FBI 9mm load

[Thumbcocker]

I have heard that the FBI is adopting the 9mm Hornaday critical duty round. Just for giggles; does anyone know how it stacks up to the old +p.38 FBI load energy wise?🤔

[roverboy]

Is it the 124 gr. load that they are switching to? If so, it might expand a little better than the old .38 load but, I don't know if it will beat it on penetration. The 158 gr. swchp +p is a good load in .38 Spl.

[JBinMN]

You might try comparing the two using the tables in this calculator if you know the specifics it is asking for:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

I would be interested to know as well, but I do not have the data for the 9mm load you are describing, and reckon you would have it so I do not have to go look it up.
LOL
;)

[RJM52]

Last I heard it was 147 grains... Someone posted on another Forum that it was 135....

147s are going between 950 and a 1000.... The 135s run 1050-1100.

Basically a 15 shot .38 Special +P.....

[Wayne Dobbs]

It's a +P 135 grain load at about 1100 fps. Hornady has been taking LE contracts all over the country and this load is their flagship load in 9mm. Works well if the shooter works well...

[JBinMN]

A comparison using the calculator posted earlier with just some "inferred" data. The results are the ENERGY, MOMENTUM & TAYLOR KO score:

Load One (9mm)
Weight in grains
135
Velocity in fps
1100
Caliber in inches
.356
Energy
362
Momentum
21
Taylor KO
7

-------------------------------

Load Two ( 38 Special)
Weight in grains
158
Velocity in fps
950
Caliber in inches
.357

Energy
316
Momentum
21
Taylor KO
7

--------------------------
Load Three ( 38 Spec.)
Weight in grains
158
Velocity in fps
1000
Caliber in inches
.357
Energy
350
Momentum
22
Taylor KO
8

[Plate plinker]

Ha I doubt they will stay with it for more than a year or two. Seems the FBI switch’s duty ammo more than any other police agency.

[RJM52]

Ha I doubt they will stay with it for more than a year or two. Seems the FBI switch’s duty ammo more than any other police agency.

I think it is more perception than reality... Since the Miami shooting they have mainly issued the 147 Subsonic for the 9mm and the 180 for the .40 S&W.

[Outpost75]

Not the FBI 9mm load, but Speer 147-grain Gold Dot G2 load gives 950 fps from my 1-7/8" barrel S&W Model 940 in 9mm.

That's more juice than the 147-grain Federal Hydrashok .38 Special +P+ from a similar length barrel and much hotter than the 158 lead HP FBI load from a snubby.

[Forrest r]

There's 3 different critical duty 9mm loads put out by hornady.

#90215
124gr bullet 1175fps
#90225
135gr bullet 1110fps
#90235
135gr bullet 1010fps

The critical duty 135gr #90225's have a slower burning powder/18% more powder by weight than the #90235's. Same bullet just differernt powder and more of it.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The 135 +P is the only 9mm duty pistol load in use in both Dallas PD and Texas DPS (along with lots of other medium PDs). Both use their pistols on slow learners frequently, so we should have a good idea soon.

[FergusonTO35]

The 1010 fps load sounds like a real honey, I need to get me some.

[RJM52]

I read on another forum that the FBI was using the 135 CD 1110 fps load....

[RU shooter]

It makes no sense went to the 9mm cause the 38 wasn't enough then to the 10mm cause the 9mm wasn't enough then to the 40 cause the 10mm was too much now we're back to the 9mm. Cause ?? Who knows?? Methinks better training is needed instead of the quest for the ultimate pistol caliber or magic bullet . I've carried all of the listed calibers except the 38 when I worked as a patrolman also the 45 acp never felt undergunned with any of them would still carry any of them if went back to that line of work . Always thought the 40 with the 155 gold dot at 1200 fps was a good balance .

[charlie b]

IMHO it has to do with the ammo companies and the test requirements. The FBI std tests include a specific minimum of penetration in gel after going though various medium, including car windshields, layers of denim, etc. They have engineered the 9MM CD to do just that so many organizations are going back to the 9mm.

I have done the same. I went back to a 9mm for a number of reasons and use the Hornady ammo for carry. I really like shooting the 9mm more than my .45's and I am confident in my ability with it.

The problem with the 9mm in the 'old days' was it lacked the ability to meet the FBI standards, hence the move to 10mm, then .40.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Law enforcement agencies choose guns their employees can qualify with. Qualification courses are 50 rounds. Agents / officers ranks include the vertically challenged/small hand variety that Human Resources insures are included in the staffing. Magazine capacity is factored in as an assumed good thing. Combine these considerations and small grip high capacity low recoiling guns are the result. Law enforcement agents are busy doing their job making Range time a relatively small percent on the annual duty hours.

I did 30 years as a LEO and was a firearms instructor. Looking back over my career I shake my head over what we did and say Elmer Keith was right.

[Mr_Sheesh]

A 45ACP gets a KO score of 13 and I can show you how little recoil it actually has (have a TINY gal hold one that's set up right, with just their thumb on the extended safety and tip of their trigger finger on the trigger - Other fingers out of the way.) - It will rock upwards but not "fly out of her hand"; People get afraid of it but can learn NOT to be afraid of it - and then it's a good choice. But, use what you want :) I wish I still had the video of that one tiny gal shooting a 1911, very accurate and just thumb and trigger finger. (Speed of the next shot sucks, doing that, but it shows you how little recoil the 1911 has. Use a Weaver stance and you get pretty good speed on the 2nd shot :) Same thing for 9mm, people just need to learn that the gun's NOT that violent, and get used to it; Lack of training issue IMO.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Our local range is very active, we hosted the Nationals years ago in IHMSA. I witnessed a 14 year old girl set a range record hitting 5 out of 5 half sized metal silhouette targets at 200 yards with her 7x30 Waters TC Contender.

[Dieselhorses]

Here's the "lo-down">>> https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/01/09/federal-unveils-pistol-ammo-built-meet-new-fbi-standards.html

[9.3X62AL]

Law enforcement agencies choose guns their employees can qualify with. Qualification courses are 50 rounds. Agents / officers ranks include the vertically challenged/small hand variety that Human Resources insures are included in the staffing. Magazine capacity is factored in as an assumed good thing. Combine these considerations and small grip high capacity low recoiling guns are the result. Law enforcement agents are busy doing their job making Range time a relatively small percent on the annual duty hours.

I did 30 years as a LEO and was a firearms instructor. Looking back over my career I shake my head over what we did and say Elmer Keith was right.

^^^^ THIS! ^^^^

Succinctly put, SJH. Right with ya, sir.

The "135 grain x 1110 FPS" loading is closer to the 9mm's full potential, and is more powerful than the "147 grain x 950 FPS" sub-sonic load that FBI has proselytized for LE since the 1986 Miami debacle. This load still is not up to European standards or to the level of the M-9 ammo issued in the using services 9mm arms--these propel a 124 grain bullet into the 1250 FPS realm, though the bullet is a non-expanding design as required by the Hague Conventions. Swap that FMJ/RN bullet for a good controlled-expansion HP design, and the 9mm is a viable carry option. I have Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dots on board in my 9mms, in the P-226 they run 1210-1230 FPS and in Marie's P-228 they get 1170-1200 FPS.

[tazman]

I was talking to a soldier who was home on leave while at the gun range a couple of months ago. I showed him my Range Officer in 9mm and he loved it.
He told me he was a range instructor in his service job. He said they had quite a few of the 1911 in 9mm there at the range for the women to shoot. Apparently some of the women had issues with the recoil of the Beretta M9 with NATO loads. They would give them the 1911 to qualify with since it has far less felt recoil than the M9.

[FergusonTO35]

Hmm, interesting. I always found the Beretta soaked up recoil better than most other pistols. Mebbe the slimmer grip of the 1911 just gave them a better purchase?

[tazman]

I can tell a marked difference in recoil between my Beretta and 1911 Range officer. The 1911 is easier to control for follow up shots.
I hadn't considered it until the soldier told me about it. The next trip to the range, I took both pistols and compared them.
The Beretta weighs 33 ounces while the 1911 weighs 41 ounces. That is where the difference comes in.

[RED BEAR]

could be that they need more training to handle recoil. i would think thats its a bad idea to give people a certain gun to qualify with shouldn't they be qualifying with there carry gun. my wife can shoot the eyes off a flea with a ruger 22 cant hit the broad side of a barn with my snub nose 41 mag. the key to handling ones self in a gun fight is train train train. it wouldn't solve all problems but in a stress situation almost everyone resorts to what is instinctive. the caliber is less important than shot placement .

[Mr_Sheesh]

The other thing that can help is whether the axis of the bore is higher or lower in your hand than the other gun's axis; Higher axis = more leverage to flip the muzzle up, lower axis = the recoil goes more through your hand, less perceived recoil.

[LAH]

9mm, 38, 357, 40, 10mm & 45. Recoil, noise & flash. The agencies search for something the officers can use. I'm around many policeman & most are not gun guys just like many timber cutters aren't chainsaw men. If our Officers were mostly top shots & expert gunmen who eat breathe & sleep guns things might be different.

[tazman]

could be that they need more training to handle recoil. i would think thats its a bad idea to give people a certain gun to qualify with shouldn't they be qualifying with there carry gun. my wife can shoot the eyes off a flea with a ruger 22 cant hit the broad side of a barn with my snub nose 41 mag. the key to handling ones self in a gun fight is train train train. it wouldn't solve all problems but in a stress situation almost everyone resorts to what is instinctive. the caliber is less important than shot placement .

I agree completely. A person should train and qualify with what they will be carrying.

[roverboy]

9mm, 38, 357, 40, 10mm & 45. Recoil, noise & flash. The agencies search for something the officers can use. I'm around many policeman & most are not gun guys just like many timber cutters aren't chainsaw men. If our Officers were mostly top shots & expert gunmen who eat breathe & sleep guns things might be different.

That's some good points. Some cops consider their duty side arm to be a hindrance. A lot, like you said, are not into guns much.

[9.3X62AL]

This idea wasn't of my development, but I read or heard it 20-30 years ago regarding the average law officer's focus on sidearm training and skill set development........most personnel would rather spend $30-$35 of their own money on a "Cross" pen and pencil set for report writing than for a box of 50 cartridges.

"Tools change, but the art remains constant....." (another saying that stuck in my wool-gathering memory). I retired 13 years ago, and 10 years prior to that date (c. 1995) I was producing narrative sections of my reports--arrest warrants--and search warrants on digital media. MANY advances in digital writing and recording technology continue, and LE personnel jump on board with those advances readily.

Sidearms have not changed a great deal, though. If we are honest and direct in our analyses, most of what gets carried for felon repellent by both citizens and law officers Borders on the prehistoric. The pistols and the ammunition they dispense have been improved and refined to some degree, but the 9mm Parabellum is 116 years old, and the 45 ACP came about 3 years later. The 40 S&W arrived in the late 1980s and achieved immediate popularity, but its ballistics are not a new development--it mimics the 38/40 of the 1880s pretty closely as produced by a Colt single action so chambered, and its older & more powerful brother the 10mm Auto duplicates 1880s 38/40 performance from an 1873 Winchester.

Sidearm caliber and platform choices are hotly debated in self-defense circles, by both citizens and law enforcement. Law enforcement can be further sectioned into line troops (the folks getting shot at) and the staff section who are charged with policy development and equipment recommendations. My old shop (Riverside Co. CA Sheriff) handled these questions in what I think is a very positive manner, and this dates from 1987--the Academy came up with make, model, and caliber guidelines and let the troops buy whatever they wanted to carry that fell within those guidelines. That solved one of the biggest headaches of weapons policy planners--that no one is ever satisfied with someone else's selection. I won't belabor the details, but most mainstream makers' models are approved for most venues, and caliber choices are 380 ACP--38 Special--357 Magnum--9mm Para--40 S&W--and 45 ACP. Over 300 make/model selections are approved. If a deputy can't find something in a field that wide, there is a problem.

Few people carry 380 ACP or 9mm apart from plainclothes or off-duty venues. 38 Special and 357 Magnum are uber-popular for back-up and off-duty use, and a few old dogs still use the 357 Magnum on duty. 40 S&W is a consensus favorite, with the 45 ACP a close 2nd place. I don't see the 9mm getting adopted as Coin Of The Realm at my old shop anytime soon.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I sent you a PM

[charlie b]

Have the SEALs gone back to a .45 for normal carry over the Sig 9mms? They also had the HK .45 when a silencer was needed. I also read somewhere that more were carrying Glocks but not sure if .45 or 9mm.

I remember a conversation with a Brit SAS and Army SF type at a breakfast table. Both carried 9mm. They considered it more than adequate.

[jmort]

The SEALs moved to Glock 19. But from what I know, they still carry 9mm Sigs, or anything else they want.

[tazman]

I had a neighbor who had been in special forces and took part in the Iraq/ Afghanistan unpleasantness. He helped clear houses part of the time. His primary weapon was a sniper rifle but used his 9mm for house work.
His complaint about it was the ammunition. He said if the government let them carry hollow points, it would be a good round but didn't like the FMJ. They wouldn't kill quickly enough.
He told of shooting a number of people who ran from the room and picked up weapons in another room while carrying several bullets from 9mm pistols. The big problem as he told it, was the enemy were always on some kind of drugs so didn't really feel simple holes in their bodies. He recommended a good 9mm hollow point or a 45ACP, take your pick.
He said he got hold of some 9mm hollow points at one time and they worked well until they ran out. Couldn't get them over there and weren't supposed to carry them when they could.

[44MAG#1]

The Taylor KOV was determined by John Pondoro Taylor and it was based on FULL METAL non expanding bullets. Meaning they don't expand after making contact with game and was based on his experience shooting near the brain of elephants to see how long they would stay down with a shot that stunned the animal.
Am I wrong? There is a possibility. But studying the writings of Mr. Taylor may be surprising to many.

Again I mean no harm, hurt or anguish by what I have posted. It is only based on my knowledge, belief and /or experience only, nothing more. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone here about anything and don't want to give the idea that I am. Thank you.

[nicholst55]

Although it hasn't been openly discussed (not that I'm aware of, anyway), at least the Army seems to be gearing up for JHP 9mm ammo. The new XM17 and 18 pistols (Sig P320) are designed to run JHP ammo, specifically. JHP pistol ammo is technically authorized for use against terrorists, since none of the terror groups are Hague agreement signatories.

[tazman]

While possibly legal against terrorists, I don't believe it would be allowed in a combat zone. Too much chance of it being used against someone who has signed the agreement. It would only take one confirmed person killed by that ammunition for all kinds of bad things to start.
I know some of the enemy are already breaking the rules, but as yet we don't have to be just as bad.
Undoubtedly some are already using it when they get the chance as I mentioned earlier.

[tazman]

@Tazman,

I thought the US never signed the Hague agreement, that we only "choose" to abide by it. So, there is no official prohibition against us using any ammunition we wish, whether the enemy is a signatory or not. Besides, the mandated use of FMJ ammunition is more likely to cause "excess" pain and suffering than JHP ammunition which turns the reasoning for only using FMJ ammunition on its head. The only arguments for FMJ ammunition that ever made sense to me were 1) potential for wounding multiple enemy combatants from pass-throughs, and wounding rather than killing a combatant can occupy and keep multiple combatants off the field of battle as they help the wounded soldier. I suspect most of our soldiers would prefer a rapid clean stop/kill instead.

Marshall

That was also the reasoning I heard for the use of FMJ. I don't know about the Hague signings. No information.
I think it would fall under "Just how bad do you want to look to the world?" Or do you even care about that?
Clean, fast kills are preferred under some circumstances rather than wounding since drugged up combatants may not stop with just a wound. Some combatants just leave the wounded on the field for the enemy to deal with.

[Livin_cincy]

I was talking to a soldier who was home on leave while at the gun range a couple of months ago. I showed him my Range Officer in 9mm and he loved it.
He told me he was a range instructor in his service job. He said they had quite a few of the 1911 in 9mm there at the range for the women to shoot. Apparently some of the women had issues with the recoil of the Beretta M9 with NATO loads. They would give them the 1911 to qualify with since it has far less felt recoil than the M9.

That seems odd to receive qualification on a weapon they would not be issued. I never of knew of not qualifying with the issued platform and receiving qualification. I think something got lost in translation.

[tazman]

That seems odd to receive qualification on a weapon they would not be issued. I never of knew of not qualifying with the issued platform and receiving qualification. I think something got lost in translation.

I ask him some very specific questions about that when he told me because I thought you would need to qualify with the weapon you would carry also. His answer was a surprise but I guess it should not have been in today's PC culture.
He said they didn't have enough women in the particular group who could qualify with the Beretta. They were required to have a certain number of women in the group, so they went with a pistol for qualifying that the women could qualify with. Apparently if they didn't have enough women pass the course, it was going to be an issue, so they did what was necessary to get them through it.
I have problems with that on several levels but won't go into that here.
I had previously talked to another former military instructor who helped me greatly when I was starting with the 1911. He said that when the women couldn't qualify with the 1911 in 45ACP(this was before the switch to 9mm), he would shoot targets and the targets would get passed off as the women's in order to get the required number of women to pass. This is even worse in my opinion.
Apparently there is some level of "get them through the course" going on in order to meet numbers.

[FergusonTO35]

I can believe it. Longtime coppers at the place I used to work said that no one in the entire history of the agency had failed to complete training or dismissed from their job for failure to qualify. They said that sometimes, qualification means the instructor stands behind the student with his own hands wrapped around the students'. Or, the student can't qualify because of all the commotion going on so they make a special range session where it's only the student and instructor. Meaning, the targets might not actually be 25 yards away during qualification.;)

[tazman]

@Tazman,

From the Hague Convention of 1899 (comes from Wikipedia, so apply appropriate skepticism as to accuracy)

(IV,3) Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations

This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." This directly banned soft-point bullets (which had a partial metal jacket and an exposed tip) and "cross-tipped" bullets (which had a cross-shaped incision in their tip to aid in expansion, nicknamed "Dum Dums" from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India). It was ratified by all major powers, except the United States.

Marshall

Interesting. I didn't know that.