Why is 9mm great for people and not bears? [Archive]

Lloyd Smale

10-07-2018, 06:38 AM

ill put it this way. Ive shot a pile of deer and it amazes me how far they (or a bear, pig ect) will run with its insides turned to mush. Ive seen 60lb fawns run 50-100 yards after being shot with a 257 wby. Shoot a man even in the guts with a 257 and hes not going anywhere!! Animals have an instinct to run or attack when hurt. Man does not. Mans instinct when getting hurt is to protect against more pain. Man also has a fear of a gun where an animal when shot has no idea what caused the pain and if they think its you they don't know that you have another one in the chamber ready to go. Evolution has taken the fight and flight instincts away from us. the world is just to safe for us to need them. Its why you need to be trained in the military to fight and kill. It doesn't come natural to us anymore. Our train of thought goes more toward the "get into the fetal position and play dead" senerio. It kind of relates to what my instructor told us in combat training. The biggest strongest men are usually the easiest to stop. They grew up not having to fight because everyone feared them. Its the small guy that got picked on that usually is the hardest to stop.

Mr_Sheesh

10-07-2018, 06:47 AM

Well, if you need a certain amount of hitting and an old 9mm FMJ didn't quite do it, but the modern bullets do, then it'd be effective. And with the same increase in bullet effectiveness, the others would be more effective. We don't need a 105mm Artillery piece to stop an attacker, just "Enough to do the job", and if someone cannot use a 45 or 40 and can use a 9mm, it would then do the job.

Family member used to date a lady who was very arthritic, had bad use of her hands - Couldn't shoot much more than a .22LR effectively. She was a Criminal Defense Lawyer, to make things, uh, "More Interesting." She'd have a tough time potentially, but you DO have to work within your abilities.

But for most, a .45 at least can be dealt with, you need the proper training though. If you have to download the bullets somewhat and use a less stiff spring, that's OK, so long as whatever you use will WORK. I'd rather someone have the "I will defend myself" mindset ANY day over "I'll hope a police officer happens by and if not, I guess I am out of luck" mindset; That can end badly, and DOES, too often.

Bears also have a LOT of muscle mass; I wouldn't want to wrestle one, that'd HURT.

Love Life

10-07-2018, 08:15 AM

Thumbcocker

10-07-2018, 08:54 AM

Could it be a stopping vs. killing thing? You don't necessarily have to kill a person to make them stop doing the bad thing they are doing.

Chihuahua Floyd

10-07-2018, 09:09 AM

People are not bears also you seldom get a shot at a standing bear. Don't compare skeletal structure from the posted pictures. Can someone stop a bear with a 9 'm, yes, but sub-optimum caliber choice.
CF

psweigle

10-07-2018, 09:12 AM

Bears have thicker hide, and much denser bone. Not to mention more mass.

Petrol & Powder

10-07-2018, 09:26 AM

Why is 9mm great for people and not bears? = Because Bears are built differently than people.

NSB

10-07-2018, 09:26 AM

What makes the 9mm "great for people" is that it's great for shooting for people. Light recoil, large round capacity, etc. That's the great part, not the stopping power of the round. Also, most people stop when they get hit with the first round. A bear doesn't.

scattershot

10-07-2018, 10:22 AM

In addition to the fat/ fur thing, I agree with Lloyd and others that there is a psychological factor in humans that just doesn’t exist in animals. Also, animals are tougher and more tenacious than humans, so they take more stopping.

Drm50

10-07-2018, 10:37 AM

Humans & animals go down more easily when they are in a relaxed state. When excited or scared
the adrenalin starts pumping and crazy things can happen. I have shot a lot of deer, most jumped
from heavy cover. Dead on the run until they run into a tree, same hit on a grazing deer drops it
on the spot. It like a chicken trying to fly with its head cut off. Unless pumped full of dope humans
don't seem to have this trait.

osteodoc08

10-07-2018, 10:39 AM

Fur, fat, muscle, bone. Plus shear determination of a true animal. Not too worried about blackies though. They’re fairly shy. Seen a bunch on hikes in the southern appalachians over the past 25 years or so. They usually do their thing and wander off. Don’t corner a sow with cubs.

LUCKYDAWG13

10-07-2018, 10:54 AM

Animals are tougher then people you ever shoot a squirrel with a 22 long rifle and have him feel sorry for himself and just lay down and give up no sir animals are tougher then people

str8wal

10-07-2018, 11:38 AM

So why do those that love the 9mm for self-defense never suggest it for woods carry against black bear and other predators?

Attitude. If you put a hole in a bear or human, it is going to alter their attitude. A human is more likely to collapse or flee, whereas a bear just might do the opposite. If a bear is already wound up and coming at me, I want the heaviest and largest chunk of lead that I can shoot accurately to hopefully change it's attitude. A 9mm will kill a bear if you hit it in the right place, heck bears have been killed with 22's but I wouldn't rely on it. Penetration is important, as is the ability to break bones. A hard cast bullet in 40something or larger would be my choice.

DougGuy

10-07-2018, 11:49 AM

For bears: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

For humans: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

End of discussion!

tazman

10-07-2018, 11:58 AM

For bears: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

For humans: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

End of discussion!

For humans, over penetration may need to be considered.
For bears, not so much.
Otherwise, I agree.

jmort

10-07-2018, 12:18 PM

For bears: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

For humans: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

End of discussion!

Makes sense to me

Silver Jack Hammer

10-07-2018, 03:16 PM

Overpenitration is often talked about, I’ve never seen or heard about in reality. I’ve seen lots of examples of underpenitrating

Time Killer

10-07-2018, 07:18 PM

There is no such thing as over penetration when defending yourself in the wild. You want as big a meta plate as you can use and as heavy a bullet when talking about defense in close quarters. There is also a big difference when hunting a bear and when defending against one charging or attacking you. Almost anything can be killed with a 22 but I would not want to be relying on one with a big sow or boar bear charging me.

Defending yourself against a human you do have to worry about over perpetration. Your kids could be in the next room, others could be around the individual you are shooting, the bullet could go threw your sheet rock wall and kill some one outside of the house etc. That is why so many defensive pistol bullets are designed to stop at around 12-16 inches. The 9mm and 40 have been designed just for that. That type of bullet is not acceptable for defense against a bear.

Bigslug

10-07-2018, 09:44 PM

Time Killer has largely nailed one of the key points - most of your 9/.40/.45 carry ammo has been optimized for solving a two-legged, urban problem for which the FBI's specified 12-18" of "ideal" penetration for a duty/CCW is highly appropriate. Selecting that same performance envelope on an animal with a "horizontal" layout is probably less than optimum.

On the other side of the equation, anyone who's done penetration testing in those calibers or power ranges with harder cast alloys will tell you that it's a completely different ball game. Milk jugs being my standard test media, it's been my experience that you can get three times the penetration with a non-expanding LFN compared to what you'll see from the top-shelf duty loads with hollow points and squishy 9 BHN cores.

And that's the key thing to remember here: all of the 1980's controversy over the 9mm's effectiveness was ultimately linked to poor bullet selection for the task at hand. Looked at from another angle - you can absolutely, positively, kill an elephant quite rapidly dead with a .30-06, but you wouldn't want to try it while loading 130 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. A hard, heavy 9mm may not be the optimum handgun choice for black bear, but considering that the optimum handgun choice is simply a larger lump of non-expanding subsonic lead, it's probably wrong to call it drastically inferior.

MT Gianni

10-07-2018, 11:17 PM

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5SvoQtw6D

Perhaps we don't know all we think we know.

Idaho45guy

10-08-2018, 02:48 AM

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5SvoQtw6D

Perhaps we don't know all we think we know.

Great link!

9.3X62AL

10-08-2018, 04:49 AM

Good info, Gianni. Many thanks!

am44mag

10-08-2018, 06:01 AM

9mm on a bear sounds like a great way to meet God sooner than later.

Bears are not people, even if the skeletal structures and weight are sort of similar. There's a reason 44 mag tends to be considered the MINIMUM for bear defense.

Sailormilan2

10-08-2018, 08:06 AM

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5SvoQtw6D

Perhaps we don't know all we think we know.

Beat me to the punch.

tazman

10-08-2018, 08:16 AM

Thankfully, bears aren't an issue here in Illinois, so I don't have to concern myself with those. The nastiest thing in the woods will be coyotes or the very occasional mountain lion.
Years ago, we didn't have to worry about either of those but they are in the area now.
A good 9mm would work for either of those but I tend to carry a 357 mag for comfort.
Different areas would require different equipment.

jmort

10-08-2018, 10:18 AM

The huge bear killed by the guide, Phil (?), in the linked article, is a well known incident. He was using Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman 9mm and the story is on the Buffalo Bore website. He had the right bullet for the job. Over the years, I have come to respect the 9mm with a decent meplat more and more. Very efficient case.
BTW, great article. Thank you MT Gianni.

Traffer

10-08-2018, 10:22 AM

Why is 9mm great for people and not bears? ...I think it is because Bears have a hard time racking the first round into the gun. And bears are lousy shots.

lefty o

10-08-2018, 10:41 AM

common handguns are underpowered for either IMO.

Bubba w/a 45/70

10-08-2018, 10:45 AM

why is 9mm great for people and not bears? ...i think it is because bears have a hard time racking the first round into the gun. And bears are lousy shots.

hhahaahahahahaaha!!!!!!!!!!

KCSO

10-08-2018, 11:03 AM

If you mean easy to shoot bears don't have thumbs!

If you mean to do damage to people it isn't really all that special it demands proper placement and most folks won't practice enough for that, same as the 38 special. It will kill deer hogs coyotes and woodchucks ok IF you put the bullet in the right spot. It is not a preferred hunting cartridge.

Murphy

10-08-2018, 11:13 AM

Just my 2 cent's.

A human know's when they've been shot and react accordingly, for the most part anyway.

Bears, don't know they've been shot and continue forward with their plans until they run out of blood or oxygen.

Murphy

HABCAN

10-08-2018, 02:17 PM

Bears are a LOT harder to STOP than people, that's 'why'.

KCSO

10-08-2018, 02:18 PM

Bears is a wide subject, there is a vast difference between a 125 pound black bear and a 1000 pound grizzly. Mostly bears are thisk skinned with masses of real muscle and gristle and you need to penetrate that and still break bones. On a griz the 115 9mm wouldn't even punch through to the vitals and would be iffy on a large black bear. Humans on the other hand are for the most part, thin skinned and lightly muscled compared to a wild animal. Although I have a couple of friends that I wouldn't want to shoot with a 9mm either.

Then you get to the attitude factor and here is where the 9 is a loser. On an animal a fatal wound that is not an instant kill will put them into attack mode. Most humans when shot don't react that way...but some do.

I was asked one time why I carried a 45 and my reply was 'cause Colt don't make a 50. I do carry a 9 for a backup gun on occasion but I PRACTICE, a LOT.

gwpercle

10-08-2018, 02:22 PM

megasupermagnum

10-08-2018, 08:47 PM

Bears are bigger, tougher, meaner , nastier, stronger and more aggressive to the point of they will not only kill you , they will eat your body and enjoy it ! It's the nature of the beast .
We , on the other hand are weak , small and frail , not too tough at all . We can be dispatched very easily.
Harsh words can make some people cry . Don't mess with the bears!

I wont claim to be an expert, but I don't know where people get that black bears are these giant killers. It's rare I see one bigger than I am, and as far as aggressiveness, humans are far more aggressive. The thing is though that a black bear knows it can kill you if it wants, I don't trust them one bit. It's rare to see them in most of Minnesota, most live in the north east part of the state. The big difference between people and bears is the stance. With a bear you have to go though the shoulders, which have lots of muscle and fat, bones, and finally the organs. A 9mm with a hardcast or FMJ bullet would probably do it. Not much for a wound channel though. Deer are a far bigger threat, especially this time of year. Dogs are the squirliest animals I've ever come across though. Most are goofy house pets, but some have a screw loose.

MT Gianni

10-08-2018, 10:05 PM

The study I quoted is dealing with problem bears and those that might be chewing on you. For a straight through the gullet shot it may not matter if you have a 13 shot BHP with 125 gr rn or a 44 5 shot. What I believe the article set up was that if you can still draw and dump your magazine at a range that may be less than 6 feet a 9 can be effective.
That takes a real effective shooter who is cool under pressure rather than a practiced shot.

P Flados

10-08-2018, 11:31 PM

A big black bear with plenty of fat is probably not a quick put down with a 9mm until you get more than two into the kill zone. Connecting with three good shots before he connects with you is why the 9mm is a poor choice.

I recently read up on the postings (another forum) by a shooter who made a living that involved looking at the aftermath of a lot of gang shootings. Before he saw the end result of these shootings, he carried a 9mm. Now he recommends 357, 40 or better.

The 9 is ok for SD most of the time. This "most of the time" does not include things like an armed and determined drug numbed idiot or something like a 280 lb + guy wearing heavy winter gear.

Just like the fat bear that may get to you before you connect with a third hit, good guys can get into similar situations with the harder to put down than typical two legged bad guys.

Some point to widespread use of the 9mm in military applications. In the military, most opponents will not be those exceptions mentioned above that require more than a 9mm. For military applications, total rounds available is an advantage for the 9mm that generally makes it a good choice as compared to rounds that do better at quick put down for the exceptionally tough opponent.

If your chances of shooting in a self defense situation is very low (in the woods or in the hood), any gun is better than no gun. Proficiency with what you have is a priority for this situation. Expect the need to put multiple hits where it counts if you ever do resort to using your gun.

If you are less fortunate and you really do expect that you will need to put an opponent down to save your own skin, why carry anything less than a 357 or a 40?

Along the same lines, if there is any chance that you will face a bear that is bigger than a black, why think about anything less than a 41 magnum? Most people that can handle a 357 can handle a 41 with an extra 2" of barrel. And do not forget that barrel ports are definitely a plus in this application.

From my reading, a 44 mag with factory JHPs seems to be well regarded by experienced guides for SD against the big ones. They seem less convinced with anything different than JHPs or anything with signficantly less clout.

Proficiency matters the most, but for a big bear it seems smart to use the biggest thing you can handle. You may not have time to put "multiple kill shots" into the beast. Compared to those I shoot with, I tolerate hand slapping better than most. If I were planning to wander around in rough Alaska, my preference would be to get and try to become proficient with a something like a 5 shot 454 with a 4" barrel. If I found I could not handle the 454, I would step down to a 44 or 41. The 41 does not give up much in punch, but the reduced recoil for the same gun weight does increase the potential for good second and following shots.

Mr_Sheesh

10-09-2018, 02:33 AM

IDK on JHPs, for Griz at least you'd want penetration - as much as you can get. Black Bear, JHPs would be OK tho I'd think. When in AK I was carrying a 12Ga with 50 cal BRI Saboted slugs, never did have a problem but I'd think it would have sufficed. (Drove through Canada so couldn't really bring handguns up there.) For Griz for certain, I would prefer not to get gnawed on, and a Black Bear gnawing on you would HURT a bit!

Lloyd Smale

10-09-2018, 06:56 AM

Well I shoot more 9s then probably every other round I load for put together. I love shooting it. Its cheap to load and mild to shoot. Ive got 7 9mm pistols and 2 ar15s chambered in it. All that said it IS NOT GREAT FOR HUMANS. Its ok but not much more. I even carry one often but truth be told if I ever got into a gun fight (which isn't likely) id sure wish id left it at home and had a 40 or 45. Sure you can find some test that shows they stop as well as a bigger gun. Heck I can find a test that says about anything is better then something else. What it isn't is a round that was ever designed in any way for a hunting or animal defense gun. Not even for black bear or deer let alone a big bear. Personaly I wouldn't waste my time carrying the weight of a 9mm 40 or 45 around if I thought I might get attacked by a bear. Guns for that start at the 44 mag and even then if an enraged bear that was wounded was coming for me id much prefer a 454 475 or 500. A 4 5/8s gun chambered in those rounds isn't a whole lot harder to carry then a full sized 9mm or 40 or 45. Bottom line is no matter which I was carrying im sure not dropping my rifle to grab my handgun. Even an 06 or 270 is going to be more likely to stop a bear then a 500 Linebaugh. Ive shot buffalo with 475s and 500s and watched them keep eating until they realized they were dead. Talk to John Linebaugh. Probably the most knowledgeable big bore handgun man in the world today and he will tell you hes seen the same. Yes a big bore cast bullet with a good meplat will penetrate end to end about any animal in the world at any angle short of an elephant. But they aren't t rex killers and don't flatten everything you shoot with them. I once shot a small 6 point buck with my 500 out of my bow scaffold at 20 yards with a 420grain lfn at 1200 fps. Hit it right behind the shoulder and it ran almost 200 yards before it piled up dead. Now poke a little 9mm hole in a 800 lb angry bear with a 120 at a 1000 fps and you can about count on an up close and personal encounter. Why is there such a fascination with getting away with the smallest possible gun for a given job?

RJM52

10-09-2018, 08:40 AM

On shooting bear with the 9mm BB load...

One thing not noted in a lot of the articles is that 5 of the bullets were recovered in the bear. It didn't say if the other two were pass through shots or just not recovered. For a round that is supposed to have 4' of penetration, it did not in real bear... One of the pictures in the article I saw showed the bear with the hide off. One of the bullets was a cross body shot about where the kidneys are. One can see the track of the bullet from where it entered to the end where the bullet is sticking up out of the muscle...about 18-24" of penetration with no bones struck.

What bothers me is the fact that after the first shot in the neck from a distance of 6' that failed to hit the spine, the bear began to spin just a few feet from the clients for probably 10+ seconds as Phil put six more rounds into the bear which still did not put the bear down. The bear then started to run off when Phil put the 7th round into the bear and six feet later finally dropped...

My contention from the time this was reported was that when the bear started to run off if the path taken had been over the clients we would not be having the discussion about the use of 9mm for bear defense...

The BB round is for those who have nothing more than a 9mm..

Bob

Potsy

10-09-2018, 09:47 AM

I'd rather have a .45 than a 9mm for humans or bears. With hardcast, a heavy 9mm might even penetrate as deep as a .45, but it ain't gonna tear as wide of a hole. Nor will it carry near the weight, and, therefore, energy, if you believe in that sort of thing.
I've always sorta thought the "overpenetration" thing was a load of **** given that most rounds fired by cops miss(!). Inside of your own home may be a different story. In the woods, I'd just as soon it go plumb through and kill the bear behind the bear in front.

9.3X62AL

10-09-2018, 02:29 PM

30+ years ago as a graveyard shift deputy in the Banning, CA area I was called to assist a local police department's officers on containment of a prowler sighted in the back yard of a very nice home in the upscale section of that city. The suspect was moving very quickly eastbound, vaulting backyard fences as he proceeded. One of the PD's officers placed himself at the far east end of this tract and took up a barricade position with his 1911A1 in 45 ACP. Note that said officer was a former Navy SEAL, and his pistol was stoked with Winchester Silvertip 185 grain JHPs.

The suspect came into view across the large back yard that the officer was set up at. The suspect--a black bear--continued running right at the officer's position. The officer got on target and began firing to stop the oncoming bear. I was about 100 yards away when the firing began, and heard it clearly--5 shots about 3/4 second apart. The officer got on the air and advised, "Black bear down, back yard of XYZ Blank Street. Resume normal traffic". The bear piled up about 15 feet short of the officer's position, with a board fence between them.

Bears were frequent visitors into settled areas of Banning and Cherry Valley during the time I worked the Pass Area (1982-1987). This incident is the only time I recall that a bear had to be shot to resolve a problem. We had many more calls for service in the County area involving bruins--they didn't mind the red/blue lights flashing near them, and ignored siren "bumps" enthusiastically. What ran them off was a move I learned entirely by accident--keying the mic on the patrol car's PA speaker annoyed them A LOT--the open carrier sounds must have hurt their ears. So we started using mic clicks on the PAs at full volume, and the bears that showed up on trash nights exited without much delay. 30 years on, my Mom now lives at the mobile home park where the nuisance bears made most of their forays when I patrolled the area. USFS-type trash and recycle bins in place at the MHP make life hard on the bears, so they aren't as pestiferous now as they were in past years. A few idiot humaniacs insist upon leaving food out for the bears, though--residents get one warning from park management, a 2nd violation gets reported to Cal-Fish & Wildlife. THAT gets expensive.

End note--this involved officer was an impressive and professional law man. A few years after this incident, he attended law school and achieved his Juris Doctor, passed the CA Bar Exam, and went to work for the San Bernardino County District Attorney's Office. Just within the past year, he passed away due to cancer at a relatively young age. He is greatly missed.

CJR

10-09-2018, 05:09 PM

I have some large bear experiences from hunting in PA, which has the largest black bears in the world. My first experience was when my buddy shot a 550Lb black bear in Long Pond swamp, PA using a 30/06. He hit the black bear and continued hitting the bear until he emptied his rifle. He then reloaded and continued shooting until his rifle was empty again. During this adventure the bear was rolling and roaring until it expired. It took 10 hunters, with a Jeep, from 10AM to 4PM to get the bear out of the swamp. We hung the bear up and he was about 7 ft -"nose to toes". I had a chance to feel the bear's structure; its ligaments were like steel cables and he had solid hard muscles and massive bone structure. I remember thinking that this bear could break a horse's back with his front legs. Second experience was when our Club President took another 550 lb black bear at about 25 yds. The President, a former sniper in 'Nam, started the process also with a 30/06. Same roaring and rolling occurred until the bear gave his final death howl. We opened the bear up and found that NONE of the 4 bullets exited the bear. Likewise, the bear had about 2" of fat that was white as snow. It took 7 of us, using a car nylon tow strap, to move it 50 yds to a guard rail by a road. It took us 2 tries to lift the bear over the guard rail. We tried to load the bear on a car platform, typically used for deer, and busted the platform. Another 800 lb black bear was also taken up the road about a mile from our hunting camp. In a previous hunting camp, that our camp leased, we had 7 black bears around our small remote cabin with the largest black bear sow at about 637 lbs(i.e. drug darted and weighed by the Game Commission). There was another incident, in our hunting area, where a car hit a large black bear crossing the road at night. The car was totaled and the bear wandered off.

I scout a lot for deer in bear country. What I've learned is large black bears can be very tough to kill. You can forget about getting a kill with a lot of bullet energy dump into a large bear, i.e. if a bear can total a car and walk off; bullet energy dump is not the answer. In my view, large hole pass-through penetration, to insure bleed-out; along with bone-busting ( front shoulder by front shoulder) will help slow/immobilize the bear to enable follow-up shots- is the way to go. Just remember, black bears have been clocked at 40 mph and they can close the distance pretty quickly. Likewise, lead's cheap and the more you apply the better the outcome for you. I like 44 handguns, with excellent penetrating/bone busting 250 gr. Keith CB at 950 to 1350fps as back-up to my rifle. When the shooting starts, you're in for the time of your life.

Best regards,

CJR

Traffer

10-09-2018, 08:27 PM

Another reason that 9mm is good for people but not for bear is that...Most places will not sell 9mm ammo to Bears. If a Bear can't get ammo for his 9mm you would have to agree that the 9mm is not "good for Bear".

lefty o

10-09-2018, 08:31 PM

Wheelguns 1961

10-09-2018, 09:00 PM

Lotta great bear stories! Thanks for sharing. I love reading stuff like that.

zymguy

10-09-2018, 09:27 PM

if all you've got is a saw horse that's what you use. The level is hung up at voyagers lumber in ely
https://www.elyecho.com/articles/2017/12/22/bear-attacks-two-ely-men

Wheelguns 1961

10-09-2018, 09:37 PM

Did the bear turn out to be rabid? That is some crazy stuff there.

W.R.Buchanan

10-09-2018, 10:14 PM

GP the biggest problem with the 9MM is the fact that it is not superior to any caliber starting with 4. Teh 9MM round was developed by the Germans before WW1. It was rejected by our Army shortly thereafter as being insufficient for Combat usage.

The .45 ACP became our caliber which went unchanged until 1985 or so when idiots in Congress decided that the 9MM was adequate for the people we were shooting at that time. in reality the only thing superior about the round is the cost of the ammo which always cheaper than anything bigger simply because it requires less metal to make a 9MM round.

People now say there are tests proving that 9mm is superior to .40 and .45 because of the new ammo. This is obviously BS as ammo companies make the same types of ammo in .40 and .45,,, and as we all know when it comes to guns,,,, bigger is always better.

One other reason why they say it is superior is because most guns made for 9mm have a higher magazine capacity than for bigger calibers.
the reason for this is because when you shoot someone with a 9MM you will inevitably need to shoot them more times to get the same effect as being shot once with a .40 or .45!

The fact that this cartridge is not really suitable for killing Humans in a "humane way" should rule out it's use for bears as well.!

Just sayin' ?

Randy

Naphtali

10-10-2018, 11:45 AM

The most obvious reason for human beings to appear to be more vulnerable to being shot with [fill in the blank] is that people are more intelligent than any animal. Animals do not recognize or understand that they have been shot - that is, the bullet must do the complete job of stopping-killing, no psychological enhancement. People, however, recognize and understand what has happened. Most will be affected with " I give up" or "I've been shot. Oh, my Aunt Tilly's hind end" or other extremely negative reaction.

By way of an example from life, I have a friend who had been a uniformed LEO in a moderately sized suburban community. He and his partner were chasing an armed fugitive escaping from his hotel room on the hotel's fire escape. Bob was waiting at the bottom. The fugitive shot at Bob and began climbing. Bob followed, caught him, and "helped" him down the fire escape to the ground. Bob handcuffed and then noticed he had been shot in the thigh. Bob collapsed in a heap. The wound was through-and-through penetration in muscle without injury to femoral artery or any branch - that is, non-lethal. My point is that until the human being recognized he had been shot, he hadn't been shot in his consciousness. Recognition with understanding caused his body's collapse. This incident and evaluation of wound is Bob's and not mine. And this first hand telling of the tale is important. It is Bob stating that it was his recognition of the wound that caused him to collapse.

Rodfac

10-10-2018, 03:05 PM

charlie b

10-13-2018, 09:59 AM

I still remember a story from one of the more famous hunters about Grizzly.

The .30-06 was bad. Bear took 6 shots and was still walking around. They got the .300 Win Mag out and shot it 6 more times and it finally rolled over. No charging or any other high intensity stuff. All 12 shots were in the chest area. They found two of the shots hit the shoulder but did not break it (they concluded those were from the .30-06 just because a 'magnum' would have definitely broken bone).

I like the forest service recommendation. 12ga with slugs or .375 Mag rifle.

Never have been in Grizzly country on foot and don't plan to.

429421Cowboy

10-15-2018, 12:06 PM

I guess my comparison for the 9mm would be the .357 Mag. We all know that .357 is about the starting level for a "real" bear gun, and with the Buffalo Bore offerings (+P+) the 9 is elevated into .357 territory. I do know two gentlemen that have stopped griz with 9mm handguns, one being the aforementioned Phil Shoemaker, and another being an instructor at our local shooting school that I train at. Both used the Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman rounds. The local gentleman fired two rounds on a sow grizzly while bowhunting, both hits, both high. He was aiming for a head shot and hit her between the shoulders (lung shot) with the first round, which slowed her considerably, and dropped her with a second round between the shoulders (spine/high shoulder).
To me, this illustrates what I believe to be the key in stopping bears with handguns; CNS/bone structure hits are what stop bears. Any handgun will kill a bear with a heart/lung hit, but we are talking about needing to STOP bears right now by breaking them down. Truthfully, most handguns you could carry are woefully underpowered compared to a bear rifle.
An interesting side note on bears vs. handguns, that same range that we train at offers bear defense courses, and has tested quite a few handguns and loads. The only autos they tested that would meet penetration requirements were heavy loaded 10mm and 9mm rounds with TMJ or hardcast bullets. No .45acp or .40 rounds would do it, they're all too slow, using short fat bullets. Sectional density and velocity are what's needed to get penetration.

Oh, and for my money I carry my SBH when in griz country loaded with 340 grain LBT WFN's!

St. Hogustine

10-15-2018, 12:52 PM

There's a lot to be said for a carbine in .357 or .44, unfortunately there isn't always room to carry one. This issue raises a real dilemma for me. Because of familiarity and lack of recoil, I would get 9 accurate shots out of my 1911 (38 Super) well before I would get 6 out of my SBH (480 Ruger). If I had to leave for bear country today, I'm not sure which I would choose.

dverna

10-15-2018, 01:09 PM

For bears: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

For humans: You should carry the BIGGEST caliber you can shoot accurately.

End of discussion!

I did not even bother reading any further.

DocSavage

10-15-2018, 01:52 PM

I'm not a hunter nor do I hike in the woods but for defence against 2 or 4 legged predators 357 mag minimum,41,44 mag 45 Colt or 45r Casull even better. I agree about how human react to being shot as opposed to wildlife. Humans being shot "OMG I've been shot" ,wildlife something has stung me I'll just move away from the source of the sting.

tbx-4

10-15-2018, 09:02 PM

Here's an interesting video on a 9x19 gun... its the Ruger LCR 9 revolver... This guy does some real world no nonsense tests.

https://youtu.be/eIsy9gg1S58

How about .45 ACP on bears, humm?

https://youtu.be/7gtTEEm1-1A

Texas by God

10-16-2018, 12:24 AM

W.R.Buchanan

10-16-2018, 03:47 PM

All this talk about 9MM handguns is boring, Previously I considered .44 Spec or Mag as minimum bear deterrent, however I have recently concluded that effective Bear Defense starts at 12 ga. Slugs at 1300 fps + and goes right up from there. No need to shoot twice.

After working out the TKO of 12 ga slugs at various speeds I found that they compare favorably with most large caliber rifles, and slugs at 1600 fps (TKO of 73) :holysheep exceed even the .458 Win Mag.(TKO of 70) A 12 ga Pump Shotgun would now be my first choice!

For comparison a 147 gr 9MM bullet at 1000 fps = TKO of 7.5 ! Hardly worth mentioning! [smilie=b:

I am going to my third Tactical Shotgun Class next week and will be vicious when I return with more knowledge on how to effectively use said shotgun to its fullest.

Maybe a 9MM pistol is better than nothing, but if you know where you are going you can easily plan ahead, and a 9MM anything would not be on my list. [smilie=b:

Randy

RogerDat

10-16-2018, 05:27 PM

Most intruders leave without being shot, the round being loaded or a declaration of I'm armed and will shoot cause vast majority of intruders to "self deport". Of the tiny percentage that stay to be shot at most are not hit, yet they flee from gun fire. So a tiny majority of a tiny percentage are shot at and a very small percentage of those get hit. Homeowners it seems don't do their best shooting in their underwear or PJ's but again those that get hit also tend to flee the scene because of those hit only a tiny percentage die. If shot placement is critical doing it amped up on adrenalin after waking up from a sound sleep in you boxer shorts seems to be something you want to avoid for accuracy.

So it seems shooting people who are breaking in doesn't need to end in a fatality to be a success. Bears on the other hand if they attack it seems to me they generally do some mauling. Shot or not shot. Once they decide to "go" they just don't stop. They eat stuff that fights back, they fight each other which has to hurt so attacking you the "pain" I would think isn't unexpected or likely to be a deterrent. They have to die or at least feel hurt enough that they consider themselves to be losing a fight. Or win by mauling you sufficiently that they figure they can come back and eat you at their leisure, or no longer a threat, or never going to intrude on their "alone time" again having learned your lesson.

I noticed in the accounts of documented cases the range tended to be short the action fast and the bears could take multiple hits from just about any handgun. To me this argues for a .357 mag preferably with 8 shots. Revolvers are very reliable. I also think revolvers tend to encourage measured and aimed rate of fire. Not that all shooters of auto loaders fail to train to do aimed fire I just think it might be easier for a person facing a freight train of fur with teeth to do a mag dump with a 9mm where a 357 or 41 or 44 will by their nature tend to slow down the rate of fire. Some good and some bad there. If you really need that rate of fire you need the auto loader. If the rate of fire leaves you with a lightly wounded and pissed off bear with no bullets left you needed to slow down but it's too late now.

tazman

10-16-2018, 07:50 PM

A lot of information and opinions in this thread. I was expecting that.
I have no direct experience with bears of any kind. I really don't have any desire to have such.
If I am ever forced to go into country where there are a good supply of large bears who might possibly like to have my sorry backside for lunch, I will be carrying something a whole lot more powerful than a 9mm. I kind of like my backside where it is.
I am unlikely to ever face that situation since I can no longer hike long distances or in very rough country. The only possibility would be a bear escaping from a zoo in the area. I don't really feel the need to prepare for that.
I do hunt squirrels and rabbits on my brother in law's farm. There have been several sightings of cougar in that area and I have seen one dead cougar up close on the next farm over. They normally don't pose the problem a bear would. I still carry a 357 mag when I am there in the back of the farm.

JBinMN

10-16-2018, 08:03 PM

Idaho45guy

10-16-2018, 10:10 PM

Sometimes, even Bear Spray is not as useful as it is presented, even though it seems it "finally" worked in the situation described in the article.

https://www.cdapress.com/local_news/20181015/hayden_man_survives_beingattacked_by_grizzly_bear_ in_montana_wilderness

One 'takeaway" is whether or not, regardless of what you use, can you deploy your defense quickly & effectively when it is needed.

Folks can draw their own conclusions from what they can get informed about, in regard to wildlife attacking humans.

I, personally, am gonna the do the best I can, regardless of what I have, be it a rock, club, a sharp stick/spear, a firearm or a howitzer, etc, or even my own physical abilities to try to prevent more issues.. That is gonna depend on , "WHAT I have with me." & "What is attacking me.".

If all I have is a 9mm, for man or beast, then that is what I have & I will use it. If I can prepare for "worst case scenario", then I will choose something more appropriate, IMO, to deal with such issues.

Here is a great time to offer the acronym/phrase,"YMMV", or "Your MIleage May Vary". Since everyone has different abilities in handling issues & what is available for defense.

The, OP, asked, "Why is 9mm great for people & not bears", and personally, I think the answer has already been answered in these last 3 pages. If not, then may I suggest someone go out & do some actual testing and get back with us on the results... Otherwise, like the old commercial about the Owl & the Tootsie pop, with how many licks does it take to finish one... And the answer provided then...

" The World may never know..."
;)

From the article you cited...

"We walked three steps and there was a narrow road and boom, that's where we saw the two bears," Legasa said.

The youngling reared up and growled, then made way for the mama bear to charge.

"I put my arms in front of me. I had my bow in one hand and had my arm out. She tried to get me into a bear hug headlock," Legasa said. "She grabbed onto my arm and had it in her mouth. I was knocked over on my butt and at that point I was kicking and screaming trying to move her away."

Gibson blasted her with bear spray, spraying Legasa twice in the process.

"My eye was covered in blood," Legasa said, telling his story over the phone from his room in Bozeman Health Deaconess Hospital on Sunday.

Legasa said he was finally able to get to his spray as the bear moved toward Gibson, but he couldn't see anything and sprayed himself a third time. Gibson unleashed more spray on the bear, which finally retreated.

"It was a pretty intense couple of minutes of not knowing what happened," Legasa said. "At one point I had my face in the bushes because there was snow on them... I was thinking, 'I can't see a thing and this could be it.'"

That's an interesting aspect of bear spray vs. pistol for bear defense. Would the buddy have accidentally shot his friend if he used a pistol? Twice? And would the victim have also shot himself? Not likely, since he was blinded by his friend's bear spray, he couldn't tell which way the can was pointing when he deployed it. You can surely tell which way a pistol is pointing even when blinded.

Anyway, more of a bear spray vs. firearm observation...

Idaho45guy

10-16-2018, 10:25 PM

I also wanted to come clean regarding my original post.

It was not offered as a sincere question as to if the 9mm was an effective round against bears. It was to point out the fact that most black bears in North America weigh the same as the adult American male. Factor in heavy clothing and influence of drugs and you have a rebuttal to the observation that the 9mm is just as good as larger calibers in incapacitating an attacker.

It was an attempt to get those that vigorously defend the 9mm (often using the "modern bullet design" argument) to realize their hypocrisy in not recommending it for woods carry.

I carry a .40 S&W with 10 Hornady 165gr Critical Defense rounds as my CCW around town. I have supreme confidence that it will stop a human threat. It would also work just fine against wolves and cougars. However, for woods carry, I have a 10mm with 200gr hard cast boolits. My woods carbine holds 9 rounds of .450 Bushmaster. Either of those are marginal against Grizzly bears but more than adequate for the cougars, wolves, black bears, and drunk white trash I commonly run across in the woods.

Suffice to say that I have never had to shoot a threatening animal in nearly 40 years of hiking/hunting/off-roading in the Idaho backcountry. And I have never encountered a Grizzly. All black bears and cougars have retreated at the mere sighting of me. However, this past summer, I had a wolf come and investigate my camp and leave a pile of scat 100yds away. The lever-action .45 Colt carbine I had at the time was a great comfort when the sun went down.

RogerDat

10-16-2018, 11:23 PM

So in effect the OP was just saying 9mm isn't good for bears or human attackers? I disagree. Humans seem to have an aversion to being shot, even with the lowly .22 rim fire. Bears may have a whole different attitude. With the heft to back that attitude up.

Idaho45guy

10-16-2018, 11:46 PM

So in effect the OP was just saying 9mm isn't good for bears or human attackers?

No idea how you are getting that conclusion when TWICE in this thread I stated pretty clearly that I questioned the latest view that 9mm IS JUST AS EFFECTIVE as larger calibers in stopping an attacker...

I keep reading how 9mm is just as effective as a self-defense round as the .40 S&W and .45 acp.

Idaho45guy

10-16-2018, 11:49 PM

And the second time I clearly stated that I thought the larger calibers were more effective than 9mm...

Factor in heavy clothing and influence of drugs and you have a rebuttal to the observation that the 9mm is just as good as larger calibers in incapacitating an attacker.

Nowhere did I say it was not good for self defense against humans. It is the smallest caliber I would consider for a self-defense round against humans and I would never consider it for self-defense against larger predators.

JBinMN

10-17-2018, 01:08 AM

Idaho45guy,

I got the idea that you did not understand what I was saying in my post earlier so I am going to try to clarify it.

In my post #67 above, about the bear spray and the accompanying article included, I was trying to point out that it seems that not all "defenses" work all of the time, and that while bear spray is supposed to work on bears "effectively", there is a chance that it will not be effective for one reason or another, just as there is a chance that a firearm may not be effective for one reason or another, even if it is a 9mm, or larger than a 9mm in its' "knockdown power".

( An earlier post with a link about bear attacks & firearms used, reinforces this)

Thus, even though bear spray "can possibly" work to prevent or stop a bear attack, there are times where it might not be enough,
just the same as a 9mm or larger firearm "can possibly" work to prevent or stop a bear attack, there are times where the firearm might not be enough.

That was all I was saying in regard to the 9mm & bears in that particular post.

The rest of that post was my opinion on what I might do to prevent/stop such an attack using whatever means I had to do so, as well as saying that until some sort of verifiable "realtime" tests are done, we will likely not know the answer to your proposed question from the OP.

I hope my clarification here is enough, as I don't think I can explain it any better than I just tried to do.

No offence or harm was intended by any of my posts here.

CJR

10-17-2018, 10:14 AM

I have some final comments on black bears.
1. When one does a literature search on"black bears killing people", we find black bears kill more people than all the other bears combined.
2. My observations, over the years, seem to show that smaller black bears tend to run off while large black bears slowly walk away and tend to be more aggressive. Two(2) of my hunting camp buddies were both chased, on separate occasions, by black bears in bow season and they fortunately got away. Another member of our hunting camp had one small black bear crawl up to him in his tree stand and he had to continually kick him in the head to get him to back down the tree.
3. The newspapers, nationwide, have shown some incidents of black bears breaking into homes with people in them screaming at the black bear. If you haven't seen or read these black bear stories; you're living on Mars.
4. Black bears tend to have better scent detection than deer.
5. A couple of years ago, three (3) Pacific Northwest hunters had been "dry-camp(no water)" hunting in a remote area for a number of days and , as all hunters know, were very "ripe" with body odor. During one night, one hunter felt something in his hair and jumped up, turned, drew his revolver and shot a black bear which then climbed a tree and was finished with a rifle. What's interesting to me is this. That black bear very easily scented those three (3) "ripe hunters", waited for darkness, crept closer to the one hunter, and tried to crush his skull to make a "silent kill" and then drag his body away to eat him.

I've personally been at "arms-length" from black bears who did not run off but stood their ground. I respect them very, very much. Likewise, I'm here to tell you that if you look like "food" to them you will be eaten. Next time before you think about carrying that 9MM in black bear country, place that 9mm round next to a 44 Magnum 250g.Keith round for comparison. For me, the caliber choice is pretty obvious.

Best regards,

CJR

Lloyd Smale

10-18-2018, 07:08 AM

ill put it this way. Ive seen my mother chasing a black bear off her back deck with a broom. I don't think shed be stupid enough to do that with a grizzly bear. I live where there are a lot of black bears. For the most part you don't even see them when walking in the woods because they hear you before you hear them and are long gone fast. Yes you could possibly get in a situation with one. Id bet most bear attacks are in the spring when cubs are with them. Probably because the cubs aren't that afraid and don't run and the sow stays to protect them. My experiences are just the opposite of yours. Ive been up close and personal a few times and just yelling had the bears running faster then a freight train. I did have a buddy who like your experience was in a bow blind (hunting for bear with a bow) when a bear (about 200lb) climbed up and tried to join him. When it got up level to him he yelled (he admitted he was panicked) the bear leaped off the tree 15 feet in the air and was gone in a flash. Don't know which of them was so scared. Had another buddy deer hunting in a scaffold that had a bear climb up the tree he was on. He had a redhawk on a tether because he had been seeing more bear then deer. He panicked drew the gun and dropped it. The bear saw the gun falling and again jumped and ran for cover. Like I said lots of bear up here. Its pretty hard to find someone that hasn't at one time or another had one in his yard. I had only one in my yard that stood its ground. It was a bear that was big but just to skinny and I knew something was wrong. I didn't have a gun and kind of walked slowly away. After that that year I carried a gun in the yard. I wasn't but about two weeks later that he returned and again wouldn't be chased away so I shot it. Come to find out someone had shot him in the but with fine shot and it was all infected and he was sick and probably hungry. Im not dumb enough to say there perfectly safe but if your scared of black bear youd best stay in the house when it rains because theres probably more of a chance of getting struck by lightning then getting attacked by a black bear and surely don't drive because theres many times more people killed by drunk drivers then killed by black bear.
I have some final comments on black bears.
1. When one does a literature search on"black bears killing people", we find black bears kill more people than all the other bears combined.
2. My observations, over the years, seem to show that smaller black bears tend to run off while large black bears slowly walk away and tend to be more aggressive. Two(2) of my hunting camp buddies were both chased, on separate occasions, by black bears in bow season and they fortunately got away. Another member of our hunting camp had one small black bear crawl up to him in his tree stand and he had to continually kick him in the head to get him to back down the tree.
3. The newspapers, nationwide, have shown some incidents of black bears breaking into homes with people in them screaming at the black bear. If you haven't seen or read these black bear stories; you're living on Mars.
4. Black bears tend to have better scent detection than deer.
5. A couple of years ago, three (3) Pacific Northwest hunters had been "dry-camp(no water)" hunting in a remote area for a number of days and , as all hunters know, were very "ripe" with body odor. During one night, one hunter felt something in his hair and jumped up, turned, drew his revolver and shot a black bear which then climbed a tree and was finished with a rifle. What's interesting to me is this. That black bear very easily scented those three (3) "ripe hunters", waited for darkness, crept closer to the one hunter, and tried to crush his skull to make a "silent kill" and then drag his body away to eat him.

I've personally been at "arms-length" from black bears who did not run off but stood their ground. I respect them very, very much. Likewise, I'm here to tell you that if you look like "food" to them you will be eaten. Next time before you think about carrying that 9MM in black bear country, place that 9mm round next to a 44 Magnum 250g.Keith round for comparison. For me, the caliber choice is pretty obvious.

Best regards,

CJR

RED BEAR

10-18-2018, 07:34 AM

i really didn't think you were serious about hunting bears with a 9mm. but to your point i do carry a 9mm at times and i realize they do not have the power of a 40 sw or 45. i remember when the military was doing the testing the 9mm and all the magazines were touting it as more effective than the 45 with the right ammo. only problem was the military has to use hardball ammo not the best hollow point rounds. when comparing the same type rounds the 45 came out on top. they already knew that the switch to 9 mm was happening so they tried to make it look like the right decision. the government has the tendency to try to make there dessions look right. while not having the power of the 40 or 45 the 9 has plenty of power for self defense. it ain't what you shoot with its where you shoot. i pray i never have to use my gun in self-defense but if i do have to shoot i will not stop until i hit something that makes them stop. the majority of times that only requires a single roung.

CJR

10-18-2018, 10:00 AM

Lloyd,

I stand by my comments. Your comment, about it being more likely to be struck by lightening, etc. reminds me of an event that occurred in NJ a couple years ago. NJ has a good population of black bears because of the many protests against bear hunting. So one day three(3) or four(4) guys were out hiking in the woods and saw a black bear. All the guys, but one, left the area quickly. That remaining guy decided to take some photos of the lone black bear. Unfortunately, the black bear ran the guy down, killed him, and proceeded to eat him. The Game Commission then hunted that black bear down, now a maneater, and killed him.

It's nice to talk about personal experiences and speculate about the likelihoods of bear encounters for the GENERAL population. That statistic is phony. When one walks into black bear country we are no longer part of the "general population". We are part of a very small specific population and we are at a higher risk to black bear encounters. If I never leave my home, I have zero risk of encountering a black bear. But to get a good handle on one's risk of black bear encounters, in black bear country, it's always good to search for info on "black bears killing people". It follows that black bear encounters in New York City are zero compared to black bear encounters in black bear country. If I can establish a higher awareness of what black bears can do, I'm happy. Chances are, if one underestimates what a black bear can do; that may end up being a fatal mistake in judgement.

Best regards,

CJR

Mr_Sheesh

10-18-2018, 01:14 PM

CJR

10-18-2018, 03:12 PM

Another perspective on this excellent thread. I understand completely a person just getting into handguns and not really knowing if their handgun is capable in a particular application such as a stroll in black bear country. What this thread has done is to essentially do a "Threat Assessment" of black bears. This is the same type of Threat Assessment done in good Defensive Handgun training classes. The next step in the process is to learn what is the proper weapon to use and then we need to know how to break the black bear threat down or any other kind of threat. Now a human threat may attempt to endanger you and then decide to break off the attempt. Black bears are no different; i.e. some are aggressive and attack while others do a "bluff charge" and then decide to stop and run away. All the personal black bear stories cited here are interesting as they give us insight into all the different/unpredictable ways black bears can act. But the bottom line, in all this discussion, is; "when it hits the fan", we need to know the proper weapon to use and have with us and how to break the black bear threat down. To many experienced people on this thread, this is obvious. But it is not obvious to many people that are new to weapons and want to protect themselves and their love ones for a stroll in black bear country. When things can bite; overkill is ALWAYS better than underkill.

Best regards,

CJR

Meatpuppet

10-18-2018, 04:33 PM

9mm is great for people because we have thumbs and can load magazines! Bears, not so much....

Idaho45guy

10-18-2018, 05:16 PM

My approach has been to carry a SBH in 44 Rem Mag in black bear country, and 12 Ga in Griz country; So far so good. An IDIOT family member was "treed" up a rock wall by a ticked Black Bear some years ago, they finally saw the light; I saw if before them, seems. Anything powerful enough beats nothing, just disagreements on what is "enough" - It's your life, pick what you feel will work for you - It's your life. Mine's pretty important to me :)

I feel bad for bowhunters, who are restricted in what firearms they can have with them when hunting. They have the most encounters with bears due to their season being in early Fall when bears are most active preparing for hibernation.

stubshaft

10-18-2018, 07:21 PM

I carry a .45 for EDC and am not afraid to take it with me to the woods, where I would normally pack either a .44 Special or FA Casull (depending on which woods I walk in)...

RogerDat

10-18-2018, 08:09 PM

No idea how you are getting that conclusion when TWICE in this thread I stated pretty clearly that I questioned the latest view that 9mm IS JUST AS EFFECTIVE as larger calibers in stopping an attacker... First post outlines how bears and humans are comparable in structure, with humans having more skeleton coverage of vitals. Second post is questioning why people who advocate that the 9mm is effective don't suggest it for bear. Given those two items makes the two attackers equivalent, and if caliber x isn't suitable for one type of attacker it isn't for the other.

Bigger cartridge can cause more damage with projectile being similar technology, effective is does it complete the job. Not does it do the job "more". Bears and human attackers not being equivalent at all makes presenting the lack of confidence in 9mm for bear as evidence for lack of justifiable confidence in 9mm for humans not make much sense. A whole lot of folks are firmly of the opinion big as you can shoot is good in all situations. For most that isn't the 9mm yet many carry 9mm daily for self defense against humans. Few of them would advocate it's use as a bear gun. The simple reason is bear and humans are not equivalent attackers.

So if larger calibers are "more" effective is 9mm effective enough? For human threats? For one of the largest predators in North America? I would say yes for human, seems in the reports linked to that it can work for bear but would not be a first choice to pack if bear are possible threat.

Mr_Sheesh

10-18-2018, 09:21 PM

In a way, the threat from bears is like the threat from lightning - IIRC there are a few, rare people, who work in jobs in the outdoors, where they have been struck by lightning (at least "Near Misses") more than once. Example - A Ranger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Sullivan) who was hit 7 times and survived. There are people said to have been hit 10 or 11 times.

Statistics say something like 25 people have been killed by black bears in the last 20 years or something like that? But that's known cases. Same as with cougar attacks, one could suspect that there are more attacks where someone "just went missing" due to predation.

And some black bear attacks are on people in sleeping bags, I've been told that if bears have access to trash dumpsters and learn to associate plastic garbage bags with food, then they can mistake a sleeping bag for a garbage sack, and if the occupant objects to being dragged off, swat it, potentially killing someone. Makes me want to only camp with a dog around!

charlie b

10-18-2018, 09:53 PM

When I hunted it was usually in black bear country. I carried the rifle for hunting and a pistol and bear spray. The pistol varied depending on what I owned at the time. .45acp, .357Mag, .45LC, and yes, even the 9mm.

From the few instances I know of and the few articles I have read about encounters it is a game of chance, mostly depending on what the bear's state of mind is. Secondary is any weapon involved and how good the person is with it. A few of the encounters were close up with pistols being discharged into the bear's mouth.
Not without injury to the human, one had to pry the mouth open after it had been shot and killed.

But, encounters that required self defense are few. So many are like some described above, yell and shout and the bear goes away. We used to have a large one that 'visited' our house in the fall. It was after the garbage can. It would knock over the can, pry open the lid and take out the 'good' bags. Then sit down to eat, and I do mean sit, with the bag in it's 'lap'. When we were home we'd try yelling and horns to no avail. What would get it to move was one of those beam lanterns (big 12V battery and a car halogen driving light). It irritated the bear enough that it would get up, grab the it's bag and walk off.

One night there was snow with a thunderstorm. Lightning struck close. In the morning we found where the bear had run through a chain link fence and another wood fence. I suspect it was feeding as usual and the lightning scared it. I would not have wanted to be in it's path. I don't think anything short of an armored car would have stopped it.

Lloyd Smale

10-19-2018, 08:13 AM

what they aren't are puppy dogs. If you act like an idiot they can be dangerous. But that said it makes me chuckle when the walter middy type straps on a 475 Linebaugh and a 12 guage pump to walk behind the house when theres a chance there might be a bear somewhere in 10 square miles of there home. Only way they make me worry is when I used to bait deer in the back yard with corn bear would come in and I worried my dog would go after them. Ive got a picture from camp one day when the family was out there having a barbeque. We have a loop driveway that's about an 1/8 of a mile around and the grandkids ride there little 3 wheeler and mini bike around it like a race track. We had a picnic table set up about 30 yards from there and about 15 people there. A bear (good sized boar) came walking out of the woods and walked right into the circle the kids were racing around and layed down and watched while it rolled in the sand to get the bugs off its hide. Did that for about a 1/2 hour and got up and walked away. Deer can attack too. Id bet theres more cases in MICH of deer attacks then bear. I don't see people getting all worked up about carrying a Linebaugh in case a deer attacks. I think some people look for ways to feel brave. If claiming black bears are as dangerous as a grizz or brown makes you feel like your a dangerous game hunter then have at it I guess. Id say that about qualifys my mom and her broom for a silver star:D
Another perspective on this excellent thread. I understand completely a person just getting into handguns and not really knowing if their handgun is capable in a particular application such as a stroll in black bear country. What this thread has done is to essentially do a "Threat Assessment" of black bears. This is the same type of Threat Assessment done in good Defensive Handgun training classes. The next step in the process is to learn what is the proper weapon to use and then we need to know how to break the black bear threat down or any other kind of threat. Now a human threat may attempt to endanger you and then decide to break off the attempt. Black bears are no different; i.e. some are aggressive and attack while others do a "bluff charge" and then decide to stop and run away. All the personal black bear stories cited here are interesting as they give us insight into all the different/unpredictable ways black bears can act. But the bottom line, in all this discussion, is; "when it hits the fan", we need to know the proper weapon to use and have with us and how to break the black bear threat down. To many experienced people on this thread, this is obvious. But it is not obvious to many people that are new to weapons and want to protect themselves and their love ones for a stroll in black bear country. When things can bite; overkill is ALWAYS better than underkill.

Best regards,

CJR

CJR

10-19-2018, 01:09 PM

Lloyd,

You must be joking in your last post? If you're serious, you are indirectly advocating that since your mom used a broom to chase a black bear, then all we need to carry in black bear country is a "BROOM"! If there are large black bears, then carry a bigger broom. I can't wait to tell my hunting buddies that one and recommend they no longer need to carry their 44s while scouting or hunting in black bear country. Just carry a big broom! Yeah right!

Also, your story about a large black bear in close proximity to children promotes the image that black bears are OK around kids. If that incident happened to people I know, there would of be a rush to first get the kids to safety followed by a race, by the men, to get as many hits as possible on that black bear. I can assure you that those men would not be using "brooms"!

With all due respect, Lloyd, I have concluded that you and I are living in entirely different universes.

Best regards,

CJR

44MAG#1

10-19-2018, 01:28 PM

I am more amazed that there have been 86 replies to the original post. Let each carry what they want. If someone wants to carry a 10 inch BFR 45/70 with some of Garretts BFR loads with 550 grain bullets or a Smith J frame in 22 RF so be it. Or anything inbetween.
If you get yourself in trouble so be it again.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

RogerDat

10-19-2018, 04:46 PM

Shooting a bear for showing up makes no sense to me. I would certainly think pulling people back and heading inside might be prudent as would being prepared. Can't imagine why a bear rolling in the exposed sand warrants everyone trying to get as many hits in as possible.

I worry more about dogs mixing it up with things that are best left alone. Bears would be one. but more common would be skunks, and raccoons can do massive hurt on a dog or human while being plentiful enough that you are bound to meet some. Porcupine quills are a real treat to pull from muzzle and tongue of a dog. Venomous snakes are a dog concern in some parts of the country. In some parts of Michigan the bears have been run so much by dogs being trained off season that the bear has learned he gets left alone once they climb a tree which sort of trains the bears to head up a tree if a dog starts barking.

I avoid things that are harmful in the woods when I can. Am cautious about trying to drive animals off but will do so if it seems feasible to do so safely. Doesn't depend on what firepower I have available as I consider that a last resort. Have seen bears, been in bear country, seen a whole lot more bear trees, tracks, and scat than actual bears. I treat bears the same way I would a large obnoxious drunk in a bar. I avoid them or leave the bar depending on the circumstances.

CJR

10-19-2018, 05:03 PM

Rogerdat,

May be this story will make sense to you; "baby killed by black bear" in the Catskills. Also, "Colorado Rangers Kill Bear Suspected of Mauling Child".

Best regards,

CJR

RogerDat

10-19-2018, 08:40 PM

Rogerdat,

May be this story will make sense to you; "baby killed by black bear" in the Catskills. Also, "Colorado Rangers Kill Bear Suspected of Mauling Child".

Best regards,

CJR ummm those are not stories they are titles in quotes. Links to articles would be stories. How about dogs? Risk is always about probability of event and degree of harm. Bears are low probability of event, the level of harm is potentially greater than a dog but a good size dog can certainly maim and kill. A pair or pack is probably more dangerous than a bear. There are something like 74 million children (under 18) in the US. How many bear attacks on them? Would that be 2 in what number of years? How many serious dog attacks in the same period?

Riding a motorcycle I had numerous brushes with aggressive dogs, certainly large enough to kill a baby or smaller child. I'm reasonably certain there are more dog attacks on people serious enough to require hospital treatment or stay in hospital. Yet most people don't advocate shooting them on sight. Even farmers in our area will generally only shoot a dog if it harasses livestock or their own dog(s) I know that there was a pack of large dogs owned by a women in our county that attacked and killed at least one person, I think they might have attacked two people and killed one. Or possibly both.

I have more scars from people than my dog or myself does from wildlife. Despite the dog spending 10 years hiking, canoeing, and camping with myself and children often in national or state forests. Dog did kill 2 skunks, brought a porcupine back to camp in his mouth and had scars on his face from tearing into a raccoon. He did like I do, kept an eye on bears but also kept his distance. Saw at least 2 that I know while out with him, he sniffed the air and moved on but to my knowledge never moved toward the bear for a better sniff or look. He would do that with horses, cows, sheep or other dogs but not bears. I follow the same policy. He was also no big fan of coyotes, and you could watch him at night to know when they circled the camp. Really get right down to it I think way more people including children are injured by deer while traveling by car than are mauled by bears.

I'm not very comfortable at night moving through the desert or southern areas that are prone to venomous snakes. When I can see then I'm ok with having to be aware of where I step or reach. I took a picture of a diamond back at Independence Rock where it is only after you realize the dappling of sun and shade under the bush has scales that you can spot the snake (used a 200mm zoom lens so I could keep my distance) I didn't bother the snake, and snake didn't bother me. It didn't even occur to me to kill it. I have probably been around 100's when out west but other than some shed skin or tracks in sand that is the only about the 6th rattle snake I have seen.

I figure there are two reasons to kill an animal. Food or the animal is attacking me. I respect that an animal can be a threat and treat wild animals with caution. I don't kill them because I'm frightened. If I was I would move to the big city and be sure to stay out of the woods and fields. Frankly I think I'm right to worry more about people in the woods than bears. Lot of good people out camping or hunting. Some others not so good and it's a long way from the police station. I carry a side arm when it seems appropriate, a first aid kit, and a fire extinguisher. Figure I'll have to do the self serve 911 thing if anything goes wrong. My job is to slow the aggressor down and give rest of family time to get a rifle.. or two :-) I don't believe that depends on the having the biggest side arm I can shoot or shooting anything that comes near that might be a possible threat. The human threats see sidearm and wife sitting by a long gun and are not a problem.

Jtarm

10-19-2018, 11:49 PM

Well let’s flip this argument around:

In 1953, the world record (at the time) Boone & Crockett grizzly was felled with a .22 long (apparently the .22 LR was too much gun.)

Now does that make .22 long the perfect carry gun?

Lloyd Smale

10-20-2018, 06:37 AM

ya I sure wasn't serious. No need for a broom. People live work and play in the woods up here all year long without a broom, knife of gun and I don't recall ever hearing of someone within 200 miles of me getting attacked by a bear. Ive heard of raccons wild dog and wolf enocounters and have even talked to guys who have been charged by rutting bucks but the only storys ive heard of black bear getting up close and personal were when bear hunters wounded them. I do recall one local that had a bear in its back yard in his deer corn pile and had a little ankle bitter dog who went after it and got killed. Cant much blame the bear for that. Now keep in mind we have lots of bear.

The UP of Michigan is a well know bear hunting area. We also have hundreds of miles of state and national forest trails that the yuppy tourists walk every day and never one attack. Lived here most of my life and know not a single man that carrrys a gun in the woods because hes afraid of bear attacks. that train of though ususally comes from the walter middy types that want to pretend there doing something dangerous strolling in the woods and from yuppys from the city that the woods in general scares them. Sure isn't the train of thought of ANY local that actually lives here.

If you feel the need or have insecurity issues carry a 458 for all I care. Chances are your correct and we live in different universes. Mine has trees and black bears and yours has concrete and black crack dealers. Or at least have a different black bear then we have here. Im sure if they really posed a danger those hiking trails would be closed or at least the state and fed government would have bear warning signs everywhere because of the liability issues that are everywhere these days. I did see once in a pamphlet that was given to hikers a warning not to feed the bears. Seems some brilliant yuppys were walking right up to them and giving them food. Funny thing is even they didn't get attacked. they are a wild animal and you need to give them respect and use some common sense. If your lacking that a 44 mag might be called for.

As to how we protect our children. If bear attacks were an issue wed have to stop all our kids from playing in the back yard. Sorry but my kids played in the woods just like I did. they didn't wear knee pads and a helmet when they road there bicycles. All my guns weren't locked away in safes. My kids raced dirt bikes from the age of 7 (even the girls) . I let them be kids! Never raised them to fear everything I raised them to respect things and use common sense. News flash none of them died from it either. Yup a different universe.
Lloyd,

You must be joking in your last post? If you're serious, you are indirectly advocating that since your mom used a broom to chase a black bear, then all we need to carry in black bear country is a "BROOM"! If there are large black bears, then carry a bigger broom. I can't wait to tell my hunting buddies that one and recommend they no longer need to carry their 44s while scouting or hunting in black bear country. Just carry a big broom! Yeah right!

Also, your story about a large black bear in close proximity to children promotes the image that black bears are OK around kids. If that incident happened to people I know, there would of be a rush to first get the kids to safety followed by a race, by the men, to get as many hits as possible on that black bear. I can assure you that those men would not be using "brooms"!

With all due respect, Lloyd, I have concluded that you and I are living in entirely different universes.

Best regards,

CJR

Lloyd Smale

10-20-2018, 07:06 AM

someone with common sense! I remember some hunters from out of the area that were out by our camp hunting one deer season. One guy shot a bear just because it came into his bait pile because he was scared it would attack him. He even called the dnr afterward thinking they would understand. He ended up getting a real good fine and sent home. Some guys are just scared and don't belong out of the suburbs. Don't know about where some live but up hear you cant even shoot a bear if its on your porch. If you do youd better have some concrete proof that bear was attacking. Your options are yelling or using your broom. If it continues to come back you have to call the dnr and they will come out and try to relocate it. It has to be a pretty dangerous situation before they will issue you a permit to shoot it. you cannot even legaly shoot a bear that is attacking your dog. So go out wandering in the woods and kill a bear and what you will find out is you are going to have to justify it just as strongly as you would if you shot a man. Pretty tough to do when attacks are as rare as they are. Youd about best hope you have blood on your self somewhere or have a good lawyer.
Shooting a bear for showing up makes no sense to me. I would certainly think pulling people back and heading inside might be prudent as would being prepared. Can't imagine why a bear rolling in the exposed sand warrants everyone trying to get as many hits in as possible.

I worry more about dogs mixing it up with things that are best left alone. Bears would be one. but more common would be skunks, and raccoons can do massive hurt on a dog or human while being plentiful enough that you are bound to meet some. Porcupine quills are a real treat to pull from muzzle and tongue of a dog. Venomous snakes are a dog concern in some parts of the country. In some parts of Michigan the bears have been run so much by dogs being trained off season that the bear has learned he gets left alone once they climb a tree which sort of trains the bears to head up a tree if a dog starts barking.

I avoid things that are harmful in the woods when I can. Am cautious about trying to drive animals off but will do so if it seems feasible to do so safely. Doesn't depend on what firepower I have available as I consider that a last resort. Have seen bears, been in bear country, seen a whole lot more bear trees, tracks, and scat than actual bears. I treat bears the same way I would a large obnoxious drunk in a bar. I avoid them or leave the bar depending on the circumstances.

CJR

10-20-2018, 08:30 AM

RogerDat,

Sorry I didn't give you links to those two stories. But I thought it was obvious that all you had to do was type in what was in my quotation marks and hit your Search Key. Your computer will then take you directly to the actual accounts I referenced in quotation marks and many other stories as well.

Best regards,

CJR

P.S.

I decided to add a link to fatal black bear attacks in USA. Just remember that the likelihood of black bear encounters, based on the whole US population, is "skewed" statistically. As an example, in my prior hunting camp we had about thirty (30) members and for any given hunting day we had an average of about ten(10) members hunting. We had about three(3) "serious" run-ins with black bear; so, for our hunt club we members had a 3/10 or about a 30% likelihood of encountering a black bear. Point? Be careful how you interpret statistical data, based on the entire USA population, and then thinking that that likelihood of black bear encounters applies to your walk in the woods where there are black bears. It doesn't. If you are the ONLY ONE in an area, with a large population of black bears, you're at a significant risk of an black bear encounter.

Search for; "List of Fatal Black Bear Attacks in North America Over the Last 20 Years.html"

Lloyd Smale

10-21-2018, 06:22 AM

https://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/bears-a-humans/119-how-dangerous-are-black-bears.html

might want to carry bee spray and surely stay home if its raining too. 61 people in a 118 years! Probably more died tripping over a log then by bear attacks. I guess some should just put on a bullet proof vest in the morning and wrap themselves in 6 inches of bubble wrap and stay on the couch. probably more people in that time period were killed by air planes falling out of the sky. Don't go fishing either. Boats sink a lot more often then black bears attack. For sure don't dare drive a car on a public road or eat red meat or get within a mile of someone smoking a cigarette!! Hate to see how some that let fear control them would deal with a real combat situation. comparing black bear to griz and browns is like comparing your beagle to a wolf. Be stupid enough to Kick a beagle hard enough and often enough and it will probably go after you too. Like I said we have LOTS of black bear up here and in my lifetime ive never heard of a single person getting killed. If 30 percent of your hunting camp has had bad encounters with bears you have to be doing something pretty wrong. None at our camp or any camp I know in the area. If 1/3 of my family at camp had bad bear encounters id be buying a couple 458s for camp guns and would be calling the dnr to find out what the heck is going on because something is very wrong if your black bears are that aggressive.

had to chuckle last night. Theres a town near by (Wallace Michigan) that a guy has an enclosure and takes in injured and orphaned black bears. Peta is after him because he charges a few bucks for people to come and feed and pet them to offset the cost of his feed! Showed him walking into an enclosure with 6 bears with a bag of feed and sprinkling it around like he was feeding pigs. that brings up another dangerous game animal. Pigs. I have a buddy who has a Russian bore enclosed hunt. His pamphlet tells of the dangers;) involved in those hunts to stir up business. We were in there one day culling pigs that he didn't want and a guy from ohio had shot a red stag. Dave the owner was gutting it and we had about 20 pigs trying to get at the gut pile. Laughed my you know what off watching Dave giving them a kick in the but to get them away. One was a scrawny boar. one that dave wanted shot. He turned around and shot it in the heat with his 45 colt and told one of the kids that works for him to drag I 20 yards in the woods so the pigs would stay busy eating that bore instead of bothering us. Ever hear 20 pigs jaws crunching on a carcuss at the same time and fighting over scraps? That pig wasn't but a blood stain on the ground in 15 minutes. Thank God there not running around wild! There would be body's laying everywhere in the woods.

CJR

10-21-2018, 09:34 AM

In my view, this thread has significantly described two (2) opposite points of views on protecting one's self in black bear country. Though human fatalities, from black bears, are well documented (as shown in my posts); maulings by black bears are not documented or counted at all. Since we occasionally read about black bear maulings in the newspapers, that also must be part of our decision-making process on how to prepare for black bear encounters. But , in any case, I feel enough information has been presented in this thread to allow anyone, interested in personal black bear encounters, to make a reasonable decision on how to prepare or NOT prepare for a walk in black bear country. If I have raised anyone's awareness to the dangers of black bear encounters; I'm well pleased. But how you prepare for that walk in black bear country or what amount of risk you are willing to take is ultimately your choice.

Best regards,

CJR

Lloyd Smale

10-22-2018, 05:22 AM

yup carry a cannon if you want but heres a quote from another article.

While attacks by black bears in Pennsylvania do occur, they are exceedingly rare, statistically almost non-existent. Of course, those statistics aren't all that meaningful to the handful of people who have been attacked over the past few decades.

The Pennsylvania Game Commission has no record of any fatal attacks in Pennsylvania during the past century. The first one in New Jersey was recorded in fall 2014, and that was close to the state line with Pennsylvania.

Since 1884 there has been ONE person killed in PA by a black bear and that incident was a bear in captivity. If you want protection from danger in the woods youd be better off buying a helmet for tree limbs falling on your head. Or just stay home because the trip to the woods is 100s of times more dangerous then the bears in the woods. You will see me many times carrying a gun in the woods but for the most part I about always have a gun on me. I don't pretend that a bear is going to attack me or someone is going to shoot me in k mart. I carry a gun because I just like guns and its my right to carry one. Ill give you one bit of advice them ill let you have this thread. If you have a gun and see a bear in the woods you had better have some concrete proof that bear wanted to kill you if you shoot it because your probably in for more court time and lawyer fees then if you shot your neighbor. The game dept in your state KNOWS how rare attacks are and frown on people shooting them because they stumbled on one and are just scared. Bottom line is if theres no blood on you and you have no impartial witness they wont excuse it. they also know that 99 percent of bear mauling's are because someone did something real stupid. Unprovoked attacks by black bear are so rare that they don't bother with statistics. tin foil hat stuff. If I lived in griz/brown/polar bear habitat id probably think a bit different. But even attacks by them are blown way out of proportion to reality. I would have to think if 30 percent of my family was attacked in Walmart my first solution would be to tell them to stay out of Walmart. Not to return to Walmart the next day with a 44mag and shoot everyone that looks at your wrong or is walking toward them looking aggressive. I guess a day in the woods where there is a almost non existant threat doesn't even require me to put my big boy pants on let alone strap on a 44 mag. Life is just to full of REAL things to worry about to even give a thought to something like the sky falling. You can get the last word in now as I think anyone that really has lived around black bears knows the truth.

dragon813gt

10-22-2018, 07:11 AM

I would not say the PA Game Commission KNOWS anything. They’ve decimated deer herds w/ their poor management. They’ve denied coyotes being in areas well after the populations have been established. The list goes on and on. I have fewer gripes w/ the PAGC then most hunters. But even I have them.

It’s also funny how people use statistics to prove their point. And then deny statistics being “proof” when they’re used as a counterpoint to their argument.

Lloyd Smale

10-22-2018, 07:23 AM

copy and post the link he gave and it was for ALL bears not black bears. I posted FACTS on actual black bear caused deaths. I never said browns, grizzly and polar bears (the most dangerous) were not an issue. But even they are rare. 61 black bear deaths in a 118 years. that's one every two years. One case in your state and that was a bear in an enclosure not in the wild. Many more men are killed by there own wife or about any cause you can dream up. Maybe you should pack in bed at night. Do some here really need to feel they can handle danger so strongly they ignore the TRUTH and live in a fantasy world. Walking in the woods with those mean old bears isn't impressing anyone that knows better. this whole argument reminds me the liberals that think an ar15 will jump out of the safe, go full auto and kill everyone within a 2 mile radius. Like was said the chances of this happening are so slim that statistics aren't even needed. Whole argument is ridiculous.
I would not say the PA Game Commission KNOWS anything. They’ve decimated deer herds w/ their poor management. They’ve denied coyotes being in areas well after the populations have been established. The list goes on and on. I have fewer gripes w/ the PAGC then most hunters. But even I have them.

It’s also funny how people use statistics to prove their point. And then deny statistics being “proof” when they’re used as a counterpoint to their argument.

Lloyd Smale

10-22-2018, 08:01 AM

Lloyd Smale

10-22-2018, 08:06 AM

want more statistics. Heres Yellowstone park. If you've been there you know up close and personal interaction with bears is probably more prevalent there then anywhere in the US. This isn't just black bear either.
Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2018/05/bears-or-lightning-which-is-more-deadly/#ixzz5Uf0JpWpr
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

Since Yellowstone was established in 1872, eight people have been killed by bears in the park. More people in the park have died from drowning, burns (after falling into hot springs), and suicide than have been killed by bears. To put it in perspective, the probability of being killed by a bear in the park (8 incidents) is only slightly higher than the probability of being killed by a falling tree (6 incidents), in an avalanche (6 incidents), or being struck and killed by lightning (5 incidents).

If we throw out the fatality thing and just look at injurys heres Yellowstone again.

Since 1980, over 100 million people have visited Yellowstone. During this time, 38 people were injured by bears in the park. For all park visitors combined, the chances of being injured by a grizzly bear are approximately 1 in 2.7 million. The risk is significantly lower for people who don't leave developed areas. those are about lottery odds and again were talking grizzly bears and black bears. Im showing statistics. Where are statistics showing its actually something to worry about. Other then one posters claim that 30 percent of his camp have been attacked[smilie=l:. that one would surely qualify for the Guinness world book of records. maybe something happened. I don't know, I wasn't there but if it did id bet his definition of a bad bear encounter are sure different then mine. I would imagine theres some so scared of them that just seeing one in the wild is considered a bad encounter. Like I said this whole thing is ridiculous.

CJR

10-22-2018, 03:02 PM

Apparently, some are having trouble with some of my comments on references and statistics;

1. My reference;"List of Fatal Black Bear Attacks in North America Over the Last 20 Years". is specifically referencing black bear attacks. I don't know how someone can interpret it as being about other types of bears.
2. Using a large sample size (i.e. population) is commonly used to lower a statistical risk. So if I have ten (10) events divided by the population of an entire State, that event will have a very low risk. Also, that calculated risk also applies to every person in the State; even people living in large cities say like New York city. Now when we intentionally enter a smaller hunting area, we have the number of risks(i.e. number of black bears in that hunting area) divided by a lower population (i.e. people in that small hunting area) which increases our risks of an encounter. As the reference I cited clearly shows that black bears are unpredictable predators and not rabbits. They have a very keen sense of smell and can close the distance for an inspection or distance themselves from you. In my personal experience (i.e. 550lbs to 637 lb black bears) and knowledge of an 800 lb. black bear kill in my hunting area, the bigger the black bear the less likely they are to distance themselves from you, As my reference clearly shows, black bears will kill and eat adults if they feel they can. The fact that black bears can scent you and may choose to close the distance to you will increase the risk further. Just dividing the number of black bears by some population of people does not take into account the fact that a bear can scent you and close the distance to you. So the risk statistics cited, by others on this thread, is equivalent to having some number of say, Black Rocks, divided by some large people population; in other words it's the risk, of each member of a population, tripping over a Black Rock as they walk in an area or State.
3. The purpose of citing black bear encounters, from the 1800s to present, is only used to reduce the mathematical risk of black bear encounters. As an example, there are more deer in the USA today then in the 1800s; the deer population has steadily increased to the present. Likewise, black bear populations have also increased rapidly. Therefore, in my view, the fatalities caused by black bears, in the last 20 years is more relevant in assessing the risks of black bear encounters today simply because the black bear population is much larger than it was in the 1800s.
4. Finally, I know nothing about how Yellowstone Park manages their bear population with regard to tourists; nor do I really care. I'm only interested in where I scout and hunt and that area has a good number of large black bears.

Best regards,

CJR

Lloyd Smale

10-23-2018, 08:21 AM

your chance of running across a 500lb bear in the woods are probably as good of odds as one eating you. An 800lb black bear would make national news. Id bet 99 percent of the black bears shot in this country are under 300lbs. Probably a good 75 percent closer to 200. No matter where you live an 800lb black bear is a freak!!! Wear your tin foil hat if it makes you feel secure. Bears getting more frequent and so are attacks??? Heres some more FACTS check out the attacks that occurred since 2010 there are only 3 deaths in the continental US. 3!!! out the whole population of the continental United States!! One was a bunch of idiots that were warned there was a bear by another hiker that thought it would be fun to walk up close and take pictures. One an old cripple lady walking her dog, and one an a guy who totally illegaly had dangerous animals for pets. Sorry no 600lb bears hunting down and killing men and not a single one in PA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America Like I posted before not a single fatality in the last 100 years in your neck of the woods. That's probably 1000s of bear encounters without a single fatality.

Respect is one thing but fear is redicuolus. I was an electrical lineman. I wonder how many pa lineman were killed doing there job in that time period? I wonder how many loggers? I wonder how many white colar business men were killed in car wrecks on there way to work in there cubicles? I really wonder how many BRAVE PA men died in combat in that time period? be careful though because smokys looking for breakfast. Lots of real danger in the world today. Enough so that I don't have to create fantasy's. there is TWO dangerous animals in the US today and that's the grizzly bear and MAN. Well maybe 3. Some rare places in this US have cougar problems too and they can be aggressive but its almost as rare as black bears and isn't a wide spread problem. Personaly id feel more comfortable walking in the woods knowing there was two black bear every square mile then two rattle snakes. Snakes kill ALOT more people every year in this country then smoky is responsible for.

To me its about like going to Miami on vacation and being afraid to go into the water because you might get ate by a shark! Truth be told the ride to camp is more dangerous then the bears and the flight to Miami is more dangerous then the chance of a shark attack and the car ride to the airport is more dangerous then either. Want to be safer next hunting season? Forget the bear protection and leave the car at home and walk to camp or just stay home if your that insecure. Got to go now. Its time to take the dog for a walk. Now wheres my 458????

Lloyd Smale

10-23-2018, 08:57 AM

heres some more FACTS on dangerous things in the united states. Best take lots of bug spray to camp too. https://historylist.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/human-deaths-in-the-us-caused-by-animals/

CJR

10-23-2018, 10:08 AM

Lloyd,

Thank you so much for your astute response. I see now that you like to further minimize the risks of black bear encounters by comparing the black bear encounters to the ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE USA, which is a sample size of about 325,000,000 people. Yeah right.

Regarding black bears killed in PA. All black bear kills in PA are supposed to be reported to the PA Game Commission and are thus recorded. So instead of "cherry picking" your fact sources; you need to ask the PA Game Commission for the PA black bear kills/weights instead of citing Wiki-whatever. I completely understand you're having a real hard time accepting facts, but the facts remain;

1. Your risk of encountering black bears ALWAYS INCREASES WHEN YOU ENTER BLACK BEAR COUNTRY. A much greater rick than entering your local Walmart or the risk to about 325,000,000 people living in the USA.
2. Black bears are PREDATORS and always have been PREDATORS and are not play-animals or friends of children. It is fact that they have run-down, killed or mauled or eaten babies, children, and adults.

Whether you believe or accept these facts is immaterial to me. My sole purpose here is to increase the awareness of the greater risk of black bear encounters when one enters an area containing black bear. How anyone, prepares for that walk in a black bear area, is their choice alone.

Oh and thanks again for recommending I carry a large broom in bear country. That's the best tip I've ever received.

Best regards,

CJR

charlie b

10-23-2018, 10:18 AM

I find the Yellowstone statistics amusing.

Yep, MILLIONS of visitors every year. And all but a handful stay on roads or pathways and have no interaction nor do they even get near a bear. Some may get to see one at a distance. They are not actually IN bear habitat. The campers are more at danger due to garbage, but, in recent decades that has been controlled tightly. Now days the danger are the idiot tourists who run into the field to get a picture with the bear. So the statistics on bear attacks should be limited to the idiots and those who actually hike into the habitat, probably in the hundreds per year, not millions.

The rangers at Yellowstone all carry bear spray since many of them actually work in the bear habitat. The ones I have talked to say that it works most of the time, ie, if they are not between a mother and cub.

Lloyd Smale

10-24-2018, 07:16 AM

show me your statistics. Im looking up facts. Didn't cherry pick a thing. All you have is opinion. Like I said before it reminds me of liberals trying to an ar15 will jump out of the safe and kill you all by itself. Show me some facts that prove I should be nervous taking a walk in the woods. As to my chances of a bear attack increasing when I go where they are is kind of silly. Of course it does. But then they are in my back yard and the reality is theres trees in the woods to and even though more people are killed in the woods by them then bears I don't wear a helmet when I walk n the woods. No wild animal is a pet and you need tor respect them and respect the fact that your in there home. Which is proven by statistics that show most who have bad encounters did something stupid to start with. Black bears arent sneaking around looking for humans to eat.

Like I said some just want to think there brave just walking in the woods. Most of us were out in black bear country when we were 10 years old with or daisy bb gun. The fact that you cant show cases of deaths caused by black bear in your state is all the proof I need or anyone should need. If you feel you need a SAW and some bandoleros of ammo to walk out in the back yard of your camp then do it. I promise I wont laugh;) Man I hope I never have to walk in the woods in the very dangerous state of PA. Heck a volcano might erupted a plane fall out of the sky or big foot might kill me. About the same odds as 800lb killer black bears.

I showed you the real facts now you dig around and find some bear kills that the pa game commission hidden from us. SHOW ME THE MONEY! Heck I wouldn't even recommend a broom for you. Im sure in the past 100 years more then one person died from an infected wood splinter in PA. Buy some Kevlar for a first layer and then wrap yourself and your family in bubble wrap and head to the basement. Be careful on the steps though. Many in Pa have been killed in the last 100 years falling down steps. [smilie=l: Sorry If I offend you in any way. Its not your fault. Its no doubt where and how you were raised. I have to leave this one now for good because if I told you how I really thought it would be much more personal and I don't want a time out. Its an absolute fact that your chance of going for a walk in the woods today and getting killed by a bear is probably a great or even greater then winning the power ball lottery tonight. If you have FACTs that show different then post them but my guess is if they were out there you would have done that already.
Lloyd,

Thank you so much for your astute response. I see now that you like to further minimize the risks of black bear encounters by comparing the black bear encounters to the ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE USA, which is a sample size of about 325,000,000 people. Yeah right.

Regarding black bears killed in PA. All black bear kills in PA are supposed to be reported to the PA Game Commission and are thus recorded. So instead of "cherry picking" your fact sources; you need to ask the PA Game Commission for the PA black bear kills/weights instead of citing Wiki-whatever. I completely understand you're having a real hard time accepting facts, but the facts remain;

1. Your risk of encountering black bears ALWAYS INCREASES WHEN YOU ENTER BLACK BEAR COUNTRY. A much greater rick than entering your local Walmart or the risk to about 325,000,000 people living in the USA.
2. Black bears are PREDATORS and always have been PREDATORS and are not play-animals or friends of children. It is fact that they have run-down, killed or mauled or eaten babies, children, and adults.

Whether you believe or accept these facts is immaterial to me. My sole purpose here is to increase the awareness of the greater risk of black bear encounters when one enters an area containing black bear. How anyone, prepares for that walk in a black bear area, is their choice alone.

Oh and thanks again for recommending I carry a large broom in bear country. That's the best tip I've ever received.

Best regards,

CJR