When are 45LC loads too hot...?

[dlbarr]

I know...depends on the gun..

Just took ownership of an old model Ruger Vaquero (SN 55-xxxxx) and curious to know where you think the line is between that gun and the Blackhawk? I don't expect, although I don't know by any means, that the old Vaquero can be loaded heavy enough to dispatch heavy/dangerous game. Would be interested to hear what viewpoints there are on this and what max loads are within reason for this revolver.

That said, I most often load on the lighter side with most of my stuff. But I'm just curious....

[fishnbob]

I think what you can comfortably shoot and enjoy is a fur piece from a max load in the Vaquero and bullet weights play a factor as well. Start with a "suggested starting load" and ease up from there. Your hand will tell you where to stop.
Good shooting, enjoy!

[Don Purcell]

Heavy, dangerous game would be no problem.

[Harry O]

The OLD model Vaquero has the same frame and cylinder diameter as their .44 Magnum Blackhawk. There have been a number of articles on loading the .45 Colt to match the .44 Magnum (with a little heavier bullet and a little bit less pressure). If that is what you want to do, check them out.

I have an old model Vaquero in 44-40 (yea, it had all the bad tolerances/dimensions you have heard about). I finally got it to shoot pretty well with 200gr jacketed soft-nose bullets with 18.5gr of 2400. That is stiff, but not at the limit of the gun. It is pretty close to the limit of the brass, however.

[DougGuy]

Your TWO DIGIT prefix Vaquero is good to 30,000psi all day all week all year... Same as a 45 caliber BH or SBH. 44 mag max pressures are 36,000psi, the 44 has thicker cylinder walls and webs (because the chamber and throats are smaller) than the 45 has, and the 45 caliber should be held to 30,000psi for this reason.

[osteodoc08]

https://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

Two excellent articles about the 45 colt.

You have a “Two digit” vaquero meaning it is built on the larger Blackhawk frame and can take “Ruger only” 45 colt Loads

***WARNING*** “Three Digit” new model vaqueros made after 2004 (IIRC) are built on the smaller 357 Mag frames and SHOULD NOT USE RUGER ONLY LOAD DATA!!!

[smkummer]

The plow handle grip frame will tell you were to stop. A 250 gr. bullet at 9-950 FPS, which can be obtained with standard colt pressure can do a lot. You might even down load that a bit for plinking. I used to have some Ruger loads for my 45 anaconda, but if something would ever happen to me, those might find there way into my colt single actions. So now I will only load those and shoot them up the same day, which as been a long time ago.

[contender1]

All the info above is correct. You can load your original Vaquero to the same safe loads as a Blackhawk. The New Vaquero is built on a smaller frame,, and isn't quite as stout as an original, 2-digit version.

[Potsy]

I load some stuff hotter for my Bisley, but a 270SAA over 9.0 grains of Unique or Universal would likely lengthwise any critter I'm apt to come across and shoot at with a pistol. It should only churn around 20kpsi (according to Brian Pearce) making it safe in either frame.

[lar45]

If your brass sticks then you are way too hot and should back off a couple of grains.
+1 to what everybody else said, 28-30kpsi is about where you should stop. Hodgdon has load data for the Ruger Level 45Colt. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
2400 is a great powder for medium to high end loads. 4227 has about the same burn rate as H110 but is bulkier and is another great powder for max loads.
The 45Colt is one of my absolute favorite cartridges. I've had a stainless 4 5/8" Blackhawk since 93ish and have vary rarely shot my 44 mag since I got the 45. A close second is a 5.5" Bisley. I love the Houge MonoGrip on the Blackhawk.
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/guns/45colts.jpg

[Don Purcell]

Elmer Keith mentioned a guy that was given a 7 1/2 Colt Single Action .45 by this fellows father when he left home as a very young man. He carried the Colt all his long life and I believe he was even buried with it, but he took a lot of game with it from deer, elk, moose and bison. If a "weak" Colt can do that then a Ruger would not even be straining with the same loads or even slightly warmer.

[bob208]

I read where the cowboys with T.R. on his hunting trip killed a griz. with their colts with b-p loads.
I say if you want a magnum buy a magnum don't try to make one out of a gun that is not.

[dlbarr]

I actually spoke with John Linebaugh today and he substantiated everything you all are saying. No concerns about whether the Vaquero will stand up to hot loads at all. A very interesting conversation...he said that the 45LC, loaded correctly, would make a 44 mag "cry". Lots of fascinating stuff he told me. I am a novice at much of this, if you can't already tell.

[Bigslug]

My own penetration tests with cast have been an eye opener, and would lead me to rephrase the OP's question as "When aren't .45LC loads hot enough?"

The original black powder loadings were conceived with the intention of not only stopping men, but horses, and no less an authority than Elmer Keith wrote that if he couldn't handload, he'd carry a .45 Colt. My own hard alloy tinkering with LBT 230 grain LFN's at .45 Auto hardball velocities brought me to the conclusion that there is ample penetration there to double lung an elk at short range. So while you CAN load certain Blackhawks hotter than G.A. Custer's 255 grains at 900-1000 fps, I am not 100% convinced of the NEED. Yes, there's the desire to take the performance farther downrange, but that begins to bring us into the zones of (A.)"this is what rifles are for", and (B.) "this thing just quit being fun to shoot".

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Brian Pearce wrote an interesting article about hot loading the Keith boolit. The article starts out with him shooting an elk. The Keith boolit looses velocity down range at such a rate that a higher muzzle velocity isn’t hitting that much faster than a boolit with a downloaded muzzle velocity down range. In the article his Keith boolit passed through both lungs of the elk and exited. He reasons that a higher velocity wouldn’t have penetrated any more.

[nicholst55]

I worked up to one of the loads that John Linebaugh lists on his website with a nominal 260 grain bullet and a case full of H110 in my 4-5/8" plow handle Blackhawk. I stopped slightly below what he lists as maximum. Wow! While I have no doubt that the load specified would kill anything on the North American continent DRT, it had ceased being fun. It was everything John said it was - accurate and powerful, and the brass ejected very easily; it's just more than I anticipate ever needing.

I now know that the gun will handle it. I also know that I would most definitely not enjoy a steady habit of shooting anything that powerful.

[dubber123]

Linebaugh pressure tests everything, and knows exactly just how much is "too much", at least as far as safety. Your comfort level or need is another matter. 320's at 1,300 are really quite easy to assemble for the 45 Colt, and will run a lot less pressure doing so than a similar 44 Mag load, its just a bigger cartridge, no way around it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I had one vaquero that had a steady diet of a 320s with 25 grains of 110 for years. Probably thousands of them. It did get a bit loose after a couple years of it but I sure didn't worry about it blowing up. I did learn though that its about silly to load them like that or even full snort 44 mag heavy bullets loads. I shot lots of deer sized and bigger game with both with heavies going from a 1000 fps to 1300fps and never noticed the faster ones killed one bit better then the 1000 fps loads. I shot one 1000 lb buffalo with a 44 mag using a 300 rcbs swc gc at a 1000 fps. it went in the front shoulder at an angle broke it and came out the opposite hind quarter. That's about like shooting through 3 or 4 whitetail standing side by side. In typical buffalo fashion it took three or four steps after about no reaction to the shot and fell over dead. Ask John one time on how buffalo act when hit by 475s and 500s. Ive seen them hit and keep eating until they fell over dead. to be totally honest ive hunted deer bear pigs and buffalo with 44s 45s 475s and 500s and saw very little difference in the killing power of any of them. they all kill well with a well placed shot. Same with velocity. Unless your counting on a jacketed bullet to expand getting that last fps means about nothing in handgun hunting. penetration is where its at. Many times ive seen in pentration testing that a heavy cast bullet at a 1000 fps outpenetrates the same bullet at 1400.

[Don Purcell]

Agreed!

[gnostic]

In my experience, it's the brass that's the weak link with the 45LC. I don't load anywhere near the max, as I'm normally shooting at steel plates 20-30 yards away. I've had cases that were loaded 6 or 7 times, fall from the cylinder in 3 pieces. I'm not overworking my brass in the loading process, I've measured the cases before and after loading. I own a dozen S&W revolvers and the 45LC is the only one that goes through cases so quickly.

[Drm50]

I don't load 45Colt hot. I SAs I load 250g FN cast/ 9.0g Unique. I killed several deer with this load out of Ruger BH. I have model 25s S&Ws that I only shoot cast 237gr WC/ 12.0g Win 630 at 750fps
W-630 is obsolete but I have come into 16lbs to shoot up. I also killed a deer with this WC load. I
admit it wasn't a Elmer 600 yarder, more like 30yds. I got Ruger SBH 44mg and is only handgun I
own that is shot hot. That is because of accuracy not for the sake of hot rodding.

[lar45]

In my experience, it's the brass that's the weak link with the 45LC.
I own a dozen S&W revolvers and the 45LC is the only one that goes through cases so quickly.

The 45 Colt brass is made from the same stuff that they make all of the other cases from. You can take 45 Colt brass, load it to 60kpsi and shoot it in a 454 and the brass is fine.
Your S&W 45 probably has overly large chambers, so that's probably why the brass fails.

[charlie b]

I agree that the Rugers can be loaded hot and take it easily. I could not. ;) My BH was very accurate with hot loaded 255 and 300 cast bullets. I had that thing about a year and fired probably 1000 rounds through it. The last session my elbow hurt (my wrist would always hurt after a session). I was only 40 and felt that continued abuse of my arm would not be good. So, I traded off the pistol.

If I ever decided I needed a pistol for bear country it would be a DA in .460 or .454

[Silver Jack Hammer]

My brass splits in the SAA if I full length resize. When I neck resize the brass fired in my Colt’s .45 lasts forever. I own 5 Colt’s SAA in .45 Colt and 1 Ruger BH in .45 Colt. My Colt’s are 3rd gen’s. The Colt’s company still cuts their cylinders to the Army’s specs to be used with Black powder on the frontier for the cavalry. My neck resized cartridges will not chamber in the Ruger. The splits in the cases were longitudinal along the length in the middle of the case.

[gnostic]

The 45 Colt brass is made from the same stuff that they make all of the other cases from. You can take 45 Colt brass, load it to 60kpsi and shoot it in a 454 and the brass is fine.
Your S&W 45 probably has overly large chambers, so that's probably why the brass fails.

You're probably right about the chambers being oversized. I have a plastic cartridge box of 100 fired cases that I'll measure. The fired case do look somewhat large. I assumed they just looked that way because of the rim on the 45LC case being smaller than on other calibers.

Silver Jack Hammer: I'm going to try partially resizing the cases as you suggest. As long as they chamber and grip the bullet, what could that hurt? My cases split both vertically and horizontally. Some have come out in three pieces...

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just neck size down to the base of the boolit. My pressures are 3rd gen Colt’s levels. 8 to 8.5 gr. of Unique under my cast 454190 wheel weight alloy sized to .454”

[DocSavage]

With the exception of my 454 SRH my 45 Colt cases come out of my various Ruger SA looking like a Pilsner beer glass with heavy loads

[Potsy]

I tried partial sizing .45 Colts. No joy.

I load for a Bisley on the full sized BH frame and usually run anywhere from 9.0grains of Universal to 25.0 grains of 296 (recoil is brisk!).

With warmer loads, SOME cases wouldn't fit back in the chamber.

I've got some Starline Brass (about 300 pieces that ranges from a few years to 18 years old) that has survived being sized in a Lee Carbide die several times very well. Only couple split necks. I also have a hundred pieces of CBC brass that I run my 9.0grn H-Universal load in exclusively. That batch has been loaded at least 5 times and I've not lost a case yet.

My biggest issue with oversized chambers is that I well know that a case that fits the chamber will give better accuracy in a rifle, and when I hear my cartridges rattling around in my revolver like jingle bells, I can't help but think that's not doing me any favors. Maybe it's all in my head.

Redding makes a .45 Colt sizing die with two carbide rings. One at the top that sizes the case down enough to grip a .452 bullet, and one at the bottom that's wider and doesn't size the case down as much as say, my Lee Carbide die with one ring. Whenever I'm sitting on an extra C-note, I've been meaning to pick one up.

In any normal frame 6-shot revolver, the .45 Colt is an absolute monster of a cartridge. Even at 15,000CUP in an old Colt or Clone, it's still more powerful than a pretty warm .45 ACP. At 20,000, the only cartridge that can get in the room with it is a .44 Magnum. At 32,000, it's in a league of it's own (if you care to shoot it). As a bonus, .45 holes in a cylinder and barrel make for a lighter gun than .44 holes. Ain't no replacement for displacement.

It's only downfall is that in 145 years, chamber/barrel/bullet/case dimensions have run all over the place, but that seems to be getting better with newer guns. And if you don't think other cartridges have suffered the same issues, you've not wandered around this site very much.........

[Messy bear]

Silver Jack number 24 is right on. Guys this isnt rocket science. If you work the brass it's hard on it. Use the 4 th die in the Lee die set. It's the much hated and miss named factory crimp die. Use the above advice and neck size and follow with 4 th die to bump the body so they chamber. Been workin for years on various chambers from lever guns to Colt ssa to the usually tighter rugers.

[RED BEAR]

i don't understand if a 45 lc loaded to normal pressures isnt enough then buy a bigger gun. i have ended up with quite a few guns over the years using this reasoning. if there ain't enough room in the safe then thats a good reason for another safe. i imagine a 460 , 480 or 500 mag would look nice in the safe.

[Walks]

I've been loading .45COLT for my own Revolvers since 1975. A RUGER NM BLACKHAWK 4 5/8" was the 2nd New Handgun I ever bought myself.
I've loaded it as hot as anybody can. Put a Super BlackHawk grip frame on it, as I do all my BlackHawks. Gives that extra length my big mitts require.

Bought 3 boxes of REMINGTON 45COLT Brass to go with it. First new 45COLT Brass I ever had to Load. A new LYMAN #452424 2cav was purchased to go along with it. Started casting right off, so I'd have ammo ready to go. Just as soon as I could pick up my new REVOLVER at the end of the waiting period.

Didn't think about it ahead of time. I expanded the case mouths and chamfered & deburred them. Cases were just about minimum, so they didn't need trimming. Then I primed the new brass cases and charged them with 9.0 grs of UNIQUE. Then came the fun part. I started a fresh cast and lubed .452 sized 250gr SWC into the case.

It fell straight down on to the powder. I forgot to size the cases first. Later found out back then REMINGTON Brass was made to take the factory .456 diameter RNFP Hollow Base bullet.

I'd loaded new .357MAG cases without sizing first.

Then I started experimenting with hotter & hotter loads.
Never changed bullets or sizing. The bore was .451, chamber mouths ran .451-453, accuracy was always good, until I hit 18grs of 2400. Then it went down the tubes, leading too. Guess the 50/50 mix of WW & #2 had reached it's limit.
And so had my hands. Muzzle whip had gotten to be a bit too much.

Moved on to the .44MAG. Left the hot .45COLT Loads behind. Went back to 9grs of UNIQUE under the .452424. It was too Long an OAL for an Italian SAA replica. So I got an ancient #454190 4cav & loaded 7.5grs of UNIQUE. A great plinking load, for the Italian gun and my COLT .45 Revolvers too.

But I missed the hot .45COLT load. But rather then buy a RUGER with a 7 1/2" bbl.
I bought a CASULL in .454, with a 7 1/2" bbl. Now I could load the 45caliber as hot as I wanted.

Then a pair of RUGER VAQUERO'S, SN prefix #55 .
Tried the old hot loads in them, they shot well. Almost to same POI as my COWBOY LOADS.

But I'd sold off the CASULL by then. To finance more Cowboy guns.

I never worried a bit about hot loads in those early VAQUERO'S. They handled the few hundred hot loads I tried without a problem.
But I did touch off a few in a New VAQUERO just after I bought it in 2005.
BOY HOWDY!!!! That was an experience! Just like shooting my old CASULL with the Beautiful ROSE WOOD Grips. Hard on the whole hand. PACHMAYR'S Tamed the CASULL.
But they're not for a Cowboy Action Revolver. The New cheap skinny grips that RUGER now puts on many of it's SA revolvers are absolute JUNK. They may be ok for a child or small female's hands.
I made a New Pair of Walnut panels of the same thickness as the Ruger Walnut panels on my Ruger .32 H&R Single Six.
Made the revolver much more comfortable to shoot with any load.
And the .45COLT Loads with the #452424 just barely fit into the shorter cylinder of the New VAQUERO.

I feel the New VAQUERO'S should only be used with nothing hotter then top end loads for the COLT SAA.

[kingrj]

Have owned and reloaded for .45 colt cartridge for over 30 years...All my .45 colt guns have been Rugers with the large frame so I have NO experience with Colet 1873's or Smith's in that caliber but it is very difficult to determine pressure levels of various loads without dedicated pressure measurement equipment. However an inexpensive chronograph and careful powder selection can get you close. As long as you don't use any powder faster than Unique you can feel good about 255 grain bullets at 900-950 fps. Always use a good reloading manual to start with and work up slowly to those velocities and you should be in normal .45 colt pressures. If I want a more powerful load then I go directly to H-110 or WW296 with the 255 grain bullets and heavier...I do not try to push that bullet faster than about 1250 or a 300 grain faster than about 1100 using those slow powders and these loads are accurate, the cases fall out of the cylinders and recoil is not bad. The chronograph is a good tool to use...if you want really hot loads then do NOT use fast powders and load until the chronograph tells you that your are in the velocity range of the hotter load data out there like the Buffalo Bore loadings...

[DougGuy]

I had one vaquero that had a steady diet of a 320s with 25 grains of 110 for years. Probably thousands of them. It did get a bit loose after a couple years of it but I sure didn't worry about it blowing up.

I reckon you know you were likely a bit north of 30kpsi right?