resizing 9mm luger to 9mm makarov issue

[40pa]

I recently picked up a pa63. I decided to go the route of resizing 9mm luger brass to 9mm makarov via the lee 3-die set for makarov(de-priming/resizing), then using the lee case trimmer for the makarov. I shot my first batch today. 2 issues maybe people here can help me with. 1. The spent brass (resized) I picked up after firing has quite a bit of powder burn on it(as does the feed ramp). Is that telling me that the case did not expand enough during the resizing and hence during firing? (even after resizing I noted that the resized brass was still about .003" narrower than the few spent original makarov cases I have) 2. I reloaded cast boolits weighing about 100grams with 4.2 grains(lowest charge recommended) of alliant power pistol. These shot EXTREMELY high at 25 yards. I had to aim at the bottom of a 8.5X11 sheet of paper with a target printed on it to hit the target (aiming much lower than the actual target) I have only shot about 50 rounds of commercial ammo through this gun, and it was a mixed lot off fmj and jhp. The commercial rounds did not shoot near this high. Not knowing the weight of the commercial rounds, would it be correct to assume that the velocity is higher because I am using cast bullets, causing higher impact? Should I decrease the powder charge? Thanks in advance for any help.

[mooman76]

Try increasing your powder charge. If you increase your charge the brass will expand more and seal the gases. Believe it or not sometimes an increase in charge in pistols will bring your bullet impact down and it might put you there where you are wanting to be. It may or may not work but load up a few rounds and give it a try.

[dbldblu]

My PA63 shoots high with everything I have tried in it. The Lee 95 grain works quite well, however. My example casts at .368"! I load it unsized and it chambers fine in my gun, YMMV. If your boolits are too small, you will get sooty cases. Good luck, they are a fun pistol.

[9.3X62AL]

Sooty cases often means low-powered ammo & insufficient case expansion. The high hit placement has to do with "barrel time"--a slower bullet leaves the barrel at a point where recoil has turned its axis upward further than sight picture places the bullet strike. A warmer load may resolve both issues for you.

[40pa]

Thanks for all the ideas guys. I slugged the bore and the cast boolits are alittle over .001" bigger than the barrel diameter. I will slowly increase the charge until either the issues resolve or I get close to maximum (seeing as I started with 4.2 and the maximum is 4.7, I have a little play room).

[Ghugly]

Be cautious. The resized 9MM will have a smaller capacity than factory cases. Also, the first firing will fire form the cases and the second firing should be closer to factory specifications. Sounds like you're on your way but keep in mind that a max charge in a Makarov case is not the same as a max charge in a cut-down Luger case. I've used them a lot and they do fine. I've had good luck with 3.2gr of Bullseye, the 95gr Lee, and cut-down Luger cases in the PA-63.

[wiljen]

midway has Starline made 9x18 brass for <$20 per 100 or J&G Sales has S&B 95gr FMJ brass cased, boxer primed rounds for $14.50 per 50.

With those prices, I would start out with properly sized brass. If they were more $, I'd certainly try to use the cheaper 9mm luger.

[40pa]

Be cautious. The resized 9MM will have a smaller capacity than factory cases. Also, the first firing will fire form the cases and the second firing should be closer to factory specifications. Sounds like you're on your way but keep in mind that a max charge in a Makarov case is not the same as a max charge in a cut-down Luger case. I've used them a lot and they do fine. I've had good luck with 3.2gr of Bullseye, the 95gr Lee, and cut-down Luger cases in the PA-63.
Thanks for the info on the second firing as well as the caution. I was going to start out .2 grains more than I did last time and work up .1 from there and stay under the max charge by .1 (max charge for power pistol is 4.7, I wasn't going over 4.6). I respect gun powder. I am getting low on power pistol and may pick up some bullseye.


midway has Starline made 9x18 brass for <$20 per 100 or J&G Sales has S&B 95gr FMJ brass cased, boxer primed rounds for $14.50 per 50.

With those prices, I would start out with properly sized brass. If they were more $, I'd certainly try to use the cheaper 9mm luger.

Yeah, I just ordered 200. I just got too impatient waiting [smilie=1: and with all the luger brass laying around my range... :twisted:

[9.3X62AL]

+1 to Will's recommendation. When my Mak got here in 1992, and no brass existed for the caliber--it made sense to cut down and expand 9 x 19 brass. No mas. I grabbed some of the Starline product, and haven't looked back. Case trimming is just slightly more pleasant than a root canal, AFAIC.

[missionary5155]

I have 2 pa-63 and I tried the "blowing out" 9mm cases... It just is not worth the hassle.
And if your PA63 shoots high... Increase the powder .. unless you are at max..

[40pa]

+1 to Will's recommendation. When my Mak got here in 1992, and no brass existed for the caliber--it made sense to cut down and expand 9 x 19 brass. No mas. I grabbed some of the Starline product, and haven't looked back. Case trimming is just slightly more pleasant than a root canal, AFAIC.


You know, I first tried trimming with a drill press and lee's cutter and guide. That was a little bit of a PITA. Then I ordered that cheap lee string zip cutter. I know, I know Lee is a bad word, but I have to admit, I like it. I knocked out about 100 last night pretty quickly. I like that cheap little thing. No it isn't cast iron beast but it will trim cases quickly and cheaply. If you don't ape the thing it will last. I am heading to the range in the next couple days to try out an increased powder charge in 1)the prior sized and once fired brass, and 2)in the newly sized non-fired brass to see if the increased charge solves the leak or 2nd firing, or a combination of both.

[mauser1959]

If your going to get starline brass, Graf and sons had it for a bit cheaper. I am fairly close to both companies, but graf seems to me to be easier to deal with. It is kindly sad , I like graf better than midway, but most of the time end up ordering from midway... both are awesome Mo companies.

[Sprue]

Cut down 9mm brass is all that I've ever used. Have the 6 banger Lee swc mold that drops em around 95 gr. POI has never been an issue with my bulgy.

To your issue though, I assume that you are crimping. More important, never exceed 1k fps at least in a true mak, not sure the the Pa's.

Like stated above the 2nd firing should do better.

[jim4065]

Why not buy directly from Starline? They will sell cheaper than either Midway or Grafs.

http://www.starlinebrass.com/

[mauser1959]

Thanks Jim , the last time I looked I do not remember seeing starline selling makarov brass to civilians. I also have a question since you seem to be on top of things , I own 4 cz82s and I was told that polygonal rifled barrels would not shoot lead bullets... Is that true.

Since starline and Sieara are connected , I will try to see if my buddy can get me a better price on the Makarov brass... sure would be sweet.

[9.3X62AL]

[QUOTE=mauser1959;409379]I was told that polygonal rifled barrels would not shoot lead bullets... Is that true. QUOTE]

This question comes up a lot, esp. in the context of Glock pistols. Answers are all over the map, from "It's no problem" to DEFCON 4/WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!! My own experience with polygonal rifling was with a Glock 21 in 45 ACP, which has an octagonal bore form. Most of the other pistol calibers have a hexagonal form, dunno if that makes a difference or not.

The Makarov runs at much less pressure than either the 9mm Luger or 40 S&W, much closer to that of the 45 ACP. I had zero issues with cast boolits in my G-21, they shot well and gave zero leading. The 32 ACP and 380 ACP are both pretty decent cast boolit calibers, and in my Mak castings work wonderfully. It is certainly worth a try, I would think.

[mauser1959]

Thanks 9.3;
That is information that I have been looking for... now if I can learn to load a self loader right. I guess if one of the guns lead up to bad , I can always clean them very well and use the reloads in my Makarov.

[jim4065]

I've heard that polygonal increases both pressure and velocity. Why this should be worse for cast than condums eludes me - but it may be that cast obturates better. Shot a lot of cast in the Glock 22, but maybe it's a bad idea. You might want to get more experience before "pushing the envelope". Seems like when you back off just a little bit, your confidence in the gun and load increase disproportionately, i.e. it's more fun when there's no worry.

Al and most others here have a lot more experience than me. You'll get a bunch of differing opinions, so enjoy the journey.........:drinks:

[9.3X62AL]

ANY cast boolit exploration in a rifle or pistol should start with a dimensions check--SLUG THAT CRITTER.

I ran dead-soft lead slugs through the Glock's bore. The bore form showed roughly equal areas of flats measuring .449" and peaks measuring .453". The polygonal form is a whole 'nuther animal, for sure--but even a social science major like me can see that the surface dimensions averaged right around the 45 ACP's nominal .451" found in groove/land barrels. What that means.......I dunno. But there it is there.

I ran Lymans #452374, #452460, and the Lee 230 TC in both WW metal and in 92/6/2 alloy, sized to both .452" and to .454". I'll save you all the gymnastics and foofahrah, and say that from 750 to 900 FPS using Bullseye, WW-231, and Unique powders that metallurgy and dimensions didn't matter a bit--with 50/50 Alox/beeswax lube, there wasn't a speck of leading and performance was excellent. Accuracy was as good or better than Winchester white box 230 ball ammo.

The Browning-inspired ACP calibers (32, 380, 45) are all pretty lead-friendly autopistol chamberings. All share straightwall case construction, moderate operating pressures, and relative ease of reloading via lack of quirks and surprises. These same features are part and parcel of the 9mm Makarov, and the Mak has been a VERY SATISFYING cast boolit caliber in my East German pistol. I use the RCBS 100 grain blunt RN, and its accuracy beats any jacketed bullet I've tried, from 900 to 1100 FPS.

[lar45]

First question: Is the PA-63 a locked breach? Or is it a blow back like the Makarov pistols are? I'm pretty sure it's a blow back. So make sure that you watch your powder charge and pressures especially with modified brass.
You may get to too high of pressure and damage your gun before expanding the 9mm para(9x19mm) brass to fit the chamber.

You could take one of your empty 9x18 cases and measure the water capacity, then one of the cut down 9x19 cases.
If the case mouth doesn't expand and seal the chamber, then you will get burned powder down the side of the case.

If you are going to use the trimmed down 9x19 cases, then you might try over expanding them slightly with the expander die. Then run them through the sizer die to see if they are closer to the right size.
You may want to mark your trimmed cases somehow so they don't get mixed in with 9x19 stuff.

I have an East German Mak and used trimmed 9x19 cases without any problems. I also loaded 115gn 9mm (.355") JHPs and they shot rather well.

[9.3X62AL]

I should note herein that I expanded my 9mm Luger casings after trimming to length by use of the 9mm Makarov die set's expander plug--they were NOT fire-formed to straighten and expand.

Sprue--you state that the velocity in a true Mak should not exceed 1000 FPS. Could you expand on that a bit? I ask because the slide mass and spring rate of the Mak is so much heavier than that of a 380 ACP Walther that I felt those characteristics were to address the greater pressure from the Russian-spec ammo, which runs @1100 FPS or so. You've piqued my curiosity, and my safety concerns.

[rwt101]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I have the same problem only with starline brass. The lee sizing die makes the starline brass too small .382. Starline brass comes new at .386. A factory shell is also .386. Mak is .390. So what I am finding is that the reload is too small for the chambr. If you look at the primer you will find that they are off center as far as the strikes. Any help would be appreciated
Bob T

[mauser1959]

Those of you whom are having problems with starline brass, have you written to the owners of starline? As a good friend with one of their former employers... well actually sierra; he tells me that they are some of the best guys in the world to work with. I know that I have been considering reloading on the Makarov because I have so many pistols in that caliber, but have not taken the plunge yet.

[docjim]

I have found that the CZ82 was designed along with a special S&B load which has about 20% more velocity than a standard Makarov. It was designed to meet a Czech Army spec for defensive handgun at 'close' range. See link below**
The Poly rifling was used because the bullet was a 69gr "Sintered" (Powdered Pressed) metal and standard rifling was too hard on it. I believe the Poly rifling is easier to accomodate & likely lowers pressure rather than increase it...
I am using cut down 9X19 brass because right now the 9X18 is backordered everywhere! I found 1000 9X19 for $30... I am having good luck with cast wheelweight in a 93gr .365" mold (actually weighs 104gr) over 3.5gr W231. This gives just over 1000 fps according to text but I will verify ths weekend with chronograph. This is the Standard Mak load & I plan to develop this in stages to see what is possible. I figure it should be about 4.0-4.2gr of W231 without getting too drastic..
I am weighing each load right now but when I get my load figured I will likely throw by volume but only if I am satisfied with the results of my Lee Powder Measure.
I use a 9X18 RCBS carbide 3 die set. I lightly lube my brass w/ ballistol first time through the sizing die.
1st, full resize & deprime (you may have to extend the deprimer pin a bit). 2nd, Expand enough to fit & trim to 18mm. 3rd, resize case again, prime, & then expand to fit bullet. 4th, Charge case, then Press & Taper crimp.
Trimming the cases at step 2. The 9mm mak trimmer will only fit if you expand the case mouth a bit. I put the case holder in a slow cordless drill & trim to length using a Lee case trimmer. I use a fine file to smooth the mouth outside & inside for burrs. I check every few cases for length. After trimming a batch I again full case length resize before expanding for the bullet to fit.
After shooting them or "fire size" I skip this step but feel it's important after trimming to reshape the case taper for better fit & headspacing.
At 4gr a shot W231 proves very frugal. Any other thoughts on powders??

"DOC" Jim R

NOTE** http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/rangereport_vz82/index.asp
This details the background of that info.

[rwt101]

You are doing just what I do. Only differance is I am using BullsEye powder. I am at 3.8 to 4.0 of BE . I have not a lot of these yet.

Bob T

[TCLouis]

rwt101

Are you using only Starline 9X18 or reformed 9X19 brass?

[rwt101]

I have both but am using the reformed brass.

9x19 cut down to 9x18. The only difference, from what I read, was that the cut down brass may have less capacity.

Bob T

[NickSS]

I have two pistols with polygonal bores a glock 17 and a Baby Eagle both are 9mm and I have shot lead in both with good results. My slugs were sided 357 in both and work very well. I will not say that they shoot MOA but then I can;t shoot MOA with any pistol so keeping them all in the 10 ring will have to be good enough for me.

[Jal5]

I use cut down 9mm Luger cases in my 9mm Mak CZ82 similar process to that described already here. 3.6-3.7 g. Bullseye and CCI small primer with Berry's 95g. bullet. Really good accuracy for me.

Joe

[helg]

I have made a custom insert for Lee neck expander/charger die. The insert completely removes taper on the 9x19 brass. Then, after sizing, and cutting a millimeter, the brass has exact same dimensions as stock 9x19. Attached is a picture of improvised expander insert - between stock insert and the expander die. It is just a bolt and a nut with grinded heads to fit into the die. Simple jig, but it does the job.

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc272/helgp/mak-die-expander-insert-s.jpg