Paradox slug in a smooth bore?

[Bob9863]

Anyone tried a Svarog Paradox slug from eBay in a smooth bore?
I've been playing with .662, .690 round balls, Lyman Diablo style and a modified Lee key hole slug and I've had some success but my gun is incredibly good with GB foster slugs and I'm thinking that these hollow base Svarog Paradox slugs at .724 on top of a felt wad might come close.
My other option might be a .730 round ball but I don't like the idea with an imp/cyl choke.
I might have all the kinks worked out of my modified Lee slugs so it might not be needed, I do however really like the look of the paradox slug and think it would be great for pigs and deer.
227774

[leadhead 500]

For out to around 50 yards the Lyman.735 round ball is about as good as it gets in a improved cylinder choke, shot a ton of them through a smooth bore 870.

[longbow]

Personally I don't think they are weight forward enough and are undersize.

KrakenFan69 sent me some with the attached wads to test and from my gun they shot sort of okay but not great and that is with the attached wad.

I have knurled some up then sized back to bore diameter to see if that helps. Have not shot those yet. Knurling then sizing did help with typical Foster style HB slugs in my smoothbore.

However, without the attached wad I doubt they will do well from smoothbore. It doesn't hurt to try if you have the mould or some slugs but I doubt they will do very well.

You might want to try 0.678" RB in a shotcup. I've had some quite good results in smoothbore with those and 0.662" RB's in shotcups. The 0.678" RB's are just a hair small in a Winchester shotcup in my gun but one wrap of paper snugs them up nicely. They should be good through a slight choke too. I cloth patch the 0.662" RB's into shotcups and that works well.

0.735" RB's shoot very well too but I share your concern of bore size round balls and chokes. My gun is cylinder bore.

Longbow

[Bob9863]

Actually trying a cloth patch in a .662 might be interesting, I'd love to get them consistent, the trouble I have with them is they tent to go through the base of the shot cup, some go strait but others go way off course.
I'm going to try putting two nylon washers in under them to add support and keep them centered, they are on order ATM but maybe with a paper patch in the shot cup too they might work out.
I tried the modified Lee slugs today, the hot glue stoped them destroying the shot cup but I think I need to take the file to the mold again and add some more weight to the nose.
If I can put another 4gm up the front then they will be back to being 28gm and will be very nose heavy.
That's the last thing that I can think of, if it doesn't work then I will try the paradox slug.

But considering this was going to be my cheap slug project it's become anything but cheap.
I've spent about $500-$600 working it out so far and that could have bought me 250-300 factory slugs that group like a rifle in my gun.

But I guess it's ok as I've been having fun with it.

[gpidaho]

Bob9863: One may start this hobby with the idea that you'll save some money but the feeling soon passes. Gp

[megasupermagnum]

I don't know where you are, but in my area $500 would only get you about 150 shots of sabot slugs. I don't know what the name of it is, but there is a mold for a copy of what BPI sells as the dangerous game slug. That one shoots good from a smooth bore.

[Bob9863]

I've been shooting GB foster slugs, they shoot a **** near ragged hole at 50 yards, 1st time I tried them I had to shoot a second group because I thought it was a fluke.
They are about $22 a box of 10 do not horrible price wise, I will probably use them for deer as the ranges here are 50-100 yards most of the time, but for pigs I can go through 200 rounds easy on a weeks hunting trip, sometimes more but the ranges are always under about 60 yards usually 30 yards or less, so I wanted a cheap pump and dump load that would be cheap and effective.
If I can get around 4" at 50 yards I should be golden, but they have to be reasonably quick and easy to load.
I could use buckshot and my turkey choke, it throws a great 00 9 pellet buck pattern but they are getting pretty dear now too.
So if I can convert trap loads to get slugs group around 4" at 50 yards it will be an ideal round for the job.
I modified my slug mold last night and pumped out 40 more slugs to try, they are now 26.5gn and noticeably front heavy, I mounted a 3-9 scope on the gun to see if my recent problems were with the scope, but these new rounds are the best looking I've made yet and are easy to make so with any luck I might be there.
I'm going to test then after lunch so fingers crossed.
If they don't work then the paradox mold will get ordered, but I might get a rifled choke tube too.

[leadhead 500]

If you are shooting a smooth bore with a improved cylinder choke the Lyman.735 round ball is tough to beat, if you go with the rifled choke tube the Lyman 525 is a great slug it shoots great, kills good, and is easy to load

[longbow]

For round ball you need to include at least one 16 or 20 nitro card wad under the ball. Otherwise the shotcup bottom tries to swage around the ball leading to failures and inaccuracy.

Even better is a nitro card wad or two and a small scoop of Cream 'O Wheat on top, just enough for the ball to sit comfortably on and make a "seat".

When I cloth patch the 0.662" RB's I first select patch material that makes for a snug fit of patched ball in shotcup in the bore ~ snug push through the bore. Then to patch I load the hull with wad and all then patch the ball and insert through the wad fingers. Seems to work pretty well and accuracy can be very good.

But yes, you need support under that ball, any ball, for accuracy. The shotcups will distort badly otherwise.

Longbow

[Bob9863]

I've ordered a hundred nylon washers, one .8mm thick with a 4mm hole, one 1mm thick with an 6mm hole, I will put the small hole on the bottom and the large hole on the top like a doughnut wad, I'm hoping that gets the .690 shooting accurate or at least consistent.
I will do the same with the .662 RB and paper patch it.
But shooting the GB rifled slugs shows me that this gun loves a bore diameter slug, so the paradox slug might be the big winner.
I got a price today, I can buy 100 of the super accurate GB slugs for $180 so that's hard to beat. But I will still try casting some paradox slugs, it's just so much fun.

This is a 45 yards 3 shot group with the GB slugs and a 3 shot group with my modified Lee slugs (last version)
227896

[Blood Trail]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180930/f0e0a7af35a5cd7afd56be671f127e73.jpg

I’ve played around with them once.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob9863]

What range were you shooting at?

[longbow]

Okay, I gotta ask because I guess I missed it... are the GB Foster slugs factory loaded rounds or slugs you bought then loaded?

If factory loaded rounds then that is different.

I have had some stellar accuracy using factory loaded Foster slugs. So far I have not had such stellar accuracy using home case and loaded slugs. I have had some impressive accuracy using purchased slugs and home loading.

Its an apples and oranges thing. My take is that consistency is everything and I mean everything. The factories have total control of all components and the reloading procedure and they are using new hulls every time.

You and I are using generally once fired hulls, or more, most of the time and we do not have the same control of all components or the ability to purchase say 100,000 of the same wads, hulls, primers as the factories do.

If I could get the same level of accuracy out of my home cast and loaded slugs as I do out of factory slug loads, all the way to 100 yards, i'd be a happy camper. I am sorry to say that so far I have not been able to do that. To 50 yards, I am good. Much beyond 50 yards and that is where accuracy starts to fade with my home cast and loaded slugs.

Even if I could afford to buy all factory loaded rounds or even factory made slugs (think Brenneke Classic) I wouldn't be satisfied because I want to be able to make and load the slugs myself. I am sure it must be a genetic disorder.

If nothing else it is an obsession.

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

What range were you shooting at?

That was at 50 yards with a 590A1.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blood Trail]

Okay, I gotta ask because I guess I missed it... are the GB Foster slugs factory loaded rounds or slugs you bought then loaded?

If factory loaded rounds then that is different.

I have had some stellar accuracy using factory loaded Foster slugs. So far I have not had such stellar accuracy using home case and loaded slugs. I have had some impressive accuracy using purchased slugs and home loading.

Its an apples and oranges thing. My take is that consistency is everything and I mean everything. The factories have total control of all components and the reloading procedure and they are using new hulls every time.

You and I are using generally once fired hulls, or more, most of the time and we do not have the same control of all components or the ability to purchase say 100,000 of the same wads, hulls, primers as the factories do.

If I could get the same level of accuracy out of my home cast and loaded slugs as I do out of factory slug loads, all the way to 100 yards, i'd be a happy camper. I am sorry to say that so far I have not been able to do that. To 50 yards, I am good. Much beyond 50 yards and that is where accuracy starts to fade with my home cast and loaded slugs.

Even if I could afford to buy all factory loaded rounds or even factory made slugs (think Brenneke Classic) I wouldn't be satisfied because I want to be able to make and load the slugs myself. I am sure it must be a genetic disorder.

If nothing else it is an obsession.

Longbow

LB,

When I got the mold, they had both center pins in the box:
One for a hollow base and one one for the special tail wad.

I’ve only loaded one batch up of the hollowbase and the accuracy was eh..... I’ll go back and play around with them some more.

Since I’ve got a couple thousand of the tail wads, that’s what I used. A little Blue Dot and a roll crimp was all it took.

I used the same load data that I did when I tested those Italian slugs casted from the Russia mold. Those shot much tighter has all three shots where touching at 50 yards.

Anyway, this is how it sits with the tail wad attached.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180930/4b6f73c143d1bdd83274bb99ff4eeb84.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[longbow]

Those are a nice slug. I like the design better than the Gualandi clones but whatever works best is what a guy should be shooting. That's the Tusker clone isn't it? They all use the same base wad regardless.

What I am wondering is why they cast small as if for rifled guns rather than smoothbore. The Paradox slugs KrackenFan69 sent me are 0.727" and it seems to me I've seen more than one post saying the Russian slugs cast at 0.727". If they were to cast at 0.732" or so they should be better suited to smoothbore yet still swage down to suit tighter rifled bores. One man's opinion.

I also think the wads are a little long and should be more solid. Thinking Brenneke Classic and AQ. Again, one man's opinion.

So that brings up another question... have you ever tested Brenneke Classic or AQ slugs? I will be in the big city next weekend so if I get a chance I'll go looking for Brenneke Classic slugs. Since AQ's are available at BPI again I may order some too. I haven't seen Brenneke's in many years here. You'd be the the guy to test both!

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

Those are a nice slug. I like the design better than the Gualandi clones but whatever works best is what a guy should be shooting. That's the Tusker clone isn't it? They all use the same base wad regardless.

What I am wondering is why they cast small as if for rifled guns rather than smoothbore. The Paradox slugs KrackenFan69 sent me are 0.727" and it seems to me I've seen more than one post saying the Russian slugs cast at 0.727". If they were to cast at 0.732" or so they should be better suited to smoothbore yet still swage down to suit tighter rifled bores. One man's opinion.

I also think the wads are a little long and should be more solid. Thinking Brenneke Classic and AQ. Again, one man's opinion.

So that brings up another question... have you ever tested Brenneke Classic or AQ slugs? I will be in the big city next weekend so if I get a chance I'll go looking for Brenneke Classic slugs. Since AQ's are available at BPI again I may order some too. I haven't seen Brenneke's in many years here. You'd be the the guy to test both!

Longbow

Funny you mentioned the Brenneke Classics. I got a couple hundred Slug only that I picked up off eBay and on here. I haven’t reloaded them as they are still in the original packing.

I might just load up a few 12 and 20.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[longbow]

Well, that's someplace I haven't been looking for them, however, if it is eBay.com they wouldn't be able to ship to Canada anyway if I found any.

About 40 years ago I bought Brenneke Classic slugs for reloading and IIRC they shot pretty well but I'd really have to test again under more consistent and controlled conditions to get a true picture of accuracy. I'd like to retest AQ's too so may order some now that they are available again. The Brennekes I have not seen as reloading components or even factory loaded for many, many years but here in rural B.C. no surprise! Selection of most things is pretty limited and I can't go to Spokane to buy reloading supplies anymore... not since 9/11.

Yes, if you have some Brenneke slugs I'd love to see some range reports from smoothbore, especially from a good solid smoothbore shot off your lead sled so real slug accuracy potential.

Longbow

[Bob9863]

The paradox slug might be worth trying out after all, I will see if I can find the proper wads for them.

[Bob9863]

Okay, I gotta ask because I guess I missed it... are the GB Foster slugs factory loaded rounds or slugs you bought then loaded?

If factory loaded rounds then that is different.


They were factory slugs that I used as a benchmark to try and match with my cast slugs.

[longbow]

I thought so and not to sound discouraging but good luck! I know how undersize many factory slugs are or at least were yet they still slugged up and gave very good accuracy ~ Winchester, Remington, Federal all plain old Foster style slugs and all shot well from both my Browning BPS and my old cut down Cooey single shot. I have as yet to get the same level of accuracy from home cast and loaded rounds.

I'll say again that I think consistency is EVERYTHING! The factories have total control over hulls, wads, slugs, powder and primer and can test umpteen things before they put it to market. While they aren't perfect and don't shoot well from every gun, factory Foster slug rounds have certainly shot well in my guns all the way to 100 yards which is where I judge consistency and accuracy. In my opinion it isn't hard to get decent accuracy out to 50+ yards, it is beyond that that inconsistencies take effect and accuracy becomes "iffy" for most slug and ball loads from smoothbore.

Certainly my experience anyway.

Longbow

[Bob9863]

The main aim of this was only 50m accuracy or about 55 yards, it was about finding cheap and hard hitting ammunition for my pig trips.
I usually go through 200-400 rounds a trip in a good year and want to use the shotgun with a imp/cyl choke.
Buckshot in the thick stuff and slugs where it's a bit more open like waiting on a dam.
They will fit the bill for that task just fine, but like everything else it comes down to how far you can push things.
I also want to try some paper patched 240gn pills in the 44mag and maybe even in the 308win just to see how well they will go.
There's a lot of satisfaction in making your own pills and I'm not sure why, maybe it's a better connection with the ammunition that nakes the hunt a little more personal.
I'm also making some (or trying to anyway) cut down 303brit brass to 1.5" OAL to make some 44mag shotshells with a tad more grunt.
I'd love to take a bunny with those at 10-15 yards but I doubt 15yards will be possible.

It's all about having a little fun and being a little different.

[longbow]

That's a lot of pig shooting! Or at least shooting at pigs!

50 yard hunting level accuracy isn't too hard to get with the right slug and components so you should be okay. I'd use the round balls though. I do like the big ol round balls!

I tried paper patching for my .44 mag. Marlin. Worked very well but I found it wasn't needed so didn't pursue it. It did work though and no feeding issue in the Marlin.

I had excellent results with the paper patching I did for my .308 but not so good with the .303's. however, I used the same 0.301" cast slug for the .303's and that makes it about 0.002" to 0.003" under bore diameter for .303 Lee Enfield. Generally the recommended diameter of the "core" is bore size to a little over bore size. I tried knurling them up to 0.304" and that helped but I really didn't spend much time at it. There are some good threads on paper patching for smokeless here if you search for them. These guys know what they are doing!

Good luck and enjoy!

Longbow

[Bob9863]

Will do, seeing as I can only hunt deer with a single solid projectile here was my only real reason for working at it so hard, truth be told Buckshot and a turkey choke would probably be plenty enough for what I want on pigs.
The place I go is a bit over a million acres, the drought has hurt the pig numbers there and last trip I only got about 30-35 but in a good year shooting 100 or more is pretty easy.
But a university slug load for pigs and deer would be very handy as when I go fox shooting I often come across deer, last time I took the 22lr out I had a 30" stag feeding in a gully about 60 yards from me, man I wish I'd taken the 308 that day.
But if I can drop a slug in 12ga and know it's accurate then I won't have that problem again.

I got a young Sambar calf today with the dog while taking her for a walk that would have been perfect for the 12ga, 30m standing strait on with big old mum 60m up the hill, and that was in a spot I love to fox whistle.
While it would be much easier just to buy factory slugs for that sort of situation there is something about the thought of throwing something I made from scratch at them that feels so satisfying just thinking about it.
I got one big Hind at 40m with a 690 round ball from the coach gun and it definitely hit her had, so maybe your right about that.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bob: Where do you live? You don't sound like you're in the US cuz we don't have that many stags or hinds here.

Randy

[Bob9863]

Australia, right in the heart of some great deer country, no season or bag limits either. :happy dance: