Benefits for doing transfers for foreign nationals

[Xringshooter]

I am located just a few miles from the Penn State University main campus (University Park) and I am pretty well known by the foreign national students as the gun dealer who will take the time to do firearms transfers for them. They come into the US on an F1 visa which allows them to get a hunting license and to buy firearms.

I make a some money on the transfers and/or special orders (and they aren't afraid to spend dad's money). Then when they graduate, many times they come back to me to sell the guns they bought (on consignment), or to do a private party transfer, or to sell outright to me.

Just had one of these happen, student has graduated, is leaving the state in less than two weeks so was looking to sell his Glock (G-19 Gen 4, 3 magazines, hard case with everything that came originally, 1 extra Glock 32 round magazine, and a Glock branded soft carrying case.)

I did the transfer to him originally in mid Dec. 2014 and by the looks of it has never been shot (no wear on the feed ramp, no wear on the magazines, can still see the original grease from the factory when you remove the slide). Many times them getting firearms is sort of a "status" symbol or something like that but I do have a few that are really serious about the firearms they buy and shoot, but apparently not this time.

We talked a bit and consignment was out, he wanted to sell it as quickly as possible. He said make him an offer. I told him I'd give him $250 right now. He accepted!! I paid him and he and his girl friend left.

I think I did ok.

I think I am going to Cerakote it a two tone color and then decide if I want to sell it or not.

[Brad Phillips]

Bought back an unfired pistol at a lowball rate. Twice the money on one gun? Good job?

[dougader]

Yes it was a good deal. Graduate took the deal and the dealer has enough room to make a profit and stay in business another day. It's the American way.

It gets my goat when people begrudge your right to make a profit while they do their jobs and get paid. I've had attorneys try to talk me into a lower price when I was selling them guns at - literally - $25 over my cost. NEW guns. So it's ok for them to bill out their clients at $250 - $400 an hour, but I can't get $25 for a special order and all the paperwork for my little business?

[choctaw]

Yes it was a good deal. Graduate took the deal and the dealer has enough room to make a profit and stay in business another day. It's the American way.

It gets my goat when people begrudge your right to make a profit while they do their jobs and get paid. I've had attorneys try to talk me into a lower price when I was selling them guns at - literally - $25 over my cost. NEW guns. So it's ok for them to bill out their clients at $250 - $400 an hour, but I can't get $25 for a special order and all the paperwork for my little business?

So you never try to negotiate for services/goods you need? Or is it just irritating when someone does it to you?

[Xringshooter]

Wow, didn't really expect it to go this direction.

Here's some background info I maybe should have included but didn't feel the need to as the post was a bit tongue in cheek about how some of the "well to do" people who come to the US operate:

This customer purchased the gun on line (Bud's Gun Shop.com) and had it shipped to me to do the background check/transfer, I did not sell him the gun originally so I didn't "buy back" the gun (so to speak). For the work involved I charged him my normal $20 transfer fee. Of that $20, the state of PA gets $2 so I net $18 for paperwork, etc. that takes, for the foreign nationals, about 1/2 hr. I do not charge any storage fees for the time I receive the firearm until it is picked up or for taking the time to explain how the gun operates, how to use the magazine loading tool, how to take it apart to clean it, how to (in MANY cases) to SHOOT THE GUN. If they are a first time gun owner, they also leave with a packet I have made up with the basics of shooting, firearms safety, PA state firearms laws, and other shooting information.

I figure that if I do all that, that they may become a regular customer while they are going to school here and return for things like cleaning supplies, accessories, etc. Many do, and many have done repeated transfers through me, always at the $20 per firearm rate.

This customer, after getting this gun, never came back to my shop for anything. Just one day he sent me an email telling me about his departure and him wanting to sell the gun before he left.

ANY gun dealer, ANY is going to make a "low ball" offer when someone asks them what they would pay for it. In many cases the seller has done homework and knows (or thinks they know) what a fair market price would be, maybe he did not. Before I made my offer I explained the different ways the gun could be sold to get him the most out of it. I told him up front that I couldn't offer him what he could get on the open market and offered to sell it for him and send him the money after taking my consignment fee. I told him that it might take some time to get it sold. He said no, he wanted to sell it as quickly as possible. That is when I offered what I did and he never blinked an eye and never made any counter offer. He said yes, I asked him if he wanted a check or cash and he said if I could pay cash he would like to do it that way.

I paid him, he was happy, we shook hands and he and his girlfriend left (btw driving a Range Rover).

Speaking for myself only, I do try to negotiate for services/goods at times and I am not surprised to have people negotiate with me. However, if I consider the cost of the service/goods to be fair, I'm not going to try to get a lower price, I realize they have to make a profit. Many of the foreign nationals try to barter with me with firearm accessories they have bought and no longer want or need and some times I will deal with them if I know I can sell the parts quickly and get the money to cover the original bill.

[Wheelguns 1961]

You sound like a good and caring business owner, Xring shooter. There is an X-ring shooters supply near my home in Delaware.

[Xringshooter]

Thank you for the kind words, I really do try to do right by my customers.

I think I remember that place from when I was stationed at Dover AFB and was shooting competitively with the Delaware Law Enforcement Marksmanship Association (DLEMA - pronounced dilemma). We shooters knew where just about all the gun shops were in DE. It's up near the university of DE isn't it, just off 273?

[Wheelguns 1961]

That is the one!

[RED BEAR]

glad to hear you help anyone that is allowed to buy a gun to do so. and as far as i am concerned once a gun leaves the store it ain't new anymore. you did the kid right by offering to buy the gun from him. after all you are a business and have to turn a profit to stay in business.

[Brad Phillips]

Sorry. My reading comprehension missed the transfer part. That is what I get for jumping without looking ?

I guess the $250 for an unfired G19 and extras threw me. Yes, once bought it would be used, I get that. But, an as new unfired G19 runs around 400 around here.

You do seem like a gun buyer who cares and is treating people right, again my apologies for jumping on you, Sincerly, Brad Phillips

[GhostHawk]

A few times in the last couple of years I had occaison to try to sell a gun, local gun shop, pawn shop, etc.

Normal seemed to be aprox 1/4 to 1/3 of what they figure they can sell the gun for.

So for a 600$ Win 94 from 1944 a 150$ offer was the best I got.

Seems to me you had a customer who wanted to sell in a hurry, and who took a fair offer.

If he'd wanted to post it on Gunbroker and do the work could he have doubled his money?

Possibly.

A fair deal is when both walk away with a smile on their face. Period.

Seemed to me like that happened here. No judgement required. Certainly won't get any from me.

I just wish you were closer, ND is a long way from Penn.

[NyFirefighter357]

A transfer runs $75-125 here.

[RED BEAR]

my god i changed gun stores because they went up to 35 dollars. the one i use now is $25 could get it done for $10 if i drove across town. there are some around ere that try to gouge you for basically doing nothing. i realize that they are a business and have to make a profit but there are limits.

[Wheelguns 1961]

I stopped going to one store because they wanted to charge me $50. I deal with a small lgs that appreciates my business, and always tries to give me a fair deal. Transfers are $20, but free if you buy from him.

[dougader]

So you never try to negotiate for services/goods you need? Or is it just irritating when someone does it to you?

Sometimes I do, yes, if there's clearly room to negotiate, but I don't try to scam more pennies off an already fair price. What gets me is how people who would never give you a discount think nothing of trying to get a discount from everyone else they run across.

I love how when it's someone else's job, it's "basically doing nothing" but your job demands the going rate or no deal. When my FFL expired I didn't renew it. I had enough of skin flints.

A dealer's paperwork isn't doing nothing. It has to be done right or you can lose your license or even be charged with a crime. Some BATFE agents have no sense of humor... and now with so-called Instant Check programs through NICS, etc, the process takes even longer. How about dealers just charge by the hour, especially when the backlog through NICS or the state police is running several hours.

I won't pay $50 for a transfer, either, but complaining or begging for a discount when it's already $10 - $25 is penny-ante BS IMO.

[Four-Sixty]

$20-$25 for a transfer is a bargain. After running a small business I decided I'd never do it again just because of all the time you spend on accounting and paying taxes.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

Alot of us on the non-owner end of the business forget about the time and money involved when we are not around......the kind of time that costs more money than it seems worth when we are buying or using services.

[Xringshooter]

Brad Phillips: apology accepted, no harm, no foul.

Ghosthawk: typically, most dealers will try to determine at what price can they sell the firearm the fastest. They then offer between 50%-75% of that value to the seller, the higher percentage if they know they can turn it very easily. But first they will always make a low ball offer to see what might happen. I know I can probably sell the Glock and it's accessories quickly for $450 (Buds sells them new, no extras, for $506), so my offer was to be $225-$360 so I offered on the low side of the scale.

I honestly do tell people who are looking to sell a firearm not to sell it to a gun dealer if they want to get the most out of it. If they want to sell it fast and don't worry about getting as much for it as they can, then I say sell it to a gun dealer. Or I tell them to put it on consignment at a gun shop. The seller, not the gun shop dictates the selling price and when sold the gun dealer collects his commission.

[TheGrimReaper]

Yes it was a good deal. Graduate took the deal and the dealer has enough room to make a profit and stay in business another day. It's the American way.

It gets my goat when people begrudge your right to make a profit while they do their jobs and get paid. I've had attorneys try to talk me into a lower price when I was selling them guns at - literally - $25 over my cost. NEW guns. So it's ok for them to bill out their clients at $250 - $400 an hour, but I can't get $25 for a special order and all the paperwork for my little business?

+1 takes turning a profit to keep the lights on. My only grip is when one guys like that then tries to sell more than MSRP on a USED gun. Difference in making a profit and trying to rip someone off.

[Handloader109]

I do laser engraving. Part of the business is work on firearms. I offer $20 transfers as there are several guys close by that are that or maybe $25. Lowball store went belly up this spring. He was a $20 store. But there are plenty more around.

Guys, $20 for at the least a half hour of your time WITH the customer is cheap. And that doens't include time it takes to log the gun into your book when you get it, log it out when sold, DO the above ACCURATELY including going over the stupid 4473 to insure no errors. And calling NICS to check. AT the minimum.

Those in the socialist states have even more work and yep, I'd be charging $35-50. OH, you want to buy and sell the gun directly to customer? That $20 for 4473 transfer is MORE than difference in dealer cost and Bud's price on a LOT of guns. (revolvers and real specials are different you might make a hundred, or maybe even a Benjamin plus a Jackson or two.) Margins are REAL thin. Internet is not a local firearms dealer's friend.

[FergusonTO35]

I don't see anything wrong with the 250.00 offer as long as there was no deception or arm twisting. A lot of places might even not want to buy it from a non-citizen.

[RED BEAR]

i would love to pay by the hour for filling out the form now waiting for the background check is a nother matter. i have never seen a dealer stand by the phone waiting for it to come back they continue to operate there business now that is doing nothing. like my old dealer tried to tell me that he had to have the forms checked 3 times . my reply was maybe he should hire people that have the ability to fill them out. the dealer across town that does transfers for 10 dollars admits it is money for nothing. pay by the hour you bet ya. exactly how long does it take the dealer to fill out the form because thats all they are doing.

[GhostHawk]

I have no problem paying 20$ for a transfer. I used to use a local pawn shop, had several issues, one gun that I never got because they never talked to the dealer. I dumped them, found a reputable guy that rents a small 8x10' suite in an office. He has another job, does this on the side. We communicate mostly via email. He lets me know when the gun comes in, offers a normally 3:30-5:00 time on a specific day. I either accept or we try again.

No issues, no complaints, no problems, no hassles. I know he spent most of 8 hours on the phone one day because he could not get through. I told him don't sweat it, go home, try tommorow. Let me know when it goes through and I can pick it up.

I have been known to tip him. Good service deserves a tip now and then.
I don't buy a lot, but I'm steady. Most guns when I buy it, I shoot him a heads up email. Give him what I have for information, an email or phone #. Within 12 hours he's made his handshake and the gun is in transit. Normal for him is 4-5 days from order to in my hands.

Buds gun shop may shave a day off that. I got one in 3.5 days once.

Not bad in my opinion. It lets me shop around, find the price I can live with.

Guy is Tom Challey of Fargo Arms if anyone is interested.
info@fargoarms.com
He also does trusts and NFA stuff.

I'll be a customer of tom's as long as he wants me.

[Ed K]

I don't see that the foreign national student did much worse than any US citizen would in my neck of the woods. I've seen an older gentleman trade in an unfired engraved high-grade 28 gauge Beretta O/U for a couple hundred bucks locally. My motto is don't buy guns on impulse or that you don't expect to hold for at least a decade.

[RED BEAR]

i have purchased guns and traded them in a few days later one that comes to mind was a Winchester trapper lever action in 45 colt bought it for the wife and she really didn't like it .it was a little small for me so back to the store it went i fired about 10 rounds through it and didn't get what i paid nor did i expect to i was friends with the dealer and he gave me more than i was expecting. i don't say they should do background checks for free i don't mind giving 20 to 25 dollars but that is about it one shop around here charges the difference between what you paid and what they sell the gun for. now that's a rip off. i have one that will do any number of guns on the same ticket for 25 dollars says its really not anymore trouble. how can one pearson do it for $10 dollars and tell me its money for nothing and others want $50 to as much as $100 dollars.

[Xringshooter]

Personally I can't understand why some dealers charge what they do for transferring a firearm, some justify it saying they lost out on a sale that they could have made XX dollars so they want to try to recoup that "lost" money. I don't think that helps their bottom line as people won't go back to that shop for anything (unless it's the only game in town).

I look at it as if I charge a fair price to transfer a gun, the customer remembers that and maybe return for other services I provide (gunsmithing, Cerakoting, etc.) If/when they return, they may buy more from me (accessories is where you make money, not on gun sales), or they will refer their friends to me (that's how I got to be the one to do transfers for the foreign nationals).

That said, here is what I have to do in PA to transfer a gun.

1. Get the 4473's from the ATF (time taken on line to order the forms)
2. When the forms come in I have to put a transaction number on the form, fill in my trade/corporate name and address, enter my FFL number. I do this ahead of time using stamps with this info on them. It still takes time to stamp 100 forms at a time.
3. Get the PSP form for handguns/SBR's/SBS's/Full autos, (time taken to order the forms)
4. When those forms arrive I have to enter my PA dealer number, name, address, phone. This is a triplicate form so the info has to be either hand written in or typed (I type because it looks neater).
5. When a buyer comes in, I have them inspect the gun he/she ordered to insure it is what was expected. Then answer any questions they might have about the gun (operation, accessories, best ammo to buy, etc.)
6. Get their drivers license, and for the foreign nationals get their passport, visa information, PA hunting license to make copies to be attached to the 4473 (don't forget copies cost money too)
7. Sit them down with the required forms to be filled out and explain the form(s), what to do, remind them to read each of the questions before answering, show them where to sign when done, etc.
8. If a handgun, I have a portion of the PSP form to fill out with the handgun information. This cannot be done in advance as the forms are numbered and they can get a bit nasty if you use them out of number/date sequence.
9. Retrieve the forms from the buyer and do the background check (here in PA if all goes well it takes 2 1/2 - 5 minutes to complete - other than for a foreign national, the PSP gets all their info and then calls the appropriate federal agency and then calls me back with the approval number - this can take 1/2 hr or 2 days, no rhyme or reason).
10. I fill in the rest of the information required on the forms
11. Answer any other last minute questions the buyer has (new foreign nationals want to know where they can go to shoot their new gun so I tell them the different places they can shoot, paid or free (the PA Game Commission shooting ranges are free for hunting license holders)
12. Collect my fee, give them their gun and say thanks for using me as your firearm transfer dealer.
13. Then every 2 weeks I have a form to fill out to send to the PSP with a check for the fees that they charge. Time involves filling out the form, getting the envelope ready to mail, filling out the check, driving to the PO (we don't get door to door mail delivery where I live) so cost of postage and gas.

So it does take time not only during the transfer but in preparation prior to and after the transfer.

I'm not complaining, I think $20 per firearm is a fair charge and I haven't had anyone complain, either to my face on behind my back (as far as I know). I get a lot of repeat business because I will work with my customers. I will take care of them if they can't make it during my normal shop hours by setting up a time that suits us both so they can get their gun(s) in a timely manner. I make some money and they are happy.

Now, that all said, I don't rely on the gun shop to pay the bills, I'm retired, my finances are pretty good so I can keep my costs down and the business gives me something to do and lets me buy the Rugers I collect (the Six series revolvers - Security Six, Police Service Six and Speed Six) and display/show them. I'm a member of the Ruger Owners and Collectors Society (ROCS) and the Ruger Collectors Association (RCA) and the wife and I enjoy going to the different gun shows that ROCS/RCA is invited to (like a lot of mini vacations).

[RED BEAR]

i really feel that 20 - 25 dollars is fair and where ever i do my transfers is where i try to buy my supplies powder primers cleaning supplies supplies for my shotgun reloading ect. and i don't mind if it is a little more than it sells for on line although lately i pay less than on line before they add the hazmat. and i will buy a gun from time to time for a reasonable price . but some local shops wanted from $150 to $200 more than i could get it on line. now thats to much .

[osteodoc08]

My LGS I’ve used for years went from a $20 transfer to a $50 transfer. Guy across town charges $5. Guess who I’ve been using.

[rintinglen]

Folks, those of you grousing over 25-30 dollar transfer fees would die here in California. Thankfully, I've only 16 months left on my sentence, then I am moving back to America.