It's alive... and cheap to reload for!

[NoZombies]

After some work, I'm now the proud owner of a S&W K frame in .22 ladybug. Purists will hate this gun for several reasons, but I think I'm gonna have fun with this one!

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-1.JPG
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-2.JPG

"What is 22 ladybug?" you might ask. The answer can be found here: The-22-ladybug (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356567-Introducing-The-22-ladybug). But for those who don't want to read the long thread, it's a CF wildcat cartridge designed to replicate the .22 LR in a reloadable format.
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/1.JPG
http://nozombies.com/ladybug/SW-3.JPG

I haven't tested for accuracy yet, but the test firing was good, and I have high hopes as a woods wandering gun.

[EMC45]

Super cool!

[sparkyv]

Purists schmurists. Very cool...enjoy!

[zymguy]

VERY cool

[GhostHawk]

Looks awesome!

[P Flados]

Congrats.

Hope it shoots as good as it looks.

[Chad5005]

very cool I have never seen one

[rancher1913]

some guys on this site just amaze me with what they can do.

[45workhorse]

some guys on this site just amaze me with what they can do.

You got that right!

[redhawk0]

I followed your ladybug thread for a while. You do nice work. I love seeing it come to fruition for you. Let us know how accurate it is...there are still many that are interested.

Congrats.

redhawk

[Dieselhorses]

Never seen one! Learn something new every day! Very unique.

[NyFirefighter357]

I'm interested in the Ladybug & have been following the thread since the beginning. Congrats.

[adcoch1]

Read your thread and loved it on the ladybug! But you may have outdone even the cool cartrige by picking the perfect firearm to build it in. That would be the perfect woods bumming gun. Very nicely done, let us know how she shoots!

[NoZombies]

Thanks guys!

I was looking for a blued cylinder, but the SS cylinder was a lot cheaper... And available. Since I turned the rear portion of it to clear the frame lug, it ended up allowing my laziness to have a better result. I would have felt the need to replace the lug if the cylinder had been blued... now the rear matches the diameter of the recoil plate. It's not quite right, but it works.

I'm hoping that it'll shoot well, if not, I picked up a M17 barrel that I can replace the M48 barrel with to get a tighter bore. I haven't measured yet to see if the twist rates are different, and I haven't been able to find documentation, but I suspect they're both 1-15...

[Catshooter]

Too cool for school! Can't wait to hear how it shoots.


Cat

[texasnative46]

NICE. = Ought to be FINE for bunnies & bushytails.

yours, tex

[Nueces]

I'm a purist and that revolver is Pure D Cool!

[KenH]

Congrats!!! I've read your ladybug rifle threads and here's the perfect companion revolver. Be sure to post how it shoots.

[bedbugbilly]

150 years from now, somebody is going to run across that wheel gun and go, "What the heck?" LOL

I've followed your posts as well and I'm thinking you are going to have a whole lot of fun with this! Good on you! Enjoy and thanks for the post - it's interesting to read what you are doing!

[Shingle]

That has been a cool post to keep up with, the revolver is really cool. I have a Rossi .22/.410 receiver that may become host for this one if I find the money and materials.

[Gunslinger1911]

I have been following the other thread, really cool !!!

I keep thinking of what 22 lr would be easy to convert to CF !

During the rimfire shortage I went the 22 Hornet route with a Ruger #1, fun but something that pretty much mimmics the LR but centerfire - I'm in !!!

[trapper9260]

Now to see the gun now.That is something now to see how it will be for what you will do next with it.For how it was some time ago for 22lr I went and got a 327 BH to use if need be ,to shoot 32 S&W out of it for the trap line. But I still will now if I like to or anything else. Now I got what i feel ok with now for the 22lr I stock up on now. But to see this in a gun now is going to be some thing think about.

[RED BEAR]

i will admit i have never heard of this cartridge. seems interesting.

[dlbarr]

never heard of it before but THAT is cool!!

Wonder if that cartridge would work in my H&R 922?

[woodbutcher]

[smilie=s: Very nice Sir.Thanks for posting the pictures.Looking forward to the range testing.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[TCLouis]

Nice . . .

Now take off work shoot all night do whatever it takes to get performance details to those non purists of us that you have hooked on the idea.

[skeet1]

Just curious as to what powders are useful in loading that cartridge, I would guess Bullseye and others like it.

Ken

[scattershot]

Cool project. I admire your ingenuity, but it sure seems like the long way around the barn. Do you have to turn the cases on a lathe?

[NoZombies]

Just curious as to what powders are useful in loading that cartridge, I would guess Bullseye and others like it.

Ken
Yes, things in the speed range of red-dot and bullseye are pretty useful. I've only experimented with a few powders so far, but they've all shown good accuracy in the contender. I'm hoping the K frame will be as omnivorous.


Cool project. I admire your ingenuity, but it sure seems like the long way around the barn. Do you have to turn the cases on a lathe?

Thanks! You are absolutely right about being a little less than practical. The cases do take a quick turn on the lathe, but I've got a form tool cut, and collets that make the lathe work pretty quick. At the end of the day the project is probably as much about the journey as it is about the outcome. I've been enjoying both!

[DonMountain]

Well, I just don't think anything less than 44 Magnum will do in a handgun for us real He-Men. So, I think all of you feeble type people need to wake up. But, on second thought I think my wife (she is only 4'-9" tall and 98 pounds) would enjoy this one. And of course I would have to make sure it shoots right for her?

[Fishman]

That is super cool.

[osteodoc08]

Looking forward to more info on load development and ballistics out of the K frame

[smoked turkey]

All I can say is THIS IS BEYOND AWESOME! I agree with the above posts about your chosen platform. I like it and am anxious as is everyone else as to how it performs. Love the photo shot from the rear of the cylinder showing the loaded rounds.

[LAH]

Hope it works great for you.

[NoZombies]

Thanks guys!

I'm hoping to have a little time on the next few weeks to do some actual accuracy testing, but so far I know it'll make a headshot on a squirrel at 15 yards with it's current sight settings...

Literally the first shot that wasn't fired into a bullet trap got the revolver's first blood. That's a record in my shop! While I expect the main game shot by the K-frame will be paper, It does seem like it's gonna do it's job on small game as well.

I need to find a good holster for it though.... I kinda like the idea of a flap holster, but I don't even know anybody making one these days.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I am curious on what you had to do to make it; Firing pin has to be swapped from some other K frame that's centerfire, and the cylinder rebored from 22LR as well? Anything other than those needed for mods?

[fjruple]

Super Cool!!

[NoZombies]

I am curious on what you had to do to make it; Firing pin has to be swapped from some other K frame that's centerfire, and the cylinder rebored from 22LR as well? Anything other than those needed for mods?

In this case, the revolver started life as a CF gun, and had a barrel and cylinder fitted to it. Then the cylinder was chambered for the cartridge.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Aah! Interesting :)

[NoZombies]

The first groups aren't spectacular, but at least it's showing promise.

20 yards with my arms across a railing, but not an actual rest. Not sure why, but basically every group is showing vertical stringing. This group is about average for the last 3 or 4 groups I shot (out of 7). Each group seemed to be getting slightly better; Either I'm getting more used to shooting the gun, or maybe laying down a layer of lube in the barrel? I dunno.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/T1.JPG

I'll shoot some more later in the week if I can get time, and see if I can make any improvement.

[Catshooter]

Sweet. How's the velocity?


Cat

[NoZombies]

Sweet. How's the velocity?


Cat

I don't have an answer on that one yet, I've got to break out the oehler to find out, and I just didn't have the time today. Maybe later in the week or next week I'll be able to sneak out again and find out!

My guess based on observation would be somewhere in the 800-850 FPS range. Loads could certainly be pushed harder, but a big priority long term will be finding a load that can be shared between the long guns and the revolver that will be accurate enough in whatever, and remain subsonic in the long guns for suppression. With that said, I'm sure I'll make up some hotter loads for the revolver as well to see what can be done...

If I can find another cylinder (or two), I'd chamber one for a version of the cartridge with a 1" long case for 'magnumization'. The 1" brass can be made easily enough from hornet brass, and possibly 5.7 brass, though I've had less luck with the 5.7 stuff...

[NoZombies]

It works well, Caught this little bugger climbing out of a hole he or his compatriots had chewed in my siding, nailed him when I had the clear shot.

http://nozombies.com/ladybug/sq.JPG

[HATCH]

In this case, the revolver started life as a CF gun, and had a barrel and cylinder fitted to it. Then the cylinder was chambered for the cartridge.

that was gonna be my question next
Just wondering what savings is over just buying a 32/20 revolver?

[NoZombies]

that was gonna be my question next
Just wondering what savings is over just buying a 32/20 revolver?

I can't think of a good reason a 32-20 wouldn't be better for just about everything. But it wouldn't make me smile as much :)

This gun (and caliber) doesn't answer any important questions, or really do anything any better than anything else. But it's not supposed to, not really anyways. I could think of it as kind of an exercise in pushing the limits of efficiency in lead and powder, or case forming, or maybe some other things, if I felt the need to justify it. It's fun, functional, and because I could do the work myself, wasn't expensive.

I see no commercial potential, it quite literally does nothing that you can't do with a .22 LR or magnum. It's okay if people scratch their heads, I used to drive British cars when I was younger, and they were even less practical, at least this one won't keep costing me money every time I look at it!

[Traffer]

Just a possible fyi. In a 22lr, varying crimp pressure can cause a vertical shot string. But that may only occur on rim fire. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[HATCH]

Please don’t take my question wrong.
I think it’s way cool but it doesn’t really bring anything to the table that isn’t already there.
I just can’t justify the modification.

[NoZombies]

Just a possible fyi. In a 22lr, varying crimp pressure can cause a vertical shot string. But that may only occur on rim fire. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

These rounds weren't crimped, but they were first loads on freshly made brass, and haven't been reamed yet, so neck tension variation is a real possibility. I normally ream after the first firing, now the brass is fire formed, and the reaming should help keep the tension consistent in the future.


Please don’t take my question wrong.
I think it’s way cool but it doesn’t really bring anything to the table that isn’t already there.
I just can’t justify the modification.

No worries, I'm not at all offended, as you said, it really isn't something most people would get much out of. Please don't take my tone as defensive, it isn't meant that way!

There might be some real legitimate uses for the cartridge where it would be better than something else out there, but they would be pretty limited, and narrow in scope.

For me, it's about being able to do something interesting. I've always been fascinated by small capacity cartridges, this is about as small as it gets. :)

[woodbutcher]

:D No Zombies is the type of person that innovation was built on.The inveterate tinkerer.
Go man go.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[joatmon]

In the first post it was said that this round was to work as 22rf (as in another shortage implied) and it looks as if you've done that I spades.
Great job.
Aaron

[NoZombies]

Well, the squirrel season is mostly done here, and between the contender and the little K-frame, I managed over 100 bushytails in 5 months. The Smith only accounted for about 20-25 of those, but it did so very well. 100-1 lead tin alloy in HP form weighing 33 grains anchored the little buggers well. My longest shot with the smith was a little over 50 yards.

I hadn't thought about the fact that as a .22 Magnum the model 48 barrel might have some copper fouling. Once I cleaned that all out, it started shooting a bit better. I'll have to find some targets to post, but it's holding 1" at 25 yards without any issue, and from a solid rest, I've gotten some groups around that size at 50 yards.

[arlon]

Maybe not totally practical, maybe not even a little practical but heck I've seen some WAY cool miniature internal combustions engines made that weren't practical either. That wasn't the point of them. The point was to exercise a skill and have a lot of fun doing it. I think it's as impractical of a firearm as I've ever seen but it also one of the coolest. I seldom see anything practical about doing ANY hobby, that's why it's a hobby and not a job. Love that S&W. (-:}

[NoZombies]

Maybe not totally practical, maybe not even a little practical but heck I've seen some WAY cool miniature internal combustions engines made that weren't practical either. That wasn't the point of them. The point was to exercise a skill and have a lot of fun doing it. I think it's as impractical of a firearm as I've ever seen but it also one of the coolest. I seldom see anything practical about doing ANY hobby, that's why it's a hobby and not a job. Love that S&W. (-:}

Thank you, You're right, practicality doesn't really come into play on a build like this one. And it's SO much fun! Easily one of the best ways I've spent a couple of days in the shop.

[scattershot]

As an engineering exercise, this is an outstanding example. Gotta ask, though, with pistol primers selling for .03 cents, and .22 LR selling now for around .05 cents, loaded and ready to go, is it worth the effort?

[NoZombies]

As an engineering exercise, this is an outstanding example. Gotta ask, though, with pistol primers selling for .03 cents, and .22 LR selling now for around .05 cents, loaded and ready to go, is it worth the effort?

From a financial standpoint, probably not, but from a personal satisfaction standpoint, very much so. Even economically it's not terrible, and costs me no more to reload than bulk .22 ammo costs to buy, but I have much better control over the ballistics.

As I've said, it's not a practical caliber, or gun, but It's more than paid for itself in entertainment value!

[Winger Ed.]

Way cool.

Don't worry about pureists.
They're really not much more of a threat than having Mrs. Kravitz for a neighbor.

[Texas by God]

If I had Samantha Stevens for a neighbor I'd be looking out the window too!
Sorry, got sidetracked there [emoji16]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[skeettx]

My K-22 was made into a 22 Harvey K-Chuck many years ago, currently I use jacketed .222 bullets
But might down load it and use .224 Cast Boolits, what fun, great idea, Thank You :)

[NoZombies]

My K-22 was made into a 22 Harvey K-Chuck many years ago, currently I use jacketed .222 bullets
But might down load it and use .224 Cast Boolits, what fun, great idea, Thank You :)

When I had a Kay-chuck, I didn't like shooting the jacketed stuff much, and found happiness with GC cast bullets and milder loads.

[LAH]

This has been a great thread.

[onelight]

Wow can’t imagine loading something that small.
A pound of powder should last generations! Great job.

[Green Frog]

NZ, have you looked at the “Velo Dog” brass Charles Adkins used when he built his CF Colt Woodsman? This is all second hand based on reading his books, but I believe that he made essentially a CF 22 LR for that project out of the French cartridge mentioned. According to him it was a World Beater, but the World wouldn’t let him use it! :|

Froggie

[Earlwb]

I like it. Very well done too. I can see it being very useful for if the Democrats take over and start controlling everything to death.

[NoZombies]

NZ, have you looked at the “Velo Dog” brass Charles Adkins used when he built his CF Colt Woodsman? This is all second hand based on reading his books, but I believe that he made essentially a CF 22 LR for that project out of the French cartridge mentioned. According to him it was a World Beater, but the World wouldn’t let him use it! :|

Froggie

Froggie,

At the end of the day, the ladybug and the 221 askins are close enough to identical that they could probably be used interchangeably. When Charlie was doing his thing Velo Dog brass was available (I think he used Remington) but still required some work (trim, rim diameter change, and extractor relief cut). the ladybug requires the same work, but also swaging the body down to diameter. If Velo dog brass was available cheaply, I'd probably use that.

I can't say I've achieved better accuracy than with quality .22 LR ammo, but in the contender, it's at least on par with match ammo, and I have so much more control over the variables. I can also load match quality ammo for $0.04 a round. With the S&W, It's hard to make a comparison, as I'm not the best pistol shooter, but the ladybug certainly isn't the weak link in the shooting.

I've got some other conversions in process that I'll be sharing when I get them shootable.

[Chev. William]

Nozombies,
Check Ebay for reproduction Military Flap holsters. I have bought two for use with M1911 pistols and for conversion to Ruger Standard Auto pistol holster.
I also have an old surplus M1911 holster that was Converted decades ago to hold my Ruger Standard Auto Pistol (pre-MK) with Blank Firing Adapter attached. It now holds my Target re-barreled pre-MK Ruger with its about 6" barrel.

RE: Col.Atkins cartridge. He DID win a National Championship with it; the Following year the NRA changed The competition rules so it was disallowed.
1935 rule = any Center fire Pistol; 1936 and After rule = any Center fire Pistol of .32 Caliber or larger.

A later Competitor used a Ruger Standard Auto converted to .32 Long and Wad cutter Bullets.

RE: purpose of the Ladybug. You said in the 'ladybug' thread why you began the process. If I remember Correctly, it was for a Subsonic reloadable cartridge for use in a Sound Suppressed firearm to use in varmint suppression in an Urban environment.
I believe you Did Successfully attain that goal for what you have written.

Re: what else is possible. There is always smaller calibers to conquer.
.29, .177, .172, .14, .12, .10 and possibly down to .025 diameters. The Main 'sticking point' would be suitable primers for CF versions of straight wall designs. Bottle Neck cases could still use Small Primers currently available.

On the 'ridiculous' end of things: I have read proposals for necking down .50BMG to both .22 and to .172 diameters of bullets. I thin they would make real 'Barrel Burners' indeed.

Smiling,
Chev. William

[NoZombies]

Not much of an update, but the S&W ladybug took it's first Racoon this evening. 20 yards isn't much of a feat, but the trash bandit dropped and twitched on the shot. Sorry, no pictures due to the dark...

[Jedman]

:drinks:

Jedman

[Scrounge]

I can think of one good reason(to me, anyway) for a centerfire .22LR/.22wmr equivalent, and that would be the ability to reload. Especially in the field or as a survival weapon. Wouldn't be any good for taking bears, maybe, but it would be a piece of cake to have a Lee Loader or Lyman 310 tool or something similar for the kit. You could fit a lot of boolits and a quarter pound of a powder like Unique in a very small space.

Somebody want to put up a link to the Ladybug thread? I wasn't able to find it on my own, but I'm interested. I'm putting together a small machine shop, and was planning on making a replica of my dad's Steven's Favorite once I'm set up and tooled up. This sounds like the perfect cartridge for that, and a matching pistol.

NoZombies, just because it maybe hasn't been done before doesn't mean it's not worth doing now. I like it! ;)

[NoZombies]

I can think of one good reason(to me, anyway) for a centerfire .22LR/.22wmr equivalent, and that would be the ability to reload. Especially in the field or as a survival weapon. Wouldn't be any good for taking bears, maybe, but it would be a piece of cake to have a Lee Loader or Lyman 310 tool or something similar for the kit. You could fit a lot of boolits and a quarter pound of a powder like Unique in a very small space.

Somebody want to put up a link to the Ladybug thread? I wasn't able to find it on my own, but I'm interested. I'm putting together a small machine shop, and was planning on making a replica of my dad's Steven's Favorite once I'm set up and tooled up. This sounds like the perfect cartridge for that, and a matching pistol.

NoZombies, just because it maybe hasn't been done before doesn't mean it's not worth doing now. I like it! ;)

The original thread is here: Introducing-The-22-ladybug (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356567-Introducing-The-22-ladybug) Though I need to write some more, as things have progressed some.

As far as components and required tools go, the ladybug is very simple and economical to reload for, once the brass is made. In a field reloading scenario though I wonder if the diminutive component requirements might be a double edged sword, handling the tiny cases and bullets can be challenging in a well lit shop, I'd hate to try it by campfire or candle light. With that said, a Lee loader type arrangement would be easy enough to put together, as I find that the brass only needs resizing after several firings, and even then, only a very small amount. It's similar in concept to the old stevens and ballard "everlasting" cartridges, in that it can be reloaded repeatedly without much more than a depriming rod and a way to seat primers.

The first dozen cases I made were eventually retired after 122 loadings. I was just looking at them on the bench today and wondering if I should pull them out and see just how long they might last...

[missionary5155]

Fantastic ! That really makes the work that much more rewarding.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup new to me too. I think its real cool (but they could have come up with a better name :confused:)

[murf205]

some guys on this site just amaze me with what they can do.

Me too rancher. I always tell a new member in the greeting that there are some VERY knowledgeable people here who are eager to help.
NZ, that's a little work of art and I am a-kind of- purist, but hey, a guy's got to tip his hat to an artist in metal.

[Tatume]

Unique! Love it.

[NoZombies]

yup new to me too. I think its real cool (but they could have come up with a better name :confused:)

My wife came up with the name.. And in spite of being cute, ladybugs are efficient predators of garden pests... my ladybug is just killing larger garden pests instead of aphids.. :razz:

Anyone who goes to the trouble of making their own may feel free to call it something else; I'm not the first person to make a cartridge like this, and claim no particular originality, although I will say that I didn't base my process on anyone else's work.

[Earlwb]

Nice. I like it too.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya I guess I turn some loose every year to take care of aphids.
My wife came up with the name.. And in spite of being cute, ladybugs are efficient predators of garden pests... my ladybug is just killing larger garden pests instead of aphids.. :razz:

Anyone who goes to the trouble of making their own may feel free to call it something else; I'm not the first person to make a cartridge like this, and claim no particular originality, although I will say that I didn't base my process on anyone else's work.