral" site. That will get you a forum where you can pose questions to him. At the top of that forum is a sticky that has his catalog. Veral only accepts MOs for payment so all orders have to be placed by snail mail. Also, he lives just east of BF Egypt way out past the Boonies in a tiny little area of the Idaho panhandle. As of last year, his shop wasn't heated which means that orders placed during really cold weather take a tad longer. (Like I said, working with him isn't always easy). That situation, the heat, may be fixed by now.

R J Talley

FWIW, You guys have pretty much convinced me to make my 32-20 mould order with Dan. Not that I have been dissatisfied with LBT, quite the contrary. However, Given all of the support Dan has demonstrated and the fat that his moulds are getting rave reviews, I'd be a fool not to test the waters.

The Nyack Kid

12-03-2005, 12:42 PM

he isnt that far of a drive from waksupi old vic or I . in fact when i lived in Troy, Veral shop was just a 20 minute drive from my house (to bad i wasn't old enought to drive ) I guese that puts use WAY east of BF egypt. that part of the world (northern Idaho and northwestern montana) is IMO the best place on earth . i have nothing but fond memories over there.

Cayoot

12-03-2005, 01:37 PM

I want to tell you folks something, though.

As far as I remember, when this board had to move from it's previous home, Dan gave great financial support, to help make this move much easier than it could have been .

I have great respect for Veral, and what he has contributed to the knowledge of cast bullets. The information he has made available, is nothing that can be ignored by any serious cast bullet shooter. If you don't have his book, you are behind the learning curve. It's that simple.

But returnng to my original premise. Dan was a much needed supporter here from the very beginning, as far as I know. I believe we owe him some loyalty just for that. His consistant reported quality, makes him easy to support.

That made my decision for me...my next non-cast boolit mold will have to be mm!

snowwolfe

12-03-2005, 06:10 PM

What is a non cast bollit mold?

omgb

12-04-2005, 12:04 AM

Here's a photo of two .45 bullets by LBT. One is a 520 gn. WFN designed for the 45-90 using smokeless. The other is an attempt to make a 1,000 yard target bullet for the 45-90 in BP to compete with Lyman's Postel.

omgb

12-04-2005, 12:09 AM

Here's an example of an LBT mould. This is the one I had Veral make to compete with the Lyman Postel.

Bass Ackward

12-04-2005, 08:00 AM

I think that to try and pick one against the other is the wrong way to look at this.

LBT offers proven designs and extensive information for those that want or need it. An LBT mold is the most idiot proof mold that I have ever used for the beginning caster. By that I mean that it is the "easiest" to use from a bottom pour pot and run hot without developing problems from shrinkage that usually start with undersized GC shanks. Heat is probably the biggest problem for beginning casters. The biggest negative is that you are stuck with LBTs experience and designs which were developed to fit a generic number of firearms. And any bullet that fits that gun will be superior to one that doesn't.

Mountain Molds offers you a chance to FIT TO ONE GUN and test yourself against accepted theories in the calibers and styles, under the options that are offered. These molds are well machined and practical. This is a totally different concept designed more for the advanced caster / shooter. Filling a gap that up to now was too expensive for the majority of the hobby to afford. IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PERFORM AND MEASURE A CHAMBER CAST, you truely win with a bullet designed to fit THAT GUN. So with a MM you can either win or lose on bullet design, but it is all on you.

9.3X62AL

12-04-2005, 09:24 AM

I think Bass nailed the landing with his most recent post.

Bret4207

12-04-2005, 10:15 AM

Yupper, Bass said a mouthfull. As to the 32-20/WCF, whatever you wish to call it- I must be lucky as my 32WCFs all swallow the 311316 without a hitch. The thought occurs that I trim to the shortest case length in the box, so that may be part of the reason. I've mentioned before my finding that 32WCF brass needs frequent trimming. They don't all grow at the same speed either. I haven't run enough Starline brass yet to know if they have the same issue. I use the crimp groove in the 311316 and even with my shorted cases I get good accuracy from my Savage 23 bolt gun. Actually, that may be another part of the reason. I don't recall ever getting a poor group with that rifle and it's ancient Weaver K4. It's just a sweety. I have several other moulds waiting to be tested, but between work, the house and the farm there's not much free time to play. Retirement is 4-6 years away assuming I don't take on more debt. I'd think 23-25 years of this cop crap will be enough, then I can play some.

PatMarlin

12-04-2005, 01:26 PM

Interesting deal on LBT...

I just bought a new RCBS 45-300-FN for my 45-70, thinking it would be nice to have a high velocity, light bullet for my guide gun, and I could size it down for my .45 colts, casull,. etc.

Well to my azmazment last night I looked at the RCBS, and noticed it looked very famililiar.

My LBT .455-320-LFN is a dead ringer for the RCBS. In fact I set the LBT boolit in the RCBS cavity and it was nearly a perfect fit, in all dimentions.

I did buy the LBT used, so someone may have ordered it that way.

A note on LBT... if you want one of Veral's custom molds order soon. Availability may be sketchy in the future, and it's a darn shame, because he is a craftsman.

Do any of you guys use the 45-300-FN in your 45-70?

9.3X62AL

12-04-2005, 01:49 PM

Pat--

I have to really work the mold to get the castings to .459" for my #1 x 45-70, and the rifle doesn't shoot them as well as it does the heavier slugs. The RCBS castings shot VERY well when sized to .454" and stuffed into 45 Colt cases over 15.0 x 2400 and lit off from the Ruger BisHawk.

In case a Colt New Service in 455 Eley makes its way into the gun safe, that RCBS mold might be a good thing to keep around. The .456" sizer could be an issue, but Buckshot could conceivably be enticed into creating same for the proper amount of adult beverage or other consumable considerations. I have some elkburger, too.

PatMarlin

12-04-2005, 01:57 PM

I'll contract your services as my agent... :mrgreen:

Hardcast

12-04-2005, 10:31 PM

<snip>
A note on LBT... if you want one of Veral's custom molds order soon. Availability may be sketchy in the future, and it's a darn shame, because he is a craftsman.
<snip>

Can you explain why you say this? I have not anything about Veral retiring.

omgb

12-04-2005, 11:07 PM

I just posed the question to Veral over on Greybeard. We should have an answer in a day or so. When I get it, I'll post it. Meanwhile, I sure would like to know what was meant by all of that.

Haywire Haywood

12-04-2005, 11:19 PM

I can answer that. He might be going back into the federal hotel system for a second visit, seems he's in a bit of trouble again. [smilie=b:

Ian

omgb

12-05-2005, 12:32 AM

Crap! What the heck for this time? I wish they'd leave him alone and chase some illegals or something.

drinks

12-05-2005, 01:02 AM

After 10 years of trying to work felons in the TDCJ construction division, I can only say, felons seem to remain felons, there is just no such thing as a true reform, just seems to be a permanent mind set.
Sic transit gloria mundi , Veral.

omgb

12-05-2005, 02:47 AM

Here is Veral's reply to my question about LBT closing production:

"No, we aren't shutting down, but are taking all the business we can get. My health is extremely good for a 65 year old man, able to do hard labor, and the machine shop is easy. We do have some legal problems hanging over our heads right now, but they aren't slowing business. We expect them to be resolved early in January 2006, but it could take a bit longer. When they are resolved the U.S. will know without me telling, or word of mouth (gossip), so whatever you hear about LBT, unless I give the information, or you see it in the news headlines, don't believe it. Oh, by the way. If the major news tells anything bad about me thats a lie too! Only good stuff counts.
_________________
Veral Smith"

Looks as if he's going to be with us for awhile longer which is OK by me. I wish the Feds would go away and pick on some real criminal for a change. Last time I checked, Bill Clinton perjured himself before a Senate Committee and has yet to do a day's time for it.

Buckshot

12-05-2005, 05:56 AM

Do any of you guys use the 45-300-FN in your 45-70?

Sure do. Shoots well in the MAS36 conversion, TD Infantry (new barrel), H&R TD carbine and the 45-90 Sharps. Unlike Deputy Al, me being a fine upstanding clean living friend to all mankind, the mould I bought drops them big enough to size DOWN to .459" :D

...............Buckshot

JDL

12-05-2005, 09:27 AM

Do any of you guys use the 45-300-FN in your 45-70?
I do. It is the best, by far, out of 4 molds for my B-78. Drops right at .460", sized to .459" and pushed out of the barrel with 43 grains of IMR-4198, producing 1850 fps. Doesn't punish the shoulder and shoots under 2" at 100. What's not to like? :-D
Intresting in the compairson with LBT. -JDL

Lloyd Smale

12-07-2005, 08:09 AM

They both make decent molds. But in my opinion neither compare to a ballistic cast mold for quality.

Haywire Haywood

12-07-2005, 10:29 PM

They both make decent molds. But in my opinion neither compare to a ballistic cast mold for quality.

Who makes them? Do they have a web site??

Ian

9.3X62AL

12-08-2005, 02:29 AM

Sure do. Shoots well in the MAS36 conversion, TD Infantry (new barrel), H&R TD carbine and the 45-90 Sharps. Unlike Deputy Al, me being a fine upstanding clean living friend to all mankind, the mould I bought drops them big enough to size DOWN to .459" :D

...............Buckshot

By this, you see the sort of things I have to deal with as a part of the Burritoista Battalion. Scurrilous hairball, that Buckshot--a Bolshevik drain clog of the first order.

mroliver77

12-08-2005, 11:28 AM

I do not have a MM yet. I have a couple of LBT. Some years back I was cast boolit frustrated and just could not get the quality boolits and smoothness of casting. Sticky, cheap, out of round, handles falling apart from beating to get boolits to drop yadda yadda.... Lee, Lyman. I bought a couple Lbt designs for 30-30 and 30-06. Bullets dropped from the molds freely. Round and straight with well filled out check shanks. Bases as square as you can get. Beutiful sprue plate design. My pal Willbird used the LBT's during a "castathon" we had one day. He was impressed and that is saying something, hehe.
I agree with Veral that bore riders suck. Having said that I do not want to cut new throats in all my guns. I view them as a necesary complication (evil?) My 30-30 LBT 150 flat noze is one fine boolit. I can drive it as hard as the 30-30 Marlin can stand with good acuracy and zero leading. In a pals Win 30-30 we could do no wrong with this boolit.
I have some designs I want to try and MM will prolly get that business. Money is tight these days so that plays a great part in which companies molds I will buy. So I don't vote either way. Jay