Is 1.25 oz = to 1.25 oz? A Shot vs. Slug Question

[Ironduke]

I have the Lyman 525gr slug mold that I just received. As cast, my slugs weigh right at 500 gr due to the alloy used, of course. My scale says that is 1.14oz, so actually less than 1 1/4oz. If I find data that matches the components I have on hand for 1.25 oz loads of shot, is it safe to drop a slug in the wad rather than the shot? I will be using the Lee Loader that puts a star crimp on the hulls because I haven't purchased a roll crimp tool yet.

I understand that generally slugs offer lower pressure than shot due to smaller bearing surface. I'm not looking to hot rod loads or anything. I just want something that shoots better than the lee 1oz slug load I've been using. Plus, I like the wide meplat of the Lyman slug, and I can see it being more authoritative on game than the round nose Lee.

BTW, load with the Lee slug is Win 209 primers in Win AA hulls (the silver ones) 44 gr of Blue Dot, Win 12R wads(actually Claybuster replacements for the Win 12R), 2ea 20ga nitro cards under the slug, and a star crimp. The 2 nitro cards bring the slug up even or slightly in front of the top of the wad petals. Accuracy improved a lot by adding these. Mossberg 590A1 smooth bore, cylinder bore. 5- 6 inch groups at 50 yards with ghost ring sights is the best these will do.

[gds45]

Yes you can. It is true that a slug creates a lower pressure than an equal weight of shot.
I have dumped out 1 oz of shot and replaced it with a 1 oz slug on numerous occasions.
The powder weight is set to push a certain weight (or Mass) out of the barrel and doesn't know or care what form that mass is.
:bigsmyl2:

[Hogtamer]

Star crimp is fine and you will do better overfilling the cavity with hot glue, let it set and trim flush with a sharp hot blade. A straight wall wad like trap commander is a good snug snap fit in the bottom of the wad and height is perfect. If you're using 12R replacement for this the wad is going to seat too deep in the hull and your crimp will likely cave. If so use a card on top of the slug for good crimp. Just come off the powder charge a couple of grains to start, but a card on top likely gets your
total weight close enough to 1 1/4 to be fine.

[toallmy]

I do that with a lot of backyard slugs , I don't load them heavy I am using Herco powder .

[MT Chambers]

You should not try to mix loads, Lyman provides slug data with their slug molds, use it and don't substitute any components, their is plenty of slug data out there, use it verbatim, don't substitute hull brand, wad, primer, powder.

[RangerDan]

My Lyman slug mold cast flat nose, hollow base slugs that resemble overgrown air rifle pellets that weigh with my alloy 470 grains. I shoot them in a Rem 1100 slug gun with rifled barrel. To date my best load consists of Rem. low brass black hulls, 43 grains of Blue Dot powder, a Win. WAA12F114 wad with the 470 grain slug topped with a 8 point folded crimp. At the range they will hold a 2 inch group at slightly over 1500 fps.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My Standard Round Ball Load is also my Standard Trap Load. It is an old style AA hull with 20 gr of Green Dot, Win 209 and WAA12 wad with either 1 1/8 oz of shot, or a .662 round ball with a 1/4" felt wad or 9 00 balls.

The shot column is the same on all three and the crimp closes perfectly. I load on the same machine with no changes to the Trap Load,,, only the payload.

Around 1100-1150 FPS so this is not a hot load by any means. This is my 3 gun load and it works with shot, buck or ball, and knocks over or pokes holes in targets just fine. I use Silver AA hulls for Balls, Red AA Hulls for shot, and Green STS Hulls for Buck. All in the same setup on the machine.

These hulls have typically been reloaded 6-7 times. So when they get long in the tooth I make them into ammo to be used where I can't easily recover the hulls.(IE: 3 gun shoot.) When shooting Trap or Skeet I usually have a bag on my belt and the hulls come out of the gun and go directly into the bag for reloading. This is standard practice in those games.

Only thing that changes is not dropping shot into Ball or Buck loads on the machine. Charged and wadded hulls get the payload inserted off the machine and then the crimp is placed by the machine. I load these on a Pacific DL-266 Single Stage Loader. You could do the same thing with a MEC.

Once again keep in mind these are not Full Power Loads they are low pressure in the 8-9000 psi range. Very mild recoil.

Randy

[toallmy]

I have found it much more pleasant to not run slug loads maxed out all the time also , 1100-1300 fps don't kill on the back end of the shotgun . I load rounds that I would hunt with differently. I remember trying out 4 - 5 round boxes of Remington 12 gage 3 in copper solids out of a light 12 gage pump just to see how they would do out of my rifled barrel and adjust the scope a bit off a bench , all I can say is WOW I had a headache , a flinch , + a bruised shoulder . I can take recoil pretty good but I decided it just wasn't worth it to me . I was mistaken when I said copper solids my last adventure was with the new accutip slugs .

[Hogtamer]

^^^^ This is why accuracy is sometimes elusive. Knowing you're gonna be punished combined with typical shotgun triggers is hardly condusive to repeatability. A lot of the data suggested for the Lee and Lyman slugs will kick your teeth out. Not to mention the full bore stuff. Max velocity does not neccessarily assure maximum accuracy either. The energy inherent in big lead loads is more than enough to pass through any medium sized game like deer and hogs. I finally realized I don't get points for how far a lead projectile penetrates a pine tree after is has gone through an animal!

[bikerbeans]

The BC of a 12ga slug is so poor that you have very little gain in MPBR once you get past about 1,300 fps MV. I am talking fullbore or almost fullbore slugs, not pistol bullets hiding inside plastic.

BB

[toallmy]

A 525 gr cast slug over a reasonable change of herco is about all I want to shoot anymore .

[W.R.Buchanan]

When you consider just how powerful a 1 oz (437gr) slug that is traveling at 1300 fps is and compare it to other calibers you will surprised, like I was, just how a 12 ga stacks up against a .45-70 or .375 H&H or even a .458 Win Mag.

The Taylor Knock Out Formula,,, is a simple method of comparison, and is a good way to look at and compare the relative power of different cartridges. It tends to favor larger calibers, and there is a reason for this, but even so, it is still a useful comparison.

The TKO Formula is,,, bullet weight in grains x velocity x diameter/7000

TKO for a 12 ga 1 oz (437gr.)slug at 1300 fps is 59.6! A .45-70 400 gr at 1800 fps is 47.1 A 375 H&H 300 gr at 2700 fps is only 43.3!

For comparison on the high side a .458 Win Mag 500 gr at 2150 fps has a TKO of 70.3,,, but I have Federal 2 3/4" Maximum Slugs on hand that are running at 1610 fps which yield a TKO of 73.8! There are 3 and 3.5" Magnum 12 ga factory loads that far exceed even these. I don't know anyone who can shoot more than one of these in any given season!

So yes a 12 ga Shotgun is capable of taking any game animal on earth as well as some light trucks.

Where these guns make their head way against rifle calibers is in the diameter of the projectile. Bigger projectiles transfer more energy to a target than smaller ones do. It is School Bus Versus VW in alot of cases, or Train versus Car and we know who wins that match up every single time! This is why the TKO comparison favors larger calibers.

My whole point of this is to make others aware of just how much power they are wielding, and to point out that they don't always need all of that power. You don't need head rattling loads to knock down a steel target or punch holes in paper. You also don't need them to knock down a deer or a pig.

Big Bears,,, sure! Why not?

A 12 ga Shotgun is one of the most common weapons in existence. It was surprising to me how much power I had in my hands. Most still don't have a clue.

Randy

[bikerbeans]

The lack of penetration would make any factory 12ga slug i know of a poor choice for dangerous African game.

BB

[Hogtamer]

Randy, I do believe you are officially hooked! Now I'm looking for a Buchanan version of the lee load-all....
BB, right about factory loads. The 'rifled' slugs off the shelf turn into 50 cent pieces against a hard target. On the other hand, there are Zlugs!

[Blood Trail]

That’s exactly why I recommend anyone doing slug load work ups to invest in a Caldwell lead sled.

If any of y’all ever seen my YouTube vids, everything I shoot while testing is done off the sled. That really sucks up the recoil and gives you an absolute look of true accuracy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JBinMN]

Just thought I would share this link here, since Mr Buchanan mentioned the Taylor KO scale.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

This calculator will give you the info about the Taylor KnockOut ranking as well as muzzle energy & momentum, If anyone is interested in that type of thing. Myself... I have it bookmarked.
;)

It is also useful to compare loads side by side.

Hope ya'll may find it useful as well.
:)

[W.R.Buchanan]

JB: Thanks for the link and I added it to my bookmarked data as well.

As far as taking Dangerous Game, A shotgun wouldn't be my first choice for Elephants, Buffalo or Hippos however it would be for big cats over bait. Not that I will ever get to do that.

I have long maintained that a Pump or Semi Auto Shotgun with a Red Dot Sight would be the ideal choice for that type of shooting where ranges were under 50 yards and fast follow up shoots were possibly needed/necessary.

I'd probably be using those Federal Maximum Slugs in those cases and just suffer thru the aftermath.

I have an old Browning A5 that I have been going to cut down and install Rifle Sights on for some time. This may be the time to actually do that. I have pictured myself in a Leopard Blind during many of the TV programs with Leopard Hunts, and I always marvel at those who feel it is necessary to have a .416 Rigby for a 250-300 lb cat.

With the heavy rifle the bullet will be going all the way thru, and most of it's energy will be going right thru with it.. It seems to me that less penetration with more "frontal area" would be a more efficient means to do that job.

Maybe that's just me?

Randy

Hogtamer: I'll get right on that! I think the LNL Hand Press can be made to do it?

[longbow]

The lack of penetration would make any factory 12ga slug i know of a poor choice for dangerous African game.

BB

BB... I'll agree that most if not all soft rifled slugs would be a poor choice but Brenneke, Gualandi DGS and likely a few others are hard cast so should be just fine. A hard cast round ball would do well too. A big meplat is generally the recommended way to go but a 12 ga. hard cast ball at 1400/1500 FPS is going to do a lot of damage.

Having said that I think slug manufacturers should state on the box what game the slug is suited for. As Randy says, slug loads are powerful! They pack energy, momentum and frontal area in large doses each but if the slug is a thin soft Foster it is not going to penetrate well so is more like a varmint bullet than a big game bullet. I have read posts from people saying that soft Foster slugs have expanded so much they did not penetrate properly in a deer. Yes, I've also read about pass throughs and devastating terminal performance but I know how fragile the thin soft Foster slugs are so I wouldn't trust them against large toothy/tusky animals for hunting or defense.

Here is some interesting reading if you haven't seen it:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

I actually saw that video when it was posted over at Calguns when I mentioned I had birdshot in my HD gun, I got called everything but a "white man."

Lots of good info there but I still maintain that a load of #8's in the face at 5 yards is going to kill you! It was surprising how many over there have no clue, and kept referring to the video shots which produced only 4-6" of penetration in the Jello. However in your face you only need about 2" to get to your brain thru your eyeballs so that argument is BS!

Point being, nobody is going to live thru being shot directly in the face at close range with a 12 ga., even with skeet loads.

But after reevaluating my property and figuring out where the shooting would be directed at,,, I figured I'd be better off with 00 Buck in the gun and Slugs on the Side Saddle.

Randy

[longbow]

No argument there Randy. I think most people choose loads that will over penetrate at close quarters. A load of birdshot in the chest much less the face is going to do a lot of damage across a room and with little chance of endangering someone in another room... or the neighbours!

I'd say most buckshot and slug loads would produce over penetration for inside the house use though subsonic or at least reduced loads should be okay.

My main reason for posting that link was to show the Brenneke test near the end. Some good comments there. A Brenneke I'd use for bear defense without hesitation. A typical soft Foster slug, not likely.

Yeah, people are pretty lightly built so it doesn't take a lot to do some damage. Fine birdshot may not get through heavy clothing well but I'd bet any size buckshot would do the job. At such close range spread shouldn't be a consideration or much of one anyway. Even just the mass impact of birdshot should put a bad guy down whether it got enough penetration to kill or not. Bears are a different matter! I think the best buckshot for bears would be a Tri-Ball load. That would be a bit much for a bad guy inside a house I think...

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: My Vang Comped barrel on my Tac Gun patterns #8 birdy into 7" at 15 yards! That is half what it was originally

00 Buck is 7" at 25 yards. Again, half of what the stock barrel did. With a notable decrease in perceived recoil.

And you've seen what the slugs will do. The barrel mods really made that gun!

The show on TV called "Polar Bear Town" about the Bear Guides in Churchill had every Guide carrying a 18" shotgun.(Mostly 870's) They never really stated if they used Slugs or Buckshot, but I think it would probably be a little of both.

Getting within 100 yards of one of those critters would scare me to death. I'd probably be running backwards for the truck!

Polar Bears are way up the food chain from even the biggest Vancouver Island Black Bears. But I saw a story once of a guy who was trapped on the ice with a bear hunting him and finally killed it with a snub nosed 38, real up close and personal.

Not for the faint of heart.

Randy

[gpidaho]

I totally agree with Bloodtrail when he said "Get a Lead Sled". Only took me my first slug and Buckshot outing and a load that put me on one knee with watering eyes to send me to the Lead Sled store. There were a couple days there I thought I might have done heart or lung damage. Funny now but not at the moment. Getting the heavy barrel NEF was another plus for shooting heavy loads. Night and day different than my light 12ga. break barrel. For those loads that are only marginally better behind than in front of a "Sled" is the ticket. Gp