reproduce a Factory 38 Special 200gr load ?

[Chill Wills]

Long ago there was a 38 Special 200gr load that may have been trying to copy the British revolver. I am not sure if that is the origin or not.
I would like to try to load some Lyman 358 430 200 gr RN for my two Smiths. I have a little data, Bullseye, Unique and IMR 4227 and a few others in the Lyman #45 guide.

Do any of you have experience with this kind of load?
I am NOT looking for earthquake - muzzle blast performance but rather a mild pleasing thud.

Yesterday I tried 10 loaded with 3 grains of HP-38. They were fine and shot about 4" high at 25 yards in my fixed sight Smith M-10

What do you think should be the next load?

[ShooterAZ]

I have an old 1990 load manual for Hercules powder, note: NOT Alliant. They list 3.0gr Bullseye@ 760FPS, 2.8gr Red Dot@ 725FPS, 3.1 Green Dot@ 750FPS, 3.6gr Unique@780FPS, 3.8gr Herco@785 FPS, 5.3gr Blue Dot@850FPS, and lastly 7.0gr 2400@870FPS. This is all 38 Special data with a 200 grain lead RN bullet. These are MAX recommended loads, use at your own risk!

[texasnative46]

Chill Wills,

The old-school 200 grain lead boolit at >750FPS is definitely A KILLER.
(When I was a young deputy with the SD, that was the standard load that was issued to our street deputies for the department-issue Colt's Official Police revolvers. - The "old guys" thought it was FUNNY to send me, as the "young college kid" to as many autopsies as possible. = They didn't know that I spent a good portion of my boyhood/teenaged years at a funeral home.)
Only the bodies of little kids, "floaters" & burn victims bother me a LOT.

A round into the K5 area is MUCH more destructive than most people would guess, as the heavy/long for diameter bullet tumbles inside the torso, expends all of the energy therein & "makes a real mess".

For self-defense, I like the 200 grain SWC in front of 3.5 grains of Unique.

yours, tex

[Char-Gar]

The British 200 grain load you spoke of is a 38 S&W round and not 38 Special. There was a 200 grain blunt round nose 200 grain lead bullet load in the 38 Special that was called (I think) a Super Police Load.

Frankly these heavy blunt nose 38 Special loads don't have much going for them. I do use for house defense a 220 grain full wadcutter 38 Special load. I really don't know if they are any better in actual use than a 150 grain full wadcutter as either will sail through an ordinary human being.

[Outpost75]

I have a similar load using 3 grains of Bullseye in the .38 Special or 2.2 grains in the .38 S&W,

but I use the Accurate 36-190T flatnosed bullet

227546 which is both more accurate and more effective.

[Drm50]

I have two boxes of Winchester 200gr 38sp with lead bullet. From box I would say they are from the
70s or 80s. I have never shot any bullets this heavy in a 38. I might try them in a m27 just for grins.

[country gent]

I loaded a 207 grn bullet in 357 or my wife to use for bowling pins, wasn't a full magnum load but a nice load that did really well taking pins off the table. Bullet was barely stable and when it hit it tumbled transferring much more energy. These fell between 38 spl and full house magnum loads

[RED BEAR]

if memory serves me right the original british load ( they called it a man stopper ) was a 38 sw with 200 grain bullet at 600+ fps. this is very easy to duplicate in 38 special. and heard from another member on here who was a detective or something like that that said these type rounds were very effective. i really like them thought they might have a lot of recoil but were surprisingly mild when shot from a snub nose rossi. i was loading to stated velocity of a little over 700 fps. i really liked these loads and were very accurate. used red dot and unique for them.

[texasnative46]

Char-Gar,

Fyi, the British, due to a pre-war shortage of firearms, received/used a lot of BOTH .38 S&W & .38 SPL Colt's & S&W revolvers, under Lend-Lease. = SOME were US Armed Forces revolvers (Like the Colt's Commando) & OTHERS were "commercial buys" that were the same as the usual civilian-type Colt & S&W revolvers of that era.

YES, the .38spl 200grain load was called: the .38 Super Police.
(The UK Home Guard received/used a lot of the .38 SPL "Super Police" LRN ammo, too.)

Note: Because of lead bullets being unacceptable for wartime use, the Brits changed the lead 200 grain bullet for a 173 FMJ bullet, in both .38 S&W & in .38 SPL.

yours, tex

[Outpost75]

Here are photos:

227590227592227593

[jonp]

I tried some 175gr with Unique using a load I found in the Lymans 1958 Cast Bullet Handbook as well as a Blue Dot load using a similar bullet and although they worked, I found them to be dirty enough that I won't revisit that with powder in that burn range. Some other powder may work better.

[texasnative46]

To All,

Fwiw, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol & OSBI years ago used a 220grain LHP at about 800FPS out of their .357MAG S&W 4" Model 28 revolvers, which they described as "very effective".

yours, tex

[reddog81]

Any .38 Special load data is probably going to hit high with that bullet. Large bullets are going to be moving slower, and slow bullets are going to be in the barrel longer while the gun is recoiling, therefore they'll hit higher.

[fjruple]

I found these bullets to be very effective in short barrel .38 special revolvers. I have cast my bullet with a NOE MKI 200 gr blunt nose bullet. I found that with 2.5 grains of 700X they will start to tumble on immediate impact with a cardboard target. I tested these rounds at 10 yards into a cardboard target with another cardboard target 5 yards behind the first. The rounds do indeed tumble on impact. A main torso shot will not be a through and through shot and will stay in the body.

[Gray Fox]

Has anyone tried the Lee 358 200 RF designed for the .35 Rem? It looks like it would come close to duplicating that OK Highway Patrol load, but with the more effective RNFP profile? If so, what load did you use? What load do you think would deliver the 800 fps from a 4" Smith? I have a new 5" 8-shot 627 that would make a good platform for such a load. GF

[9.3X62AL]

Thanks to Outpost75 for showing the photos of the 38 "Super Police" loadings above. These are my first views of the cartridge. I now also see where Lyman #358-430 (195 grain RN) got its inspiration.

#358-430 was one of my first mould purchases back in 1981. I have given it considerable use, and in 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers it has been quite accurate--sufficiently so to whack jackrabbits and a few coyotes with good effect. In 38 Special at 700 FPS, the critters show ragged exit wounds that may indicate bullet-tumbling. The 38 S&W/NEI #169A combination at about the same velocity shows similar indicia. The 357 slugs (running between 1000 and 1200 FPS) appear to drive straight-through, though this observation has a small sampling population--~20 or so. (Winchester's load data for WW-296 of 12.4 grains under a 200 grain lead bullet produces 1180-1220 FPS in my Ruger Bishawk's 7.5" barrel, and just under 1100 FPS in my 686 x 4". FWIW.

[Livin_cincy]

Western Powders has Load Data for 230 grain WC bullets by Badman & Penn bullets.

The Penn Website has load data for loading 357.

You end up shooting a bullet the weight of a 45 ACP but elongated and more likely to tumble on impact.

[Chill Wills]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond! There is some interesting information here.

ShooterAZ especially good of you to take the time to post these additional Hercules loads. I have two Hercules LGS counter hand outs from 1980 and 1981 and 170grs bullet is as heavy as they listed so it is great to have your info.

My Lyman No.45 manual has some hotter loads maybe. 4.1grs of unique with the 358430 and 9 or 9.5grs of 2400. and about the same amount of IMR-4227.227607

The look of 200 grain RN loaded up does take you by surprise or did me.

I have loaded a few more sample loads with 3.3grs of Hecro and 3.2grs of Unique as well as 3.8 grs of Unique. I did not want to try the Lyman full max load of 4.1 grs of Unique at this point/ I am not looking for more power but rather to see if I can regulate the impact on the model 10. The pictured revolver is my old M-67 and has adjustable sights. Neather handgun is rated for much +P. (Neather either ????? How do you spell neether? :p)

[376Steyr]

"Neither". The English, she is a funny language as she is spoke, and even stranger as she is wrote.

[Chill Wills]

Thanks. n either came up with a red line so I guess spell check misses it sometimes too.

[Bigslug]

I was trying to duplicate the British .38 load with that bullet.

In a .357 case and a 2" barrel, 3.2 grains of Unique chronoed at 561 fps, and 3.6 grains at 635fps. Unfortunately, that was in my early casting days, so I couldn't accurately tell you what they were for hardness (probably about 12BHN), but fortunately I was able to shoot a calibrated FBI-spec Jell-O block with both - the 18" of gelatin wasn't an obstacle; the hard rubber backer was what stopped them.

[Eascu]

Metallic Cartridge Reloading 2nd edition lists 200 grain cast. 700X max 3 gr, 7625 max 3.5, 4756 max 4.3, 231 max 3.8, 800X max 4.6 for 38 Special. For 357, 700X 4.3, 7625 5.1, 4756 6.2, 4227 12.5, 231 5.5, HP38 4.2, H4227 12.0, 800X 7.5 max. I'm using 4 grains of HP38 under the Lee mold in 357 and I'm really happy with it in my Marlin lever action.


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[RED BEAR]

yes i actually do use the lee 200gr for the 35 REMINGTON. they shoot great it surprised me at the mild recoil out of a rossi snub nose.

[Groo]

Groo here
The trick to the 200gr bullets is to keep them SLOW......
If you speed them up the barrel twist increases the RPM's to the point that the bullet
will not yaw , and instead just drill through.
The bullet is very soft so will not go through a car door etc. well.
Take the same weight bullet in hard cast and speed up the rpms and it will go through both doors.

[beagle]

I did some work years back with the 200 grain bullet in the .38 Special for the old 200 grain "Police load". Check castpics/Cast in the .38 Special./beagle

[smkummer]

My Lyman No.45 manual has some hotter loads maybe. 4.1grs of unique with the 358430 and 9 or 9.5grs of 2400. and about the same amount of IMR-4227.

I have loaded this warmer 2400 load for my colt E medium frames ( official police/ officers model/original trooper). This is a stout powerful load in the power range of 40 S&W with maybe better penetration if needed. The bullets almost protrude from the cylinder which has to look intimidating from the wrong end. In the 4” trooper 38, it feels just right.

[JoeJames]

The British 200 grain load you spoke of is a 38 S&W round and not 38 Special. There was a 200 grain blunt round nose 200 grain lead bullet load in the 38 Special that was called (I think) a Super Police Load.

Frankly these heavy blunt nose 38 Special loads don't have much going for them. I do use for house defense a 220 grain full wadcutter 38 Special load. I really don't know if they are any better in actual use than a 150 grain full wadcutter as either will sail through an ordinary human being.That is a very interesting boolit - 200 grain is getting up close to the weight of a 44 Special, and the meplat is wider than the meplat of a Keith type 240 grain 44 Special Semi-Wadcutter.

[Hi-Speed]

Chronographed 3.5 grs Unique and 198 gr Magnus blunt round nose (has same profile as WW 200 gr Super Police bullet) in my S&W 642 1 7/8 inch barrel - avg velocity was approx. 575 FPS. This is approximately the same velocity achieved by others with the WW Super Police factory load in snub nose revolvers.

[Texas by God]

I remember an old Dean Grennel article where they shot a junk car with the Western 200 gr .38Special loads from a snub nose revolver. It wouldn't break the glass and just left divots in the door. Someone present quipped "Halt- or I'll scratch your paint!"

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[onelight]

:goodpost::2_high5::2_high5:
I remember an old Dean Grennel article where they shot a junk car with the Western 200 gr .38Special loads from a snub nose revolver. It wouldn't break the glass and just left divots in the door. Someone present quipped "Halt- or I'll scratch your paint!"

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[Bigslug]

Edit: It's ALIIIIIIVE!

[9.3X62AL]

Erik--don't say "Zombie Thread Repost" like it's a bad thing.

The late Bruce Bannister kind of wondered aloud at what I was doing with the old British 38/200 rounds when I was messing about with NEI #169A at 675 FPS from the Webley-Enfield and the S&W M&P. He had seen some results of RCMP gunfire with those rounds against a fleeing carload of robbery suspects, and the bullets just ricocheted from the slanted windshields and rear windows of the suspect vehicles. Not real reassuring, that.

The 200 grain bullets take on real life when fired in a 357 Magnum revolver or rifle, though. Lyman #358430 is VERY accurate, and if cast as a soft point I would take it deer hunting without hesitation--and have done so. The deer didn't cooperate much. The 180-200 grain+ bullet weights in 357 Magnum REALLY change the game afield.

[pettypace]

Has anyone tried the Lee 358 200 RF designed for the .35 Rem? It looks like it would come close to duplicating that OK Highway Patrol load, but with the more effective RNFP profile? If so, what load did you use? What load do you think would deliver the 800 fps from a 4" Smith? I have a new 5" 8-shot 627 that would make a good platform for such a load. GF

I've loaded a handful of the Lee 358 200 RF for testing in a J-frame snubby. Shot them as cast, no GC, and tumbled in liquid alox. I started with 2.8 of RedDot which averaged 535 ft/s and ended with a stiff load of (old) Unique at 628 ft/s. (Hatcher cites 623 ft/s from a snubby for the original factory Super Police load).

I didn't shoot beyond 10 yards. But at that range, both loads shot high, with "adequate" accuracy and obvious tipping on the paper.

I got a chance to fire two of the Unique loads into a block of calibrated Clear Ballistic gel. The first shot veered off up and left and exited the gel at a depth of about 12", The second shot also veered off in the same direction, flipped ends, and stopped base-forward at 13" of penetration.

Without tumbling, predicted penetration of that bullet, even at just 600 ft/s, is about 30". So flipping end for end took a lot of steam out of it. How that translates into self defense effectiveness, I don't know.

I also don't know just what that bullet would do at 800 ft/s. It it straightens out and doesn't tumble it should penetrate plenty. Probably make a big mess if it still tumbles.

[FergusonTO35]

The late Bruce Bannister kind of wondered aloud at what I was doing with the old British 38/200 rounds when I was messing about with NEI #169A at 675 FPS from the Webley-Enfield and the S&W M&P. He had seen some results of RCMP gunfire with those rounds against a fleeing carload of robbery suspects, and the bullets just ricocheted from the slanted windshields and rear windows of the suspect vehicles. Not real reassuring, that.



What I have to wonder about, is most of the .38-200's bad reputation due to the FMJ rounds that were actually used against the enemy? It takes more energy to push a jacketed slug down the bore than a boolit, meaning that the FMJ probably lost alot of the already modest velocity when fired in the .38 S&W. Add in possibly generous barrel-cylinder gaps, and you have a recipe for failure. Does anyone know if the Canadian police were using commercial .38-200 ammo, or old milsurp FMJ? I would think the latter.

[Outpost75]

The 620 fps from a .38 S&W snubby with 2.2 of Bullseye is a good number. I load my Colt a bit warmer than that, but don't shoot it alot with that load. Accurate 36-190T cast 1:40 tin-lead.

239528239529

[Larry Gibson]

I shot myself once with the Remington "Man Stopper" 200 gr police load.........back in the day Richard Davis of Second Chance vests provided numerous test swatches of the Kevlar material to me to test prior to purchase of vests for our PD. I was testing different ammunition from different handguns at 3 feet from the muzzle. The test patches were taped to a bundle of magazines 12" thick. All was going well until I shot the 200 gr 38 SPL load from a 2" M10 S&W. The bullet did not penetrate a single layer of Kevlar and bounced back and hit me.......didn't even break the skin.......I haven't been too enthusiastic with a 200 gr 38 SPL load since........

[pettypace]

I shot myself once with the Remington "Man Stopper" 200 gr police load.........back in the day Richard Davis of Second Chance vests provided numerous test swatches of the Kevlar material to me to test prior to purchase of vests for our PD. I was testing different ammunition from different handguns at 3 feet from the muzzle. The test patches were taped to a bundle of magazines 12" thick. All was going well until I shot the 200 gr 38 SPL load from a 2" M10 S&W. The bullet did not penetrate a single layer of Kevlar and bounced back and hit me.......didn't even break the skin.......I haven't been too enthusiastic with a 200 gr 38 SPL load since........

You didn't by any chance try a full-blast 38/44 Keith bullet did you? I'd be interested to know if that would break the skin. And if so, on which side of the Kevlar.

[Larry Gibson]

You didn't by any chance try a full-blast 38/44 Keith bullet did you? I'd be interested to know if that would break the skin. And if so, on which side of the Kevlar.

Not that I recall, but I did test several +P 38 SPLs and many different 357 Magnum rounds including my own "old" 357 magnum loads; a 125 Winchester HP at 1600+ fps and the 358156 at 1400+ fps. They would penetrate (actually just spread the Kevlar strands and meld into them usually not more than half way through) a bit but only the "Man Stopper" bounced off! The so called Teflon "cop killers", because they supposedly would penetrate vests, did not penetrate the 2nd Chance vests completely. Even Keith's load of 22 gr 2400 under the 429421 at 1400 fps out of a 6" M29 failed to penetrate completely.....sure would have hurt like heck though as it was the only load that knocked the bundle of magazines off the bench........

There was only 2 rounds out of handguns that penetrated the vest patches at all; the pointed 357 magnum armor piercing round and the 22 Magnum solid. Both of those poked out the backside of the test swatch about 1/6" so they might have "broke skin".

[RedHawk357Mag]

I wonder if anyone could possibly give me some information about this 3585430 bullet. I am looking for bullet seating depth. Length of cartridge plus length of projectile minus loaded cartridge overall length. Thank you. The 200 grain version.

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[LIMPINGJ]

Larry I tried to send you a PM but says your mailbox is full.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry I tried to send you a PM but says your mailbox is full.

My bad.....hard to keep it empty.......please send again.

[charlie b]

In the old days my father-in-law and I did a lot of bullet testing. Most of the hollow points in those days rarely expanded after going through a couple of layers of denim. And kevlar did stop just about everything. My FIL did make a solid copper pointed bullet for the .357 that would penetrate. But it made a really small hole in the ballistic medium, and not very deep. The most reliable expanding bullets back then were the Winchester Silvertips. Even after two layers of denim they would still expand nicely. Even worked after motorcycle jacket leather. Not sure if today's Silvertips are the same level of performance (they might be better).

These days I don't do a lot of testing so I rely on Hornady's Critical Duty stuff. Meets FBI standards. Critical Defense if you don't feel the need to shoot at someone behind a windshield :)

[Bigslug]

In the old days my father-in-law and I did a lot of bullet testing. Most of the hollow points in those days rarely expanded after going through a couple of layers of denim. And kevlar did stop just about everything. My FIL did make a solid copper pointed bullet for the .357 that would penetrate. But it made a really small hole in the ballistic medium, and not very deep. The most reliable expanding bullets back then were the Winchester Silvertips. Even after two layers of denim they would still expand nicely. Even worked after motorcycle jacket leather. Not sure if today's Silvertips are the same level of performance (they might be better).


It does depend greatly on which Silvertip you're talking about. Expansion was never their problem - sufficient penetration was. . . usually owing to fragile construction and lack of mass. The old 9mm 115 grainer was the "poster child" for insufficient penetration after '86 Miami. The 110 grain .38 was in the same category, & I'd be real nervous using the .32 and .380 versions in place of good old flat nosed FMJ's. Never did try the .45 185, but I'd be concerned about pancaking and lack of depth on that one too.

I've gel tested recent production 145 grain .357 out of both 2.25" and 4" - a bit over 14" and a pretty mushroom for the snubby; a bit over 15" with a jacket shed on the 4". The 175 grain 10mm of 25 years ago was impressive - 3-4 gallon water jugs (about typical for current top-end duty loads) with a tabletop-flat .75" caliber expansion. Those two at least are winners.

[Groo]

Groo here
An interesting gentleman that one...
Saw him at a Cop shop and he explained how the vest works and why [ can't tell].
The blunt force spec was developed so other makers could compete , He was that far ahead......

[beagle]

I started out back in the 60s with a Lyman 35875 loaded in .38 Special cases in a Model 10 M&P. Results were disappointing. Necessarily low velocities, point of impact high. Dropped that project. Later on I acquired a Model 19 Smith snub in .357 and a box of the Western 200 grain police loads. They shot very nice at ranges around 50 yards. Later, I acquitted a 358430 and researched the data on the "Police Load" and duplicated the velocity. It turned out to be a very nice load in my .357s but you can only use so many carry rounds so I keep a few on hand and went back to the old standby 358429HP loads for general use.
Its a good carry/house load but the performance is weak for a general, all purpose load./beagle