45 Colt v.s. 45-70

[NHlever]

We sometimes tend to equate powerful with better, and more recoil with more powerful, but I have a question. A 250 grain Keith style boolit for the Colt round has a wider meplat than the 300-400 grain RCBS bullet series. As long as one gets pass through at the angle of the shot it would seem that the Colt round might do a better job. What about "time on (or in this case in) target" I know it makes a difference in silly wet shooting but how about on game? I would think that bullet weight and velocity when comparing cast boolit loads would only come into play when more penetration is needed. Comments?

[35remington]

I would opine that the 45 Colt would do a fine job, but with always a disadvantage in energy compared to what the 45-70 could muster. The 45-70 will always have the edge in effect for that reason.

Large meplat 45-70 bullets are also available, which tips the balance overwhelmingly in the 45-70's favor.

Whether the game shot will know the difference is another matter. Depends upon what you're shooting, I suppose.

[NHlever]

I have both, and certainly understand the advantage in energy, but I guess the question is if that energy doesn't do tissue damage, or is expended past the critter then that isn't part of the killing effect. I have no doubt which I would rather face down a big bear, or BIG wild pig with, or use on Elk for that matter, but for deer, and the average bear, or pig I'm not sure the extra bullet weight or power does much good. Now, to come clean, all the pigs I have seen shot, or have shot myself have been with the 30-06 (others) or .308 (me, and the biggest I have shot was a little over 300 lbs.), and I have never seen a bear shot except on video. I guess that is part of why I'm asking. I've hunted deer with both the 45-70, and 45 Colt in a rifle, but have never happend to have either one with me when I have shot deer.

[ktw]

I have the 45 Colt in a Winchester 94 Carbine. It handles the light 45/70 bullets well up to around 340 grains. It does it in a much handier rifle and solves a lot of excess case capacity problems. I don't understand why anyone would need more power for deer sized game.

I don't have a 45/70. I do plan to get one someday. I think the major strengths here lie in hunting with blackpowder loads and/or heaving bullets in the range of 400 grains or more.

-ktw

[Heavy lead]

I've had 45-70's, there great, however I currently have none, but have a 45 Colt in a 94 with a 20 inch barrel. I feed it a 360 grain long flat nose gas checked super hard boolit with if I remember correctly 19 grains of 296. It hits hard. It feeds fine, I don't think this would feed in a Marlin or a 92, as the 94 is a longer action. Quite frankley it's all the power I want in a light carbine. I had a 18.5 inch Marlin in 45-70 once and it hurt too much to shoot, I sold it. Even with all that energy the Colt just doesn't kick as much and I'll bet it would kill a black timber elk or moose just fine.

[btroj]

I have both in a Marlin. Got 2 pigs and 2 deer with the 45 Colt before I got the 45-70. Wanted the 45-70 as much as anything just to have one but alos look at this- the 45 Colt is loaded heavy to reach where a 45-70 is with a relatively mild load. I just decided I didn't want the wear and tear on my 1894 in 45 colt from shooting that many heavy loads. I have no doubt it would have killed a deer just as well with moderate loads but I'me of the school that there is no such thing as too dead.

[Buckshot]

..............There are Rossi M92 clones made in 454 Casull, and I've seen the Casull do some almost 45-70 stuff from a peestol, let alone a 20 or 24" bbl. Admittedly the Casull was shooting a 300gr slug, which is noteworthy at it's velocity, and the size of it's case. Yet in a modern 45-70 it would be an above average load, but nothing startling.

You have the tradeoff actually in the BC of the lighter (for a 45-70) boolit and the range you could use it at. The range may not be a big deal unless you do your pig shooting in a pasture :-) But in a handy lever repeater, a 300 gr slug traveling at 1800 fps at pig ranges would be pleanty of medicine. Plus the rifle and it's cartridges are a much handier package.

A pig is a tough tenacious fighter if cornered or wounded, but if hit in the right spot isn't unduly hard to kill. I shot a boar with a 45-70 using a 405gr PP'd slug at 1600 fps MV. At about 60 yards the slug sailed right on through, and so was the pig. Through, that is :-) In a souped up 45 Colt or Casull with a 300-325gr slug I'd like a harder boolit with a smallish FN and at least SOME kind of sharp corner. I'd like for it to be able to go in, through and on out, even if it hit a bone on the way.

.................Buckshot

[Pitmaster]

Is it my understanding from this thread that I can load .45 Colt and shoot them in my 1895 Marlin 45-70? If so can someone suggest some loads. I am looking for a light load to plink with and have a .45 Colt mold.

[725]

It's a disscusion about the relative merits. Not interchangeability.

[wiljen]

45 colt wont work in the 45-70. The best plinkers for the 45-70 are either the 300gr bullets or beagle one of the .456 old army molds lee used to make and make a 220gr or so .459 to fit.

[NHlever]

I've only used 300-405 grain boolits in my 45-70, and really like the 300 grain load at 1800 fps or so. Shots are close around here. If I drew a moose permit, I might go heavier. In the 45 Colt revlover I have shot both 250, and 300 grain loads too, some on the warm side. I'll probably settle on the 250 grain at 1000-1100 fps for an all around carry load though I may end up using the 270 SAA for both rifle, and handgun. A friend shot a nice whitetail with the Hornady 300 Hp out of his 45-70 at hot velocities, and it did way too much damage. He now uses the 350 J word bullets for everything, loaded hot.

The input has been great, keep it coming. I think both guns have their merits. It is true that a 45 Colt is running full throttle to equal a 45-70 with light bullets that is loafing along.

[Lloyd Smale]

if your shots are at 25 yards and the game is deer or pigs or black bear i doubt if any animal will react any differntly being hit in the same place with either. If the game gets bigger the 4570 shooting a heavier bullet with better sectional density will perform bettter. If you bump your loads up to 300 grain in the 45 and use ruger level loads a 45 colt rifle is everyting a 4570 is shooting factory level ammo. But then who shoots factory level 4570 ammo. Then you havent factored in the fact that yes the rcbs bullet has a smaller metplat but larger metplat bullets are readily available. Personaly though id have to say that the rcbs 405 kills very well as is.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Are wild pigs that much tougher than domestic hogs? I've raised many for meat, and the way I butcher them, is to shoot them in the head, right between, and an inch or two above the eyes with a .22 rifle. This just knocks them out, allowing me to roll them over and stick them, bleeding them out. Never shot a wild hog, but did get a few deer with my .45LC '92. 11gr. Unique behind a 250gr. boolet. Good penetration, even on quartering shots.
Morgan

[KirkD]

Is it my understanding from this thread that I can load .45 Colt and shoot them in my 1895 Marlin 45-70?

You can't shoot 45 Colt bullets in a 45-70, or 45-70 bullets in a 45 Colt. The problem is that the 45 Colt has bullet diameters of .452-.454 and the 45-70 has bullet diameters of around .458. The 45 Colt bullets will give poor accuracy in the larger 45-70 bores. I've owned both 45-70's and a 45 Colt rifle. Both are excellent calibers. Properly loaded with heavier bullets, the 45 Colt will be good for any North American game except for Grizzleys and Polar Bears. For those two, I'd prefer the 45-70.

[725]

Pitmater,
For plinking, try a .457 round ball over 9 grs of Unique. Lube the ball or not ( I have done both successfully) and after priming and charging, push the ball in a distance that allows half the sphere (round ball) to show outside the case. If you like to plink, this .45-70 plinker is a gas.

[missionary5155]

Application ! Why did the US Army carry 45-70 so long out west... Yes I know about the economics... But when your well mounted enemy is riding BEHIND the neck of a pony at 100-350 yards banging away with a lever action repeater you need DEEP penetration... A 45 colt launched 300 grain boolit will NOT reliably penetrate a horses neck and inflict a mortal wound on the shooter. So here we are today... what is the application... Sure I can drop any critter on earth with a .22 - 50 grain bullet ..as long as that critter is caged, locked into a kiiling crib. I popped 400 pound hogs through the ear.. real easy. But one of them same hogs tried to run me over and eat me alive while we tried to get into the "Crib".... and no way was I gonna try to "Stop" it with that 50 grain .22 bullet. I wanted a 12 guage slug only because there was not an 8 guage laying about. So hey... as long as as things are going PERFECT... any light weight boolit and caliber is fine. Just do not get in the way of that charging hog...

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought a .22lr was sufficient for hunting wild hogs. I was only remarking that shooting domestic hogs in the forehead, only knocked them out. Pretty impressive, I'd say. Tough skull, to say the least.

As regards a .45LC vs. a .45-70, giving sufficient penetration to go through a horses neck and kill an Indian behind it, bear in mind that those were black powder days, and a .45LC case, has the capacity with smokeless powder, to far exceed original BP .45-70 ballistics, given the right rifle.
Morgan

[Lloyd Smale]

and bullets were cast from pretty much pure lead. they didnt know what hard cast even was then. I know i wouldnt want to sit on a horse and have someone shooting at me with a 45 colt with a 250 at a 1000 fps!! Ive seen to many times where they busted through boths shoulders of a large hog or black bear.
I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought a .22lr was sufficient for hunting wild hogs. I was only remarking that shooting domestic hogs in the forehead, only knocked them out. Pretty impressive, I'd say. Tough skull, to say the least.

As regards a .45LC vs. a .45-70, giving sufficient penetration to go through a horses neck and kill an Indian behind it, bear in mind that those were black powder days, and a .45LC case, has the capacity with smokeless powder, to far exceed original BP .45-70 ballistics, given the right rifle.
Morgan

[Slogg76]

I was recently debating the very same thing and decided I will probably get another 45 Colt chambered rifle simply because of logistics and lower recoil. I have killed several deer with 45-70 marlins and several more with a Winchester 94 and Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt. Although the 45-70 did more damage than the 45 Colt, the results were the same regardless of which cartridge was used-instantly dead deer. Even when using the 7 1/2" barreled Ruger revolver I could not get a heavy 45 Colt slug to stay in a deer. With the heavy loads a modern Marlin, Winchester, or model 92 can handle, I would feel comfortable hunting anything in the lower 48 states with a 45 Colt chambered rifle and the proper bullet at modest ranges.

[NHlever]

Glad to hear from folks that have used both on deer. How heavy are the bullets you have used in both? Do you think that I would get complete penetration with the Keith style 250 grainer in the Colt?

[Lloyd Smale]

one 6 point buck i shot quartering toward me was hit in the near side front shoulder and the bullet exited after breaking the bone in the opostite side hind quarter. Load was a 255 keith and 9.3 grains of herco for about 900 fps out of a 4 inch n frame. Not a 45 colt but ive also shot lenthwise threw a 260 lb boar with a 44 special shooting 250s at 1000 fps so a 45 colt out of a rifle will penetrate!

[JesterGrin_1]

45 colt wont work in the 45-70. The best plinkers for the 45-70 are either the 300gr bullets or beagle one of the .456 old army molds lee used to make and make a 220gr or so .459 to fit.


Can you tell us more about the .456 Lee Ruger Old Army mold and some loadings?

I have the mold and have been thinking about it lol. :) :drinks:

[bigdog454]

I've shot a few deer with a 45 colt (ruger BH) and have had pass thru with 230 gr and 255 gr FNL, none went more then 20 yards. velocities were 1250 and 1150fps. I have since gone to a .454 Casull because it's more accurate, but too much damage (overkill) with jacketed bullets, I have finally found the right combination of FNL 250 gr and powder for accurate lead bullets in my 454 and will use that for deer.

Now: I have recently purchased a Puma mdl 92 in 454, and it handles 45 colt rounds interchangeably. I get a velocity increase of about 250 fps with the same loads that I use in revolvers with the 454 250gr moving at up to 2050fps and 300 gr at 1840fps. Thats like shooting a 45-70, or near. It's a light and handy little, very accurate rifle, and I think should handle anything in N.A.

[Wayne Smith]

Plinking in the 45-70 - I have the NEI Collar Button mold, a 150gr one lube groove boolit that just puffs out of the barrel. I've not worked up a load cause I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that I need a scope on anything I'm shooting over 50 yds. Until I get scope and mounts for the Encore barrel I'll hold off doing much with that boolit, and then find a load that shoots, at 25yds, close to the point of aim of the 330gr Gould @100 yds. This is a touch heavier than a round ball but proved very accurate at 15yds. once I found where it was hitting!

[Bass Ackward]

Lets not kid ourselves here case capacity and bullet weight will always give the power edge to the 45-70 when the type of game requires it. But it all comes down to intent.

Reality? A very LARGE percentage of 45-70s are purchased then loaded and shot like they were 45 Colts.

[missionary5155]

As regards a .45LC vs. a .45-70, giving sufficient penetration to go through a horses neck and kill an Indian behind it, bear in mind that those were black powder days, and a .45LC case, has the capacity with smokeless powder, to far exceed original BP .45-70 ballistics, given the right rifle.
Morgan

Now here is some right application... I am not sure the largest boolit you can fire out of 45 Colt in a rifle.. but if it is a 300 or so then yep.. this is a powerhouse !
I would not hessitate to hunt a heavier critter with a 300 grainer at 1300 + fps. I do not know how fast the rifle or cartridge would permit but if that FPS can get up to 1500 fps then that makes this a viable "thumper". BUT it still will NEVER compete with a 45-70 with BIGGER boolits (400+) and downright stopping big nasty chomping jaws.

[missionary5155]

Again it is all about application. Deer are somewhat fragile critters. The shoulder is tough.. but lots of calibers will punch through. The 25-20 was used to pop deer (probably still is) and the .357 mag is sufficient up close. I used to think far differently than today about power... I used to think the 12 guage slug could whack anything. But when a 25 foot croc was shot at less than 5 feet (straight down) with two 1 ounce slugs in the neck/head joint and both slugs smashed on contact and slid off only making said 25 foot croc even meaner I started understanding why BIG game hunters (Africa) decided 12 guage was minimal for dangerous game. White tail deer hunting is relatively safe... But I still prefer to have all the edge I can get. You just never know when an irrate buck will come charging horns down.

[NoDakJak]

No!!!!! You don't want to fire 45LC rounds in a rifle chambered to 45.70. A couple years a grandson brought me a replica Trapdoor that someone had tried that with. The case did not form a gas seal, pressure got behind the case and blew it several inches down the barrel. It is lucky that the firing pin didn't blow out. I had a hell of a time getting the case out of the barrel.
Yes! The 45LC will give full penetration on broadside shots on both deer and hogs if the proper boolit is used. Try it and see for yourself. A couple years ago I read a release from the Canadiam War Museum that stated that the Canadian Cavalry took the 45LC to South Africe in preference to the 455 Webley. They stated that the 455 would take down enemy cavalrymen very well but that the 45LC would also take down his horse, often giving full penetration on chest shots. The 45LC was THE magnum of that era.
I shoot both the 45LC and 44 Magnum in rifles and have come to the conclusion that Elmer Keith was right. If I am hunting something that may bite me I want the 44 Magnum. Not for the power but because it has a bigger rim and stronger brass. What ever animal you shoot with one of these certainly not going to be able to tell the difference. Neil

[swifty]

Let me turn this around. Why not shoot a heavy 320 grain LFN cast bullet in a Marlin 45 LC Lever action Rifle. The Bullet would be deep seated in a 45 LC case to be within the max limit of 1.60. I made a dummy round and it will feed nicely in my Marlin 45 LC Cowboy. I am pondering on loading it on top of 5.5 grains of Red Dot. Bullet has a length of .820 sized .545. The OL length of cartridge is 1.585. I haven't tried this load but am
looking for data to make sure there would not be any weird pressure issues with the heavy bullet. I may try this through my chronograph.

[PatMarlin]

I was looking through my data to see if I chrono'd one of my favorite accrurate loads for the 45 LC- 320 gr .455 LBT LFN w/22gr of IMR 4227. Fine accuracy out to 100 yrds in my Blackhawk, but no velocity data.

[PatMarlin]

Just found some chrono data on it. Average 1040. Through it was more than that.

[Ed Barrett]

I use a 92 clone in .454 casull. with a 400 grain bullet in front of lil' gun it will do about anything that a 45-70 will do.

[missionary5155]

I use a 92 clone in .454 casull. with a 400 grain bullet in front of lil' gun it will do about anything that a 45-70 will do.
Now the .454 would be a thumper... I have carried 45-70 rifles along time and agree I tote mostly 300-350 grain boolits loaded to 1300-1500 fps for misc. woods romping.. plenty of power. Only once was I ever stopped in my tracks thinking "I need a 450 grain at 1600 in my pocket"... I had walked my old trail to a small willow thicket that my hand cut trail went around... it was impossible for me to squeze my 155 pounds through. But that day a LARGE bear walking my path earlier had not gone around but uprooted a 2 foot wide path through the thicket. I never saw the bear... but I do carry HEAVY Emergency Smashers with me. Even when out with my 12 gauge.. I always have at least one .685 round ball load (1400 fps) in my pocket.
The 45 Colt is a great cartridge in the new rifles.. .454 MUCH better...(and I may NEED one of these) But they just are not gonna replace my 45-70´s..

[bobk]

missionary5155,
Sounds like you shot the croc with a soft foster factory load. I've done penetration tests with hard cast RB in both the 20 and the 12. I shot through a heavy steel sign, backed by my woodpile. In either gauge, the boolit zipped through the sign, and went a couple of inches or more into the endgrain of the wood. From this rather casual experiment, I concluded that those balls would penetrate the shoulder or skull of any game I am likely to hunt, at close range. I wouldn't necessarily expect straight penetration very far through the animal, though. Not any noticeable difference between the 12 or the 20, BTW.

Bob K

[missionary5155]

If you punch a white tail with a .45 250 grain boolit at 1300 + fps where you should (lungs, heart, through the shoulders, spine... I do not try brain shots) you are going home with meat. I prefer 300 grains... but there is no whitetail that will ever know the difference.

[Potsy]

Up until about 6 months ago I had a .45 Colt 94 Trapper. I bought it about 2 weeks before Winchester announced they were going to stop making them and my new "truck gun" became a safe queen. Traded it.

Anyhow, in reveiwing my notes, a 265 grain WFNGC on top of 27 grains of W-296 went 1770 fps. A 300 grain Hornady J-word bullet over 23 grains of the same powder made 1550 fps, both out of what I believe was a 16.5" barrel. FWIW, my favorite load of a 260 grain 454424 Lyman over 21 grains of 2400 went about 1525 fps.

Never shot anything but cans and paper with it; but it's hard to imagine anything in Tennessee that any of the cast loads wouldn't lengthwise and slap real hard in the process.

That having been said, a 45-70 in a modern lever gun should be able to easily duplicate those speeds and more with another 100 grains worth of bullet. Metplat notwithstanding.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Hey Potsy, You a cop? I you are/were, you know why I ask :mrgreen:
Morgan

[Potsy]

Morgan,
Nope, not a cop.
Though it sounds like you might have an entertaining tale to tell.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

OK, Here goes.
Back in my day, an NYPD badge was sometimes called a "potsy". The reason for this, was that the New York City version of the child's game hopscotch, is called "potsy", and the playing piece we threw into the squares, to be picked up, as you skipped through, was a folded and stomped-on tin can, which resembled nothing so much as the patrolman's badge.

There was a cartoon strip in the funny papers years ago. A cop named Potsy. A humorous, good natured guy, treated with respect. In fact, we enjoyed it so much, we made the cartoonist (can't remember his name),an honorary member of our PBA. So you can understand why I thought you might be a cop.
Morgan

[missionary5155]

That having been said, a 45-70 in a modern lever gun should be able to easily duplicate those speeds and more with another 100 grains worth of bullet. Metplat notwithstanding.[/QUOTE]
Yep The New Winnys 45-70 will push a 400 grainer right past 1900 ... I have read some loads going past 2000 (I am well pressed with 1900+) I have the light weight and the Octagon models. The light weight is a GREAT powerhouse woods loafing rifle. The Octagon weighs ALOT... OK for short walks... or hauling on 2 wheels.. [smilie=2:

[Potsy]

Morgan,
Pretty neat tale.
As for my occupation, I'm a sales rep., for any who wondered.
For me, Potsy was just an unflattering nickname I picked up in college (we'll leave out the details) that has stuck around for about the last 15 years. Friends still call me that, their parents and grandparents called me that, and now thier children call me that. May as well roll with it.
This thread did get me to wondering, does Marlin build thier '94 in any configuration similar to the Trapper in .45 Colt? I couldn't really tell on thier website.
I liked the Trapper, but it needed a set of XS sights, a trigger job, sling studs, and a recoil pad to do what I wanted it to do. I hated to do that to a "collector piece"; but I would like to have another short, handy .45 levergun and I don't really care for the Puma. Ideas?

[NickSS]

I own 45 Colt and 45-70 rifles (actually several of each) and both will kill deer and elk within their proper ranges. Talking defence against big bears I want a 400 gr slug at 1800 fps or more ( have had face to face encounters with big kodiak bears in Alanska and I know of what I speak. As far as killing white tails or any other deer in this country you can do that with just about any cartridge that throws a slug out the muzzle. I have seen whitetails killed with a 22 long rifle and I have killed them with a 38 special in a 2 inch chief special revolver, a 40 cal muzzle loader loaded with 50 gr of powder and a patched ball and a 30 cal carbine loaded with 100 gr hornady half jacket plinkers. So its not surprizing to me that a 45 colt will do one in.