View Full Version : Cheap India guns
waksupi
10-03-2018, 12:16 AM
A good cautionary topic about these pieces of pure ****.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/a-cautionary-tale-about-indian-repros-t1466.html?sid=0336afc47e9ecbe8fdcdfb79863ce6b3
indian joe
10-03-2018, 06:28 AM
A good cautionary topic about these pieces of pure ****.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/a-cautionary-tale-about-indian-repros-t1466.html?sid=0336afc47e9ecbe8fdcdfb79863ce6b3
Lots of questions around this
I reckon I could find you ten (at least) 12 gauge ML shotgun barrels made from seamless drawn hydraulic or steam tube - shot in regular competition - normal loads - no blow ups - some of em been going thirty years -- ounce and an eigth shot load, 65 to 90 grains of Fg or FFg, appropriate card wads - good, careful operators, that made their barrel, load it right, clean it properly and dont come to any harm.
There seems to be an idea among re enactors that blackpowder behind a toilet paper wad cant generate pressure .......B S...... and further they dont seem to make any connection between the louder boom they get with heavy wadding and increased pressure. Thats plain crazy!
110 grains of blackpowder and too much TP wadding would have enough energy to blow pretty near any barrel - who knows how much this dude stuffed down bore!
Yeah the gun might have been a piece of junk but I bet there also some serious operator problems involved.
curator
10-03-2018, 08:03 AM
Waksupi,
An interesting thread with comments by "mostly" knowledgeable people. Not to condemn an entire class of black powder shooters, but my experience with "reenactors" makes me suspicious of a serious unintentional (probably but not necessarily) overload caused this failure. A double or even triple charge of FFFg powder might result in a split barrel. No reenactment scenario that I know of would involve a wad of any sort being rammed down the barrel--again calling into question how and what the gun was loaded with.
THAT blown pipe bomb gun was junk from the get-go. any and all of those india guns are suspect on many many levels. like playing russian roulette, which with these guns is just as stupid and suicidal.
1Hawkeye
10-03-2018, 08:43 AM
Most of those junkers from India are made for the tourists as wall hangers. I can't believe someone was actually stupid enough to fire one. If he really is a reinactor then he knows that the maximum charge for a round is 60 grs and no wadding.
bob208
10-03-2018, 10:06 AM
I have seen a lot of those Indian guns .one ousabler two were usable but on the whole I would say they are nice wall hangers.
Ragnarok
10-03-2018, 10:06 AM
Hmmm....the Euroarms 1861 .58 rifle/musket I bought used a month ago says '.58 3 drams' on the bottom of the barrel. I presume this is a max charge as I believe 3 drams equates to approx. 80 gr powder.
My IAB Sharps 1863 carbine destruction manual lists 80gr 2F as max load.
My ancient 'Black Powder Handbook' lists service charges for original and reproduction guns. The book lists 60gr as service load for both the 1861 musket and percussion Sharps .54....I'll have to look to see what the service load is for a Brown Bess .75....However I am guessing it ain't 110gr powder!
Seems I do recall that the destruction manual for my TC Renegade .54 listed charges up to 120gr for round ball....but that's with a thick rifle barrel and not a thin musket barrel. The black powder handbook I have has an article about the diminishing returns of larger and larger powder charges charting the bullet velocities for various quanities of powder and it becomes obvious that huge charges add little if any more velocity per shot....the excess powder just making more recoil and smoke.
Not sure just how that might relate to the needs of a reenactor for smoke and BOOM. That link above with the destroyed musket is old...l've read the link before in discussions over the merits of cheap Indian muskets. I am not going to judge the guns over a burst barrel or two....some folks have a talent for destroying guns and it's never their fault!
i went to a event were the REV WAR, reinactors fired only blanks for the public at the event. and after it was over i said to one of the historic group members my god your BROWN BESS was rely a mess from all day of shooting for the public, and you certainly have your cleaning cut out for you tonight. he said to me clean what we only shoot black powder and next week we will be doing it all over again, the muskets are only REPROS.! WOW!! now that is scary. do you think this practice could contribute to a catastrophic failure??
toot, it might not if they're only loading powder and not using any manner of wadding (which they shouldn't be using, anyway).
in any event, not cleaning up a fired bp gun is just being lazy and will lead to ignition issues and corroded metal, far sooner than later, contributing to an unsafe firearm.
Ragnarok
10-03-2018, 10:27 AM
My biggest issue with the Indian made flintlocks are that they are shipped without a touch-hole drilled...so these are not fired or proofed at the factory in any manner.
RED BEAR
10-03-2018, 10:47 AM
enough powder will blow up any gun its not that hard to do. the trick is to know what you have and load accordingly.
so you guys are saying you can shoot a round ball out of a gun but cant put a wad over the charge and shoot it.
waksupi
10-03-2018, 11:42 AM
In a quality 12 bore gun, 110 gr. of either 2FF or 3FFF are safe. DOM tubing does indeed have a weak seam, they are just hidden by drawing a button through to smooth the cylinder. You might buy a cheap India gun, but hospital bills tend to be expensive.
arcticap
10-03-2018, 02:14 PM
I think another important lesson here is about how a constriction can cause just about any barrel to rupture even if it's made
from the best modern gun steel.
I watched a video of a Canadian hunter (along with his pal who was making the video ) take a shot at a deer with IIRC, a modern .270 bolt action rifle.
It had been raining earlier not long before the shot was taken, and then the temperature cooled down.
They weren't sure if there was water in the barrel that froze or not, or if it was only water in the barrel that caused it to rupture.
But upon taking the shot, the barrel ruptured which was quite shocking to see it happen after the trigger was pulled.
Luckily the shooter was unhurt.
This video was published on an alternative video hosting website and not youtube.
I don't remember there being any snow on the ground, and it wasn't a deep winter hunt.
Just a cold weather hunt I guess.
My point is that when hunting where there's any chance of snow, water, dirt, rocks, mud or ice etc.. entering the muzzle of the barrel,
that the muzzle should be covered and protected to prevent anything that can cause an obstruction or constriction from entering it.
CVA has videos dedicated to showing how easy it is to blow up any model or make of muzzle loader due to various forms of barrel obstructions.
They intentionally caused the rupture of multiple makes of muzzle loader barrels and warn to be careful about using safe loading procedures, and
now I'm trying to refresh people's memories from when they first took a hunter safety course and were warned about protecting their muzzle from
any foreign debris entering their bore.
I always try to cover the muzzle with a balloon stretched over it and then secure it with a rubber band when hunting during our winter muzzle loading
deer season held in mid to late December here in New England.
Some people place tape over their muzzle.
Clumps of snow fall from tree limbs, people accidently dip their muzzle into the snow, can slip, stumble or fall with the muzzle dipping into mud or muck.
With many modern weapons and designs, the bore can be easily checked to see if it's clear and unobstructed.
But with traditional muzzle loaders, that's not so easy when out in the field.
Especially if it starts out as being simple rain drops.
If more people were aware of the potential for rupture from moisture or frozen moisture in their barrel, perhaps more people would try to prevent it
or check for it when the temperatures drop.
Be safe. Constrictions don't only affect cheap guns made in India.
A rupture can happen to any gun, even the best guns made from the best steel and to the highest standards.
Buzzard II
10-03-2018, 02:32 PM
....yeah, but I'll bet it was cheap.
curator
10-03-2018, 02:33 PM
he said to me, clean what? We only shoot black powder and next week we will be doing it all over again, the muskets are only REPROS.! WOW!! now that is scary. do you think this practice could contribute to a catastrophic failure??
I am always suspicious of "operator error" when I see a firearm blown up with blank charges by a reenactor. After 30+ years of working with, supervising, and training reenactors as safety officer, events coordinator and muzzle loading instructor, I have come to realize that a large portion of their ranks are composed of people who are quite ignorant of firearms maintenance and safety. Many do not clean their guns until they take them out to prepare for the next event often months later. Misfires, hang fires, and double charges (both intentional and unintentional) are common. Only a few of them can tell you the difference between 3Fg and Fg black powder. I once investigated when a reenactor's gun sounded way over charged and found he had loaded his cartridges with FFFFg black powder "to get a better report." We used to make the reenactors tie their loading rods in their muskets so they wouldn't be tempted to use them to add wadding. Several shot loading rods later we demanded they physically remove them before being allowed on the field. Reenactors complain about very restrictive rules making events less fun but without careful scrutiny and control, safety gets thrown out the window. I would not even allow reenactors to use their own made-up paper cartridges and inspect horns and pouches to prevent them from slipping in a couple of ear-splitting loads.
JoeJames
10-03-2018, 03:32 PM
I am always suspicious of "operator error" when I see a firearm blown up with blank charges by a reenactor. After 30+ years of working with, supervising, and training reenactors as safety officer, events coordinator and muzzle loading instructor, I have come to realize that a large portion of their ranks are composed of people who are quite ignorant of firearms maintenance and safety. Many do not clean their guns until they take them out to prepare for the next event often months later. Misfires, hang fires, and double charges (both intentional and unintentional) are common. Only a few of them can tell you the difference between 3Fg and Fg black powder. I once investigated when a reenactor's gun sounded way over charged and found he had loaded his cartridges with FFFFg black powder "to get a better report." We used to make the reenactors tie their loading rods in their muskets so they wouldn't be tempted to use them to add wadding. Several shot loading rods later we demanded they physically remove them before being allowed on the field. Reenactors complain about very restrictive rules making events less fun but without careful scrutiny and control, safety gets thrown out the window. I would not even allow reenactors to use their own made-up paper cartridges and inspect horns and pouches to prevent them from slipping in a couple of ear-splitting loads.
Thanks for the post; I had not thought about some reenactors not all being that knowledgeable about firearms. Interesting point - it's not like folks competing in say a rifle match. One note on wadding; my dad said there was a Shivaree back here in the hills in the 1920's. Newly married couple in a plank cabin, and some feller fired a muzzle loader which was just loaded with tick cloth wadding against the cabin wall. Wadding killed the bride.
Steppenwolf
10-03-2018, 05:54 PM
I have two of them, both were inspected, tuned and proofed by a gunsmith and fifteen years with no problems.
smokeywolf
10-03-2018, 06:29 PM
I'm not a real trusting person. Wasn't there so didn't see the musket loaded. Could have been "operator malfunction". As far as the manufacturer goes, I just don't see a whole lot of wisdom in buying something, especially something that is supposed to contain an explosion, from someone or an entity that has little if anything to lose if that item fails.
Also, there is reason to be suspicious when a particular country has a well publicized reputation for both producing junk and treating their workers like k-rap.
indian joe
10-03-2018, 06:54 PM
so you guys are saying you can shoot a round ball out of a gun but cant put a wad over the charge and shoot it.
NO ......I am saying careless use of toilet paper wadding (using it in excess amount) could easily create a bore obstruction situation and blow a barrel that was quite safe with a normal round ball load. We dont know what was done to blow this barrel OR it may have just been **** steel
Someplace there was a detailed analysis of one of these blows and the conclusion at the end was the re enector had not cleaned his gun (go above to Toot post #9) the crud steadily built up part way down bore until it became a bore obstruction - there was talk of oil of some sort that added to the caking - who knows - always we need to consider is the guy (who does the analysis) out to prove a particular idea or to disprove something else
I read an article in our shooters journal back in the late 60's (maybe), titled "Guns, Hashish and Coca Cola" .....story of the Khyber Pass gunmakers - with a hand powered lathe, files and chisel - these guys could make a copy of any gun you wanted - but they couldnt get decent steel - (had they been able to they probably couldnt machine it with their crude gear) - the writer said the AK47 might only shoot a couple of magazines full before it blew - he ended by saying these guys would (almost) give their right arm for a proper made Lee enfield rifle because the knew it was made from good steel.
indian joe
10-03-2018, 07:13 PM
My biggest issue with the Indian made flintlocks are that they are shipped without a touch-hole drilled...so these are not fired or proofed at the factory in any manner.
If they are shipped without a touch-hole drilled that pretty much lets the Indians off the hook (smart plan hey?) Whoever drills that hole turns it from an unfireable ornament into a working firearm. All we need now is some lawyer that works no win-no pay!!
reivertom
10-03-2018, 08:26 PM
The question to ask is..."Is saving a few hundred bucks on a musket worth your fingers, eyesight, or life?" There are too many good quality, Italian made muskets around to shoot this 3rd World trash.
waksupi
10-03-2018, 08:42 PM
As far as no vent being drilled, that is a requirement for some countries to export. I know the Black Watch pistols out of England also come without the vent drilled.
The only India gun I closely inspected, had only a quarter inch of thread engagement on the breech plug. I've had others report the same thing. No way in hell would I ever touch that one off. The only reason I would ever allow one in my shop, is to fill the bore with cement so someone didn't hurt their self.
DIRT Farmer
10-03-2018, 09:32 PM
I have seen some of these guns that looked good on the outside, but I also saw a sectioned barrel on a tower pistol that had a shrink fitted breach plug, I fired a simular gun in reenactments. That pistol got a cutting torch. I was at an reenactionment where a group of French Marines [renactactors ] were invited to shoot their guns at targets. We obtained ffg and round balls. We had arguments from some of them, they wanted to use their standard 110 grain load of ffffg that they used in blanks.
Earlwb
10-03-2018, 10:41 PM
Well, if the India guns come without the flash hole drilled, then these guns are for decoration only, not to be fired. They can't proof them like that of course. Any excuse or story they come up with as to why is just lying about it.
Ragnarok
10-04-2018, 12:35 AM
Well, if the India guns come without the flash hole drilled, then these guns are for decoration only, not to be fired. They can't proof them like that of course. Any excuse or story they come up with as to why is just lying about it.
That's likely what the Indian manufacturers figure...easier to import into delicate locations as a non-firing replica....drill the flash-hole at your own risk. These have supposedly got better since the mentioned 2007 musket burst...however no flash-hole...no factory fire or proofs. Does not mean I won't buy a US pattern M1795 musket from them....just means I want someone else to pick scrap-iron from their face after a shot and tell me they are good to go!
Hamish
10-04-2018, 07:59 AM
A good cautionary topic about these pieces of pure ****.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/a-cautionary-tale-about-indian-repros-t1466.html?sid=0336afc47e9ecbe8fdcdfb79863ce6b3
The amount of ignorance and insanity in that thread just flat gives me the willies,,,,,,,.
mazo kid
10-04-2018, 03:39 PM
Yes, the India guns are made to a price. Yes, they come from there without touch holes being drilled. I think that makes them a non-firearm to get around shipping hassles. There was a long discussion about the DOM barrels on the Muzzleloading Forum; lots of opinions on how safe (or not) those guns are. Many years ago in the old Black Powder Report magazine put out by John Baird, he and Jerry Cunningham (Sharon Rifle Co?) were having an ongoing debate over the relative safety of repro gun barrels. Cunningham ran tests using ELECTRICAL CONDUIT! and it took a LOT of powder before the pipe finally blew, don't remember the amount after all these years. I guess my take is to know your gun, take care in loading and cleaning and observe all safety considerations. I have a friend who has an India-made double barrel flint fowler; he did extensive work reshaping the wood and has not had any problem shooting normal loads.
mazo kid
10-04-2018, 03:58 PM
Another question.....110 grains of "black powder". What kind and what granulation? 110 grains of ffffg? Maybe loaded from the priming horn? Lots of unknowns yet.
marlin39a
10-04-2018, 04:31 PM
Who's selling these junk guns in the US? I've never seen one.
Nobade
10-04-2018, 04:47 PM
Who's selling these junk guns in the US? I've never seen one.http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket1.htm
Who's selling these junk guns in the US? I've never seen one.
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/index.shtml
Steppenwolf
10-04-2018, 05:54 PM
The amount of ignorance and insanity in that thread just flat gives me the willies,,,,,,,.
Something like this thread.
FrontierMuzzleloading
10-04-2018, 06:01 PM
is the breech plug welded or threaded? If its threaded, there certainly doesnt look like enough. 1/4" or less.
indian joe
10-04-2018, 08:17 PM
http://www.militaryheritage.com/musket1.htm
Non-Firing State
We sell historically accurate muskets and pistols in a non-firing state. This allows us to comply with various local, state, national and international firearms regulations, along with shipping company policy restrictions. A certified gunsmith may decide to alter a musket or pistol to a firing state by drilling the vent hole and test firing it. We are not legally responsible for any alteration from its present non-firing state. Please read our Conditions of Use and Legal Disclaimer. The customer is expected to be aware of the laws of their locality that govern products of this nature.
indian joe
10-04-2018, 08:24 PM
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/index.shtml
Terms & Conditions
All of our muzzleloading guns are shipped in an active state, ready to load and use unless you request otherwise.
Our muzzleloaders all carry a limited lifetime warranty on the lock. This warranty covers wear and parts breakage including frizzen wear. To be covered under the warranty, the lock must be in unmodified condition and reasonably maintained. Lock repairs are free for the first 12 months after purchase. After 12 months, there is a $10 fee.
Mr_Sheesh
10-05-2018, 04:34 AM
Finger cots, a finger off a rubber glove, or a "rubber" would do to protect your muzzle from filling with gunk, alternatively. Best to remove before firing if you can, for best accuracy. A balloon definitely works.
waksupi
10-05-2018, 10:48 AM
Yes, the India guns are made to a price. Yes, they come from there without touch holes being drilled. I think that makes them a non-firearm to get around shipping hassles. There was a long discussion about the DOM barrels on the Muzzleloading Forum; lots of opinions on how safe (or not) those guns are. Many years ago in the old Black Powder Report magazine put out by John Baird, he and Jerry Cunningham (Sharon Rifle Co?) were having an ongoing debate over the relative safety of repro gun barrels. Cunningham ran tests using THINWALL ELECTRICAL CONDUIT! and it took a LOT of powder before the tubing finally blew, don't remember the amount after all these years. I guess my take is to know your gun, take care in loading and cleaning and observe all safety considerations. I have a friend who has an India-made double barrel flint fowler; he did extensive work reshaping the wood and has not had any problem shooting normal loads.
They also tested a paper towel roll, with duct tape wrapped around it. I wouldn't want to shoot that either!:D
how do we know that the catastrophic failure in the photo was not staged to give INDIA GUNS a bad rep. where did it occur, pictures of people hurt, names of the injured, and hospital and police reports? it is not to far fetched. what will it be next TRADITIONS GUNS made in SPAIN?
it appears people buy these guns because of price, and some actually think they're also getting some measure of quality, and therefore also value. there is no way i'd trust a flintlock muzzleloader of dubious build components, particularly when aiming and firing one puts my life up close and personal between success and life threatening failure. buying third world built firearms is a form of gambling.
indian joe
10-05-2018, 06:46 PM
how do we know that the catastrophic failure in the photo was not staged to give INDIA GUNS a bad rep. where did it occur, pictures of people hurt, names of the injured, and hospital and police reports? it is not to far fetched. what will it be next TRADITIONS GUNS made in SPAIN?
yes -- with the garbage thats going on in your country at the moment this would not be a surprise - whoever put this up in the first place should have supplied all the info you point to --
I shot CVA's all my competive life and put up with constant harrassment from guys with enough spare cash to buy higher class guns - the more I beat them on the line the worse it got till in the end I just shoot CVA's out of shreer cussedness. (still doin ok on the line too)
yes -- with the garbage thats going on in your country at the moment this would not be a surprise - whoever put this up in the first place should have supplied all the info you point to --
I shot CVA's all my competive life and put up with constant harrassment from guys with enough spare cash to buy higher class guns - the more I beat them on the line the worse it got till in the end I just shoot CVA's out of shreer cussedness. (still doin ok on the line too)
joe, your CVA is SO much more trust worthy than any wall hangar india gun. even those jukar guns are less of a gamble than india guns.
FrontierMuzzleloading
10-05-2018, 11:37 PM
they pretty much build these guns in side alleys. Watched one youtube video of the guys roughing out the stock, trigger guard and lock pieces. No way! I'd like a questionable civil war barrel found just yesterday in the dirt over one of these things.
indian joe
10-06-2018, 12:03 AM
joe, your CVA is SO much more trust worthy than any wall hangar india gun. even those jukar guns are less of a gamble than india guns.
yeah I know ! still copped heaps of flack tho
I reckon that "non firing state" disclaimer I posted from the seller site tells a lot
indian joe
10-06-2018, 08:37 AM
wheres the proof??
proof of ..........?
proof, that it all is not cocked up. people places, accident reports, police reports, hospital reports, where and when did it happen?? ain't you curious about some of the questions that aren't mentioned or answered?
indian joe
10-07-2018, 01:46 AM
proof, that it all is not cocked up. people places, accident reports, police reports, hospital reports, where and when did it happen?? ain't you curious about some of the questions that aren't mentioned or answered?
Definitely - I checked a couple out last night - one in Texas 2013 - picture shows the muzzle plugged solid and barrel blown out about 8 inches down - seen more than one 12 gauge just like that after the guy took a fall in the swamp.
another they tested in /england (H P White) expert said had to be a barrel obstruction, steel good for 8o,ooopsi....lots of questions here .
indian joe, thanks for the come back. i fully agree with you! no one seams to wonder what happened beyond a blown up gun, INDIAN or other wise, pistol or musket. why don,t people look at operator failure. i guess it is easier to blame the weapon.
indian joe
10-07-2018, 05:24 PM
indian joe, thanks for the come back. i fully agree with you! no one seams to wonder what happened beyond a blown up gun, INDIAN or other wise, pistol or musket. why don,t people look at operator failure. i guess it is easier to blame the weapon.
yeah ------that said I would be pretty dang wary about something that came shipped with no touch hole and a disclaimer that says its a wall hanger
when I was a small kid "made in japan" was a derogatory term that equated to junk quality - then it was Taiwan , then China, then India, then bangladesh, some place in africa is probably next (seeing that the chinese are buying up resources and starting to move stuff to africa)
Metal quality seems to be the problem along with lack of control of the process .
john.k
10-07-2018, 05:52 PM
The Japanese cleaned up their act by imposing government controll on exports....nothing could be exported without an approval stamp...........cut out the junk overnight...........Taiwan ,having Japanese investment in a lot of the export industries,did the same.....China is doing the same...........India ,however is a land of religion, caste ,corruption ,bribery,and rule bending.And fiercely independent people,who refuse to play by the rules.............if you go there ,you will find out truck drivers decide which side of the road they prefer,and drive on it.
indian joe, thanks for the come back. i fully agree with you! no one seams to wonder what happened beyond a blown up gun, INDIAN or other wise, pistol or musket. why don,t people look at operator failure. i guess it is easier to blame the weapon.
in this case, where firearms made in third-world-at-best india are concerned, absolutely. it's the firearm en toto - components and build process. in a country where they turned back time? no thank you. where head and hands are but a few inches away from a violent explosion, i'd rather take my chances with flintlocks made elsewhere, in more controlled environments, with better component and build quality. as always, YMMV.
228440
if a weapon comes with an affidavit saying that it is a wall hanger- then it is just that!
if a weapon comes with an affidavit saying that it is a wall hanger- then it is just that!
that was their sneaky attempt to obfuscate the cross border gun regulations. they have always touted them as "worthy" once a touch hole was drilled. since none have been proofed, how would anyone know their validity? surviving today's CIP proofing a few times and i might think differently. at least the spanish and italian guns are proofed, and you'll see the proof mark stampings. that's a huge step forward in safety over a middle east gun. in the short run, if you mandate safety of yer life and limb above all, get a gun with a proofed barrel at the least.
via davide pedersoli ...
"Each and every blackpowder firearm must pass a pressure proof test in the official CIP proof house of Gardone to receive the modern blackpowder proof marks. The official modern proof loads for .58 caliber rifles are quite close in weight to the 19th century proof loads being 15 g (231.5 grain) of blackpowder and 39 g (601 grain) in bullet weight. But the powder used today is much hotter than the 19th century U.S. Government musket powder (the modern proofing powder is the Swiss No. 2. 3Fg powder which is finer and stronger) and the barrels are not proofed in proofing machines but in the fully assembled (but white finish stage) rifles. After firing the barrel, the breech and the stock are inspected for any kind of cracks and damages. Only the spotless rifles will receive the final proof marks and only these rifles qualify for shipping to the customers all over the World."
https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/rivista-dettaglio.asp/l_fr/idne_88/proofing-the-us-rifle-muskets-in-the-1860s-and-today.html
This is the same thing that John Baird and the AMM tried to get across many years ago...tanstaafl. You buy junk you get what you pay for.
If the maker won't even drill a touchhole it wasn't meant to shoot period! Take one of these beauties apart some time and look at the sloppy breeching and poor fitting and crooked barrels. And folks get real mad when I refuse to work on dreck like this!
waksupi
10-08-2018, 10:50 AM
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/index.shtml
It was one of these I first inspected, and sent back to them the same day as unsafe to shoot.
The old saying you get what you paid for applies
I just received my ENGLISH 1500's INDIAN made FISH TAIL MATCHLOCK 75 CAL. MUSKET from MIDDLESEX T. Co. waited 7 months for it. am very pleased with it . am going to shoot it and am not worried about it. I wanted one and there is no other pieces to be had, except for ones made in GERMANY, or ENGLAND I am told with a year wait,+ and thousands of $.or original ones. yes I made the decision and am more than happy with it. so have at it with me. but don't waist the ink be cause it doesn't matter, I am a happy camper! just thought i would share my new XMAS present with you guys.
waksupi
10-16-2018, 11:16 AM
I just received my ENGLISH 1500's INDIAN made FISH TAIL MATCHLOCK 75 CAL. MUSKET from MIDDLESEX T. Co. waited 7 months for it. am very pleased with it . am going to shoot it and am not worried about it. I wanted one and there is no other pieces to be had, except for ones made in GERMANY, or ENGLAND I am told with a year wait,+ and thousands of $.or original ones. yes I made the decision and am more than happy with it. so have at it with me. but don't waist the ink be cause it doesn't matter, I am a happy camper! just thought i would share my new XMAS present with you guys.
I would recommend putting a ramrod down the bore, and comparing on the outside to see how much breech plug you have. The breech plug should have as much length as the bore diameter.
I just received my ENGLISH 1500's INDIAN made FISH TAIL MATCHLOCK 75 CAL. MUSKET from MIDDLESEX T. Co. waited 7 months for it. am very pleased with it . am going to shoot it and am not worried about it. I wanted one and there is no other pieces to be had, except for ones made in GERMANY, or ENGLAND I am told with a year wait,+ and thousands of $.or original ones. yes I made the decision and am more than happy with it. so have at it with me. but don't waist the ink be cause it doesn't matter, I am a happy camper! just thought i would share my new XMAS present with you guys.
best of luck, be safe.
waksupi and rfd, that is the first thing i did after you suggested it, never heard of that lit'l trick, i like it and will pass it on to my friends.and it passed muster it is .749, DIA. and rfd, thank you for the kind words. i have made it for 74+ yrs. and want many more. as i said this site has the best bunch of guys that any could have. PS, as of this post i have shot it with a .735 DIA. RB. and 10 thousandths pillow tick patch,and 75 GRS. of 2FG SCHUTZEN BP. it went off with out a hitch.
KenT7021
10-16-2018, 03:29 PM
There is a H.P.White Lab. report about the firearm in the original post.It's worth searching for and reading.The musket had apparently never been cleaned and had bore restrictions because of that.
Geezer in NH
10-16-2018, 04:30 PM
An engineer will say anything over 5 full threads is a waste.
indian joe
10-16-2018, 05:18 PM
An engineer will say anything over 5 full threads is a waste.
He would probably qualify that with some words about the threads being cleanly cut and within specifications
well i shot it today. i loaded it with 75 GRS. of SCHUTZEN 2FG. and a 10 thousands pillow tick patch and shot a 5 shot clover leaf at 25 yards. no 4 leaf clover. this is the 2sd. time i have shot it and am very pleased with it. it was the best early XMAS present on could get. now to the task of cleaning it!.
Geezer in NH
10-17-2018, 04:02 PM
He would probably qualify that with some words about the threads being cleanly cut and within specifications
An engineer expects them to be correct and not screwed up.
i when i spoke with jim chambers to order out his white lightnin touch hole liners, and explained the mess that jackie brown made of my smoothbores liner hole, he said three solid threads is all that's needed ... at least for a touch liner.
indian joe
10-17-2018, 06:17 PM
i when i spoke with jim chambers to order out his white lightnin touch hole liners, and explained the mess that jackie brown made of my smoothbores liner hole, he said three solid threads is all that's needed ... at least for a touch liner.
Theres a piece of a cut off bolt sitting on my desk by the computer - (proly a message to clean the junk out of my pockets before putting stuff in the wash:bigsmyl2:) end off a 3/8th whitworth by the looks of it (coarse metric threads are little different) - count five threads - its the full depth of a nut, and a whisker longer than the diameter - pull the nut up tight enough and (most times) the bolt will break clean rather than pull or strip the threads.
Dont like agreeing with experts but I think I back the engineer!
59sharps
10-18-2018, 12:52 PM
So explain to my whey reinactores shell out all kinds of money for equipment and uniforms. but the thing that can dismember you they buy a cheap peace of Junk?
indian joe
10-18-2018, 05:12 PM
So explain to my whey reinactores shell out all kinds of money for equipment and uniforms. but the thing that can dismember you they buy a cheap peace of Junk?
Good question !!!!
Really good question !!!!!!
Chance
10-18-2018, 07:26 PM
Indian made long guns are sold in the UK as both inert wall hangers and as firearms. All firearms bear proof marks. It is illegal to sell a firearm here that is not proof marked.
Chance
Chance
10-18-2018, 07:48 PM
[QUOTE=rfd;4473616]
"Each and every blackpowder firearm must pass a pressure proof test in the official CIP proof house of Gardone to receive the modern blackpowder proof marks. QUOTE]
There is only one proof house in Italy and that is in Gardone. It carries out other work such as testing stab vests. Consider that in that area of Italy you have Uberti, Pietta, Chiappa, Pedersoli, Beretta and a myriad of small gunmakers, all needing firearms and shotguns proofed. Think of how long it takes to load a muzzle loading revolver; then it is placed into a safety chamber and fired six times at 30% more than the recommended maximum charge; then taken out and checked for damage. The attached photograph shows part of the Uberti despatch area. The sheer number of guns produced in these factories renders it physically impossible to test fire and check every one.
229077
Chance
indian joe
10-19-2018, 01:19 AM
[QUOTE=rfd;4473616]
"Each and every blackpowder firearm must pass a pressure proof test in the official CIP proof house of Gardone to receive the modern blackpowder proof marks. QUOTE]
There is only one proof house in Italy and that is in Gardone. It carries out other work such as testing stab vests. Consider that in that area of Italy you have Uberti, Pietta, Chiappa, Pedersoli, Beretta and a myriad of small gunmakers, all needing firearms and shotguns proofed. Think of how long it takes to load a muzzle loading revolver; then it is placed into a safety chamber and fired six times at 30% more than the recommended maximum charge; then taken out and checked for damage. The attached photograph shows part of the Uberti despatch area. The sheer number of guns produced in these factories renders it physically impossible to test fire and check every one.
229077
Chance
are you sayin...........?
So that is at least two of us that dont entirely believe the proof house story .............
every gun test fired ? ..........Nah!
"Each and every blackpowder firearm must pass a pressure proof test in the official CIP proof house of Gardone to receive the modern blackpowder proof marks.
... The sheer number of guns produced in these factories renders it physically impossible to test fire and check every one.
Chance
do you have empirical data that the Gardone proof house has stamped proof marks on barrels that have not been tested?
if so, that would lead to a really huge scandal of epic proportions, and lots of fines and jail time.
Chance
10-19-2018, 07:35 AM
I don't have any proof but just do the maths. I saw a shotgun go through proof. The gun was broken down, pressure bearing parts measured, re-assembled and tested then broken down again and re-measured. How many Italian shotgun manufacturers can you name? All sending guns to Gardone.
Chance
without proof (pun intended) you have nothing but theory.
get the proof that there are guns leaving gardone with proof marked barrels that haven't actually been proofed, to back up yer statement.
arcticap
10-19-2018, 12:32 PM
My theory is that the proof houses have inspectors who do the proof testing on site at the facilities of the major manufacturers.
That way the proof testing gets expedited in a timely fashion as the guns are being produced.
The inspectors would be working in their official capacity to save time & money, with the companies even providing them with the proper equipment to do their job as required.
FrontierMuzzleloading
10-20-2018, 09:09 PM
Watching the Colonial gunsmith of williamsburg last night, the smith stated the breech plug should have at least 6 full threads which will end up being around 1/2" long.
breeches and vent liners are two diff'rent things entirely. the breech plug can be as long as one wants - 1/2", 5/8", 3/4" - because it's that plug that seals the pipe's butt hole and will have an attached tang. vent liners are totally at the mercy of the barrel's chamber wall thickness, and that's where things can get dicey, and where you really need to know what yer doing in terms of liner threads, countersink, and just what size the pilot hole needs to be and where to drill it. it only takes 3 solid threads for a touch hole liner, however most will be 4 or 5.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.